OLAADEGBU:

We have Mr. Adam to thank for that.

Yet to suffer for someone's else sins is injustice, hence injustice comes prior to committing sin. And injustice is a form of suffering, so my question still stands. Why the suffering and injustice in the world, why do we suffer for Adam's sins?!

OLAADEGBU:

Foul! God has no beginning and has no end. He is the beginning and the end. The fact that you misunderstand the nature of God is the main bane of the atheists wannabes. You erroneously think that God is bound by the universe and that He is part of the chain effects within time, all of which require a cause. The truth is that God doesn't require a cause since He has always existed. God is beyond time and is not part of the universe. God is not a thing.

So, what do you guys mean when you say that man is created in Gods image?
How is it that Gods image is a "thing" and HE'S not?

What do y'all mean when you say that God feels love, hate, jealousy, happiness, regret and even fatigue? How can you know that he feels these "things", and yet believe he's "no thing"?

By the way, according to y'all, God is BOUND by a law that says he can't interfere with free will.
In other words, he is POWERLESS against this law.
He has no choice but to OBEY this law.
Just like every other thing in this universe obeys one law or the other!

You were trying to be smart with the word "thing" not knowing that anything spiritual CAN also be called a "thing"

Let me put it this way:
Is God "some thing" or "no thing"?

Kay 17:

Yet to suffer for someone's else sins is injustice, hence injustice comes prior to committing sin. And injustice is a form of suffering, so my question still stands. Why the suffering and injustice in the world, why do we suffer for Adam's sins?!

this is a very good question ma'am.

We were not at the garden of eden, we did not commit the original sin, so why do we suffer for it?
God will not hold a man in judgement and punish him for adams sin. He will punish him for his sins.
Of course, adams sin still affects us today. Peoples sins affect others. The reckless driver's sin causes others to die in a crash. I mean, we inherited the sin nature. We are by nature sinners, in a sinful world. Some people use this oppourtunity to be bitter against God or criticize adam, but what about our sin? What has this knowledge of the terrible thing sin can do to a man done to us? Has it made us to look for a salvation from it(Jesus Christ)? Or have we kept commiting sin that affects others also more than we can imagine. We were made imperfect, God made us perfect in Christ Jesus. The curse God placed on the earth was a result of sin. He drove adam out of his prescence because of sin, he pronounced death because of sin. How could man be trapped in this fallen nature forever?

Ma'am. The consequences of adams sin(which is simple reality, not complex stuff, sin is the simple problem that causes man suffering every day) should not make you bitter against God, but should make you appreciate and embrace Gods way of making us perfect again through Christ Jesus.

Joshthefirst: this is a very good question ma'am.

We were not at the garden of eden, we did not commit the original sin, so why do we suffer for it?
God will not hold a man in judgement and punish him for adams sin. He will punish him for his sins.
Of course, adams sin still affects us today. Peoples sins affect others. The reckless driver's sin causes others to die in a crash. I mean, we inherited the sin nature. We are by nature sinners, in a sinful world. Some people use this oppourtunity to be bitter against God or criticize adam, but what about our sin? What has this knowledge of the terrible thing sin can do to a man done to us? Has it made us to look for a salvation from it(Jesus Christ)? Or have we kept commiting sin that affects others also more than we can imagine. We were made imperfect, God made us perfect in Christ Jesus. The curse God placed on the earth was a result of sin. He drove adam out of his prescence because of sin, he pronounced death because of sin. How could man be trapped in this fallen nature forever?

Ma'am. The consequences of adams sin(which is simple reality, not complex stuff, sin is the simple problem that causes man suffering every day) should not make you bitter against God, but should make you appreciate and embrace Gods way of making us perfect again through Christ Jesus.

Put yourself in the shoes of a one year old in war ravaged area, she is starved, deprived of parental care and love, and close to death. Now you have provided your answer for the cause of suffering, saying it is a curse from God against Adam and his offsprings, and that God also made subsequent Adams imperfect.

The child's condition is solely as a result of God's curse, she suffers physical pain as well as injustice, which she does not deserve. She is at the mercy of wicked warmonging dictators and mass killers.

So I will recouch my question, why is there injustice?

Kay 17:

Put yourself in the shoes of a one year old in war ravaged area, she is starved, deprived of parental care and love, and close to death. Now you have provided your answer for the cause of suffering, saying it is a curse from God against Adam and his offsprings, and that God also made subsequent Adams imperfect.

The child's condition is solely as a result of God's curse, she suffers physical pain as well as injustice, which she does not deserve. She is at the mercy of wicked warmonging dictators and mass killers.

So I will recouch my question, why is there injustice?

no ma'am, this is Gods curse:

He cursed the serpent and proclaimed mans salvation.

He cursed womankind to have sorrow in childbirth.

He cursed the ground because of man, and made him reap in sorrow and die.

These curses God put because of mans sin, but man didn't look for Gods ways of salvation.
Man instead became exceedingly sinful and commited murder, lacked love and became greedy and covetuous and started wars. All we see is because of sin, not God. Gods duty is to punish sin, this he will do. And cause repentance and salvation, and a change in mans nature. This he has done.

That one year old did not suffer because of God's curse, its because of mans sin

OLAADEGBU:

Foul! God has no beginning and has no end. He is the beginning and the end. The fact that you misunderstand the nature of God is the main bane of the atheists wannabes. You erroneously think that God is bound by the universe and that He is part of the chain effects within time, all of which require a cause. The truth is that God doesn't require a cause since He has always existed. God is beyond time and is not part of the universe. God is not a thing.

GOD HAS ALWAYS Existed therefore IT(no gender) does not need to be CAUSeD.THE EARTH/UNIVERSE HAS Always EXISTED thereFORE IT(No gender) does not need to be CAUSED.

Joshthefirst: no ma'am, this is Gods curse:

He cursed the serpent and proclaimed mans salvation.

He cursed womankind to have sorrow in childbirth.

He cursed the ground because of man, and made him reap in sorrow and die.

These curses God put because of mans sin, but man didn't look for Gods ways of salvation.
Man instead became exceedingly sinful and commited murder, lacked love and became greedy and covetuous and started wars. All we see is because of sin, not God. Gods duty is to punish sin, this he will do. And cause repentance and salvation, and a change in mans nature. This he has done.

That one year old did not suffer because of God's curse, its because of mans sin

. AN ALL KNOWING GOD CURSE the whole world For the disobedience of two individual DESPITE KNOWIng the Future IMPLICATION WHICH WILL REQUIRE IT TO SEND HIMSELF OR iT$ ONLY BEGOTTEN SON JESUS(GOD) TO COMMIT ASSISTED SUICIDE TO mitigate THE FIRST CURSE. GODS FOOLISHNESS IS BETTER THAN THIEST WISDOM

Joshthefirst: no ma'am, this is Gods curse:

He cursed the serpent and proclaimed mans salvation.

He cursed womankind to have sorrow in childbirth.

He cursed the ground because of man, and made him reap in sorrow and die.

These curses God put because of mans sin, but man didn't look for Gods ways of salvation.
Man instead became exceedingly sinful and commited murder, lacked love and became greedy and covetuous and started wars. All we see is because of sin, not God. Gods duty is to punish sin, this he will do. And cause repentance and salvation, and a change in mans nature. This he has done.

That one year old did not suffer because of God's curse, its because of mans sin

Assuming you answered Job of the Bible in this same way, "why am I suffering", do you think Job would be satisfied that he is condemned for Adam's sins or the sins of others?! Rather he would further ask "why the injustice of suffering for the sins of others" which is a form of Suffering!

Kay 17:

Assuming you answered Job of the Bible in this same way, "why am I suffering", do you think Job would be satisfied that he is condemned for Adam's sins or the sins of others?! Rather he would further ask "why the injustice of suffering for the sins of others" which is a form of Suffering!

job's case is unique on its own.

Suffering for the sins of others is injustice? Think carefully. A pregnant mother who takes drugs causes suffering on her infant, who is born with the same drug addictions. Our different sins affect others in ways we cannot even imagine.

It affected the innocent son of God in the worst way. He was condemned and killed for our sins.

Sin affects others. Its a disease. Its contagious.
Injustice is continuing in sin and not looking for salvation from it.

Femmymata2: . AN ALL KNOWING GOD CURSE the whole world For the disobedience of two individual DESPITE KNOWIng the Future IMPLICATION WHICH WILL REQUIRE IT TO SEND HIMSELF OR iT$ ONLY BEGOTTEN SON JESUS(GOD) TO COMMIT ASSISTED SUICIDE TO mitigate THE FIRST CURSE. GODS FOOLISHNESS IS BETTER THAN THIEST WISDOM

an allknowing God who is a judge cursed the earth and man because of sin. Sin brought suffering and death.

Man continues in sin. He will bring judgement once more.
But he sent his son to be a substitute to judgement and wrath to those who accept him.

Why is Job's case different?!

Didn't he suffer from the theft, misfortune, diseases, sinful wife, sinful friends? Why didn't you simply say adam's sins made job suffer, just as an innocent foetus.

An innocent child suffers from the hand of the mother doesn't deserve it because he suffers from forces beyond his control.

You don't seem to appreciate the wide ranging effects of suffering, I believe Suffering is a more fundamental issue than sin, because undeservedly suffering from sin is suffering too.

^^

You could visit every orphanage, hospital, poverty ridden cities, and tell the sufferers that their sufferings are well deserved, that they are not suffering from injustice. Tell raped women, that they are not unjustly raped, that they deserved it and shouldn't bother going to man made courts to find FALSE justice.

I purposely tried to ignite indignation, because indignation only righteously arises from injustice.

Kay 17: Why is Job's case different?!

Didn't he suffer from the theft, misfortune, diseases, sinful wife, sinful friends? Why didn't you simply say adam's sins made job suffer, just as an innocent foetus.

An innocent child suffers from the hand of the mother doesn't deserve it because he suffers from forces beyond his control.

You don't seem to appreciate the wide ranging effects of suffering, I believe Suffering is a more fundamental issue than sin, because undeservedly suffering from sin is suffering too.

we can discuss job in another thread.

I like the way you think.
I understand the wide range of suffering like you do.

We all suffer because of adams sin. And also because of our sins. But we are being decieved if we blame Gods judgement of sin and don't look toward our own sins ourselves. The innocent child suffers and he doesn't deserve it. Its beyond his control. But it is not beyond his mothers control. She decides the fate of her baby. And she chose to make him suffer.

I believe sin was what brought about suffering.

Adam was given a responsibility, just as the mother is given a responsibility to care for her child. But adam jeopardized mans future by engaging in sin, which brought about suffering. Just like that mother.

But we cannot term ourselves as innocent children, because we have also brought about suffering on others because of our sins too. Its like a person with an addiction. He bemoans his predicament, but instead of seeking a way of freedom, he sinks deeper into his addiction because of the temporal pleasure it brings.

Suffering and sin is very fundamental. That's why people don't like the subject when its brought up. Its because its not just adam that is guilty, we're all guilty. Adam started first sin, and we continued. We lie and steal and hate and profane. The suffering in the world has immensely increased because of us. But when the solution is proffered, men spite and reject. Could it be that they enjoy sin?

You didn't discuss Job at all and the examples I raised, including that of rape.

If a baby is deformed and dies painful as a result of the deformity caused by its mother's addictions, there is no sin of the Baby to justify its suffering, so he suffered for no reason other than God chose it suffer.

So it throws out your argument that the sins of others on us is justified since others suffer from our sins.

Kay 17: You didn't discuss Job at all and the examples I raised, including that of rape.

If a baby is deformed and dies painful as a result of the deformity caused by its mother's addictions, there is no sin of the Baby to justify its suffering, so he suffered for no reason other than God chose it suffer.

he suffered for no other reason than his mother chose him to suffer.

Kay 17: So it throws out your argument that the sins of others on us is justified since others suffer from our sins.

I never said the sins of others on us is justified. I said we cannot blame others(like adam) completely for our suffering when we actually sin and cause others suffering ourselves.

Kay 17:

Ola clearly from your post, God is the Cause of the Suffferings and Evils in the World! God cursed and destroyed earth based on the disobedience of one man, why should we believe his promises?! Why accept his campaigns for a greener better future?!

On the transgression of one man, he condemned the world and the unborn. Justice indeed!

It is similar to bargaining with the devil!

Kay 17:

Yet to suffer for someone's else sins is injustice, hence injustice comes prior to committing sin. And injustice is a form of suffering, so my question still stands. Why the suffering and injustice in the world, why do we suffer for Adam's sins?!

Typical atheists' questions again.

OLAADEGBU:

Typical questions of atheist wannabes.

"Why would a perfect God make a Hell in the first place? Why are His creations imperfect unless He deliberately made them so? Why make rules that are pretty much impossible to live up to then punish the creations for being simply the way they were 'created'? If there is a God [He] is not the loving creator that most christians say they believe in, it is at best a tinkerer, a trickster and a child who breaks his toys when he does not get his own way." Patricia Bentley-Ivens

If a dying patient turns off his own oxygen hose he shouldn't complain that he can't breathe. The Book of Genesis tells us that God made everything "very good" in the beginning, but sin brought about suffering, pain, disease and death in what is called a "fallen Creation." But the dying atheist denies that Genesis chapter one is true (that we live in a "fallen creation" because of sin), and so he bitterly complains about God allowing suffering, pain, disease and death. Hell is God's prison for guilty criminals. Calling Him childish names will not save you from His Justice, but repentance and faith in Jesus will. See www.needGod.com

david_hume:

So, what do you guys mean when you say that man is created in Gods image?
How is it that Gods image is a "thing" and HE'S not?

What do y'all mean when you say that God feels love, hate, jealousy, happiness, regret and even fatigue? How can you know that he feels these "things", and yet believe he's "no thing"?

Feminists bristle at the Bible's statement that God made man in His image. This verse doesn't mean that God is a man, or that He looks like man (see John 4:24). It means that when God made man and woman, He endowed them with a mind, emotions, and will. Humans are rational, moral beings with an inherent God-consciousness. However, in revealing Himself to mankind, God describes Himself in the male gender using terms such as Father, Son, Bridegroom, etc. Those who consider God to be female and call Him "Mother" are engaging in idolatry. To change who God has revealed Himself to be is to create a god in their own image.

Watch -> www.EvolutionVsGod.com

david_hume:

By the way, according to y'all, God is BOUND by a law that says he can't interfere with free will.
In other words, he is POWERLESS against this law.
He has no choice but to OBEY this law.
Just like every other thing in this universe obeys one law or the other!

The Omnipotent God is a gentleman who chooses not to infringe on human's free will that is why He created us in His own image. The Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient God upholds the entire universe by His power. He is beyond time and is not bound by the laws of the universe.

david_hume:

You were trying to be smart with the word "thing" not knowing that anything spiritual CAN also be called a "thing"

That is an epic fail. Anything spiritual is not God.

david_hume:

Let me put it this way:
Is God "some thing" or "no thing"?

God is not a "thing."

Here's another test for you crack:

Godisnowhere

Femmymata2:

GOD HAS ALWAYS Existed therefore IT(no gender) does not need to be CAUSeD.THE EARTH/UNIVERSE HAS Always EXISTED thereFORE IT(No gender) does not need to be CAUSED.

Wrong. God described Himself as a man and the earth/universe has not always existed, it had a beginning, it was caused, created by God. God has always existed, is beyond time and is not part of the physical universe. God is a Spirit, not a sequence of energetic reactions and so the laws which place a finite limit on the age of the universe does not apply to God.

OLAADEGBU:

Imagine a place on the earth that never saw the sun. Day in, day out, it is covered with thick clouds. From the time a person was born until the time he died he never saw even a glimpse of the sun. Suppose you visited this place and tried to convince the inhabitants of the reality, the beauty, and the power of the sun. "Where I come from," you say, "a huge yellow ball rises up over the sea each day and floats across the sky, no strings attached, giving warmth and light to those upon the earth. The reason you don't experience it is because you are cut off from it by the clouds." Although the thought may seem fantastic to those people, the fact that they don’t believe in it does not change the reality that it exists.

They almost saw the light.

Olaadegbu, you didn't address my concern for suffering.

What do you have to say about Job's sufferings?

OLAADEGBU:

Wrong. God described Himself as a man and the earth/universe has not always existed, it had a beginning, it was caused, created by God. God has always existed, is beyond time and is not part of the physical universe. God is a Spirit, not a sequence of energetic reactions and so the laws which place a finite limit on the age of the universe does not apply to God.

Thanks for the reply sir. Could we humans establish the fact that the EARTH/UNIVERSE had a beginning...

Femmymata2:

Thanks for the reply sir. Could we humans establish the fact that the EARTH/UNIVERSE had a beginning...

Your answer can be found on the second possibility in the reposted post below. The earth/universe was not eternal it had a beginning as scientifically proven in the quote below.

OLAADEGBU:

There is no assumption in my claim that the God almighty created all things and I can use the laws of logic and the laws of science to prove this:

There are only three possibilities from where the universe can come from. By way of elimination we will arrive at the scientific evidence of the origin of the universe which took just 6 days.

(1). The universe created itself; or

(2). The universe has always existed, or

(3). The universe was created.

1. The universe created itself:

Can something create itself? Can nothing create something? The answer to these is an absolute No. We all know that something cannot create itself and nothing can't create something. From Latin we have the phrase "ex nihilo, nihil fit" meaning "from nothing, nothing comes." It also violates the law of cause and effect, that says for every effect there must be a cause. The effect can't be greater than the cause and nothing cannot be greater than something. Therefore, based on the laws of science and logic, the universe couldn't have created itself. That leaves us with options 2 and 3.

2. The univese has always existed:

Lets go to the 2nd law of thermodynamics that basically teaches that "the whole universe is losing usable energy for doing usable work." This means that the usable energy in this universe is wearing down. The universe as a whole is losing energy. In other words, molecules as a whole are slowing down.

Therefore, if this universe was eternal we will be in what is called a "virtual heat death." This means that there will be virtually no molecular movement. Everything would have lost its available heat energy for doing work. Therefore, the universe cannot be eternal, it must have had a beginning. The theory that the universe has always existed or is eternal has to be false based on the law of science and logic, another speculation gone with the air. This leaves us with only one possibility based on science. Which is that:

3. The universe was created:

"In the Beginning God created the heaven and the earth." -- Genesis 1:1

Science confirms the biblical verse that in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth as we have just shown. With this verse we see that God is outside time. He is eternal, with no beginning or end. He also knows all things, being infinitely intelligent. To recognise His handiwork, you should be able to know how to recognise the evidence of the works of His intelligence. This is simple.

When I look at a building, how do I know that there was a builder? I can't see him, hear him, touch, smell or taste him. The evidence of a builder is the building I'm looking at. In other words, the building is the proof positive that there was a builder. The building is the product of the intelligence of the builder. Living things are also evidence of design. Wouldn't it be logical to assume that if man's highly intelligent brain designed the computer, then the human brain was also the product of design?

There is nothing illogical or unscientific about an Eternal Being who has always existed. Nobody created the infinite God. He is the Self-Existent One, the great "I AM THAT I AM" of the Bible. He is outside time because He created time. Everything that has a beginning requires a cause. The universe has a beginning and thus requires a cause. But the almighty God has no beginning since He is beyond time. Therefore, the almighty God does not need a cause.

See -> www.needGod.com <-- Take the test!

Atheism. The anti God religion.

On my next bone of contention: Sin is an act of disobedience to God either of a positive command (do this) or prohibitive command (don't do this). Ordinarily sins are not harmful in the sense that the act itself and by itself inflict harm nor equate to Evil.

For example, had Abraham refused to sacrifice his son Isaac, he would have merely sinned and not committed an evil.

Kay 17:

On my next bone of contention: Sin is an act of disobedience to God either of a positive command (do this) or prohibitive command (don't do this). Ordinarily sins are not harmful in the sense that the act itself and by itself inflict harm nor equate to Evil.

For example, had Abraham refused to sacrifice his son Isaac, he would have merely sinned and not committed an evil.

Sin is transgression of God's Law. It's the Bible word for lying, stealing, lusting, hatred, murder, adultery, etc. Have you sinned against God's commandment? take the test listed on www.NeedGod.com and see whether you've committed evil acts or sinned.

Kay 17:

Olaadegbu, you didn't address my concern for suffering.

What do you have to say about Job's sufferings?

When a natural tragedy happens like it happened to Job, you skeptics call it "an act of God" that you don't want to believe exist. Instead of you saying that we live in a fallen creation and that suffering and tragedies happen as a direct result of our sin, you blame God. Christians don't do that. We, like Job would rather justify a holy God than sinful man.

OLAADEGBU:

When a natural tragedy happens like it happened to Job, you skeptics call it "an act of God" that you don't want to believe exist. Instead of you saying that we live in a fallen creation and that suffering and tragedies happen as a direct result of our sin, you blame God. Christians don't do that. We, like Job would rather justify a holy God than sinful man.

Job did not suffer from the punishments of sin, and God replied Job as regards his suffering, saying: HE is simply GOD. Not because job or his sons were sinners.

Kay 17:

Job did not suffer from the punishments of sin, and God replied Job as regards his suffering, saying: HE is simply GOD. Not because job or his sons were sinners.

Job did. He was afraid anytime his sons and daughters held parties.He always wake up in the morning to offer sacrifices peradventure they have sinned against God. That was his thought. Fear itself is SIN.

Kay 17:

Job did not suffer from the punishments of sin, and God replied Job as regards his suffering, saying: HE is simply GOD. Not because job or his sons were sinners.

God controls everything that happens on earth and in the universe. He is the creator of all things and can cause the wind to cease. From the book of Genesis we know that God created everything perfectly. Suffering from the punishment of sin such as death, divorce, earthquakes, floods, sicknesses and diseases and all evil things in the world are all as a result of sin. It's not God's fault that these things happen, it is because of sin. Sin came into the world through Adam's choice to disobey God, we all sin because of Adam. God allows these things to show us how much we need Him, without His grace, mercy and protection we will be helpless.

We are all sinners and sin is the most terrible thing in our lives, even more terrible than the disasters that happens in the world. Because our sin against God, sufferings and disasters happen in the world just as Adam who is the first person to bring sin into the world has done. God sent the last Adam, Jesus who was punished in our place so that we could be forgiven. Those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ will one day live in a place where there will be no more sufferings for all eternity.

The controversial question of the day:

Bidam: Job did. He was afraid anytime his sons and daughters held parties.He always wake up in the morning to offer sacrifices peradventure they have sinned against God. That was his thought. Fear itself is SIN.

So you believe Job was a sinner, and that was the cause for his sufferings?

If you read the Book of Job carefully, you would come across job's friends who ostensibly went to console him. They saw Job's sufferings was so great, they sat in silence and torn clothings for 7 days!

However they laid down arguments that Job was an evil man, a sinner; just as you argue now. They accused Job of wrongdoing, of numerous sins of pride and greed. Job sad, rightly observed even evil men grow wealthy and old, die in old age and have many children!

Eventually God replies in a whirlwind, and faults your argument which is similar to Job's friends'

God said he created heaven and earth, that he created the ostrich to be faster than horses, yet daft and stupid. That he, God created and feed predators, that created the earth and everything.

God clearly answered that Job was not punished for his sins nor Adam's sins.

Pls read the Book of Job carefully.

Kay 17:

So you believe Job was a sinner, and that was the cause for his sufferings?

If you read the Book of Job carefully, you would come across job's friends who ostensibly went to console him. They saw Job's sufferings was so great, they sat in silence and torn clothings for 7 days!

However they laid down arguments that Job was an evil man, a sinner; just as you argue now. They accused Job of wrongdoing, of numerous sins of pride and greed. Job sad, rightly observed even evil men grow wealthy and old, die in old age and have many children!

Eventually God replies in a whirlwind, and faults your argument which is similar to Job's friends'

God said he created heaven and earth, that he created the ostrich to be faster than horses, yet daft and stupid. That he, God created and feed predators, that created the earth and everything.

God clearly answered that Job was not punished for his sins nor Adam's sins.

Pls read the Book of Job carefully.

First,do you agree that fear itself is a sin?