.

plaetton:

Your logic amazes me. I dont know how someone can contradict himself in two sentences.

Indeed there is no case for atheism.
Thank you very much for pointing it out. I hope that Italo is taking note.

There is no case for atheism. No atheist has ever pretended otherwise.
Atheism is not a philosophical proposition.

Secondly, You are also very very correct that atheists make their case from whatever the theist says.
Bingo!!
I could not have said it better myself.

I am glad that you realize that atheism is simply a response to theism. A repudiation of the belief in god.
So we can only make our case from whatever the theists says.

An atheist owes absolutely no explanation. The only relevant question an atheist asks is: Where is god? Show me the proof for god.
In the glaring absence of such evidence, we no choice other than to assume that there is no god.

Why make are theists too busy wasting precious time criticising atheists when they could very well use that time to put show god or put forward evidence for the existence of god.

Calling someone irrational for rejecting what have, over the past 6000yrs of recorded human history. woefully failed to prove, is cognitive dissonance, a mild form of insanity.

Let's leave the long talk. I am not in the mood for sermons.
Again, I didn't call anyone irrational. Like I responded to Alfa, I am at the point of this discourse, a rational skeptic looking for reasons to accept what you are not telling me.
'Is atheism rational?', is all I am asking.

plaetton:

Yes. as far we have seen so far.
There is no evidence of a creator so far.
I remain open to the possibility of being proven wrong when ever you have the evidence..

Well, my good friend, that simply means "whenever I am able to show you everything around you in your life, which you have already seen since you were born and up till this day."

To show, you, in other words, the evidence that you already have, the evidence that you still see in every moment of passing time, and even the evidence that you yourself as a sentient being are.

Gonna have to wait quite a while for that one, sire.

Evil Brain:
Any oyimbo that doesn't believe the Nigerian prince email in his box is irrational. After all, he doesn't have any proof the the sender isn't a Nigerian prince, trying to move $10billion dollars. out of the country and into your account (as long as you pay a small advance fee to show youre trustworthy. If you can't prove that Im not a real Nigerian prince, then why don't you believe? Why are you being so irrational?

Frankly speaking, I don't get the point of the above. You picked a portion of my post, which is:
'Reyginus: Lol. You even fail to understand that refusing to believe that any thing is true is already a belief', and you are responding with the above.
What my post suggested was simply, refusing to take a position on anything is already taking a position. I wonder how it relates with what you are saying. Please show me how.

Evil Brain:
The reason we are rejecting the belief is that there is no evidence for it. In fact, nobody has even managed to come up with a convincing philosophical argument for the existence of God. All you can do is insist that we take your word for it. Or believe some book (which one? there's so many). The only answer you're going to get from atheists is "show us some proof or stop wasting our time."

This is still the same thing I am saying. You don't say a thing is false because you don't see the evidence presented, but because you have an evidence why it is not true. All I am asking is that atheist evidence.

Evil Brain:
See, your problem is you can't rid your mind of the fundamental assumption that the judeochristan god exists. And make no mistake, it is an assumption since you clearly have no proof. If only you could put aside all the "knowledge" you've been indoctrinated with and honestly ask yourself "Is there a God?", "Can there be more than one?" "What would such a being look or behave?" "Is there any way to prove it exists?"

Lol. How does this even relates to what I am talking about?

Evil Brain:
If you could reason this stuff out without falling back on your preconceptions, you'd get why we atheists are so skeptical of religion. Then maybe you could explain it to italo and save the rest of us some time.

How can you be so sure that I haven't reasoned these things out? You see, somehow the same thing you accuse me of doing without questioning, you also, I will assume is doing the same. What if I told you that you didn't reason your atheist position properly, that if you did, you will accept these things you see untrue.

Deep Sight:

Well, my good friend, that simply means "whenever I am able to show you everything around you in your life, which you have already seen since you were born and up till this day."

To show, you, in other words, the evidence that you already have, the evidence that you still see in every moment of passing time, and even the evidence that you yourself as a sentient being are.

Gonna have to wait quite a while for that one, sire.

If you are seeing something that I and many others do not, does that thing exist to all?
The fact that I do not see it means that whatever you think you are seeing is ambigous , to say the least, fuzzy, foggy and not clearly discernable to all.
In which case, the onus clearly falls on you to show clearer and more discernable proof.

Deep Sight:

As I explained in this post, there is a burden of proof on anyone disputing a default position.

https://www.nairaland.com/808965/atheism-revisiting-burden-proof/2#9684645

- - - even where the default position is wrong; e.g: the case of Galileo.

But the proof in the case of god is very simple.

No one has seen him.
No space probe or earthly instrument has detected him.

Even if his existence was beyond instrumental detection, then all humans would naturally , clearly and unabmigously and intuited him in the same manner everyday.
There should no hide and seek.

What other proof, except for his continued absence is needed?

Logicboy03:



What if this particular universe came from another universe which was eternal?

That would fit as God. And on and on, mutatis mutandis.

Why is this a less valid hypothesis than a god creating the universe?

Because the real question is about the origin of any universe, wheresoever, whensoever and whatsoever.

You theists argue God's existence with the certainty of a mad man who is 100% sure that he is sane.

Only mad men see houses and seek to argue against the existence of their builders.

Not one single shred of God.

Of course, none at all, except everything around you which you have ever seen and known since you were born. I would have thought that's quite a lot.

It amazes me how people can behold an entire cosmos and still scream - "not one shred of evidence! not a single shred!"

Sir, please, tell your God that he is a loner and he will die a loner....if he exists, he should grow up......hide and seek are for children

I'm afraid my conveying your message will probably be useless because you will want to sit and have a drink with God, before you hold that God exists. I am afraid you will have to look deep into your very own being to see where God sits, and perhaps be shocked that you have been experiencing the reality of God all your life - and that you have never lived outside that reality....

plaetton:

But the proof in the case of god is very simple.

No one has seen him.

God is not a man, and so he is not to be seen as some physical creature stalking around somewhere.

However, in being alive and interacting with Life and the World, you do see God everyday.

No space probe or earthly instrument has detected him.

God is not a celestial body that you can point out, and say, Eureka.

Even if his existence was beyond instrumental detection, then all humans would naturally , clearly and unabmigously and intuited him in the same manner everyday.

And this is exactly what has happened throughout human history.

Any confusion that there is has only arisen within the atheistic mind, which seeks to deny that which has been obvious - glaring even - to mankind throughout history.

plaetton:

If you are seeing something that I and many others do not, does that thing exist to all?
The fact that I do not see it means that whatever you think you are seeing is ambigous , to say the least, fuzzy, foggy and not clearly discernable to all.
In which case, the onus clearly falls on you to show clearer and more discernable proof.

Well start by looking behind your eyes.

Do this everyday please. You will see it.

Is it okay to make a categorical claim without empirical evidence of it - only on the lack of evidence to the contrary?

What do Atheists say?

Yes or no?

^^^Lol. One thing most atheists here is not good at is answering questions.

Reyginus: ^^^Lol. One thing most atheists here is not good at is answering questions.

Lol...

Mazaje will come and answer: "gods are man-made," "There are many gods."

As if he doesnt read questions.

I think he has essentially the same answer to every question.

Deep Sight:

Well start by looking behind your eyes.

Do this everyday please. You will see it.

Deep. seems like you ve changed your mind.

is philoversity discussion still on?

Deep Sight:

Well start by looking behind your eyes.

Do this everyday please. You will see it.

Oh please.

Of course I can see god if I look between my eyes. In fact, I can pretty much see anything I want to see.

I could could lock myself inside a closet, close my eyes and conjour up any images I want.
How does that prove anything?.

You keep saying the same thing over and over again, but when I put same to you in my own words, you reject them.

Everything you say points you to the obvious fact that you created god in your mind simply to answer your own question of origin.

Deep Sight:

God is not a man, and so he is not to be seen as some physical creature stalking around somewhere.

However, in being alive and interacting with Life and the World, you do see God everyday.



God is not a celestial body that you can point out, and say, Eureka.



And this is exactly what has happened throughout human history.

Any confusion that there is has only arisen within the atheistic mind, which seeks to deny that which has been obvious - glaring even - to mankind throughout history.

Oxygen is not a man, but it interacts with all life.
So, is oxygen god?

Throughout human history , men have worshipped snakes, crocodiles, the sun, the moon, oceans, fires, thunder and lightening, dragons, cats, etc. as god.
You name it, it has been worshipped as god.

So what what do we learn from ancient men?
That god really exists, but it's just human frailty that misunderstands him?
C'mon man, give me a break.

Op, look at my sig then please explain to me how accepting (or believing) the claim that a babalawo can make me faster than ussein bolt is rational. That is as ridiculous as the claims you make, and of course, backed with just as much evidence (or even less, babalawos exist); non.

Note, you cannot do anything about what you believe, but if you think that a framework that accepts such claims as true is irrational, despite what physics (and simple common sense) have to say about that, then it's not hard to see why you're an xtian.

As for atheists that claim god(s) do not exist (like me, as far as those of yahweh and co are concerned), or more accurately that the odds of their existing are so low they are essentially negligible, well yes, it's a bit like taking a page of your books, except being a hell of a lot more rational in any sane framework.

For instance, you claim your god omniscient, and assert the claim true and infallible (despite the fact that you readily admit humans are fallible, thereby accepting that you could be wrong, but we'll be ignoring that ,for now...), but exactly how can he ascertain that? How can he know something he doesn't know? How does he know there isn't another truly 'omnipotent' god (assuming that bit of nonsense was possible) trolling him for mysteriousnessesses reasons? Well, apparently he cannot see any other gods around, so he goes around asserting he's the one true god. If he really cannot find another god around and he really does have his magical omnipotentness available, then he's simply going with the evidence. He's done all the tests and didn't discover another omnixx around, so for all practical purposes he can assume, or even assert, he's the only omnixx god around, and he would be rational in assuming so. The evidence would be backing him up.

That's what I'm doing as well, considering the absurd, puerile, illogical nonsense you try to pass out as evidence. Mostly a 2000 year old book with claims of walking on water, talking donkeys, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, angry and jealous; all nonsense. Considering physics and common sense, I can categorically tell you that such could not exist. The evidence states that it's impossible for a man to resurrect after 3 days in a cave, or walk on water, or talking snakes, or ribs, etc etc etc. I can tell you such does not, and could not, exist. If you think that line of reasoning irrational, then well, again, easy seeing why you're xtian.

Deep Sight:

Well, my good friend, that simply means "whenever I am able to show you everything around you in your life, which you have already seen since you were born and up till this day."

To show, you, in other words, the evidence that you already have, the evidence that you still see in every moment of passing time, and even the evidence that you yourself as a sentient being are.

Gonna have to wait quite a while for that one, sire.

I'm telling you sir. Here's what the bible that they mock says about them
Romans 1:
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Its amazing this 'foolish' book spoke about this foolish men and how they insult and demean themselves as they try to remove the creator from his natural place in thought and imagination. How blind to life's beauty they have become. How blind to reality.

I speak of what I have seen and heard. And God I know bears me witness. My life and words bear witness. Creation itself and Gods powerful signs bear witness of the mighty hand of God.

plaetton:

Oxygen is not a man, but it interacts with all life.
So, is oxygen god?

Throughout human history , men have worshipped snakes, crocodiles, the sun, the moon, oceans, fires, thunder and lightening, dragons, cats, etc. as god.
You name it, it has been worshipped as god.

So what what do we learn from ancient men?
That god really exists, but it's just human frailty that misunderstands him?
C'mon man, give me a break.

^^^ If you really think about it, it is you who needs to give the whole matter a break... since God does not exist... why bother... there must be a million more fulfilling things to do that obsess with deluded theists on a forum, no?

Just forget the issue, abandon it completely, it is of no use to your life - only urge people against intolerance wherever you see it being displayed - - - - that's more than enough.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
......................But o no, the quiet knowing prickling inside of you won't let it go, will it?

Because, like all mankind, it knows better.

Good evening, dear friend.

Deep Sight:

[size=18pt]
I'm afraid my conveying your message will probably be useless because you will want to sit and have a drink with God, before you hold that God exists. I am afraid you will have to look deep into your very own being to see where God sits, and perhaps be shocked that you have been experiencing the reality of God all your life - and that you have never lived outside that reality....[/size]

You can replace "God" in the above quote with "Witchcraft"


In fact, people who claim to do magic make the exact same argument. The same argument was made in Harry Potter and even in the sorcerer's apprentice

-magic is all around you.



BULLSHEIT

Joshthefirst: I'm telling you sir. Here's what the bible that they mock says about them
Romans 1:
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Its amazing this 'foolish' book spoke about this foolish men and how they insult and demean themselves as they try to remove the creator from his natural place in thought and imagination. How blind to life's beauty they have become. How blind to reality.

I speak of what I have seen and heard. And God I know bears me witness. My life and words bear witness. Creation itself and Gods powerful signs bear witness of the mighty hand of God.

They bear witness indeed, my brother, to all but the willfully blind.

This is not a matter that anyone should need another to convince him of. Each will speak it himself in the fullness of time. For it is who and what we are. Shalom.

Logicboy03:

You can replace "God" in the above quote with "Witchcraft"


In fact, people who claim to do magic make the exact same argument. The same argument was made in Harry Potter and even in the sorcerer's apprentice

-magic is all around you.



BULLSHEIT

Of course, magic is all around you my brother - Life is utterly and fearfully magical in its every and even slightest particular.

It is well my brother. Do not accept anything that does not make sense to you. Live your life according to your conscience. You will find your path. Blessings.

Deep Sight:

They bear witness indeed, my brother, to all but the willfully blind.

This is not a matter that anyone should need another to convince him of. Each will speak it himself in the fullness of time. For it is who and what we are. Shalom.

You and muskeeto share the same political psychopathy. You guys will ally with anyone to further your propaganda and goals


When did you start agreeing with the bible on atheists/disbelievers?

Logicboy03:


You and muskeeto share the same political psychopathy. You guys will ally with anyone to further your propaganda and goals


When did you start agreeing with the bible on atheists/disbelievers?

we might not agree on everything, but that does not mean we should ignore each other and be enemies. Smh. What an angry and troubled human being.

Deep Sight:

^^^ If you really think about it, it is you who needs to give the whole matter a break... since God does not exist... why bother... there must be a million more fulfilling things to do that obsess with deluded theists on a forum, no?

Just forget the issue, abandon it completely, it is of no use to your life - only urge people against intolerance wherever you see it being displayed - - - - that's more than enough.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
......................But o no, the quiet knowing prickling inside of you won't let it go, will it?

Because, like all mankind, it knows better.

Good evening, dear friend.

"Our hearts are restless until they rest in God."--St. Augustine.

@ wiegraf,

As usual, you dont know the topic of discussion.

italo: Is it okay to make a categorical claim without empirical evidence of it - only on the lack of evidence to the contrary?

What do Atheists say?

Yes or no?

You're the one who's making the categorical claim that your flying judeochristan monster exists. For me, I refuse to believe in such a thing until I see some proof.

And unlike Pleaton, I don't even need anything as high-falluting as a space probe reading. I'll be more than satisfied with some simple statistical evidence.

Here's how to convince me: You say your god answers prayers right? And Jebus loves the little children, right? And Christians are always praying for their kids to be safe, right?

So show me a study showing that Christian children have a lower infant or under-5 mortality rate than the general population after correcting for socioeconomic status and country of origin. You can download census data from any country in Europe or the US and do it in minutes if you know how to use Excel. While this wouldn't prove outright that God exists, it would strongly suggest that something beyond science is happening and that there is a clear benefit to being a Christian. That would be enough to sway me and confuse Pleaton, Logicboi and all the other stubborn atheists.

There's no way it can fail. The blessings of God are real. People give testimonies everyday about how God has protected them and preserved their families lives. The statistics must show the effect clearly. Are you ready to shut the doubting Thomases up for good? You could convince world governments to promote Christianity as a health and safety measure. You could win the Nobel peace prize for bringing the world back to God.

It can't possibly fail! I'll be waiting for your to post your results.

italo: Is it okay to make a categorical claim without empirical evidence of it - only on the lack of evidence to the contrary?

What do Atheists say?

Yes or no?

You're the one who's making the categorical claim that your flying judeochristian monster exists. For me, I refuse to believe in such a thing until I see some proof.

And unlike Pleaton, I don't even need anything as high-falluting as a space probe reading. I'll be more than satisfied with some simple statistical evidence.

Here's how to convince me: You say your god answers prayers right? And Jebus loves the little children, right? And Christians are always praying for their kids to be safe, right?

So show me a study showing that Christian children have a lower infant or under-5 mortality rate than the general population after correcting for socioeconomic status and country of origin. You can download census data from any country in Europe or the US and do it in minutes if you know how to use Excel. While this wouldn't prove outright that God exists, it would strongly suggest that something beyond science is happening and that there is a clear benefit to being a Christian. That would be enough to sway me and confuse Pleaton, Logicboi and all the other stubborn atheists.

There's no way it can fail. The blessings of God are real. People give testimonies everyday about how God has protected them and preserved their families lives. The statistics must show the effect clearly. Are you ready to shut the doubting Thomases up for good? You could convince world governments to promote Christianity as a health and safety measure. You could win the Nobel peace prize for bringing the world back to God.

It can't possibly fail! I'll be waiting for your to post your results.

Joshthefirst: we might not agree on everything, but that does not mean we should ignore each other and be enemies. Smh. What an angry and troubled human being.

logic 1; 22-23
-And his name was strawmanuel meaning "Strawman shall be strong with him"


Who is saying that you should be enemies? How can a deist agree with the bible on disbelievers? That is the most foolish thing that a deist can do. He forgets that he is a disbeliever according to the bible. Yaweh is not a deist god

op.

Many atheists are not sincere. they just like to remain atheists, not that no evidence of a creator exists, no. but they just want to be blind over the evidence of their brain so as to remain atheists.

Point at a robot and they will shout "of course somebody made it", but point at them, they ll say "they caim by chance". Prove how life came from nonliving thing, no prove. but they believe it happened, but wont believe God exists without prove.

just tell me how serious they are?

Evil Brain:

You're the one who's making the categorical claim that your flying judeochristian monster exists. For me, I refuse to believe in such a thing until I see some proof.

And unlike Pleaton, I don't even need anything as high-falluting as a space probe reading. I'll be more than satisfied with some simple statistical evidence.

Here's how to convince me: You say your god answers prayers right? And Jebus loves the little children, right? And Christians are always praying for their kids to be safe, right?

So show me a study showing that Christian children have a lower infant or under-5 mortality rate than the general population after correcting for socioeconomic status and country of origin. You can download census data from any country in Europe or the US and do it in minutes if you know how to use Excel. While this wouldn't prove outright that God exists, it would strongly suggest that something beyond science is happening and that there is a clear benefit to being a Christian. That would be enough to sway me and confuse Pleaton, Logicboi and all the other stubborn atheists.

There's no way it can fail. The blessings of God are real. People give testimonies everyday about how God has protected them and preserved their families lives. The statistics must show the effect clearly. Are you ready to shut the doubting Thomases up for good? You could convince world governments to promote Christianity as a health and safety measure. You could win the Nobel peace prize for bringing the world back to God.

It can't possibly fail! I'll be waiting for your to post your results.

If you're not making a categorical claim that God doesnt exist but you are open to be convinced by "evidence," it means you think there might be a possibility that God exists.

I would have no problem with you.

My issue is with those Atheists that are categorically saying God doesnt exist, like Mazaje.

Can you help me ask for their empirical evidence?

Thank you.

JMAN05: op.

Many atheists are not sincere. they just like to remain atheists, not that no evidence of a creator exists, no. but they just want to be blind over the evidence of their brain so as to remain atheists.

Point at a robot and they will shout "of course somebody made it", but point at them, they ll say "they caim by chance". Prove how life came from nonliving thing, no prove. but they believe it happened, but wont believe God exists without prove.

just tell me how serious they are?

Which of the gods or goddess created the universe. . .

italo:

If you're not making a categorical claim that God doesnt exist but you are open to be convinced by "evidence," it means you think there might be a possibility that God exists.

I would have no problem with you.

My issue is with those Atheists that are categorically saying God doesnt exist, like Mazaje.

Can you help me ask for their empirical evidence?

Thank you.

The empirical evidence is that all gods are man made that is why we have many different gods and many different religions. . .