@adsonstone, that was a nice logic to defray the infallible millennium.

italo: It doesnt matter how hard you try, i will only answer you if and when i feel like..until you tell me what 1 Cor 3 is talking about, and show me where i said Atheists believe in God

have you resumed twisting your old lies and false claims or do you have new ones?

You should be ignoring as you claimed.

Anyway, take it or leave it, I have made myself clear on that passage.

Even if we reason on your position which says 'judgment and aftermath' (which is no nessarily wrong), I'll still show you you're wrong for saying theres a purgatory part in that passage. (should we try?)

....and I did not accuse you of saying that atheists believe there's God.
(I think thats another form of dishonesty on your part.....trying to mix up the whole discussion, make the story long and unreasonable and finally, avoid answering the question of the subject on hand)

my reply that reads 'they dont believe there is any such person as God' was correctly in reply to your statement which read 'they know there is something as faith in the true God but there are many claims to it"(rephrased).

The bold prompted my reply--which was in line with your statement.

One thing we all agree on is that Our Father in Heaven is a loving and generoud God. He does not desire to see any of his children persih. We all know that nothing unclean will enter the kingdom of God, nothing with even the slightest speck of sin, and also we know all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. If we were to stick to this principles then nbody will see heaven or God because we all sin (in our thoughts, words, actions, by ommission or commision) everyday we sin. And most times we do not know we sin and therefore we do not ask for forgiveness and these sins are just there counting against us, because the devil our adversary is very good at counting.

The doctrine of Purgatory hinges on the fact that surely for those in state of venial sin, there must be a way for them to see God at the same time losing all that is sin about them. If you choose to believe this then fine for you. If you choose not to believe the fine for you. Only judgement day will we all come to the same reasoning.

Just know that this doctrine has been around since at least the 12th century that is 800years. So for 800 years the catholic Church has been preaching the wrong thing (according to some people) and the God we serve let the Church survive this long! The God I know/serve would not let such a fallacy that is capable of leading his people to condemnation hang around for so long.

The good news is tat the month of November is the month when we in the Catholic Church pray for the dead. I have booked plenty masses and am saying daily rosaries that they may be delivered from torment and united with our heavenly Father

adsonstone:

have you resumed twisting your old lies and false claims or do you have new ones?

You should be ignoring as you claimed.

Anyway, take it or leave it, I have made myself clear on that passage.

Even if we reason on your position which says 'judgment and aftermath' (which is no nessarily wrong), I'll still show you you're wrong for saying theres a purgatory part in that passage. (should we try?)

....and I did not accuse you of saying that atheists believe there's God.
(I think thats another form of dishonesty on your part.....trying to mix up the whole discussion, make the story long and unreasonable and finally, avoid answering the question of the subject on hand)

my reply that reads 'they dont believe there is any such person as God' was correctly in reply to your statement which read 'they know there is something as faith in the true God but there are many claims to it" (rephrased).

The bold prompted my reply--which was in line with your statement.

Here's your full reply below.

adsonstone:

The bold isn't true.
They believe there exist no such person as God.

Why esle would you omit The bold isn't true. from what you claimed your reply if it were not to deceive.

You call me a liar. That is cheap.

I call you a liar and I provide evidence of your lies and hypocrisy.

Another example: in a certain thread, you lied that I called Enigma a liar. It's been about a month and you are unable to provide evidence from that thread.

An evidence of your hypocrisy: you are averse to the Catholic Church claiming authority yet you claim authority for yourself by saying you and your Deeper Life church are infallible.

You will call me liar cheaply again...

...and I will call you liar and hypocrite WITH EVIDENCE.

JMAN05: Maybe YOU should clarify your apostolic succession. You believe that Charles Russell the false prophet is a product of apostolic succession...so tell us who ordained him.

JMAN05:

I don't believe the bonded. sorry, no road, divert to the other road.

Oh yeah? This is straight from your organization's publication:

"Jehovah's witnesses have a history almost 6,000 years long, beginning while the first man, Adam, was still alive ... [Abel was] the first of an unbroken line of Witnesses ... Jesus' disciples were all Jehovah's witnesses ..." Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose pp.8-9

So who's lying?

JMAN05 or his Watchtower Society?

Syncan:


"And they began to accuse him, saying , We found this man perverting our nation, and forbidding to give tribute to the emperor"

I guess I can quote this just to disparage the Lord. oh and blame it on your comprehension when you protest. The truth shall set you free.

hehehehe, my comprehension uh?

italo:

Here's your full reply below.



Why esle would you omit The bold isn't true. from what you claimed your reply if it were not to deceive.

You call me a liar. That is cheap.

I call you a liar and I provide evidence of your lies and hypocrisy.

Another example: in a certain thread, you lied that I called Enigma a liar. It's been about a month and you are unable to provide evidence from that thread.

An evidence of your hypocrisy: you are averse to the Catholic Church claiming authority yet you claim authority for yourself by saying you and your Deeper Life church are infallible.

You will call me liar cheaply again...

...and I will call you liar and hypocrite WITH EVIDENCE.

regarding the bold;

I'm not claiming ANY authority....by the way, I said the church is infallible with "the Holy Spirit's guidance".

I wonder why you always remove the part in quote when you accuse me if not to deceive and lay false allegations.

and of course, why wont I be averse to the authority the catholic church claims....when those claims are made with lies and all sort of fraudulent activities.
You believe what you practice are God-approved yet He warns against them in the bible.
You fraudulently practice things not practiced by the Apostles yet you claim they were practiced by them and you want to claim authority with these things.
Authority my foot!
Why wont I be averse to it.
Anyway, I'm not 'really concerned' about whats unique to you but I wont stop praying for you. What I'm really concerned with is what general to all christians....you guys are claiming authority with clear lies and fraud.


maybe I should show you your statement again.
I think you have forgotten.

italo:
Atheists know there is such a thing as religion and faith Iin the true God but they know there are many claims to it, though they dont believe in lt like you dont believe in apostolic succession.

thats your complete statement.

I replied with
"the bold is not true, they believe there is no such person as God" which perfectly answers your statement.

Of course, how can they believe there is a religion or faith in the true God when they believe there is no God??

By the way, I'm not here for your usual merry-go-round and subsequent diversions.

Clarify what's before you and stop being cunning.

adsonstone:

regarding the bold;

I'm not claiming ANY authority....by the way, I said the church is infallible with "the Holy Spirit's guidance".

I wonder why you always remove the part in quote when you accuse me if not to deceive and lay false allegations.

and of course, why wont I be averse to the authority the catholic church claims....when those claims are made with lies and all sort of fraudulent activities.
You believe what you practice are God-approved yet He warns against them in the bible.
You fraudulently practice things not practiced by the Apostles yet you claim they were practiced by them and you want to claim authority with these things.
Authority my foot!
Why wont I be averse to it.
Anyway, I'm not 'really concerned' about whats unique to you but I wont stop praying for you. What I'm really concerned with is what general to all christians....you guys are claiming authority with clear lies and fraud.


maybe I should show you your statement again.
I think you have forgotten.



thats your complete statement.

I replied with
"the bold is not true, they believe there is no such person as God" which perfectly answers your statement.

Of course, how can they believe there is a religion or faith in the true God when they believe there is no God??

By the way, I'm not here for your usual merry-go-round and subsequent diversions.

Clarify what's before you and stop being cunning.

And you forget your "Enigma" lie?

Or you deliberately pretended not to see it.

Anyway, I just wanted to prove I have evidence of your lies and hypocrisy.

While you just call me liar without evidence.

Just for fun.

What else do you want me to clarify?

babestell:
One thing we all agree on is that Our Father in Heaven is a loving and generoud God. He does not desire to see any of his children persih. We all know that nothing unclean will enter the kingdom of God, nothing with even the slightest speck of sin, and also we know all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. If we were to stick to this principles then nbody will see heaven or God because we all sin (in our thoughts, words, actions, by ommission or commision) everyday we sin. And most times we do not know we sin and therefore we do not ask for forgiveness and these sins are just there counting against us, because the devil our adversary is very good at counting.

The doctrine of Purgatory hinges on the fact that surely for those in state of venial sin, there must be a way for them to see God at the same time losing all that is sin about them. If you choose to believe this then fine for you. If you choose not to believe the fine for you. Only judgement day will we all come to the same reasoning.

Just know that this doctrine has been around since at least the 12th century that is 800years. So for 800 years the catholic Church has been preaching the wrong thing (according to some people) and the God we serve let the Church survive this long!
The God I know/serve would not let such a fallacy that is capable of leading his people to condemnation hang around for so long.

The good news is tat the month of November is the month when we in the Catholic Church pray for the dead. I have booked plenty masses and am saying daily rosaries that they may be delivered from torment and united with our heavenly Father

Here's a reasoning catholic.

Regarding the bold.
The first; God does not want His children to perish--now, the question is He interested in the perishing of others that are not Christians (if His children are christians), will He be happy to see them perish?
Obviously no.

The next, thank God you acknowledge that the purgatory concept did not start with the church.....and you also said it has survived for 800years! That's quite a long time

similarly, Islam has survived for over 1400yrs with over 1bn followers,

Hinduism has survived for centuries.

Judaism has started even before Christ came and it is still in existence till date!

and I guess you dont expect God Himself to correct humans on errors they make.

....does it mean that God doesnt care about these people too?

italo:

And you forget your "Enigma" lie?

Or you deliberately pretended not to see it.

Anyway, I just wanted to prove I have evidence of your lies and hypocrisy.

While you just call me liar without evidence.

Just for fun.

What else do you want me to clarify?

the bold is correct.
I delibrately pretended not to see it.
Why: I suppose it has been settled/clarified on that thread.

Clarify claims on apostolic succession....

By the way, have you verified that the passages you presented on puragtory do not speak of such?

adsonstone:

the bold is correct.
I delibrately pretended not to see it.
Why: I suppose it has been settled/clarified on that thread.

Nothing was clarified. "Show me where I called him liar" was my constant call.

One month later, you can't show it.

adsonstone: Clarify claims on apostolic succession....

I told you to convince Atheists of the authenticity of the Bible and Christianity. I even gave you a thread. Have you? When you do, I'll clarify apostolic succession to one who has no regard for it.

adsonstone: By the way, have you verified that the passages you presented on puragtory do not speak of such?

Yes. I verified that they dont speak of purgatory inside your lying and hypocritical head.

The Church has ALWAYS believed in purgatory. The date a doctrine is formally defined is not the date the teaching or belief started.

Tradition / Church Fathers
I. The Early Church’s Belief in Purgatory

"And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again receives her. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: Mother, thou shaft have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the just." Acts of Paul and Thecla (A.D. 160).
"Abercius by name, I am a disciple of the chaste shepherd...He taught me…faithful writings...These words, I, Abercius, standing by, ordered to be inscribed. In truth, I was in the course of my seventy-second year. Let him who understands and believes this pray fro Abercius." Inscription of Abercius (A.D. 190).
"Without delay, on that very night, this was shown to me in a vision. I saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid colour, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age? Who died miserably with disease...But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then was the birth-day of Gets Caesar, and I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me. I saw that that place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. And where there had been a wound, I saw a scar; and that pool which I had before seen, I saw now with its margin lowered even to the boy's navel. And one drew water from the pool incessantly, and upon its brink was a goblet filled with water; and Dinocrates drew near and began to drink from it, and the goblet did not fail. And when he was satisfied, he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment." The Passion of Perpetua and Felicitias, 2:3-4 (A.D. 202).
"Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more--not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God's righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness." Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:14 (post A.D. 202).
"[T]hat allegory of the Lord which is extremely clear and simple in its meaning, and ought to be from the first understood in its plain and natural sense...Then, again, should you be disposed to apply the term 'adversary' to the devil, you are advised by the (Lord's) injunction, while you are in the way with him, 'to make even with him such a compact as may be deemed compatible with the requirements of your true faith. Now the compact you have made respecting him is to renounce him, and his pomp, and his angels. Such is your agreement in this matter. Now the friendly understanding you will have to carry out must arise from your observance of the compact: you must never think of getting back any of the things which you have abjured, and have restored to him, lest he should summon you as a fraudulent man, and a transgressor of your agreement, before God the Judge (for in this light do we read of him, in another passage, as 'the accuser of the brethren,' or saints, where reference is made to the actual practice of legal prosecution); and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation?" Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 35 (A.D. 210).
"All souls, therefore; are shut up within Hades: do you admit this? It is true, whether you say yes or no: moreover, there are already experienced there punishments and consolations; and there you have a poor man and a rich...Moreover, the soul executes not all its operations with the ministration of the flesh; for the judgment of God pursues even simple cogitations and the merest volitions. 'Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.' Therefore, even for this cause it is most fitting that the soul, without at all waiting for the flesh, should be punished for what it has done without the partnership of the flesh. So, on the same principle, in return for the pious and kindly thoughts in which it shared not the help of the flesh, shall it without the flesh receive its consolation. In short, inasmuch as we understand 'the prison' pointed out in the Gospel to be Hades, and as we also interpret 'the uttermost farthing' to mean the very smallest offence which has to be recompensed there before the resurrection, no one will hesitate to believe that the soul undergoes in Hades some compensatory discipline, without prejudice to the full process of the resurrection, when the recompense will be administered through the flesh besides." Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 58 (A.D. 210).
"As often as the anniversary comes round, we make offerings for the dead as birthday honours." Tertullian, The Chaplut, 3 (A.D. 211).
"[A] woman is more bound when her husband is dead...Indeed, she prays for his soul, and requests refreshment for him meanwhile, and fellowship (with him) in the first resurrection; and she offers (her sacrifice) on the anniversary of his falling asleep." Tertullian, On Monogamy, 10 (A.D. 216).
"For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (1 Cor.,3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones; neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works." Origen, Homilies on Jeremias, PG 13:445, 448 ( A.D. 244).
"For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigour of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory: it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord." Cyprian, To Antonianus, Epistle 51 (55):20 (A.D. 253).
"Let us pray for our brethren that are at rest in Christ, that God, the lover of mankind, who has received his soul, may forgive him every sin, voluntary and involuntary, and may be merciful and gracious to him, and give him his lot in the land of the pious that are sent into the bosom of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, with all those that have pleased Him and done His will from the beginning of the world, whence all sorrow, grief, and lamentation are banished." Apostolic Constitutions, 8:4,41 (3rd Century).
"The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment: which the poets transferred to the vulture of Tityus. Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when He shall have judged the righteous, He will also try them with fire. Then they whose sins shall exceed either in weight or in number, shall be scorched by the fire and burnt: but they whom full justice and maturity of virtue has imbued will not perceive that fire; for they have something of God in themselves which repels and rejects the violence of the flame." Lactantius, The Divine Institutes, 7:21 (A.D. 307).
"Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth. And I wish to persuade you by an illustration. For I know that many say, what is a soul profited, which departs from this world either with sins, or without sins, if it be commemorated in the prayer? For if a king were to banish certain who had given him of-fence, and then those who belong to them should weave a crown and offer it to him on behalf of those under punishment, would he not grant a remission of their penalties? In the same way we, when we offer to Him our supplications for those who have fallen asleep, though they be sinners, weave no crown, but offer up Christ sacrificed for our sins, propitiating our merciful God for them as well as for ourselves.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 23:9,10 (c. A.D. 350).
"I think that the noble athletes of God, who have wrestled all their lives with the invisible enemies, after they have escaped all of their persecutions and have come to the end of life, are examined by the prince of this world; and if they are found to have any wounds from their wrestling, any stains or effects of sin, they are detained. If, however they are found unwounded and without stain, they are, as unconquered, brought by Christ into their rest." Basil, Homilies on the Psalms, 7:2 (ante A.D. 370).
"Lay me not with sweet spices: for this honour avails me not; Nor yet incense and perfumes: for the honour benefits me not. Burn sweet spices in the Holy Place: and me, even me, conduct to the grave with prayer. Give ye incense to God: and over me send up hymns. Instead of perfumes of spices: in prayer make remembrance of me." Ephraem, His Testament (ante A.D. 373).
"Useful too is the prayer fashioned on their [the dead’s] behalf...it is useful, because in this world we often stumble either voluntarily or involuntarily." Epiphanius, Panarion, 75:8 (A.D. 375).
"When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil." Gregory of Nyssa, Sermon on the Dead, PG 13:445,448 (ante A.D. 394).
"Give, Oh Lord, rest to Thy servant Theodosius, that rest Thou hast prepared for Thy saints....I love him, therefore will I follow him to the land of the living; I will not leave him till by my prayers and lamentations he shall be admitted unto the holy mount of the Lord,to which his deserts call him." Ambrose, De obitu Theodosii, PL 16:1397 (A.D. 395).
"Other husbands scatter on the graves of their wives violets, roses, lilies, and purple flowers; and assuage the grief of their hearts by fulfilling this tender duty. Our dear Pammachius also waters the holy ashes and the revered bones of Paulina, but it is with the balm of almsgiving." Jerome, To Pammachius, Epistle 66:5 (A.D. 397).
"Weep for the unbelievers; weep for those who differ in nowise from them, those who depart hence without the illumination, without the seal! They indeed deserve our wailing, they deserve our groans; they are outside the Palace, with the culprits, with the condemned: for, "Verily I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven." Mourn for those who have died in wealth, and did not from their wealth think of any solace for their soul, who had power to wash away their sins and would not. Let us all weep for these in private and in public, but with propriety, with gravity, not so as to make exhibitions of ourselves; let us weep for these, not one day, or two, but all our life. Such tears spring not from senseless passion, but from true affection. The other sort are of senseless passion. For this cause they are quickly quenched, whereas if they spring from the fear of God, they always abide with us. Let us weep for these; let us assist them according to our power; let us think of some assistance for them, small though it be, yet still let us assist them. How and in what way? By praying and entreating others to make prayers for them, by continually giving to the poor on their behalf." John Chrysostom, Homilies on Phillipians, 3 (ante A.D. 404).
"If the baptized person fulfills the obligations demanded of a Christian, he does well. If he does not--provided he keeps the faith, without which he would perish forever--no matter in what sin or impurity remains, he will be saved, as it were, by fire; as one who has built on the foundation, which is Christ, not gold, silver, and precious stones, but wood, hay straw, that is, not just and chasted works but wicked and unchaste works." Augustine, Faith and Works, 1:1 (A.D. 413).
"Now on what ground does this person pray that he may not be 'rebuked in indignation, nor chastened in hot displeasure"? He speaks as if he would say unto God, 'Since the things which I already suffer are many in number, I pray Thee let them suffice;' and he begins to enumerate them, by way of satisfying God; offering what he suffers now, that he may not have to suffer worse evils hereafter." Augustine, Exposition of the Psalms, 38(37):3 (A.D. 418).
"And it is not impossible that something of the same kind may take place even after this life. It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion as they have loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it. This cannot, however, be the case of any of those of whom it is said, that they 'shall not inherit the kingdom of God,' unless after suitable repentance their sins be forgiven them. When I say 'suitable,' I mean that they are not to be unfruitful in almsgiving; for Holy Scripture lays so much stress on this virtue, that our Lord tells us beforehand, that He will ascribe no merit to those on His right hand but that they abound in it, and no defect to those on His left hand but their want of it, when He shall say to the former, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom," and to the latter, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire.'" Augustine, Enchiridion, 69 (A.D. 421).
"During the time, moreover, which intervenes between a man's death and the final resurrection, the soul dwells in a hidden retreat, where it enjoys rest or suffers affliction just in proportion to the merit it has earned by the life which it led on earth." Augustine, Enchiridion, 1099 (A.D. 421).
"For our part, we recognize that even in this life some punishments are purgatorial,--not, indeed, to those whose life is none the better, but rather the worse for them, but to those who are constrained by them to amend their life. All other punishments, whether temporal or eternal, inflicted as they are on every one by divine providence, are sent either on account of past sins, or of sins presently allowed in the life, or to exercise and reveal a man's graces. They may be inflicted by the instrumentality of bad men and angels as well as of the good. For even if any one suffers some hurt through another's wickedness or mistake, the man indeed sins whose ignorance or injustice does the harm; but God, who by His just though hidden judgment permits it to be done, sins not. But temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But of those who suffer temporary punishments after death, all are not doomed to those everlasting pains which are to follow that judgment; for to some, as we have already said, what is not remitted in this world is remitted in the next, that is, they are not punished with the eternal punishment of the world to come." Augustine, City of God, 21:13 (A.D. 426).
"But since she has this certainty regarding no man, she prays for all her enemies who yet live in this world; and yet she is not heard in behalf of all. But she is heard in the case of those only who, though they oppose the Church, are yet predestinated to become her sons through her intercession...For some of the dead, indeed, the prayer of the Church or of pious individuals is heard; but it is for those who, having been regenerated in Christ, did not spend their life so wickedly that they can be judged unworthy of such compassion, nor so well that they can be considered to have no need of it. As also, after the resurrection, there will be some of the dead to whom, after they have endured the pains proper to the spirits of the dead, mercy shall be accorded, and acquittal from the punishment of the eternal fire. For were there not some whose sins, though not remitted in this life, shall be remitted in that which is to come, it could not be truly said, "They shall not be forgiven, neither in this world, neither in that which is to come.' But when the Judge of quick and dead has said, 'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world,' and to those on the other side, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire, which is prepared for the devil and his angels,' and 'These shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life,' it were excessively presumptuous to say that the punishment of any of those whom God has said shall go away into eternal punishment shall not be eternal, and so bring either despair or doubt upon the corresponding promise of life eternal." Augustine, City of God,2 1:24 (A.D. 426).

italo:
Nothing was clarified. "Show me where I called him liar" was my constant call.

One month later, you can't show it.

Nothing was clarified--simply because of your ignorance.

italo:
I told you to convince Atheists of the authenticity of the Bible and Christianity. I even gave you a thread. Have you? When you do, I'll clarify apostolic succession to one who has no regard for it.

even before you fraudulently brought in the 'atheist issue' you refused to clarify....now, you think you have found a reason to bluntly refuse right?
Well, I guess the reason behind all these avoidance is simply 'human tradition cannot be clarified neither can it be changed to God's will' or is that wrong?

italo:
Yes. I verified that they dont speak of purgatory inside your lying and hypocritical head.

are you a comedian or learning to be one?....because it must be one of the above considering your above statement.

Anyway, re-analyse that passage using both sides (judgment only/ judgment and aftermath).....I dont mind joining you though.

italo:




Oh yeah? This is straight from your organization's publication:

"Jehovah's witnesses have a history almost 6,000 years long, beginning while the first man, Adam, was still alive ... [Abel was] the first of an unbroken line of Witnesses ... Jesus' disciples were all Jehovah's witnesses ..." Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose pp.8-9

So who's lying?

JMAN05 or his Watchtower Society?

See me see trouble o. Where did that place mention apostolic succession? Jehovah has always had witnesses, how does that relate to apostolic succession? oh! was abel also an apostle leading to peter etc etc?

The article is only saying that Jehovah has always had witnesses from the time of Abel, NOT that he has always had apostles from Abel's time. habah! Russell never claimed he succeeded any apostle. We dont subscribe to the erroneous apostolic succession. You ve not said anything o. again, no road, divert. If you dont understamd english, the primary school is open.

@syncan, if d persn did nt ask 4 forgivenes b4 he/she die he can nt inherit d kingdm of God cos anger is a sin. If u read gala5v19-21 u wil c dat anger(wrath)is a sin and d cn't inherit d kingdm of God.

italo: The Church has ALWAYS believed in purgatory. The date a doctrine is formally defined is not the date the teaching or belief started.

Tradition / Church Fathers
I. The Early Church’s Belief in Purgatory

"And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again receives her. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: Mother, thou shaft have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the just." Acts of Paul and Thecla (A.D. 160).
"Abercius by name, I am a disciple of the chaste shepherd...He taught me…faithful writings...These words, I, Abercius, standing by, ordered to be inscribed. In truth, I was in the course of my seventy-second year. Let him who understands and believes this pray fro Abercius." Inscription of Abercius (A.D. 190).
"Without delay, on that very night, this was shown to me in a vision. I saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid colour, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age? Who died miserably with disease...But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then was the birth-day of Gets Caesar, and I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me. I saw that that place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. And where there had been a wound, I saw a scar; and that pool which I had before seen, I saw now with its margin lowered even to the boy's navel. And one drew water from the pool incessantly, and upon its brink was a goblet filled with water; and Dinocrates drew near and began to drink from it, and the goblet did not fail. And when he was satisfied, he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke

blah blah blah... Stories by the moon tale... All dis are stories.. Any one could have woken up to say all this... From dis post.. I personally dont get anything reasonable... I wonder if the others do.. No bible quotation with reference to what you are saying. We call this cock and bull story bro..

amara.lizzy%40y:
@syncan, if d persn did nt ask 4 forgivenes b4 he/she die he can nt inherit d kingdm of God cos anger is a sin. If u read gala5v19-21 u wil c dat anger(wrath)is a sin and d cn't inherit d kingdm of God.

my dear, i have no doubt in my mind that nobody will enter the heaven you preach.

jp philips:


which one is the church of christ? im kinda lost

The church of christ is the Body He gave at the last supper that he also asked to be done in his commemoration

Mrlouis: blah blah blah... Stories by the moon tale... All dis are stories.. Any one could have woken up to say all this... From dis post.. I personally dont get anything reasonable... I wonder if the others do.. No bible quotation with reference to what you are saying. We call this cock and bull story bro..

Bla bla bla...and you don't think anyone could have woken up to write the bible? Smh.. Read more of history hear?

adsonstone:

Nothing was clarified--simply because of your ignorance.

What has "ignorance" got to do with your lie?

Okay, show other people on this thread where I said Enigma is a liar on that thread, let them know the liar between you and I. Or is everybody but you ignorant?

adsonstone: even before you fraudulently brought in the 'atheist issue' you refused to clarify....now, you think you have found a reason to bluntly refuse right?
Well, I guess the reason behind all these avoidance is simply 'human tradition cannot be clarified neither can it be changed to God's will' or is that wrong?

Why are you "fraudulently" refusing to clarify true religion to Atheists as I sent you to do? Is it because "religious delusion," as they call it, cannot be clarified?

adsonstone: are you a comedian or learning to be one?....because it must be one of the above considering your above statement.

Anyway, re-analyse that passage using both sides (judgment only/ judgment and aftermath).....I dont mind joining you though.

Where is it that people suffer loss before being saved "as through fire?"

.

amara.lizzy%40y:
@syncan, if d persn did nt ask 4 forgivenes b4 he/she die he can nt inherit d kingdm of God cos anger is a sin. If u read gala5v19-21 u wil c dat anger(wrath)is a sin and d cn't inherit d kingdm of God.

"All sin is sin, but not all sin leads to death" 1john5:17.
Amii dear, will this person go to hell for this anger? Just the same place as one who was wicked and kills people, or neck deep in adultery? consider 1cor3:17.

italo:
What has "ignorance" got to do with your lie?

Okay, show other people on this thread where I said Enigma is a liar on that thread, let them know the liar between you and I. Or is everybody but you ignorant?

You have clearly chosen to ignore what I said about that issue that's why I tagged that attitude 'ignorance'

Anyway, no problem.

I will show them only if you show other people on this thread where I claimed I know exactly how Jesus danced on the other thread.

italo:
Why are you "fraudulently" refusing to clarify true religion to Atheists as I sent you to do? Is it because "religious delusion," as they call it, cannot be clarified?

You're the one using that fraudulent means of telling me to clarify religion to atheists.

Clarify what's before you and stop diverting fraudulently.

italo:
Where is it that people suffer loss before being saved "as through fire?"

You can answer this question.
I'll help you with a question guide.

Answer this honestly and you'll have your correct answer.

Where is that place where everyman's work will be revealed by fire on the day of the Lord?

adsonstone:
You have clearly chosen to ignore what I said about that issue that's why I tagged that attitude 'ignorance'

Anyway, no problem.

I will show them only if you show other people on this thread where I claimed I know exactly how Jesus danced on the other thread.



You're the one using that fraudulent means of telling me to clarify religion to atheists.

Clarify what's before you and stop diverting fraudulently.



You can answer this question.
I'll help you with a question guide.

Answer this honestly and you'll have your correct answer.

Where is that place where everyman's work will be revealed by fire on the day of the Lord?

Ppffff!!! Smh

italo:

Ppffff!!! Smh

What the heck is this?

Have you found out the truth (and too embarrassed to admit it) or are you ignoring again?

,

adsonstone:

What the heck is this?

Have you found out the truth (and too embarrassed to admit it) or are you ignoring again?

italo:

I thank GOD this is a public forum.
Everyone here can witness your ignorance of the truth and your diversions when you have no excuse.

You can choose to ignore truth....of course, because you cannot change it.

Peace, Bro.

adsonstone:

I thank GOD this is a public forum.
Everyone here can witness your ignorance of the truth and your diversions when you have no excuse.

You can choose to ignore truth....of course, because you cannot change it.

Peace, Bro.

Dont kill yourself. Truth doesn't need announcement.

italo:

Dont kill yourself. Truth doesn't need announcement.

100 likes

vickyO: Nothing like purgatory. those Catholics like confusing themselves, that's why you see some of them drinking to stupor in their meetings and doing things that contradicts the doctrines of the Bible. they make themselves believe they can sin till they die and get corrected in purgatory before entering heaven. They are good for being united in the wrong set of doctrines and being blinded by it. better correct most of the dirty doctrines prevalent in your denomination before your behinds land in hades.

and the mods didn't hide this piece of trash?