chukwudi44:

Bros you are the incorrigible liar and hypocrite here.You asked me to keep listing even after I had presented a longer list than you yet you do not want to name the differences or is just simply ignorant SMH for you.

adsonstone:

I've told you my position on that.

You have given me conflicting positions. You ascerted "judgement alone." Then you said the passage talks about eternal damnation (which is the AFTERMATH of judgement. Later, you said "Judgement and its reward." And you said you dont know what "reward" is...meaning it could be heaven - AFTERMATH.

What exactly do you say the passage is talking of...judgement alone or judgement and its aftermath?

adsonstone: ....and who says it is definitely Heaven?
Hope you dont mind showing me.

Jesus already reigns in eternity (1 Cor. 15:24-27, Rev. 4 & 5) and that in this world His reign, established as a seed, is found already in the Church. This is the 1000 years, which is the Hebrew way of indicating an indefinite long time - in this case, the time between the first and second comings, the era of the Church, in other words the last days in the broadest sense.The Book of Revelation situates this era between the persecutions of the Roman antichrists of the first century and the final unleashing of evil at the end.

adsonstone: I asserted that they have not been judged because I know they cant be judged twice, one that will make them suffer and another that will take them to glory.

You are ascerting not on what the Bible says, but on personal oral tradition. You're a hypocrite because you proclaim Bible alone and try to force I who dont believe in in Bible alone to give you proofs from the Bible. Meanwhile, you cannot prove or disprove my point from the Bible. You have to dubiously resort to personal tradition.

There you fail!

adsonstone: Besides, read the bolded verse. It said 'they lived not'. It is a fact that they had to live(resurrect) to be judged and to live after judgement.

Hope thats been cleared.

Stop trolling. Even those who came to life did so after the 1st Judgement.

adsonstone: I agree.
Only souls of those that did not die.

Good. Not everyone goes to hades/sheol. So where does the Bible say only those who didnt die avoid hades/sheol. Your personal tradition again?

adsonstone: that has been cleared in my former post.
Its a certain implication, unlike the one you implied.

You cleared nothing in the former post. You offered a blunder, saying it's a fact that only the resurrected (that live) could be judged...when rather resurrection came after the 1st judgement.

adsonstone: By that, do you mean these?
1. All souls in hades= certainly heaven
2. Others in death and sea= heaven or hell

if thats what you mean, give a proof.

My position is: category 1 =heaven/hell and same with category 2

What kind of proof do you want? Proof from personal tradition like you offered for your position above?

My position is that: there are souls who did not live after the first judgement who will live after second judgement. Whether they are in hades or sea before the final judgement, I dont know. The passage supports/doesn't oppose this. It's enough proof.

adsonstone: All what you have been saying, I'll still prove it all to be false. I'm just going through this discussion with you to show you that you're still making mistakes in these false things.

Why are you telling me instead of going right ahead and proving me wrong?

adsonstone: I pray you see light though, I know its not easy.
You'll rather stick to a wrong teaching than be embarassed or come out to accept that you were wrong.

Next time you want to say this, look in the mirror.

adsonstone:

The bold is a lie. I never said that they dont see him as peter's successor, I mentioned that they have theirs who they also believe to be Peter's direct successor.
.....and if thats true, who exactly is the true successor?
Theirs or yours?

Maybe yours. Kumuyi.

Behold, at last a reply!
Perhaps, a new lie or twist to muse over.

Lets examine anyway.

italo:

You have given me conflicting positions. You ascerted "judgement alone." Then you said the passage talks about eternal damnation (which is the AFTERMATH of judgement. Later, you said "Judgement and its reward." And you said you dont know what "reward" is...meaning it could be heaven - AFTERMATH.

I'm not the one giving conflicting positions.
Thats exactly how the passage puts it.

It mentions- Judgment and its reward--which remains unspecified in that passage.

The same passage further states that 'anyone that destroys God's temple will be destroyed'

You dont expect me to imply conclusion (regarding the reward) and assume it to be right.

I cant just imply Heaven as the reward.
Why: the passage states that those that have unburnt works will get that reward.....with which work will others get reward? Is it the burnt same burnt works?

italo:
Jesus already reigns in eternity (1 Cor. 15:24-27, Rev. 4 & 5) and that in this world His reign, established as a seed, is found already in the Church. This is the 1000 years, which is the Hebrew way of indicating an indefinite long time - in this case, the time between the first and second comings, the era of the Church, in other words the last days in the broadest sense.The Book of Revelation situates this era between the persecutions of the Roman antichrists of the first century and the final unleashing of evil at the end.

before we start....
Does the bold mean that the 1000year (which you say is Christ indefinite) reign has started?

If you mean actually has, then you are utterly wrong!
And if you think youre not, tell me.
Now, the whole twist.
Lets set things straight again.

First, we know the book of Revelation talks about the future (second coming of Christ and its aftermath) in the broad sense and not 'last days' before the second coming as you twisted (matt 24 and other parts of the bible talks abt 'last days' before the 2nd coming) though, Revelation talks a little about what we have through Christ as a result of our redemption.

italo:
You are ascerting not on what the Bible says, but on personal oral tradition. You're a hypocrite because you proclaim Bible alone and try to force I who dont believe in in Bible alone to give you proofs from the Bible. Meanwhile, you cannot prove or disprove my point from the Bible. You have to dubiously resort to personal tradition.

There you fail!

did you not read that passage?
Thats exactly what is said not 'my tradition'.

italo:
Stop trolling. Even those who came to life did so after the 1st Judgement.

no, the judgment itself is the first resurrection.

italo:
Good. Not everyone goes to hades/sheol. So where does the Bible say only those who didnt die avoid hades/sheol. Your personal tradition again?

we'll still get there, you dont need to rush.

italo:
You cleared nothing in the former post. You offered a blunder, saying it's a fact that only the resurrected (that live) could be judged...when rather resurrection came after the 1st judgement.

hope you now understand?

italo:
What kind of proof do you want? Proof from personal tradition like you offered for your position above?

My position is that: there are souls who did not live after the first judgement who will live after second judgement. Whether they are in hades or sea before the final judgement, I dont know. The passage supports/doesn't oppose this. It's enough proof.

have you changed your mind?
Have you forgotten that you said that there are some that will 'be sentenced to' go through some form of purification after the first judgment?

italo:
Why are you telling me instead of going right ahead and proving me wrong?

hopefully, we'll get there.
I really hope you will not shy away before then and claim you're ignoring just as you did on the other thread.

adsonstone:
intead of referring me to this, I think you should refer me to someone God punished after Christ died for his sins.....that would be better.

SMH....Your arguments are always 'literal' but it lacks proof of a well thought process.

italo:

Maybe yours. Kumuyi.

are you cleverly/cunningly trying to avoid that question?

I never claimed that Kumuyi is Peter's direct successor but you claim Francis is so does the Orthodox christians claim their bishops is....so, who do we believe? I ask again.

Saint Chukz: SMH....Your arguments are always 'literal' but it lacks proof of a well thought process.

to start with learners.

The quote above is usually from someone who did not read the agument at all or read with bias (most likely catholics)

Others can judge to validate your opinion.

Well 'Saint',
your non-literal/spiritual arguments/contributions that has all the proof af an 'excellently thought process' are welcome.

I hope you dont mind delivering them.

Purgatory is a lie from the pit of HELL. There's no such thing like purgatory and let me remind you my brothers and sisters that there is no BIG SIN and SMALL SIN. Sin is sin so no need of decorating or painting it because it's still what it is.

italo: Let us imagine that instead of lying once, she blew up an airplane full of passenger once.

Will she go to heaven straight still...

Wow. that is a great sin. however, if the assumption is that it is voluntary, we cant say God will still take him as a son in heaven.

chukwudi44:

Yes of course.Unrighteousness that does not lead to death (1 John 5:16-17)

Hope you don't mind telling me where the word bible is mentioned in the bible.

1. So the unrighteous persons are going to heaven after ur "purgatory", even those who died as disobedient persons in Noah's day?

By the way, that doesnt show me purgatory there, hope u know? am just assuming.

Now from my reading, I dont think that place is talking about the dead, but the living praying on behalf of the living which he sees commiting sin. It wont be logical if we say it refers to the dead. it says, if u catches sight of u bro sinning, then you pray. You cant catch sight of a dead person.

What do u think?

2. 2 Timothy 4:13 KJV
The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee , and the books (biblia = bible), but especially the parchments.

adsonstone:
I'm not the one giving conflicting positions.
Thats exactly how the passage puts it.

It mentions- Judgment and its reward--which remains unspecified in that passage.

The same passage further states that 'anyone that destroys God's temple will be destroyed'

You dont expect me to imply conclusion (regarding the reward) and assume it to be right.

I cant just imply Heaven as the reward.
Why: the passage states that those that have unburnt works will get that reward.....with which work will others get reward? Is it the burnt same burnt works?

Did the passage talked about the aftermath of judgement...Yes, no or you dont know?

adsonstone: before we start....
Does the bold mean that the 1000year (which you say is Christ indefinite) reign has started?

Yes.

adsonstone: If you mean actually has, then you are utterly wrong!
And if you think youre not, tell me.
Now, the whole twist.
Lets set things straight again.

First, we know the book of Revelation talks about the future (second coming of Christ and its aftermath) in the broad sense and not 'last days' before the second coming as you twisted (matt 24 and other parts of the bible talks abt 'last days' before the 2nd coming) though, Revelation talks a little about what we have through Christ as a result of our redemption.

The above makes no sense and doesn't refute my position.

adsonstone: did you not read that passage?
Thats exactly what is said not 'my tradition'.

You ascerted that Lazarus and the rich man hadn't been judged. Scripture doesn't say this. You're appealing to your personal tradition and that makes you a failed hypocrite.

adsonstone: no, the judgment itself is the first resurrection.

And here's your earlier statement:

adsonstone: It is a fact that they had to live(resurrect) to be judged and to live after judgement.

You're saying life=resurrection=judgement?!

Meaning 'they had to be judged (live - resurrect) to be judged and to be judged (live) after judgement.' --paraphrasing you above statements.

You're saying:

1. Those who live and reign with Christ for 1000 years are judged for 1000 years.
2. Only righteous people are judged.

ROFLMAO! Arent you hilarious?!

adsonstone: we'll still get there, you dont need to rush.

Oh! First you accuse me of shying away; then when post, you say I'm rushing. You're one hell of a hypocrite, arent you?

So where does the Bible say only those who didnt die avoid hades/sheol. Your personal tradition again?

adsonstone: have you changed your mind?
Have you forgotten that you said that there are some that will 'be sentenced to' go through some form of purification after the first judgment?

And I maintain that. Can you show me another statement of mine that says some will not be sent to purification from the 1st judgement?

adsonstone: hopefully, we'll get there.
I really hope you will not shy away before then and claim you're ignoring just as you did on the other thread.

You're the one shying away...while accusing me of shying away. I thought by now you should have brought your proofs.

adsonstone:

are you cleverly/cunningly trying to avoid that question?

I never claimed that Kumuyi is Peter's direct successor but you claim Francis is so does the Orthodox christians claim their bishops is....so, who do we believe? I ask again.

You have to first tell me who it is that the Orthodox Christians believe to be Peter's direct successor, how they believe he is Peter's successor and how it conflicts with the Catholic position as you're implying.

I'm all ears.

Joyce2510: Purgatory is a lie from the pit of HELL. There's no such thing like purgatory and let me remind you my brothers and sisters that there is no BIG SIN and SMALL SIN. Sin is sin so no need of decorating or painting it because it's still what it is.

You are contradicting the Holy Spirit.

1 John 5:16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.

JMAN05:

Wow. that is a great sin. however, if the assumption is that it is voluntary, we cant say God will still take him as a son in heaven.

In the case of a white lie you said God will take him to heaven because Christ's death has made him righteous.

In the case of blowing a plane, you dont think God will take him to heaven.

Let me ask you the question a Protestant asked earlier (its probably even you),

What sins did Christ die for?

If it is all sins, why are you sure the saint that lied will go to heaven while the one that killed will probably go to hell?

JMAN05:

1. So the unrighteous persons are going to heaven after ur "purgatory", even those who died as disobedient persons in Noah's day?

By the way, that doesnt show me purgatory there, hope u know? am just assuming.

Now from my reading, I dont think that place is talking about the dead, but the living praying on behalf of the living which he sees commiting sin. It wont be logical if we say it refers to the dead. it says, if u catches sight of u bro sinning, then you pray. You cant catch sight of a dead person.

What do u think?

2. 2 Timothy 4:13 KJV
The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee , and the books (biblia = bible), but especially the parchments.

Aha! You're the clown that believes every document is the Bible, even your voter's card.

italo: So where does the Bible say only those who didnt die avoid hades/sheol. Your personal tradition again?

Bro some of your posts here is so hilarious........ I do wonder from the way you reply to (adsonstone): that you truly know all the bible and interpret es well BUT the (quote ) above caught my attention.

Pls for correction purpose, here in (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


So bro not everyone will pass through your hades/sheol please read well.

kingk:

Bro some of your posts here is so hilarious........ I do wonder from the way you reply to (adsonstone): that you truly know all the bible and interpret es well BUT the (quote ) above caught my attention.

Pls for correction purpose, here in (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


So bro not everyone will pass through your hades/sheol please read well.

My dear brother,

You are so blinded by anti-Catholic bias that you dont even realize that we're not saying different things: we both agree that not everyone will pass through your hades/sheol.

Open your closed mind.

I stumbled on this post on purgatory by the Catholic church's official page. It even speaks better volumes than we have learnt so far on NL. Happy reading.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=315251671946200&substory_index=0&id=156529081151794&refid=28&_ft_=qid.5944613961862189568%3Amf_story_key.-8118931658944845161

"Nigerian Catholics
ATTENTION FELLOW CATHOLICS!!!
PRAYER-PENNIES FOR PURGATORY’S POOR!!!
- THE P.P.P. CAMPAIGN!!!!!
“It is therefore aholy and wholesome thought to pray forthe dead,
that they may be loosed from sins.”
(2nd Maccabees 12:46)
ALL SOULS’ DAY (November 2nd), as we all know, is the special day set aside by Holy Mother Church in the month of November for masses to be said in honour of the faithful departed,and for the relief and ultimate release of the Holy Souls in Purgatory.
The traditional Octave for this Solemnity is on the 8th day (a week) after the Feast day; thus, allowing for Holy Mother Church to befittingly remember the Dead by saying the same solemn Requiem Mass, all week long, with the same spiritual value as on the Feast day.
Thus, like the numerical figure “eight” ( which is the vertically aligned Greek symbol of “Infinity” (∞) and as a notation with neither a beginning nor an end, the celebration of a Liturgical Octave symbolizes the never-ending adoration of God by His Elect in Eternity, while giving a foretaste of thisDivine experience to members of His Church Militant on earth.
As faithful Catholics, therefore, in one way or the other we may have offeredup some physical or spiritual good works of mercyfor our beloved dead on All Souls Day (and, perhaps too, during the just-ended Octave week); with the most meritorious of them all, being the highest important Catholic public worship which we assisted at in theirhonour, and the prayer intentions we presentedtherein for them in the greatestand most efficacious prayer forthe ChurchSuffering- THE HOLY SACRIFICE OF THE MASS. May the Good Lord bless us all for all meaningful homage paid to Him, on behalf of the Holy Souls at thosetimes.
This being said, we must not hastenour stepsto leave the presence of Almighty God after we have prayed for our dead loved ones on All Souls’ Day and its allotted Octave period.
Contraryto this, we must at best, remember them each day of our lives, and offerup the merits of some good works of ours,for their spiritual benefit; for nothing is more glorious to God, nothing gives more honour to His Holy Name, nothing rejoices His Heart more, nothing is more pleasing to Him, than charityfor the “Poor Souls”, which opens Heaven to them, to increase the number of thosewho praise and glorify God, and the number of pure hearts thatlove Him for all eternity.
“Such a work,” says Bourdaloue(the ‘king of preachers’), “is an apostolate more noble, more meritorious, than the conversionof sinners, and even of heathens.” ; for the prayers forthe conversionof living sinners are often hindered by their free will choice to remain obstinate in their evil ways, making our evangelization for their repentance much more difficult; but the soulsin purgatory, who have no exercise of theirfree will, and who now see their folly for their many previous mistakesin their earthly life, make efficient use of every consolation thatcomes to them from the Divine per our prayer requeststo Heaven forthem. Every prayer for the poor soulsis eventually useful, as it either brings them comfort in their presentsufferings, or contributesto their final discharge from the Prison of Divine Justice.
So important is devotion to the Holy Souls in Purgatory that, Holy Mother Church, not only sets apartan Octave and a Feast day on Her Liturgical Calendar for their commemoration (especially in the three (3) compulsory masses meant to be offeredby every priest onthe Feast day), but also She dedicates the whole month of November for this cause. Thus, recommended pious practices that can be observed by the Church Militant during this whole month of November and any other times of the year to aid thesesouls include:
1. Assisting at mass and offering mass intentions in honourof them.
2. Making the sacrament of Penance in atonement for poor souls.
3. Visiting the cemetery or the grave of our beloveddead, to offerprayers forthem there.
4. Sprinkling Holy Water to as a sign of nourishment and quenching of their thirst.
5. Saying the Holy Rosary in their memory.
6. Making the Stations of the Crossto unite their passions with that of the Christas form of consolation to them.
7. Praying other devotional prayers like the Chapletof the Poor Souls, Litanies, etc… all in their honour.
8. Offering up all our ordinary but decentdaily routines, good works and the merits which come from them, for the sufferingsouls.
As already mentioned, masses offered for the poor soulsis the greatestact of charity to them. Thus, since it is customaryand even just courteous to usually give somesought of stipend (big or small) for this cause in our parishes, as a way of appreciating the efforts and timeof the priests who say thesemasses, for the purchase of items used forthe massessaid, and also for helping the Churchin Her general financial upkeep, Church Fathershave often recommended the unique pious practiceof gathering small money changes, and putting them away till a substantial amount is reached where it can be given for masses to be said forthe poor souls.
Saint John Chrysostomin his days, recommended to every Christian family thatthey have a box at some convenient place in the house forthe collection of pennies, which were to be used in having masses said for the poor souls.
This was in order not to burden the faithful with greatfinancial responsibility for this exercise, but ratherto have these pennies which often have no economical use or value to many and are disregarded and thrown away, to be put to good use.
In our day when giving for the causeof the well-being of the physically poor in our society as a corporal work of mercy has even become so difficult for many due to cold love, how many will be willing then to even give huge notes for mass intentions forthe dead? How many will not come up with excuses fortheir inability to supportthis devotion with their material substance? Thus the need for this generation to revive practice of PRAYER-PENNIES FOR PURGATORY’S POOR.
Yes, they are “poor” by virtue of the spiritual debt thatthey owe to the Divine Justice of HisMajesty, and we help pay and cancel their debts by prayers.However, these prayers can also be symbolized in the physical moneys we contribute for the prayers said forthem at the altar of God, and any “poor” person appreciates even the minutest show of concerntowards amnestyfrom their owing balances.
Poor and sinful Humanity’s salvation was bought by the Most Precious and Priceless Blood of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ; and in union with Him, He calls us to do likewise, (however little) for the sanctification of our beloved dead, with our finite material resources, for their infinite spiritual gain and our own future eternal reward.
Having come to know of this, may we be inspired to begin this pious tradition in our homes from henceforth, especially in this Month of November, in order to gatherup enough changes fora special requiem mass for our beloved dead at least by the end of the month.
Currencies varyfrom place to place, but it is especially expected to put away at least, the smallest of denominations of whatever currency we spendfor this honorable cause.
May the Holy Souls in Purgatory who are so grateful foreven the tiniestexpression of love towards them, reward us, as we resolve to do theselittle things forthem. Amen.
CATHOLICS!
SAVE A “PENNY”, SANCTIFY A SOUL!
"The Holy Souls are eager for the prayers of the faithful which can gain indulgencesfor them. Their intercession is powerful. Pray unceasingly. We must empty Purgatory!"
-- Saint Padre Pio
"Yet how quickly we could empty purgatory ifwe but really wished to."
-- St John Vianney, Cure d'Ars".

What Your in Nigeria! Look around the slums of Lagos! You can start there and then keep traveling about your homeland and look at the gap between rich and poor and ask yourself why would a good God allow this? Oh, because favor ain't fair. Or you can just take a trip to a slave castle and learn about the torment of your ancestors if the slums of Lagos isn't enough. Man has outdone the devil on many of occasions and is doing a good job of it in Africa today

italo:

In the case of a white lie you said God will take him to heaven because Christ's death has made him righteous.

In the case of blowing a plane, you dont think God will take him to heaven.

Let me ask you the question a Protestant asked earlier (its probably even you),

What sins did Christ die for?

If it is all sins, why are you sure the saint that lied will go to heaven while the one that killed will probably go to hell?

the word there is voluntarily or willfully. this terms are the key words. I have stated this before.

Cbrist's death made it possible to declare people righteous, but anyone who takes this as a leverage to live in sin or willfully indulge in sin, will not be welcomed. however, God has the final say as to wether somebody willfully commited a sin or not cos he searches the heart.

At any rate, salvation is not based on your work alone cos with ur works alone, you cant be declared righteous. we are sinners from birth. so you must commit one sin or the other, but let it not be that you are living in sin or willfully doing the wrong.

Understand too that some sins are viewed more serious than the other. You know the unforgiveable sin na. fornication, murder, adultery, overdrinking, homosexuals are serious sins. 1cor. 6:9-10. a lie can be serious and may also not be a serious sin depending on the situation amd the thing lied upon.

italo:

In the case of a white lie you said God will take him to heaven because Christ's death has made him righteous.

In the case of blowing a plane, you dont think God will take him to heaven.

Let me ask you the question a Protestant asked earlier (its probably even you),

What sins did Christ die for?

If it is all sins, why are you sure the saint that lied will go to heaven while the one that killed will probably go to hell?

the word there is voluntarily or willfully. this terms are the key words. I have stated this before.

Cbrist's death made it possible to declare people righteous, but anyone who takes this as a leverage to live in sin or willfully indulge in sin, will not be welcomed. however, God has the final say as to wether somebody willfully commited a sin or not cos he searches the heart.

At any rate, salvation is not based on your work alone cos with ur works alone, you cant be declared righteous. we are sinners from birth. so you must commit one sin or the other, but let it not be that you are living in sin or willfully doing the wrong.

Understand too that some sins are viewed more serious than the other. You know the unforgiveable sin na. fornication, murder, adultery, overdrinking, homosexuals are serious sins. 1cor. 6:9-10. a lie can be serious and may also not be a serious sin depending on the situation amd the thing lied upon.

I viewed that of murder as serious sin, since also assume he did it willfully, but that of white lie as not a serious sin.

italo:

Aha! You're the clown that believes every document is the Bible, even your voter's card.

No point!!!

JMAN05:

the word there is voluntarily or willfully. this terms are the key words. I have stated this before.

Cbrist's death made it possible to declare people righteous, but anyone who takes this as a leverage to live in sin or willfully indulge in sin, will not be welcomed. however, God has the final say as to wether somebody willfully commited a sin or not cos he searches the heart.

At any rate, salvation is not based on your work alone cos with ur works alone, you cant be declared righteous. we are sinners from birth. so you must commit one sin or the other, but let it not be that you are living in sin or willfully doing the wrong.

Understand too that some sins are viewed more serious than the other. You know the unforgiveable sin na. fornication, murder, adultery, overdrinking, homosexuals are serious sins. 1cor. 6:9-10. a lie can be serious and may also not be a serious sin depending on the situation amd the thing lied upon.

Are you saying that one who overdrinks once is doomed to hell since it is unforgivable? Yes or no.

Are you saying that a Saint who willfully tells a small lie just once and dies without asking for forgiveness will go to heaven while a Saint who willfully overdrinks just once and dies without asking for forgiveness will likely go to hell?

Please clarify concisely.

PLEASE PURGATORY IS BIBLICAL AND IT IS NOT OF GOD. IF YOU BELIEVE IN IT AND DIE, YOU WILL END UP IN HELL. READ YOUR BIBLE, THEIR IS NO REPENTANCE IN THE GRAVE. IF YOU DONT OF YOUR SINS NOW AND FORSAKE THEM, THEN U WILL BE DOOMED FOREVER AFTER DEATH.

2 Corinthians 6:2 KJV
(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

italo:

Yes.

This is what i'm most interested in.

italo:
The above makes no sense and doesn't refute my position.

of course, that wasnt to refute your position.....it was just to set things straight.

Your position has so many implications.....We'll discuss them in bits (cos my fone cannot allow me to say all at once)

The first that refutes you is that in the 1000 year reign, Satan will have no access to deceive anyone (Rev 20:1-3).

If you insist the reign has started, remember the devil is still deceiving billions....even deceiving some to believe that there is no God.....and some to believe that he is not deceiving them.

italo:
You ascerted that Lazarus and the rich man hadn't been judged. Scripture doesn't say this. You're appealing to your personal tradition and that makes you a failed hypocrite.

not my personal tradition. Jesus verified the rich man was in Hades.
Revelation says those in Hades 'will be judged' not 'had been judged'.

You ascerted that they have been judged.
Scripture does not say this, I guess its your own personal tradition.

italo:
And here's your earlier statement:

You're saying life=resurrection=judgement?!

Meaning 'they had to be judged (live - resurrect) to be judged and to be judged (live) after judgement.' --paraphrasing you above statements.

You're saying:

1. Those who live and reign with Christ for 1000 years are judged for 1000 years.
2. Only righteous people are judged.

wrong paraphrase as usual....and the bold makes no sense.

They are judged forever. the passage (v6) says they're 'blessed and Holy and the second death has no power over them'..
Does that not teach you something or are you unwilling to learn?

italo:
ROFLMAO! Arent you hilarious?!

I should call a doctor to carry out 'a proper check-up' on you.
Perhaps, He'll know why you're ROFLYAO.

italo:
Oh! First you accuse me of shying away; then when post, you say I'm rushing. You're one hell of a hypocrite, arent you?

no, you always want to hear the whole truth, reject it and claim you're ignoring.

italo:
So where does the Bible say only those who didnt die avoid hades/sheol. Your personal tradition again?

did the bible not tell you that or describe hades/sheol as the realm of the dead?

Doesnt that mean that those who dont die avoid it?

It also gave examples of men that did not die and it does not say they go to sheol....similarly, others who wont die, it says what will happen to them....KingK even clarified that.

italo:
And I maintain that. Can you show me another statement of mine that says some will not be sent to purification from the 1st judgement?

thank God you maintain that.
You said in one of your posts that 'there are some who dont live after the first judgment that will live after the second....and you went further to say that they are in hades, sea etc'

I just reminded you of your former statement so you wont mince words.

Now that we have agreed that hades is purgatorium in latin which means purgatory in english.

Now, do you have an evidence from that passage that supports that some will be sent to purification (in purgatory) after the first jugdment....or is the evidence in your church's oral tradition?

italo:
You're the one shying away...while accusing me of shying away. I thought by now you should have brought your proofs.

we'll know who shys away in the end.

italo:

You have to first tell me who it is that the Orthodox Christians believe to be Peter's direct successor, how they believe he is Peter's successor and how it conflicts with the Catholic position as you're implying.

I'm all ears.

who it is they believe: their Patriachs (bishops)

how they believe:
they believe the church was built on Peter's confession of faith.
Their same bishops that confess the same as Peter is his successor and not different from him (Peter).

How it conflicts with your position:
you believe the church is built on a man- Peter

You believe He's first pope and see him as leader of the other apostles. They believe He's not superior to any of the other apostles....and that they're all equal....so as their bishops are today.
You believe Francis is the head- The church is on him and hes not equal to your other bishops...he's superior.

I'm open to corrections on catholic positions and pls, be kind to clarify the position if I've made any error

^^^ Even some of their Roman Catholic "fathers" take a similar attitude as the Eastern Orthodox people that all the bishops are equal and, not only that, that they are also all successors of Peter.

Just one example (of many):

"Christ is the Rock Who granted to His apostles that they should be called rocks. God has founded His Church on this Rock, and it is from this Rock that Peter has been named." - Jerome

Obviously such people were familiar with Ephesians 2

19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

adsonstone:

This is what i'm most interested in.



of course, that wasnt to refute your position.....it was just to set things straight.

Your position has so many implications.....We'll discuss them in bits (cos my fone cannot allow me to say all at once)

The first that refutes you is that in the 1000 year reign, Satan will have no access to deceive anyone (Rev 20:1-3).

If you insist the reign has started, remember the devil is still deceiving billions....even deceiving some to believe that there is no God.....and some to believe that he is not deceiving them.



not my personal tradition. Jesus verified the rich man was in Hades.
Revelation says those in Hades 'will be judged' not 'had been judged'.

You ascerted that they have been judged.
Scripture does not say this, I guess its your own personal tradition.


wrong paraphrase as usual....and the bold makes no sense.

They are judged forever. the passage (v6) says they're 'blessed and Holy and the second death has no power over them'..
Does that not teach you something or are you unwilling to learn?



I should call a doctor to carry out 'a proper check-up' on you.
Perhaps, He'll know why you're ROFLYAO.


no, you always want to hear the whole truth, reject it and claim you're ignoring.



did the bible not tell you that or describe hades/sheol as the realm of the dead?

Doesnt that mean that those who dont die avoid it?

It also gave examples of men that did not die and it does not say they go to sheol....similarly, others who wont die, it says what will happen to them....KingK even clarified that.



thank God you maintain that.
You said in one of your posts that 'there are some who dont live after the first judgment that will live after the second....and you went further to say that they are in hades, sea etc'

I just reminded you of your former statement so you wont mince words.

Now that we have agreed that hades is purgatorium in latin which means purgatory in english.

Now, do you have an evidence from that passage that supports that some will be sent to purification (in purgatory) after the first jugdment....or is the evidence in your church's oral tradition?


we'll know who shys away in the end.

Do you say 1Cor 3 is talking only about judgement; judgement and its aftermath; or you dont know?

I have been asking this for almost a week now.

adsonstone:

who it is they believe: their Patriachs (bishops)

how they believe:
they believe the church was built on Peter's confession of faith.
Their same bishops that confess the same as Peter is his successor and not different from him (Peter).

How it conflicts with your position:
you believe the church is built on a man- Peter

You believe He's first pope and see him as leader of the other apostles. They believe He's not superior to any of the other apostles....and that they're all equal....so as their bishops are today.
You believe Francis is the head- The church is on him and hes not equal to your other bishops...he's superior.

I'm open to corrections on catholic positions and pls, be kind to clarify the position if I've made any error

Please what is the significance of this Orthodox matter?

italo:
Please what is the significance of this Orthodox matter?

we want to know who to believe.... The Roman Catholic or the Orthodox cos you're both Claiming 'successorship'

italo:

Do you say 1Cor 3 is talking only about judgement; judgement and its aftermath; or you dont know?

I have been asking this for almost a week now.

we have agreed that the passage (1 Cor 3:13-15) talks about Judgment....and reward.
Now, the bone of contention:

what is this reward and what is the 'saved as through fire'

you said reward= Heaven (aftermath).
I insisted that it isnt specified...so, I cant conclude.

'Saved as through fire'
You said purgatory,
I said judgment.

Of course we tested both and purgatory was found to be 'without sense' in that passage.

....and I have told you (not once, not twice) that I cant conclude cos it remains unspecified.
Perhaps, If I study more and gain more insight, there might be a conclusion.

.....by the way, have you cunningly bowed in shame by diverting to this topic?
What happened to all whats in the post you quoted?
You gave a reply not relating to what you quoted.

adsonstone:

we want to know who to believe.... The Roman Catholic or the Orthodox cos you're both Claiming 'successorship'

Why should we bother our heads when you have absolutely no regard for apostolic succession?

You believe in those who set up their private businesses and call it God's Church.