beejaay:

are u directly saying that Meccans agression towards the prophet during the early days of Islam was right cos he Muhammed was also commiting Treason by preaching that which contradict the practise of the traditional meccans..... there is a saying that says"he who want equity must come to equity wth clean hands".. if the early muslim fight against their persecution by meccans because they are propagating their own religion (if God could called the meccans unbelievers for persecuting the early muslim as apostate), people should have right to accept or de-accpet (english hard ooo) whatever they want and they have the right to propagate that which they believe in without persecution (cs Prophet Muhammed also said unpainted words to the pagans of meccans threatening them will hellfire of different kinds)...

there is nothing like Islamic state (Islamic state simply means no free-will again which go against the preaching of the Quran)

usisky:
2)ADULTERY:
According to your man-made shareeah, married adulterers should be buried and stoned to death, according to the hadith, Muhammad did same. But according to the Teachings of the messenger in the Quran, adultery of any form is only punishable by giving hundred lashes to parties involved(24:2). Are you truly "Obeying" the Messenger?[b] And according to the Hadiths, a goat ate the verse of stonning. [/b]What an Evil Lie!!

tiarabubu:


Tbaba cannot clearly defend his position without saying "Christians too did it". Well, Usermane, a Muslim, has given you a very good answer. And I hope you can learn from him the fine art of focused debates.

I find this debate really interesting because the killing of apostates is one of the major source of friction between Islam and the rest of the world.
It doesn't shock me that in this day and age tbaba will believe in these inhuman, violent and cruel practices - threatening and killing apostates. I cant imagine how confusing a man can be trying to project the benevolence and beauty of Islam and at the same time agreeing that apostates could be threatened and killed.

I have been following Usisky and Usermane for sometime. I intend to research their opinions deeper. interesting......

beejaay:

it baffles me alot..when you are having discussion with muslims, they instantly quote from the bible to justify whatever u are saying (thinking that u are a xtian) and the xtians will quickly refer you to quran to also justifies theirs when u are having discussion with them (thinking that u are a muslim)....then i ask myself cant the Bible or Quran stand alone why must they always look for conviction and supporter from what they dont believe in?? why must they always look for ways to run from your observation and discussion with them by trying to make it a war btw xtainity versus islam


any body that support killing of apostate is a terrorist..if tbaba support this then he is a terrorist and as bad as shekau and osama bin laden

maclatunji: ^#Yawns

mazaje:

You believe apostates should be killed?. . .Why don't you just state it clearly instead of yawning all over the place. . .

maclatunji:

My position on the matter is well documented. Hence, I can yawn all-I-want.

Coco diva: This topic is neither a misconception,nor is it open for debate. The issue of apostasy in Islam is clear. It is death in an islamic state. It is amazing how people who claim to be muslims,but in reality are outside the fold of Islam either knowingly or unknowingly to them go around misleading people and throwing doubts into their hearts concerning the deen. I'm not surprised anyway,when it involves people that belittle the hadith of the prophet (SAW) , and those who rely upon the Qur'an alone as their source of guidance. I smell deviant sects around! You lots should seek repentance of Allah and ask for guidance from Him.

RoyPCain: any matter legislated in Islam it is not usually completely grasped without adequate and relevant knowledge and of course belief that God knows All and Best. to the untrained eyes and tainted mind, apostasy is not always when somebody abandoned Islam. it must include deception and insurrection after leaving Islam.

it is true that there is no compulsion in religion [Surah 2]. it is also true that God speaks about those that make their entering and leaving Islam so frequently that it becomes like a joke, thereby God may just reject their reversion [Surah 4]. however, the live and let live position of Islam [Surah 109] is evidential for the superiority of Islam, playing out for all to see the best quality of mankind according to freedom to choose [freewill].




Surah 25/68-70 caution man not to involve indiscriminate killing.

Surah 5/32 tells us the two types of people that can legally be killed; the killer and the one spreading corruption. not all apostates [if you mean those who leave islam] spread corruption in the land.





those who are saying that it is Quran only, you are wrong because you couldn't practice Islam if the prophet [SA] by his hadith/sunnah explains the daily salat, how many rakats are in salatul magrib if you rely on Quran alone whereas Allah says take what the prophet [SA] gives you and abstain from what he forbids you.


there is no way a verse is missing from the Quran or any that is not supposed to be in it is in it because Allah says "We are the Revealer of this revelation and We shall protect it".

RoyPCain: @cloudstar; thanks for asking about my religion. your contribution is appreciated and understood your position taking into consideration that you are not a muslim. muslim does need to have knowledge of hadith before making proper decision of its meaning. bottomline about hadith is that it that it must mot be against the Quran if you are to consider it for its authenticity. any hadith that contradicts the verse of the Quran that it seems to explain, is not remotely authentic.


note that the 3 'hadiths' [i believe only the first qualifies as hadith] are not disagreeing with what i presented as argument ofor what category of apostate that can be killed. Ali burning the 'atheists' has explanation that is very profound because the atheists are so because they have made Ali their "God", warning them rigorously against such a horror of speech resorting to burning them for their evil. you notice that they were spreading corruption, putting Ali [RA] in the center similar how christians are doing about Jesus [AS]. the last about the jew was not because the jew left Islam, but because he was undermining Islam by spreading lies and rumors and wishing it destroyed. people left Islam in the time of the prophet [SA], returning to their family in Makka. Allah revealed a verse of Mercy upon them that there is chance to repent and come back to guidance. one of them, Umar Khattab [RA] gave his camel or horse for the journey back to Makka. The "warrior" Umar Khattab [RA] didn't go after him for his property, the 'ride', but sent the verse as a message to the 'apostate' who upon hearing it returned knowing fully well that hope for mankind is Islam.


you need to look at the best meaning [the one that the prophet [SA] presented] of both Quran, as from it all true sunnah or hadith is the tutorial. I wish the muslims, including me are not behaving badly. the correct religion/way ordained by God, if you believe God and that He presented a way upon mankind, it is Islam. don't die without being upon it at death.

Coco diva: This topic is neither a misconception,nor is it open for debate. The issue of apostasy in Islam is clear. It is death in an islamic state. It is amazing how people who claim to be muslims,but in reality are outside the fold of Islam either knowingly or unknowingly to them go around misleading people and throwing doubts into their hearts concerning the deen. I'm not surprised anyway,when it involves people that belittle the hadith of the prophet (SAW) , and those who rely upon the Qur'an alone as their source of guidance. I smell deviant sects around! You lots should seek repentance of Allah and ask for guidance from Him.

Fkforyou: Wat an intresting debate,I think this issue/misconception should be clearly sorted out so that most peepz like us can learn,but it seems the debate has bin one-sided.

What you believe is irrelevant my friend. I am quoting from Al-Bukhari (An authoritative hadith & narration of the Sunnah of Mohammad). So, you can play pretend and tell me what hadith you can choose to believe and not to believe - that doesn't change the fact that the Hadith is authentic and is adhered by all the schools and scholars of Islam of which you are the least.

As a former Muslim that studied his Quran and Hadith; I know that there are several practices of muslims that are not in the Quran. For example:

1. Praying 5 times a day is not taught or recorded in the Quran; yet Muslims obey this commandment: If Muslims followed your line of thought, they probably wouldn't be doing this
2. The pilgrimage to Mecca: This is not taught in the Quran as well.

Whether you believe in Ali or not is your cup of tea. It only shows you are a Sunni muslim that disdain his fellow Shia/Shitte brothers smiley. I wouldn't wish Islam on my enemy. As a former muslim and now a free thinker - Islam & the sunnah of Mohammad doesn't present a case for a decent religion.

RoyPCain: @cloudstar; the five prayers from Quran is right there. Subh/Fajr, Dhur and Isha are mentioned about when you can shed your garment at rest time in Surah Muminu. Asr is mentioned along with Dhur as daylight time prayers not prayer, but prayers. Magrib is mentioned as time for breaking of fast, the time you remain in Masjid to in Ramadhan. these salawat were repeat in allegorical kind of ways, more than once. of course your disbelieving heart will not let you see 'pray in the early hour of the morning, pray in the daylight time hours, pray early night and in the night and none of these prayers is a sunnah or nafil. There is surah Fajr. There is surah Asr.

and the pilgrimage is mentioned in Surah Baqarah so much so the manaset [method is indicated], to include the prayer; Rabbanah attinah fi duniyah hassanattan, wa fil akhiratti hassanattan wa kina adhabanaar, which is completely different from the prayers of the people that will not inherit good after this life, since what they ask, always is of this world because of their disbelief. you need to read surah As Saffat [around verse 109] where the mentioned of slaughter is left as a memorial for prophet Ibrahim [AS]. there is maqam Ibrahim [station of Ibrahim [AS] mentioned to show that he and his family [Ismail [AS] and his mother are prominent in matters of the Hajj. there is a surah named Hajj.

did you notice that you are an evidence that not all apostate are killed? your heart sway so much that it pushes you out of Islam? surah Nisaa verse 137 leaves the window open for your returning.


and if a hadith is opposing Quran, one realizes that it is not truly authentic. by the hadith is saying of the prophet [SA] or what was said in his presence and he did not object to it. same is sunnah. Bukhari can be questioned if it is against Quran. Quran cant be questioned because all know that it is the Supreme Speech of God. scholar can make mistakes, if the sahabah made mistakes [sahabah were bigger scholars compared to the scholarship after them. after all the sahabah [RA] had the master of mankind [SA] as their teacher]

cloudstar:

If they are there:

1. Please provide the Surah and verses so we can confirm
2. If the instruction to travel to Mecca of the Hajj is in the Quran, please state it

Remember, please state exactly where it says - pray 5 times and day and travel to Mecca for the Hajj as well. We are not referring to the Quran MENTIONING those words but a clear instruction. You are here talking about the Quran mentioning; I am talking about the instruction to pray 5 times and travel to the Hajj as a tenant that is clearly stated and taught in the Hadith.

All the Sunni and Shia schools of jurisprudence agrees that apostates should be killed and so does the Hadiths. Coming here to claim otherwise means you don't read your Hadith Bros.

Al-Bukhari is ONE OF THE MOST AUTHENTIC HADITHS and sources of Sunnah that every muslim follows. It is only muslims like yourself who wants to score cheap religious points will ignore the Hadiths. Since you wanted a verse from the Quran to prove instruction to kill apostates, here you go for your reading pleasure

Surah (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."

I encourage you to read your Quran Oga

cloudstar:
Since you wanted a verse from the Quran to prove instruction to kill apostates, here you go for your reading pleasure
Surah (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."

usisky:

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Peace MR. I really wish you had been a little patient(or maybe sincere) to have read just a couple more verses following your quotation,
you would've seen the author you (mis)quoted provide you with the context which you never considered....

[Quran 4:89] .....If they turn against you, you shall fight them, and you may kill them when you encounter them in war. You shall not accept them as friends, or allies.

[Quran 4:90] Exempted are those who join people with whom you have signed a peace treaty, and those who come to you wishing not to fight you, nor fight their relatives. Had GOD willed, He could have permitted them to fight against you. Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.

[Quran 4:91] You will find others who wish to make peace with you, and also with their people. However, as soon as war erupts, they fight against you. Unless these people leave you alone, offer you peace, and stop fighting you, you may fight them when you encounter them. Against these, we give you a clear authorization.


Deduction from the above:

1)A 'go-ahead' instruction was issued to the prophet and his followers to fight a certain disbelieving people. During such encounter,
the disbelievers may be killed(4:89).

2)But who are these disbelieving people? Answer in 4:90
a)they are aggressing people.
b)they fight the prophet, kill his followers and their relatives.

Once they(disbelievers) quit fighting, oppressing and killing the innocent people(prophet and followers)-categorically-God says they
should also refrain from fighiting such disbelievers(4:90).

3)For as long as the disbelievers persist in their old ways of aggression and fighting the innocent folks, the command to be stern towards
them remains valid(4:91)

Another verse to consider:
[Quran 2:193] You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.

The crowning verses: Basic Law Regulating Relations With Unbelievers

[Quran 60:8-9] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable. GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.


I hope you understand? Stop reading the Quran upside down(like the people who we're trying to educate here), you can't get the message that way. Peace!!!


www.submission.org
www.masjidtucson.org
www.miracleof19.org
www.quranalone.com

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usermane:

Also i recommend three books for you:

1. Hadith: A Re-evaluation
By Kassim Ahmed.

2. The Qur'an: Sufficient as a Source of Islamic Legislation.
By Dr. Ahmed Subhy Mansour.

3. Hadith As Scripture.
By Aisha Musa.

All are available in pdf on google, for free.

cloudstar:

Another one of the copy and paste Muslims. Welcome to the thread!. The context of verses in the Quran is clearly explained in the Hadith and it tells you why. If you want me to engage you, I will be happy to

usisky:

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copy and paste?! Do yourself a favor: At least try to find out a little about the person you think you want to engage in a debate with...Start
by clicking on my profile.

#Just an advise, Sir!
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And complete the Hajj and 'umrah for Allah . But if you are prevented, then [offer] what can be obtained with ease of sacrificial animals. And do not shave your heads until the sacrificial animal has reached its place of slaughter. And whoever among you is ill or has an ailment of the head [making shaving necessary must offer] a ransom of fasting [three days] or charity or sacrifice. And when you are secure, then whoever performs 'umrah [during the Hajj months] followed by Hajj [offers] what can be obtained with ease of sacrificial animals. And whoever cannot find [or afford such an animal] - then a fast of three days during Hajj and of seven when you have returned [home]. Those are ten complete [days]. This is for those whose family is not in the area of al-Masjid al-Haram. And fear Allah and know that Allah is severe in penalty.

Establish regular prayers at
the sun's decline till the darkness of the night,
and the morning prayer and reading:
for the prayer and reading in the morning
carry their testimony. (78)

And pray in the early parts
of the morning: (it would be)
an additional prayer (or spiritual profit) for thee:
soon will thy Lord raise thee
to a station of Praise and Glory! (79)

[24:58-59, quran.com, Translation: Sahih International]

O you who have believed, let those whom your right hands possess and those who have not [yet] reached puberty among you ask permission of you [before entering] at three times: before the dawn prayer and when you put aside your clothing [for rest] at noon and after the night prayer. [These are] three times of privacy for you. There is no blame upon you nor upon them beyond these [periods], for they continually circulate among you – some of you, among others. Thus does Allah make clear to you the verses; and Allah is Knowing and Wise.

And when the children among you reach puberty, let them ask permission [at all times] as those before them have done. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses; and Allah is Knowing and Wise.

5- Chapter: 2 , Verse: 238

attend constantly to prayers and to the middle prayer and stand up truly obedient to Allah

9- Chapter: 4 , Verse: 101

and when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer, if you fear that those who disbelieve will cause you distress, surely the unbelievers are your open enemy

3- Chapter: 4 , Verse: 103

then when you have finished the prayer, remember allah standing and sitting and reclining; but when you are secure (from danger) keep up prayer; surely prayer is a timed ordinance for the believers

haji and acrefice; surah baqarah verse 196;

there are many verses also talking about details of hajj to include the going around the kaaba, the running between safa and marwa, the station of Ibrahim [AS] where he prayed and each hajji is required to do the same. the gathering on mount araf is also indicated being the hajj itself, no hajj for the one that misses this event.

as to salat; surah isra speaks of prayers in daylight time till sun sets to cover dhur, asr and magrib; it covers fajr or subh as well, being the very early morning prayer ending when the sun begins to be visible as in rising.

evidently, if things are not in the most elementary presentation you dont understand it because it becomes hard, advance and cloudy.

Allah talks about middle prayer to indicate the commanded daily prayers are odd number amount ; i bet you know the middle prayers thereby giving us the names of the salat before and after to see if you know what is meant by 'middle prayer'.

Allah talks about shortening prayers to indicate not subh and magrib, but others;

the timing of salat is mentioned indicating specific time for each salah; oro you know the ting as demad in the Quran provided to us by the legislation of the messenger [SA] under the commandment of Allah?

by cloudstar: 7:53am
RoyPCain

haji and sacrefice; surah baqarah verse 196;

there are many verses also talking about details of hajj to include the going around the kaaba, the running between safa and marwa, the station of Ibrahim [AS] where he prayed and each hajji is required to do the same. the gathering on mount araf is also indicated being the hajj itself, no hajj for the one that misses this event.


You keep missing my point. My point is simple, not all the 5 pillars of Islam are not direct instructions you find in the Quran. For example, the Hajj & Salaat. There is no where in the Quran where it is taught that the Hajj is one of the 5 pillars of Islam. My argument has nothing to do with the mention of the word "Hajj" in the Quran

as to salat; surah isra speaks of prayers in daylight time till sun sets to cover dhur, asr and magrib; it covers fajr or subh as well, being the very early morning prayer ending when the sun begins to be visible as in rising.

The Quran covers praying 3 times a day and NOT 5. The Hadith covers praying 5 times a day. Again, this has always been my stand. Certain instructions are not comprehensive or stated in the Quran but are clearly mentioned and expounded on in the Hadiths such as the Shahada, Salaat and others.

evidently, if things are not in the most elementary presentation you dont understand it because it becomes hard, advance and cloudy.


I am following facts stated both in the Quran and Hadith - you are the one adding additional interpretation to them

Chapter 17 verse 78 "Establish regular prayers at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night,
and the morning prayer and reading: for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony. (78) "

Allah talks about middle prayer to indicate the commanded daily prayers are odd number amount ; i bet you know the middle prayers thereby giving us the names of the salat before and after to see if you know what is meant by 'middle prayer'.


Please show me in the Quran where Muslims are taught to pray 5 times a day

Allah talks about shortening prayers to indicate not subh and magrib, but others;


Irrevelant

the timing of salat is mentioned indicating specific time for each salah; or you know the ting as demand in the Quran provided to us by the legislation of the messenger [SA] under the commandment of Allah?


Again, where are muslims taught to pray 5 TIMES in the Quran