And yet still no PEER REVIEWED sources that refute mines.

shymexx: @kidstrangehold

This guy's brain is obviously oversaturated with junk - your rebuttal isn't worth quoting, to be honest. I didn't even want to extend the debate to show you that those black tribes in India are actually negroids, who migrated over there.

It isn't worth quoting because you can't refute a single thing I posted but only project like you keep doing. Your argument isn't worth anything, as seen by you keep using the word NEGROID which has a RACIST origin. But the reason why I am continuing this debate so people don't take what you say seriously and to know that all of your points have been countered. I'm actually being selfless and doing this for the greater good, when I can just play some Grand Theft Auto V right now, now that I'm off from college.

shymexx:
The ancient Kush kingdom (kush means black) actually went as far as southern mesopotamia and white Nile Basin, all the way to the Indian subcontinent - down to the red sea and gulf of Aden. And the kushites were pure Africans.

No sh*t the Kushites were African. But wheres proof the went all the way to MESOPOTAMIA!!!!?

The Kushites of the 25th dynasty left behind MANY historic and none state such what your saying.

shymexx:
Anyway, let this was I said you're ret.arded, since you're back to twist your stupidity.

I said:

And genetically speaking, those who occupied middle east at that point in history, are related to the people in ancient Egypt and Nubia. They all followed the flow of the Nile River to settle in different parts of the present day middle east.

And you said:

By saying that you're agreeing with Eurocentrics that the Ancient Egyptians were the result of migrations happening from the North and that they were Eurasian people.

Subsequently, I had to correct you that the Nile River flows from South to North, hence why the people migrated from the South out to the present day middle east region. This was to counter your stupid assertion about North to South migration.

You didn't correct sh*t...And stop insulting my intelligence by saying I don't know how the Nile River flows.

Again you intellectually challenged person. YOU said the early Near Easteners and Egyptians were the same and that they migrated up the Nile. You're basically saying that all of the early Near Easteners were Ancient Egyptians and that they settled in the Middle East. There is no PROOF of that ever happened. I already told you that the Ancient Egyptians only RECENTLY first settled in the Levant when the 19th dynasty conquered parts of the Levant.

shymexx:
I'm done with this junk - you're not worth debating. You posted a lot of crap that's not even worth debating.

Stop whining...You couldn't even debunk a single thing I posted. All you did was project and trash talk, not only that you were clueless on this argument/subject. Again show me a study that says those early middle easterners were genetically related to Africans. I'll wait(again).

shymexx:
However, I'll leave you with the map of the ancient kush kingdom

LOL!!!!

Where the heck did you get that map from!? Link me a source! These are the farthest extenson of the Kush Kingdom:





Lol...No sources state they ever expanded into Arabia. And trust me like I said the 25th dynasty left behind MANY records.

This clown also posted a race classification chart that grouped North Africans caucasoids when most North Africans, despite their admixture are more closely related to Subsaharan Africans than caucasians or ME Arabs.

The Berbers for example are so diverse that even the Tauregs (who are mostly blacks) are also Berbers. There are black Libyans, Nubians in Egypt, a lot black moors in Morrocco and tons of native black people in Tunisia.

Stop posting Eurocentric junk, mate!!!

Radoillo: LOL....I tell u one thing, Kid. They'll come back.

I want to know your take on something more directly related to this here topic, though. This whole thing began when I disagreed with Shymmexx's assertion that the ancient Jebusites were black. Jebusites were, it appears, part of the Bronze Age Canaanite culture complex.

While there's vestigial evidence of dark- or black-skinned people in large swathes of Asia in pre-historic times (eg, the so-called Australoids), do you think Bronze-Age Canaanites (of about 3,000 to about 1,000BC) were black in any sense of the word 'black'....and do you think its tenable for any West African group to trace its descent from them?

Like I said Shymexx seems to lash out on anyone who has a different view than him.

As for your post. Yes Asia was inhabited by black skinned people, but what Shymexx and others appear not to get is that they were not related to Africans. People need to understand that phenotype does not correlate with ones genetics. As for the Canaanites...I don't know, they could have looked black or white but wouldn't be related to African. From I see they were just Near Easterners.

As for West Africans being descendants from them? That's just laughable...The only Africans that have a higher chance of being descedants of them is Africans like Ethiopians/Somalis or modern day Nubians due to close contacts. There are no historic sources what so ever of Canaanite people ever migrating as far as to West Africa in Ancient times. We should just look at reality...

This character can't be serious...When I was the one who corrected PAGAN and Randiolli on the Berbers being African. Just ask Randiolli! I was the FIRST person on this thread to say the Berbers were related to other Africans. Give up with the nonsense. Yes the chart is Eurocentrics but it was to show you that Africans were DISTANT from Pacific Islanders. It still doesn't proof your point since you still have not posted a study which agrees with your claim that black asians are related to Africans.

shymexx: This clown also posted a race classification chart that grouped North Africans caucasoids when most North Africans, despite their admixture are more closely related to Subsaharan Africans than caucasians or ME Arabs.

The Berbers for example are so diverse that even the Tauregs (who are mostly blacks) are also Berbers. There are black Libyans, Nubians in Egypt, a lot black moors in Morrocco and tons of native black people in Tunisia.

Stop posting Eurocentric junk, mate!!!

A guy that using outdated racist terms such as Negroid is telling me not to post Eurocentric junk. Really?

KidStranglehold:

Sorry I don't get my sources from a kids bed time story book, which says a man separated an ocean. According to the Bible humans were created 6,000 years ago as a result of Adam and Eve. While science says humans(homo sapiens) arosed 200k years ago or much earlier. You take your pick. Science? Or a kid bedtime story?


I'm losing my mind? Pff...You lost your indignous religion which was forced onto your ancestors. Thats if you are of West/Central descent and not Ethiopian.

btw Ethiopians were Pagans too, before the arrival of Judaism.

What's racist about saying "negroid" but saying "caucasoid" or "Australoid" is alright?

You're just are trashy as your rebuttals.

Can you see I'm not responding to non of the crap you keep posting?

shymexx:
The Berbers for example are so diverse that even the Tauregs (who are mostly blacks) are also Berbers. There are black Libyans, Nubians in Egypt, a lot black moors in Morrocco and tons of native black people in Tunisia.

Stop posting Eurocentric junk, mate!!!

Black Tuarges are not Pure Tuaregs. They are "Bella" (descendants of Tuareg slaves captured in the past), and are mainly of Songhay and sometimes Fula descents.

KidStranglehold:

This character can't be serious...When I was the one who corrected PAGAN and Randiolli on the Berbers being African. Just ask Randiolli! I was the FIRST person on this thread to say the Berbers were related to other Africans. Give up with the nonsense. Yes the chart is Eurocentrics but it was to show you that Africans were DISTANT from Pacific Islanders. It still doesn't proof your point since you still have not posted a study which agrees with your claim that black asians are related to Africans.

A guy that using outdated racist terms such as Negroid is telling me not to post Eurocentric junk. Really?

You just accepted that the chart you posted is pure bs - so why did you post it?

Everything else you posted is just as crappy as that chart. Africans ruled the whole of the middle east including every darn place in the Arabian pennisula, up to the India subcontinent in prehistoric time, before Caucasians left the caves around 2000BC.

If they could travel all the way to the Americas, what makes you think they wouldn't have traveled to the other side?

I'm done with this.

PAGAN 9JA:



Black Tuarges are not Pure Tuaregs. They are "Bella" (descendants of Tuareg slaves captured in the past), and are mainly of Songhay and sometimes Fula descents.

Wheres proof that the Tuaregs are not pure Tuaregs? Yes Songhay were slaves to Tuaregs, but the black looking Tuaregs are not recent slaves. Its actually the white looking ones and white looking Berbers in general that are not real Berbers, but are actually descendant of European slaves and expelled muslims from Southern Europe. Which again is why you won't find any historical records of any white looking Berbers prior to the 15/16th century.

And there is no such thing as pure Berber. Historians are starting to agree that Tuaregs are descendants of the Garamanetes(an Ancient Saharan civilizations) and the Garamentes were guess what? Black according to historians.

shymexx:

You just accepted that the chart you posted is pure bs - so why did you post it?

Everything else you posted is just as crappy as that chart. Africans ruled the whole of the middle east including every darn place in the Arabian pennisula, up to the India subcontinent in prehistoric time, before Caucasians left the caves around 2000BC.

If they could travel all the way to the Americas, what makes you think they wouldn't have traveled to the other side?

I'm done with this.

Blah blah blah blah!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GfscmQoqaE


Where's your PEER REVIEWED sources that refute mines?? Still waiting(again).

PAGAN 9JA:



Black Tuarges are not Pure Tuaregs. They are "Bella" (descendants of Tuareg slaves captured in the past), and are mainly of Songhay and sometimes Fula descents.

Yea....Actually, I have read that Tuaregs, especially in Niger, are composed (to a very significant extent) of Berberized people who originally belonged to such diverse West African ethnicities as Songhay and Tibbu.

The Tuareg who where the dark blue indigo veils are supposed to be the Nobles. You will often see the light skinned or fair skinned and the extremely black wearing other colors such as white or black. Most Tuareg who wear the indigo veil are the color of Northern Sudanese dark brown and of course closer to black than white.

Something like this:


Tuareg are divided into classes or castes including vassals of Nilo-Saharan descent and slaves. Some of the Tuareg are said to have mixed with Syrians and Turks in Libya and to have setttled southward in Midieval times. This is where some of the lighter skinned Tuareg originate.

There are few fair skinned Tuareg compared to the darker indigo wearing Tuareg. There are no truly white Tuareg although a few pale ones or mixed with Caucasians are among them as Ibn Butlan of the 11th century once mentioned was the situation of the Berbers of his time.

Of course the term white in Africa means a lot different than it does in the West. In Africa of course even a Fulani or Sarakholle can be by tradition a "white man" , so it really matters what the bloggers meant.

Tuareg are divided into the Sanhaja remnant of the Lamtuna and Ilam the Ifuraces or Iforas Berbers known as Mauri to the Romans and Mazikes or Ethiopians of the coast and desert East of Egypt as well as the Makhuritae or Makhuraba of Libya and Nubia.

Eastern branches of the Tuareg are called Makitan a remnant of the Mucutateni or Uakutameni or later Ketama of coastal North Africa whose color was "like that of the Ethiopians".

KidStranglehold:

Wheres proof that the Tuaregs are not pure Tuaregs? Yes Songhay were slaves to Tuaregs, but the black looking Tuaregs are not recent slaves. Its actually the white looking ones and white looking Berbers in general that are not real Berbers, but are actually descendant of European slaves and expelled muslims from Southern Europe. Which again is why you won't find any historical records of any white looking Berbers prior to the 15/16th century.

And there is no such thing as pure Berber. Historians are starting to agree that Tuaregs are descendants of the Garamanetes(an Ancient Saharan civilizations) and the Garamentes were guess what? Black according to historians.

There is proof. You can go ask these Black Tuaregs yourself. THey call themselves Bella and they know they are descended from slaves.
I am from the NOrth and I know what im talking about.

The Pure Amazigh Tuareg will be like the colour below.

To be honest with you, I dont consider Tuareg 100% related to Berber. In my opinion, they lie somewhere in the between.

Their customs, etc., are very different from the settled Berber.

There is no white-looking Tuareg. I have never seen many. Jus 1 pic that has been circulating throughout Nairaland.

Tuareg are sand-coloured. Almost like Bedu Arabs.

PAGAN 9JA:


There is proof. You can go ask these Black Tuaregs yourself. THey call themselves Bella and they know they are descended from slaves.
I am from the NOrth and I know what im talking about.

The Pure Amazigh Tuareg will be like the colour below.

To be honest with you, I dont consider Tuareg 100% related to Berber. In my opinion, they lie somewhere in the between.

Their customs, etc., are very different from the settled Berber.

There is no white-looking Tuareg. I have never seen many. Jus 1 pic that has been circulating throughout Nairaland.

Tuareg are sand-coloured. Almost like Bedu Arabs.

Read my post above.

KidStranglehold: The Tuareg who where the dark blue indigo veils are supposed to be the Nobles. You will often see the light skinned or fair skinned and the extremely black wearing other colors such as white or black. Most Tuareg who wear the indigo veil are the color of Northern Sudanese dark brown and of course closer to black than white.

Something like this:


Tuareg are divided into classes or castes including vassals of Nilo-Saharan descent and slaves. Some of the Tuareg are said to have mixed with Syrians and Turks in Libya and to have setttled southward in Midieval times. This is where some of the lighter skinned Tuareg originate.

There are few fair skinned Tuareg compared to the darker indigo wearing Tuareg. There are no truly white Tuareg although a few pale ones or mixed with Caucasians are among them as Ibn Butlan of the 11th century once mentioned was the situation of the Berbers of his time.

Of course the term white in Africa means a lot different than it does in the West. In Africa of course even a Fulani or Sarakholle can be by tradition a "white man" , so it really matters what the bloggers meant.

Tuareg are divided into the Sanhaja remnant of the Lamtuna and Ilam the Ifuraces or Iforas Berbers known as Mauri to the Romans and Mazikes or Ethiopians of the coast and desert East of Egypt as well as the Makhuritae or Makhuraba of Libya and Nubia.

Eastern branches of the Tuareg are called Makitan a remnant of the Mucutateni or Uakutameni or later Ketama of coastal North Africa whose color was "like that of the Ethiopians".

That man in the pic is clearly Bella. He has not even draped the Tagelmust properly.


there is no such thing as white Tuareg and it is impossible they mixed with syrians and turks.

They are nomads and dont mingle much with city-dwellers.

You cant say the guy below is mixed with "syrian/turkish". LOL

THe Guy is the purest of the pure Tuareg you can find from the interior of the Sahel.


Another distinguishing fact about the bella is that , unlike the Pure Tuareg, most bella are not completely nomadic, and live in separate walled compounds.

PAGAN 9JA:



That man in the pic is clearly Bella. He has not even draped the Turban properly.


there is no such thing as white Tuareg and it is impossible they mixed with syrians and turks.

They are nomads and dont mingle much with city-dwellers.

Nope. The man in the pic is Northern Sudanese. I posted him to show the skin tone of the Tuaregs who wear the dark blue indigo veils.

KidStranglehold:

Nope. The man in the pic is Northern Sudanese. I posted him to show the skin tone of the Tuaregs who wear the dark blue indigo veils.

Yes I knew he was not Tuareg.

sometimes Tuareg men look dark, because the blue indigo dye gets onto their skin.

PAGAN 9JA:
You cant say the guy below is mixed with "syrian/turkish". LOL

THe Guy is the purest of the pure Tuareg you can find from the interior of the Sahel.


Another distinguishing fact about the bella is that , unlike the Pure Tuareg, most bella are not completely nomadic, and live in separate walled compounds.

There no such thing as a pure Tuareg and those Tuareg men don't even wear the dark blue indigo veils like the black looking ones do which is nobility.

As for Tuaregs not really being Berbers...That is incorrect. Based of this source, it mentions that the Tifinagh and Tamashek as Tuareg Berber languages are considered the OLDEST or most archaic variants of the Berber languages. The Tuareg are tied to ethnic groups in East Africa.

In the third millennium BC, proto-Berber speakers spread across the area from North Africa to Middle Kingdom of Egypt. In the last millennium BC, another Berber expansion created the Berber peoples noted in Roman records. The final spread occurred in the first millennium BC, when the Tuareg moved into the central Sahara, by then possessing camels

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Berber

My favourite Touareg Band, Tinariwen:

KidStranglehold:

There no such thing as a pure Tuareg and those Tuareg men don't even wear the dark blue indigo veils like the black looking ones do which is nobility.

Who told you that bullsh!t?

Ofcourse there are Tuareg with high-degree of purity, from places like Kidal, Agadez, Ahaggar, etc. like the ones I posted and then there are the significantly mixed bella.

THe indigo veil is not a sign of nobility. It is the commonest veil that is made in Nigeria, Kano.

Most of them wear indigo veils. I can post pics if you want.

KidStranglehold: As for Tuaregs not really being Berbers...That is incorrect. Based of this source, it mentions that the Tifinagh and Tamashek as Tuareg Berber languages are considered the OLDEST or most archaic variants of the Berber languages. The Tuareg are tied to ethnic groups in East Africa.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Berber

Dont base ethnicity on language all the time.

Again I said i believe it is so. I have my reasons.

Either that, or they split from other Berbers ages ago.

PAGAN 9JA:


Who told you that bullsh!t?

Ofcourse there are Tuareg with high-degree of purity, from places like Kidal, Agadez, Ahaggar, etc. like the ones I posted and then there are the significantly mixed bella.

THe indigo veil is not a sign of nobility. It is the commonest veil that is made in Nigeria, Kano.

Most of them wear indigo veils. I can post pics if you want.

No one. The dark indigo veils represent nobility.

You're contributing the majority of the black looking Tuaregs to slavery when the light skinned ones you keep posting are a result mixing between some Middle Eastern groups like I mentioned before.

The majority of Tuaregs don't even look like this.
www.nairaland.com/attachments/1429871_381157_235561049854830_281674634_n_jpgbb8ac3babe52b070e1f99285c4dab062

Yes they are a diverse group of people, but most I've seen look like this on average.


Mali:


Libya:

(There are no Songhays in Libya IIRC, so you can just explain away this man as a slave).





Niger:







Algeria:








I actually think on average, the Tuaregs retain most of the looks of the original Berbers.

PAGAN 9JA:


Dont base ethnicity on language all the time.

Again I said i believe it is so. I have my reasons.

Either that, or they split from other Berbers ages ago.

lol...This is too funny.

They never split from Berbers. That is something Eurocentrics love to say. Tuaregs unlike most Berber groups still retain most the traditions/culture and still have the Berber writing script called the Tifinagh which is the oldest of the Berbers. Believe what you want, I'm not saying you can't.

KidStranglehold:

No one. The dark indigo veils represent nobility.

You're contributing the majority of the black looking Tuaregs to slavery when the light skinned ones you keep posting are a result mixing between some Middle Eastern groups like I mentioned before.

The majority of Tuaregs don't even look like this.
www.nairaland.com/attachments/1429871_381157_235561049854830_281674634_n_jpgbb8ac3babe52b070e1f99285c4dab062

Yes they are a diverse group of people, but most I've seen look like this on average.


Mali:


Libya:

(There are no Songhays in Libya IIRC, so you can just explain away this man as a slave).





Niger:







Algeria:








I actually think on average, the Tuaregs retain most of the looks of the original Berbers.

That Libyan Tuareg is definitely not pure.

and most Libyan Tuaregs dont look like him.

check out the leaders of Ansar Dine and MNLA. you will know what Im talking about.

KidStranglehold:

lol...This is too funny.

They never split from Berbers. That is something Eurocentrics love to say. Tuaregs unlike most Berber groups still retain most the traditions/culture and still have the Berber writing script called the Tifinagh which is the oldest of the Berbers. Believe what you want, I'm not saying you can't.

Again we dont have proof. There is nothing funny about it.

Taureg culture is way too different from the culture of the City Berber.

Their dances, their clothes, lifestyle, etc., weverything is different.

You still dwell upon the language. Again Tamasheq is very different from standard Berber.

PAGAN 9JA:


Again we dont have proof. There is nothing funny about it.

Taureg culture is way too different from the culture of the City Berber.

Their dances, their clothes, lifestyle, etc., weverything is different.

You still dwell upon the language. Again Tamasheq is very different from standard Berber.

First off not all Berbers live in the City. Berbers are not one monolithic group. And how can Tuaregs be different from other Berbers when other Berbers have lost most of their traditions and custom for an Arabic or even European one...City Berbers are actually the ones who lost most o0f the Berber culture.

Again Tuaregs have the oldest Berber language and still use the written script.

ladionline: I don't follow 'politico' tradition. Ijebu is of the nexus of Oduduwa. The need to be different is not unconnected to the success of Awo's Egbe omo Oduduwa, which pitch great Ijebu against great Ife by 'lesser' remo (Awo) to Ijebu. The dilema of the time was how these two power blocs will see face to face, after the feud of 19th century, hence the ethical severance you are refering to. Awo differ to Ife in spirit of oneness of all Yoruba.

Please note an Ijebu person will make it clear to you that he or she is not a youruba person meaning not oduduwa linnage

the main fact abput the ijebu people is that they contributed to the civiliazation of Nigeria from the very onset

GoodlukJonathan: Ijebus are yorubad people and by implication, dunderheads!

They are not Jebusites

Ijebu are not youruba note that and stop saying what you dont know

PAGAN 9JA:


That Libyan Tuareg is definitely not pure.

and most Libyan Tuaregs dont look like him.

check out the leaders of Ansar Dine and MNLA. you will know what Im talking about.

And where is your proof that he is not? Most Libyan Tuaregs don't look like him?? What?? Libyan Tuaregs are seen as black in Libyan and are even discriminated against in Libya. But I wanna get to the main point.

Again like I said Tuaregs are likely descendants of Garamantes especially those from Libya. Guess what? The Ancient Garamantes were from Libya like those Libyan Tuaregs.

The best modern representatives of the Garamantes would be the people who live in their territory today.


Ghadames


Tuareg
[img]http://4.bp..com/-feh9zIeovuU/TYdja9-HwDI/AAAAAAAAEh8/TeYmoHMi3I8/s400/5543307177_9936a9c49d_b.jpg[/img]
[img]http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ2rMkrEogvdTtt-wVwK79RvOYLDz8XG8gESZOjMLoBG8gCisZQ[/img]


Toubou


As for the physical appearance of the Garamantes themselves, we do have descriptions from Greco-Roman authors as cited by Snowden:

KidStranglehold:

First off not all Berbers live in the City. Berbers are not one monolithic group. And how can Tuaregs be different from other Berbers when other Berbers have lost most of their traditions and custom for an Arabic or even European one...City Berbers are actually the ones who lost most o0f the Berber culture.

Again Tuaregs have the oldest Berber language and still use the written script.

You are generalizing. Im referring to Berbers such as the Kabyle Chaoui, etc.

They have retained most of their Berber customs and traditions. Today they are at the forefront of the pan-Berber movement.


WHen the Arabs invaded the maghreb, they were known to enslave Berber women and sell them or use them abroad, because of their beauty and colour.