Our brother said the following in his response 'Like i initially EMPHASIZED, God's law is not used for righteousness or salvation or justification. Man's obedience or study of God's law is not what brings salvation or justification.' If my brother truly believes this, then why quote this verse below to declare us unjust and unrighteous?

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Then again go ahead and say this 'It's your choice to make'?



That is a big contradiction but the truth is that this contradiction can't be helped. Tithe advocates know in their heart of hearts that Tithes is a part of the law (even though they'll have you believe otherwise) hence can't refrain from calling you unrighteous or unjust for not practicing it.

Thank God, we have something better. The finished work on the cross disannulled the law because the law had no power to make anybody perfect (Heb 7:18-19) hence Paul could say the following

Romans 10:4 KJV
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Christ ended the law when he declared it was finished on the cross of Calvary and it's in our best interest to believe him. He has made us free from the law by making us dead to it (Rom 7:4) therefore we are free from bondage according to this verse

Galatians 5:1 KJV
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

why then do our brethren insist on going back to the bondage that even the Jews in their glory couldn’t bear (Acts 15:10)? when its obvious they even break, disregard and mock the law they are trying to keep? Is it an attempt to fall from grace? Gal 5:4 says that's what we are doing if we try to get justified by practicing the law.

The law says the Sabbath is holy and if a man so much as picks sticks on the sabbath, he should be stoned to death, but grace allows me to rest or worship God on anyday i choose. The law says a male child must be circumcised otherwise he shall be cut off from the congregation of the people of God but grace says circumcision is worthless and avails nothing hence strictly my choice. The law says 10% to Levites, 10% for feast for my family and i and 10% to the destitute, but grace says i should love my fellow man like myself hence if he needs my 90%, i can give if i'm able to.No compulsion, No cajoling, No threats of hell or devourer. Freewill and liberty to do as the spirit leads just like the early Christians in Acts 2:45 and Acts 4:34-35. The Tithe law says all those who minister in the sanctuary and benefit from tithes MUST HAVE NO INHERITANCE but grace allows all who can to do so whether minister or members.

Love for one another is the new law Christ gave the Disciples (John 17:34-35) and it was re-echoed by Paul (Rom 13:8-10), James (James 2:8 ). See what John the beloved had to say

1 John 3:22-23 KJV
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. [23] And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

His commandment is to Love one another, not pay tithe. If you love your teacher/pastor, you'll give to him(Gal 6:6). If you love your neighbour , you'll give to him if he needs(1 John 3:17). If you Love Christ, you'll give to the destitute(Matt 25:35-40), NOT PAY TITHES to a pastor.
Our brethren who preach the tithe statute as necessary/compulsory part of Christian worship dont regard the law of God at all. All they do is disregard it, belittle it and mock it. Remember 1 Timothy 1:8

END

Presenting Point M2

JACOB’S VOW


Jacob’s vow was conditional (Gen. 28:20-22)

The next instance of tithing we find in God’s Word is found in Genesis 28. There, we read.

Genesis 28:11-15 And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep. And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

To think that the God of Heaven would visit with Jacob, a man who, by his own admission, had not even wanted God in his life.

“then shall the LORD be my God”

God, the Creator of Heaven and Earth,, visiting a man who didn’t even want to know God. Yet, Scripture says that is exactly what happened.

God visited him and revealed to him that many great things were about to happen in his life.

He promised

1. That the place where Jacob had laid down to rest would one day belong to Jacob
2. That ownership of the land would be handed down to Jacob’s descendants.
3. That the descendants of Jacob would be innumerable.
4. That Jacob’s family would increase and spread out in all directions from the point where Jacob was currently at.
5. That God would continually be with Jacob
6. That God would keep Jacob from harm wherever he traveled.
7. That God would bring him back to the land where Jacob was currently at.
8. That God will do the things He promised He would do for Jacob.

Genesis 28:20-22 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God: And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

Jacob’s vow was in response to the dream that Jacob had just awakened from. In his unusual dream


The above verses reveal to the reader that tithing could not have been a regular practice of Jacob prior to his promise.

For one, Jacob stated, “…; then shall the LORD be my God…” Evidently Jacob hadn't fully committed to the God of his fathers despite all that he must have learned at his parents feet. Jacob set forth conditions that God must first meet. If God would meet those conditions, then Jacob promised to God that he would give Him a tenth of all that he acquired.:

a) God must be with him in his travels
b) God must keep him safe in his travels
c) God must provide food for him in his travels
d) God must provide the clothing he needs
e) God must bring him back to Isaac’s house in peace

Jacob set up conditions, saying, “If God will…, then I will.” Many believe tithing was mandatory at that time and written in laws that pre-dated the Mosaic/Levitic Law. This cannot be the case. For if it were mandatory, surely God would have spoken up and told Jacob that he was to tithe whether conditions were met, or not. Also, we find no evidence of Jacob having been taught this “tithe of everything” from either his father Isaac (who is never mentioned to have tithed in the Word of God), or by his grandfather Abraham, of whom Scriptures only record having tithed spoils of war?

Jacob was a supplanter. That is what brought him to the place of desolation he was currently at. He had connived his father into blessing him with the birthright that belonged to his brother Esau. And Rebekkah knew for sure that if Esau caught him, Jacob would be dead. That is why she sent Jacob away. That is why he fled to find his uncle Laban that he might take refuge in Laban’s tent.


We find no evidence whatsoever of Jacob having fulfilled that vow that he made that day at Beth-El. Nor do we find any other instance of tithing being mentioned in the four hundred-sixty-three years between Jacob’s vow at Beth-El to the time of God instituting the tithes in the Mosaic/Levitic Law. But even if Jacob did give God a tenth of everything as he had promised, there is no evidence in the Word of God of tithes being commanded by God prior to the Mosaic/Levitic Law.

END

The Lord giveth His beloved sleep (Psalm 127:2)

Time for me to prove I am loved by God. I will rest now and be back in a few hours.

Be blessed.

Thank you Miwerds for your presentation and Candour for your response.

We await Image and Rhymey response to the presentation M2 which is to be up by 6am tomorrow.

Thank you Gentlemen.

To the moderators

It seems it is our turn to be 'amazed', this time at the silence of the moderators as our fellow discussants are bravenly flouting the thread rules. Of concern is this for instance;
1. During the discussion there shall be no insults, name calling, maligning, critic of churches or ministers, or any intentional bid to make an opponent look bad. The discuss shall be done with the utmost respect of each person involved - conveying the Christian spirit of love. If anyone feels insulted, he shall be reporting the matter to the moderator; who holds the right to call the other person to order. If this is repeated by the same individual who does not take to correction, the discuss shall be suspended to allow for a replacement of that person.

Candour in RESPONSE TO RESPONSE OF REBUTTAL R2 severally disregarded and disrespected this. i'm not deceiving myself into thinking that these my brothers would obey rules, but at least we expect some measure of restraint or caution from the moderators so that the thread retains some semblance of purpose. This is not JSS 2A versus JSS 3B. That response is not a response at all, at least not to response of rebuttal R2. A response is an answer to something. When someone gives as a response, all he knows about number 1, number 2, number 3 and even outside the syllabus, and he gives it as answer to number 1. i do not think that is a response. i do not know the teacher that takes or marks that as a correct response/answer.
Candour's response contains so much insinuations, maligning, and intentional attempts to make opponents look bad. there was no respect or christianity in it. It was just all the allegations against the tithe, jumbled and bundled up. Many of the things we have not even said, but hetried to make it look like we've said them.
None of us(Image123 or Rhymejohn) have INSISTED on tithing in this thread or affirmed that Jesus endorsed tithing for the Christian thereby condemning those who don’t. On the contrary, Candour is well aware that i do not condemn anyone for not tithing. Why then is he nailing this allegations to "our brothers"?
He says we seem not to be sure who to tithe to and he is ready to reproduce them here for all to see. Where did he get this seemings? What sort of disrespect is that? i do not think the discussion should be a deliberate attempt to misconstrue other's words, or put them out of context in an attempt to score points. Those are just my thoughts anyway, i hope for something deeply christian not just superficial.
Statements like our brethren insist on going back to the bondage or Our brethren who preach the tithe statute as necessary/compulsory part of Christian worship dont regard the law of God at all. All they do is disregard it, belittle it and mock it.
i do hope the moderators do not just gloss over them or thank them for it, if indeed there are rules agreed to in the first page.

Rhymejohn should be sending in our Rebutting M2 soon. Thanks.

I tender my apologies if i made our fellow discussants look bad. It sure wasn't intentional. I won't start making excuses but would want to affirm that i'm as interested in making this discussion as clean and rancour free as possible and so would not want to deliberately derail the flow, mutual respect and maturity we've all displayed so far.

Once again, i apologise

Rebutting M2

We should remember that we are not exactly discussing Jacob in detail but discussing tithe. It is a discuss on tithing, not a discuss on the sinful life of Jacob. Jacob's example affords the reader the opportunity to KNOW that there was tithe before the time of Moses. It is as simple as that. It's unfortunate that most people against the tithe will try to paint to everyone that anything tithe is only under the law of Moses, and that any period outside the time of Moses to calvary is not to be regarded. They tell that your tithe MUST conform to Moses or else, it is not acceptable. Acceptable by who exactly? When we remind them that there was tithe BEFORE Moses, then they come out boldly to state that tithing was a common practice even among pagans, and that it is not God but an example gotten from pagans. Well, Abraham is not a pagan, neither is Jacob. Our God, Jehovah remains the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Genesis 28 is Scripture, and divinely inspired, and profitable. Genesis 28 is the Word of God and therefore to be regarded and respected. Until we build this important foundation as christians, we continue to risk treating the Word of God with contempt, disapproval and levity.
In Genesis 28, God made the same covenant that He made with Abraham(Genesis 15) and Isaac(Genesis 26), establishing it with Jacob. We should not decide to trifle with this account or disregard it on whatever grounds. God regarded it. This is the famous Bethel experience and covenant, where angels were ascending and descending. God told Jacob to go back there.
Gen 35:1 And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother.

Jacob also regarded it. He knew Jehovah God and referred to this event later, showing also that God was faithful to him.
Gen 28:16 And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.
Gen 28:17 And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.
Gen 28:18 And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it.
Gen 28:19 And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first.
Bethel means the house of God. Jacob regarded and feared God. how would anyone say that didn’t even want to know God. Why on earth was he looking for the blessing all his life? Why did he have respect unto the birthright and its importance?

Gen 31:42 Except the God of my father, the God of Abraham, and the fear of Isaac, had been with me, surely thou hadst sent me away now empty. God hath seen mine affliction and the labor of my hands, and rebuked thee last night.
Gen 35:3 And let us arise, and go up to Bethel; and I will make there an altar unto God, who answered me in the day of my distress, and was with me in the way which I went.

Here was a man who lived with the consciousness of God, how can we attempt to take away anything from this great hero of faith. Who does not have his failings in the Old testament Bible?
Then we are told that Jacob's vow was conditional. Like whose vow is not? Vows have conditions. Hannah's vow was conditional, Jephthah's vow was conditional. There is nothing wrong with a vow being conditional. It is biblical for vows to be conditional. And we strongly believe that tithing should be conditional. i mean, why should i tithe IF there is no income or increase? Are antitithers advocating that tithes should be given unconditionally? Tithing is conditional on the harvest. IF no salary comes in, i do not tithe. i guess that should be the sane thing to do, i sincerely hope our fellow discussants do not have a problem with this? Why should one be tithing and there is no income or salary or harvest? It's not the NEPA bill for crying out loud. Whether you have a job or you lose your job, the bill comes. Whether there is service rendered or not, the bill comes. This is not the tithe. The tithing is conditional on the blessing. Tithers take what they receive as a blessing. Tithers believe that a man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. We believe it is God that provides our salaries and incomes and harvest, that is why we tithe of them. If He does not provide them, we do not tithe, neither do we force anyone to. If anyone wants to tithe unconditionally, i believe that is your personal decision. God understands.
We should not base teachings on ASSUMPTIONS, saying tithing could not have been a regular practice of Jacob. You'd have to be omniscient to say that. That it is not written does not mean it did not happen. We're not told that Jacob was circumcised. Do we also assume that he was not circumcised?
Again, nobody said that tithes was commanded before the law of Moses. What is being plainly stated is that there are records showing that people gave tithes and knew about tithes before the law of Moses. What Abraham gave, and the tithe OF ALL that God gave to Jacob was referred to as tithe both by Moses(the writer of Genesis) and God(the Author of Genesis). God did not say "stop there Jacob, My tithe MUST be agricultural produce, or must be holy land product". Tithing is not restricted to Moses, neither is it Moses' discovery or patent.


END

Candour: I tender my apologies if i made our fellow discussants look bad. It sure wasn't intentional. I won't start making excuses but would want to affirm that i'm as interested in making this discussion as clean and rancour free as possible and so would not want to deliberately derail the flow, mutual respect and maturity we've all displayed so far.

Once again, i apologise

Image123: To the moderators

It seems it is our turn to be 'amazed', this time at the silence of the moderators as our fellow discussants are bravenly flouting the thread rules. Of concern is this for instance;
1. During the discussion there shall be no insults, name calling, maligning, critic of churches or ministers, or any intentional bid to make an opponent look bad. The discuss shall be done with the utmost respect of each person involved - conveying the Christian spirit of love. If anyone feels insulted, he shall be reporting the matter to the moderator; who holds the right to call the other person to order. If this is repeated by the same individual who does not take to correction, the discuss shall be suspended to allow for a replacement of that person.

Candour in RESPONSE TO RESPONSE OF REBUTTAL R2 severally disregarded and disrespected this. i'm not deceiving myself into thinking that these my brothers would obey rules, but at least we expect some measure of restraint or caution from the moderators so that the thread retains some semblance of purpose. This is not JSS 2A versus JSS 3B. That response is not a response at all, at least not to response of rebuttal R2. A response is an answer to something. When someone gives as a response, all he knows about number 1, number 2, number 3 and even outside the syllabus, and he gives it as answer to number 1. i do not think that is a response. i do not know the teacher that takes or marks that as a correct response/answer.
Candour's response contains so much insinuations, maligning, and intentional attempts to make opponents look bad. there was no respect or christianity in it. It was just all the allegations against the tithe, jumbled and bundled up. Many of the things we have not even said, but hetried to make it look like we've said them.
None of us(Image123 or Rhymejohn) have INSISTED on tithing in this thread or affirmed that Jesus endorsed tithing for the Christian thereby condemning those who don’t. On the contrary, Candour is well aware that i do not condemn anyone for not tithing. Why then is he nailing this allegations to "our brothers"?
He says we seem not to be sure who to tithe to and he is ready to reproduce them here for all to see. Where did he get this seemings? What sort of disrespect is that? i do not think the discussion should be a deliberate attempt to misconstrue other's words, or put them out of context in an attempt to score points. Those are just my thoughts anyway, i hope for something deeply christian not just superficial.
Statements like our brethren insist on going back to the bondage or Our brethren who preach the tithe statute as necessary/compulsory part of Christian worship dont regard the law of God at all. All they do is disregard it, belittle it and mock it.
i do hope the moderators do not just gloss over them or thank them for it, if indeed there are rules agreed to in the first page.

Rhymejohn should be sending in our Rebutting M2 soon. Thanks.

Thank you Image for that observation. The rule actually stated that if the rule is infringed on or is seen to be, the other party should apologize; and without waiting for the moderator Candour has apologized. I think it the matter is settled that way.

Thank you Gentlemen.

Considering the time Image123 posted the Rebuttal to M2, Miwerds and Candour are to |Respond to this by 12 noon today; except they request for more time.

Thanks.

DrummaBoy: Considering the time Image123 posted the Rebuttal to M2, Miwerds and Candour are to |Respond to this by 12 noon today; except they request for more time.

Thanks.

Haba!! Moderator, Image only posted @ 5.30am and 12 hours after will be 5.30pm. Abi is the rule no longer 12 hours in between posts?

Anyway, we will get in our response before 7pm today.

Thanks a lot

DrummaBoy:

Thank you Image for that observation. The rule actually stated that if the rule is infringed on or is seen to be, the other party should apologize; and without waiting for the moderator Candour has apologized. I think it the matter is settled that way.

Thank you Gentlemen.

settled.

Candour:

Haba!! Moderator, Image only posted @ 5.30am and 12 hours after will be 5.30pm. Abi is the rule no longer 12 hours in between posts?

Anyway, we will get in our response before 7pm today.

Thanks a lot

Sorry, I think I mixed up the time.

Our Response to the Rebuttal of M2 is soon to be posted. Please be patient as we converse this one lat time in email to make sure we have said what needs to be said.

RESPONSE TO REBUTTAL OF M2

It will be very incorrect to say we have remotely insinuated that any part of scripture should not be regarded. We have consistently affirmed that all scripture is profitable. What we say is that not all scripture can be used as a basis for Christian doctrine or as applicable to Christians. I’m sure our fellow discussants will agree with this otherwise we would want to know how many practices contained in the five books of the Pentateuch can be used for Christian doctrinal teachings? There are lessons to be learnt from them no doubt but we should be careful lest we be found to be putting new wine into an old wine skin and end up losing both. Rightly dividing the word of truth is very important indeed.

Also, it is imperative we know Abraham started out as a pagan before God called him. The verse below tells us that exactly
Joshua 24:2 KJV
And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.

And even though he obeyed God by moving out (Gen 12:4), even though he built an altar to God (Gen 12:8 ) and even gave tithes to Melchizedek (Gen 14:20), the first time God confirmed Abraham a believer hence righteous by faith is below
Genesis 15:6 KJV
And he believed in the Lord ; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

And only then, infact that very day could God make his glorious covenant with Abraham
Genesis 15:18 KJV
In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Just like God adopts and places us in the body of Christ today only when we believe no matter how many works we do in his name or how many church services we attend prior. Jacob also was not a believer when God met him and promised to do all he had promised his fathers in earlier years. God introduced himself as the God of his fathers (Gen 28:12) but see Jacob’s response
Genesis 28:20-21 KJV
And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, [21] So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Lord be my God:

God would only become God in his life if God fulfills all the conditions he gave God. This makes it very obvious that young Jacob had no time for God before now even though he had fathers who knew God personally and must have introduced God to him just as it is with some Christians today and their children that do not have time for God despite their parents fervency.

Abraham gave tithes of spoils of war to a High Priest but by the time Moses gave the law, it had been modified in every way. Israel didn’t give to the high priest, they gave to the Levites, then widows, fatherless and strangers. Spoils of war were not acceptable as tithe because God gave a different law concerning war and sharing of spoils accruing from it
Numbers 31:21 KJV
And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord commanded Moses;

Read Num 31:21-54 to get the full story. If the men of war had brought a tithe of war spoils to the Lord, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN REJECTED because God had a different plan for spoils of war under Mosaic law. Abraham’s type of tithe to Melchizedek was NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE TO GOD. The same way Animal sacrifices ceased to count with God when Christ died. Same God but different method of operation and that is why we need to know what God’s plan is for us and not go adopting practices that applied in other dispensations but not in this time of Grace.

Genesis 17:9-10 KJV
And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. [10] This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

In the above verse, we see God give a command on circumcision to Abraham with a clear directive that all male children in his generations to come MUST adhere to this instruction and COMMAND. It was the cornerstone of the covenant God signed with Abraham and became the cardinal law and distinguishing factor for every male Jew or Israelite. We find no such command for Tithes to Abraham (Abram did a one-off with Melchizedek) and it will be adding to scripture to say with confidence that Abraham instructed his children to tithe. There is no record of Isaac tithing but there is a record of him being circumcised (Gen 21:4) and of his offspring continuing the practice even with venom and aggression (Gen 34:13-15).

Jacob’s vow to tithe is clearly an attempt to curry favour from God and we wouldn’t be arguing about tithing today if preachers tell their flock this truth. Hannah vowed to give her child to God’s service if he blesses her with one. After she fulfilled her vow, God opened her womb and she had five more children after Samuel but we would be lying if we said she took all five to give to God again as she did with Samuel because a vow is a one off transaction and she had fulfilled it. Jacob’s vow was too.

See his complete statement and vow

Genesis 28:20-22 KJV
And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, [21] So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Lord be my God:[22]And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

He will ONLY give the tithe if God fulfilled those conditions. It is not an assumption to say tithing was not a regular practice of Jacob; It is the plain truth. He spent 20 years in Syria with Laban but he said he’ll give the tithe WHEN God brings him back to his father’s house. Are we allowed to treat tithes like that today? Will whoever decides to treat tithe the same way Jacob did his not be branded lawless, unrighteous and unjust? Do we think God saw Jacob as lawless for not paying tithes for 20 years? For our fellow discussants to say that Jacob practiced tithing as a lifestyle, they have to do the very thing that they accuse us of…basing doctrine on assumptions and not written facts.

Tithing may not be Moses’ patent, but as pointed out, When God gave Moses the tithe laws, all other forms of tithes by people of God ceased and specific beneficiaries of the tithes were named. Tithes had become exclusively of the law. What type is applicable to Christians today? Abraham’s? Jacob’s? Mosaic? If it’s none of these, when did God change it and what is the new system? We need to be sure to avoid adding to God’s word.

NOT ALL PRACTICES IN THE BIBLE AUTOMATICALLY APPLY TO CHRISTIANS

END

Double post

Thank you Miwerds and Candour for the Response to Rebuttal M2. We await Image and Rhymey's response to response which should be in by 7am tomorrow.

Thank you guys.

Good job Candour. i'm to keep a vigil tonight and would not be chanced. i've being in touch with Rhymej through mail and he's likely to send our response soon. If however that does not happen, please we will be sending both the response and our presentation of R3 within the 12 hours given to R3 i.e if we do not send the response before 7am, we will send both the response and R3 presentation before 7pm saturday. Thanks for your patience and understanding.

Image123: Good job Candour. i'm to keep a vigil tonight and would not be chanced. i've being in touch with Rhymej through mail and he's likely to send our response soon. If however that does not happen, please we will be sending both the response and our presentation of R3 within the 12 hours given to R3 i.e if we do not send the response before 7am, we will send both the response and R3 presentation before 7pm saturday. Thanks for your patience and understanding.

No problems at all. wish you all the best

cheers

Response to Response M2


Not all scripture can be used as a basis for Christian doctrine or as applicable to Christians. Nevertheless, all Scripture remain divinely inspired, profitable, and to be treated with regard.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

We have plainly stated and will re-state what we refer to as scriptures or God's law. God's law is not just some verses or books in the Bible. Scriptures are not just the first five books of the Bible. God's law includes Matthew, Zechariah, Psalms, Kings, Genesis etc. Again, not all scripture can be used as christian doctrine. This is however with clear and written knowledge of WHY it is not to be used. No scripture is of private interpretation. We do not pick the ones not for practice privately. God has clearly written them for us.
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.
Take for instance the scripture below. It is spoken to disciples directly but yet not for our practice. The reasons are very obvious to the average christian without any need for private intrpretations and logical reasonings.
Mat 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

The same cannot be said for passages like the below.
Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Psa 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

These remain relevant to everybody till tomorrow. So, it is not really about when it was written or who wrote it. It is more about a clear understanding of God's Word and will which He has revealed and written for all to see, not infer. Inferences are private.
Certainly Abraham started out as a pagan. Actually, who did not? Nobody came as a born again christian from his/her mother's womb. We all had the sin nature in us. But thank God we came into covenant with Him. Abraham and Jacob also encountered God and started walking with Him. EVEN IF they did not, nothing is wrong with us learning great lessons from ants, birds and uncircumcised gentiles. Most of our education and learning is from them BTW. Jesus pointed out great things in the Roman centurion, and in publicans and harlots. There are wonderful things we learn even from when Jacob and Esau were in their mother's womb. Hebrews shows us things to learn from Esau during the birthright episode.
Genesis 15v18 was not a new glorious covenant to Abraham. It was something God had already told him at least twice before this time. God restated it when Abraham was talking about going childless.
Gen 15:2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
Gen 15:3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Below is the same thing/glorious covenant already made before.
Gen 12:7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there built he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.
Gen 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed forever.

God told Abraham the same thing again in Genesis 17 to reassure him. He mentioned it again in chapter 19. God was certain that Abraham would train up his children after him in a godly way.
Gen 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
We can safely say that Abraham's descendants knew the Lord. Meanwhile, let us take a look at Jacob's vow again.
Gen 28:20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,
Gen 28:21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:
Gen 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.
There is no scriptural reason to affirm that Jacob did not make the Lord his God until he came again to his father's house in peace. That event occured somewhere in Genesis 35.
Gen 35:27 And Jacob came unto Isaac his father unto Mamre, unto the city of Arbah, which is Hebron, where Abraham and Isaac sojourned.
There are three things stated in that vow.
1. then shall the LORD be my God:
2. And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house
3. and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

It is common knowlegde that Jacob named that place the house of God that same day. He did not wait until he came again to his father's house in peace. So why should we assume that he waited till Genesis 35v27 before he gave the tithe? Here are scriptures that show that he named that place the house of God(bethel) before 35v27
Gen 28:19 And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first.
Gen 31:13 I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.
Gen 35:1 And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother.
Gen 35:3 And let us arise, and go up to Bethel; and I will make there an altar unto God, who answered me in the day of my distress, and was with me in the way which I went.
Gen 35:15 And Jacob called the name of the place where God spoke with him, Bethel.
This is all before 35v27, not after. Note the re-echo below as regards name changes. There were such re-echos as we have seen in the covenant God made with Abraham, and with Jacob naming Bethel. BTW, Bethel means the house of God.
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Gen 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.

Also, we note from Bible accounts that Jacob regarded God as his God before condition 'come again to my father's house in peace' was fulfilled. Read this.
Gen 33:20 And he erected there an altar, and called it El-elohe-Israel.
El-elohe-Israel, yes, do no damage to your tongue trying to pronounce, i almost did to mine , that simply means "God, the God of Israel".
All of Jacob's children were born before he came home to his father's house. Most of them's names had something to do with God. God Himself declared that jacob had power with God. Jacob himself recognised God in his life all through, and so did those around him.
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Now, concerning spoils of war, there is no command from God that people should not tithe spoils of war. There is however a passage that talked about cleansing or purifying spoils of war.
Num 31:21 And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses;
Num 31:22 Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead,
Num 31:23 Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water
Num 31:24 And ye shall wash your clothes on the seventh day, and ye shall be clean, and afterward ye shall come into the camp.

They had to purify the spoils of war, by passing the precious metals through fire and then everything being washed by water. This is a chip in by Eleazar, this is where it starts and stops when we rightly divide. We'll still be talking more on this passage in M3 so we'll save elaborate discussions till then. It however does not say that tithes of spoils were no longer acceptable to God.
We need to note that the Bible is not exactly about statistics. If something is mentioned once, it does not mean that it is not as true, or not as relevant as something else mentioned many times. They are both truths. The word of God is Truth and is Jesus. We should not be assuming that because something is not mentioned does not mean that it did not happen. i gave the example of Jacob. We know that he would have being circumcised, but it was not mentioned. That does not mean that he was not circumcised. If we both agree that Melchisedek was a highly respected priest around, and greater than Abraham, and we even hear that tithing was not uncommon in those days. Why do we insist that Abraham MUST have given tithes once? We have no records of any known INDIVIDUAL that tithed under the law i.e from Moses to malachi. Does that mean that since it was not recorded personally of them, it never happened? Or if it was recorded once, it MUST have happened just once? Did David tithe, at least he was a shepherd? Did Amos tithe, at least he was an herdsman under the law? We do not have their records, but it will be unfair to conclude that they did not tithe. Some of these great people, we do not even have record of them praying, or their circumcision, or their going to Jerusalem to appear three times a year, or giving any sacrifice, or even dying. Does it mean that we assume that they did not do this things too? What we however know is that God had this testimony of Abraham.
Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
Abraham and Jacob knew of and gave tithes BEFORE Moses and there is NOTHING wrong with tithe being conditional. Those should be noted. We are not under the law of Moses and should not be made SUBJECT to whatever demands Moses may have. We have a greater than Moses, and the whole of God's law written in us.

END

Thank you Image123 for your submission.

We expect your submission on R3 later today as you had stated earlier.

Presenting R3: Our tithing continues because Jesus and all the apostles had great respect for the Bible (John 17:17)

The Bible is another name for Scriptures or for God's law. It is holy, sacred and should be so treated. No part of the Bible should be treated with contempt or seen as unprofitable. All scripture is profitable and divinely inspired. When we say scripture or God's law, we do not refer ONLY to Exodus to Deuteronomy. In fact, it goes beyond Genesis to Malachi. The whole Bible, Genesis to Revelation is God's law. It's all scripture, and should be remembered, regarded and meditated on.
Jos 1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.
Psa 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

To us as believers, the law of God that we meditate on day and night, and in which is our delight is not just Exodus to Deuteronomy. Also, it is not just Matthew to Revelation. It is Genesis to Revelation. This is the Word that we hide inside us, that we may not sin. We tithe because of the respect that Jesus Christ had for the Word of God. He said,
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Joh 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.


Thy word is truth. That was what Jesus thought about the Bible. The portion He was actually referring to as LAW is in the Psalms BTW. In other places, He plainly stated.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

A tittle is a point like a dot or jot, a very small part. those words are self explanatory, and do not require private intrepretation for us to understand it.
What did John the beloved apostle have to say about the Bible?
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
We have many definitions for sin, this passage shows us what John taught to be sin. Sin is going against God's law. Jesus warned against breaking even the LEAST commandments or teaching men to do so. The apostles did not have this demarcation of Old Testament Bible and new testament Bible. To them, scripture was scriptures, whether written by Paul or Isaiah. They however had good understanding of the covenants, old and new, and of the dispensations. But for them Scripture was Scriptures and divinely inspired and profitable. John said there was no new commandment.
1Jo 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
1Jo 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
Of course, we know what the new commandment is, that we believe in Jesus and love one another as Christ did. That is new in a sense, but every other thing is what was from the beginning, according to John. When is the beginning? Jesus is from the beginning, and the devil sinned from the beginning. i guess that beginning is familiar? Genesis 1v1.
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Jesus and the apostles explained to us in scriptures that ALL the Scriptures is all summarised under love. Genesis to malachi, sorry, Genesis to Revelation is all summarised under love. Love for God, and for your neighbour. The New commandment is that we love as Christ.

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
This is the regard in which John held the Bible, from Genesis to revelations. What about James the apostle. He says.
Jam 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Jam 2:8 If ye fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:
Jam 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
James calls it the PERFECT law, he calls it the ROYAL law. he never thought it useless, neither did he have or develop a ministry to deliver christians from the Bible. Let us get our priorities and goals right. We are not obeying God's law to be saved or justified. We have to obey it all to IF we want to take that route to salvation or justification or righteousness. i believe that it is common knowledge that that route is humanly impossible. Our obedience does not make us innocent or holy, it is Jesus and faith in Him that achieves that. We are not expected by James to speak evil of the law.
What of Saint Peter? What did he think about God's Word? He had great regard and respect for it.
2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Savior:
He said be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets. He wants us to remember them, to take heed to it. He calls it a MORE SURE WORD.

2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Take heed unto it, UNTIL the day dawns, and the Day star arises.
What of Paul, He quoted Bible as if that was his oxygen. He used it to establish whatever he was saying. It was his authority. Hear what he has to say about the law.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Paul said we ESTABLISH the law. He had a lot to say, but i want to point us to that 7v14 where he says the law is spiritual. We should never mix God's law as a carnal commandment, the law is spiritual.

What about the early christians? Were they averse to the law, not at all. They considered studying the Word as a more honourable thing to do. They did not discard it, or treat the words of the apostles as more important. They knew that they apostles themselves regarded the Bible. and so also should we regard the Bible and all that it says. They had a clear understanding of where their salvation came from. Those who tried to base their SALVATION or justification on the law were warned and corrected. The law of God is not just sin offering and burnt offering. If you base your salvation on obeying the commands of Jesus or the apostles, like "Men ought always to pray" or " Rejoice in the Lord always", that will not save you or justify anyone. That's if anyone can even keep those commands on their own. If anyone is giving tithes to be acceptable to God or saved, it would not work. The route to salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus. But as for knowing God and obeying Him, and being changed into His likeness/image, we look at God's Word with the help of God's Spirit.
So, some of the early christians were actually devout law keepers. that did not take away their salvation. They were as saved as anyone, and they all had great regard and agreement with the whole Bible. Hear paul again.
Act 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come
Quite similar to what John said about no new commandment.
Ananias was a disciple of Christ, an early christian. He is the believer that Jesus sent to go and meet Paul when he got saved. He was devout to the law.
Act 22:12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
Also, in Jerusalem were thousands of first century christians who regarded and obeyed the law.
Act 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

This is the true picture. It is those that want to use the law unlawfully that we should jointly endeavour to correct and expound to them the way of God more perfectly. We should not be busy as believers argue about little words like pay or give, Abram or Abraham etc. BTW, to pay is to give. i do not exactly understand the much ado about it, neither does the Bible.
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings.
Its like asking if tribute should be paid or given, or if tax should be paid or given. Jesus said Give to Caesar. Whether you call it pay or give, the important thing is that you were taxed.
Mat 17:24 And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?
Mat 17:27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast a hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.
Some people asked Peter to pay tribute, Jesus gave it. It's basically the same thing.
The Bible records Abraham's tithe both as being given and paid. Its the same thing.
Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, paid tithes in Abraham.

Same action rendered as 'give' and 'paid'. We've considered Jacob and we clearly saw him talk about giving the tithe.
Gen 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

When you come under the law, we see instances where people were said to have given the tithe. Let me quickly point out two.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

Num 18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up a heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.
Num 18:28 Thus ye also shall offer a heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD's heave offering to Aaron the priest.
The above passages show the pharisee giving the tithe, and the levites giving the tithe. Whether you choose to say you give tithe, pay tithe, offer tithe, render tithe, sow tithe, donate tithe, contribute tithe. The grammar is not tje relevant thing, what mattered is that you tithed. God is not seeking for literary icons or lexical geniuses, but for those who have faith, with simple obedience, worshipping in spirit and in truth.

END

Thank you Image123 for the Presentation R3.

I expect the Rebuttal R3 to come in by 7am tomorrow; except Miwerds/Candour ask for more time.

Thanks Image123 for your post.

@moderators, we'll get in our response 7pm tommorow by God's grace. We crave your indulgence.

Thank you

Candour: Thanks Image123 for your post.

@moderators, we'll get in our response 7pm tommorow by God's grace. We crave your indulgence.

Thank you

Wow! A whole 24 hours. Well, no problem, as long as Image and Rhymeyjohn do not protest it.

Sabbath things. no wahala at all.

Rebuttal to R3:

We should all have utmost respect for the Word of God. Who are we to question how God does things?

Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

The Word of God is pure. It needs no proofing by man to make it more palatable. It needs no editing by man to stir up the emotional senses. God’s Word is forever settled in Heaven. There is no amount of adjusting that one can do to God’s Holy Word that can make it one iota better than He has made it. Any attempt to do such puts us in the place of Lucifer, who thought his way was better than God’s way. It’s best to leave God’s Word alone and let it speak for itself.

To base tithing on the fact that Jesus and His Apostles had a great respect for the Bible is really no valid reason to tithe; given the instructions that God has given concerning tithes. God gave the tithes to the Levites (Nmubers 18:24)

Numbers 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.

To say we can tithe to anyone who is not a Levite is not an accurate statement. There is no command in the Word of God for the faithful Brethren of the New Testament Church to tithe to a person who is not a Levite. Likewise, there is no command in the Word of God for a person who is not a Levite to take tithes of the faithful Brethren of the New Testament Church.

We agree that the Bible is holy, sacred and should be treated as such as it is. So the question arises, are we treating the Bible as holy and sacred?

Our opponents have inferred that we treat the Bible with contempt. We do not. We teach and preach the Word of God as it is written. We do not handle deceitfully the Word of God, as one who wrests it to his own destruction would.

While we agree that the Word of God is to be remembered, regarded, and meditated on, we would have to disagree with where the line of thought in the Presentation is going. It can be proved that some Scripture, while relevant and applicable to the ancient Jews, is not applicable and relevant to the New Testament saints; animal sacrifices being one of those practices and statutes that can in no way, shape or form be applicable to the New Testament Church. Christ became the sacrifice that was needed from mankind. His blood spoke of better things than that of Abel (Heb. 12:24)

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

His blood accomplished what the blood of bulls and goats could not do… His blood cleansed us from our sins. Just as Abel’s blood cried from the ground, Christ’s blood cried from the Mercy Seat. And I am so thankful that because I trusted in Christ as Lord and Saviour, I can truly say that His blood spoke my name!

In the first chapter of Joshua, God was telling Joshua to keep the book of the Law. He was speaking of course of the Mosaic/Levitic Law that consisted of five books written by Moses and known properly as the Pentateuch, or TORAH… the Book of the Law. This command to keep the Mosaic/Levitic Law was not given to the New Testament, post-crucifixion saints. It was given to a people who were entering into the Promised Land in the year 1410 B.C.. They were to observe and keep the TORAH as God had written for the children of Israel. Again, this was for ancient Israel. Concerning the New Testament post-crucifixion saints, the Law did not apply. The commandments contained in ordinances had been done away with… cancelled (see Ephesians 2:14-15)

Ephesians 2:14-15 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Numbers 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
Hebrews 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

Do we truly have respect for the Word of God if we continue to practice Old Testament practices that the New Testament says have been taken out of the way and nailed to the cross? (Col. 2:14) Do we truly have respect for the Law, which took the tithe out of the hands of Melchizedek and put it into the hands of the Levites, (Num. 18:24) took it out of the hands of the Levites (Heb. 7:18 ) and says nothing whatsoever about putting it in the hands of anyone else? Do we really respect the Law, when we place ourselves under the Law and then twist the wording of the Law to our own liking?

And when we “respect the Law,” are we truly respecting God, who is tempted when we place ourselves under the Law? (Acts 15:10)

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

I submit to the readers that if we adapt the Laws of the Old Testament, but twist them so that the Laws no longer resemble those Laws handed down to Moses on Mount Sinai, we are truly not “respecting the Law.” Nor are we showing any respect to God, the giver of that Law.

Now, the commandments Jesus was speaking of in Matthew 5 were, of course, the commandments contained in the ordinances of the Mosaic/Levitic Law. At the time Jesus spoke those words, He was speaking to a Jewish audience… Jews that were obligated to keep those commandments by order from God the Father Himself. Jesus was not speaking to the New Testament Church, but rather to a people under the Law.

Now, our opponents are defending the doctrine of the monetary tithe. Of course, they say that it is not the Mosaic Law they are placing the monetary tithe under because Abram tithed prior to Moses, they defend it. What tithe are they defending then? The Abrahamic tithe? Before I answer that question, I would like to point out that fact that our opponent says we are to “regard, remember and meditate on the Law of God”, of which they include Genesis as being God’s Law as well as the rest of the Bible.

What did Abram’s tithe consist of? Did it include money? Possibly. Did it include anything other than money? Well, according to the account in Genesis 14, it also included clothing. Abram gave tithes of all the spoils that he had recovered. Articles of clothing were amongst the spoils., as more than likely were carts and wagons to carry all the spoils that the kings had stolen.

Genesis 14:22-24 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth, That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich: Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.

I ask again, is it the Abrahamic tithe that that our opponents are defending? Well, I have yet to see any of them stating that they tithe their clothes, their vehicles, their food, etc. Yet, logic would tell you that the Abrahamic tithe had to have consisted of all these things. If all these things are not being tithed, is the Law truly being “regarded, remembered and meditated on” as we are told?

Jesus had a great respect for the Law, yet I find no instance in God’s Word of Him telling people to tithe according to an Abrahamic tithe. But He does tell the scribes and Pharisees that they are to tithe according to the Mosaic/Levitic tithe. (Matthew 23:23)

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.


Ephesians 2:14-15 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Hebrews 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
Hebrews 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.


Scripture clearly staes that the commandments contained in ordinances were abolished. ((Eph. 2:14-15) Scripture also reveals that the command that the Levites had to take tithes of their Brethren (the children of Israel) were disannulled. (Hebrews 7:5;18)

John did in fact say that “Sin is the transgression of the Law.” But what Law was John speaking of? Was John putting his audience under the Mosaic/Levitic Law? Was he truly telling the Church to place themselves under the Mosaic Law after it was decided at the Jerusalem Council that the Gentile Churches were not to be placed under the Law? Was John really advocating bewitching God’s people as the Galatians had been bewitched by the Judaizers in 58 A.D.? I highly doubt that that is possible. John would be tempting God (Acts 15:10 ) if he were telling those reading his epistle to keep the Mosaic/Levitic Law.


The transgression of the Law is sin. We will not argue that. But the Bible is clear, what was Law for the Israelites was not Law for the post-crucifixion Christians.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

That Romans 13:9 list laws that can also be found in the Mosaic/Levitic Law, it is easy to prove that these are New Laws given to the Romans and not the Mosaic/Levitic Laws. The Jerusalem Council was held in 51:A.D.. The epistle to the Romans was written just nine years later, in 60 A.D.. It is highly doubtful that Paul forgot the decision of the Apostles and the Holy Ghost that the Gentile Converts were not to be required to keep the Law.

This idea of Paul teaching the Romans to keep the Law, while telling the Galatians they were fools to allow themselves to be talked into placing themselves under the Law is painting Paul to be some kind of hypocrite, guilty of that which he withstood Peter to the face for his hypocrisy. (Gal. 2)

Galatians 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

A proper study of Romans will reveal that Paul could not have been telling the Romans to keep the Mosaic/Levitic Law. In the first four verses of chapter 7, Paul explained that those who were married to Christ had no business going to the house of the Law.

Romans 7:1-4 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

We, as Christians are supposed to be dead to the Law and the Law dead unto us. How is it possible to obey a Law that the Apostle said we are dead to?

Yes, some Laws were given in Chapter 13. But that doesn’t mean Paul was telling them to keep the Mosaic Law. Let’s look at in the natural for a moment. You live in Nigeria. You are driving your car and you are speeding. A police pulls you over for speeding. Does he give you a ticket for breaking the law in Mississippi? Of course not! Mississippi has Laws for speeding, as does Nigeria, as does Edinburgh, England. But though all have laws against speeding, all are not the same. It is the same with the law in Romans 7. Though it appears the same as that which is written in the Mosaic/Levitic Law, it is not. Different Laws carried different penalties for different people. We are not bound to the Mosaic/Levitic Law. God does not hold us accountable for breaking the Mosaic/Levitic Laws once we come to faith in Christ. He now holds us to a different Law. The Law of Love.

We are to Love Him with all our heart, mind, soul and strength. Nor are we bound to the Abrahamic Law. And we are to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. If we truly are in Christ, we are going to observe the Law of Love. We can do nothing else but follow this Law of Love. We love Him because He first loved us. We love our fellow man because we love Him. He love constraineth us. His Love holds us together. They that are His have crucified the flesh and the affections thereof.

2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

There is no need for the Law of sin and death (Mosaic/Levitic Law; 2 Cor. 3:7) when we walk in the perfect Law of Love. If one shows forth a vertical Love toward the Father in Heaven, that Love will spread out horizontally to man on Earth.

I have to ask, Do our opponents who "regard, remember and meditate on the Law" keep the following verse?...

Deuteronomy 22:11 Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.

END

Image123: Sabbath things. no wahala at all.

Sabbath ke?? Not at all bro.....Just fellowship things I tell you but Mark has even put my request to shame already by beating the original deadline.

Cheers

Thank you Miwerds for that rebuttal. We expect Image's response later this evening at about 7pm. Thank you gentlemen for the discuss so far. I commend the maturity and sound presentation of thoughts from both sides devoid of bile. Let us keep up the spirit.

Candour:

Sabbath ke?? Not at all bro.....Just fellowship things I tell you but Mark has even put my request to shame already by beating the original deadline.

Cheers

i meant rest na and whatever comes with Sunday. Seeing Mark's post though.