I want to ask both parties who have made changes to their original ten points listed to effect the changes on the list on page 0. Also when we make our presentations, let them bear the original title name and scriptural texts as we have them on page O. This is for the sake of our readers; so they will not be confused.

@Image123 and Rhymeyjohn

Mark Miwerds and Candour have gotten in touch with me privately about their delay in presenting their rebuttal. I believe ti has to do with some challenges Candour is having with internet connectivity, which he had spoken earlier about and which, hopefully, will be resolved very soon. I felt I should remind you and allay any worries you may have in that regards. I believe any moment from now they will be making their presentation.

Thank you for your understanding.

DrummaBoy: @Image123 and Rhymeyjohn

Mark Miwerds and Candour have gotten in touch with me privately about their delay in presenting their rebuttal. I believe ti has to do with some challenges Candour is having with internet connectivity, which he had spoken earlier about and which, hopefully, will be resolved very soon. I felt I should remind you and allay any worries you may have in that regards. I believe any moment from now they will be making their presentation.

Thank you for your understanding.

No worries.

REBUTTING R5



Image123 has stated, “we strongly believe that a righteous man should do good works.” To which, we wholeheartedly agree. He also said we ought to walk as Christ walked, to which we also agree. However from our bible studies and our understanding of the Jewish laws, ordinances etc that Christ did, can any Christian honestly say Christ paid tithes? Can any honest pastor say Christ collected Tithes? If not, then whose example are our tithe propagating brothers following? In whose steps are the tithe collecting pastors walking? Once again we need to remind our brothers that NOT ALL PRACTICES IN THE BIBLE AUTOMATICALLY APPLY TO CHRISTIANS otherwise we'll have to remind them of other good works which they DO NOT DO like feast of Pentecost, feast of tabernacles, Sabbath observance (which was the first 'good work' instituted by God at creation) etc. If they don't do all these, then their obedience is incomplete and their righteousness is unfulfilled. Jesus attended the feast of booths or tabernacles(John 7:2-10), do our tithing brethren fulfill this righteous and good work too? or do they simply pick and choose which 'good work' is beneficial, materially profitable, convenient and elevate it to a compulsory status for themselves and other believers?

Anybody can decide to practice tithing like our brothers here profess to do, anybody can observe sabbath like the SDA do, anybody can observe the feast of tabernacles like the GKS do, anybody can insist on wearing only white to fellowship like the CCC and C&S do, it's their prerogative but they shouldn't be smuggled into the status of a requirement or obligation for Christians under the guise and illusion of 'fulfilling all righteousness'. Once again, NOT ALL PRACTICES IN THE BIBLE AUTOMATICALLY APPLY TO CHRISTIANS.

See what apostle Paul said

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Christ has abolished the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES of which tithing is one, so why would any Christian want to rebel by cutting a part, modifying it to suit some pecuniary considerations and brandish it as obligatory and required of Christians? Is that not working AGAINST that which Christ has done? Is working against what Christ has done really to be called “good works”?

Concerning the “putting the cart before the horse” thought, I sincerely believe when one attempts to tithe, one is holding onto a past that
Christ does not want us to hold on to. The tithe is a thing of the past. It was not for the Gentile Converts. It was for the Jewish farmers and herders in Israel. And it was cancelled out, abolished when Christ became the atoning sacrifice for our sins on the cruel cross.

The following truths and facts are worthy of note

1. Jesus did not pay tithes and would NEVER have received tithes when he was on earth because he was not from the tribe of Levi.

2. The apostles would NEVER have received tithes because non was a Levite serving at the Temple. We at least know Paul was a Benjaminite.

They all knew what the law says. Remember the law and temple were in full operation then and the Levitical priesthood was still in charge. We can confidently say here that if they had tried collecting tithes from any body, the Jews would have STONED THEM TO DEATH (sure we all know how fanatical the Jews were about the law) because it would have been Sacrilege and usurpation of the duties and rights of the Levites.

The question now comes, how could the early Christians have paid tithe? who would they have paid it to? Who were the churches founded by Paul paying tithes to? For anyone to say early Christians paid tithes to Paul or any of the apostles will be OUT-RIGHTLY LYING and DELIBERATING PEDDLING FALSEHOOD which i trust our fellow discussants here would not want to indulge in even remotely.


Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

The above scripture cannot be used to justify the act of tithing today without pulling it out of its Scriptural context and twisting its meaning. The verse is concerning water baptism. Jesus was not saying allow me to tithe, for thus it fulfilleth all righteousness. To apply Matthew 3:15 to reason one tithes is saying righteousness cannot be fulfilled unless one tithes and our tithing brethren have been vehement that they know and agree that Tithes DOESN'T JUSTIFY us before God. Of course, we agree that faith in Christ is the only thing that one needs to be made righteous. Tithing will not add to righteousness, feast of Pentecost will not, feast of tabernacles will not, sabbath observance will not neither will circumcision or any of the other 'good works' or practices, So why hold on to tithing as if it's important, necessary or relevant? The apostles did not, the early church did not. It wasn't until 585AD that the Roman Catholics mooted the idea and it wasn't until 787AD that they made it a part of their canon and even at that, it was strictly from agric produce and livestock. Not until 1873AD did American Christians start collecting monetary tithes (and it was even with some restrictions). Anyway, that is discussion for another day.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Abraham was not called righteous or the Friend of God because he tithed the spoils of war to Melchizedek. No, he was called righteous, the Friend of God because he believed God.

The Law is holy and good but it is also a ministration of death. Those who insist on living by the Law are setting themselves up to stand before the Father at the Great White Throne Judgment with no merit whatsoever. Scripture says those who choose to walk in the Law are cursed if they do not continue in all the Law.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all
things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

The tithers see tithing as a good thing to do and are careful to point out that “the Law is good and holy.” Yet this Law that they see as good and holy” teaches an entirely different tithe than the tithe they are clearly placing within the confines of the Law. They say they do not tithe because the tithe is part of the Law, but as clearly demonstrated by their present presentation, they constantly attempt to justify the tithe by using the Law. This is clearly double standards.

The Word of God demands that if they are going to rely on the Law, they must keep the entire Law … or be cursed. The tithe that Scripture consistently tells people to do is not this modern day monetary tithe which Image123/rhymeyjohn are teaching. See the high points of the tithe which the law teaches and commands and which Christ asked the Pharisees to do in Matt 23:23

1. The tenth of livestock and crops to be eaten by the tither, his family and others at the yearly feast in Jerusalem (Deut 14:22-26)

2. Another tenth of livestock and the tenth of crops paid to the Levites, not priests, prophets or pastors even though we had abundance of these class of people when isreal eventually settled in canaan.(Num 18:21,24)

3. Another tenth every three years to the Levites, widows, fatherless and strangers(Deut 14-28-29)

4. A tenth from the tenth the Levites receive from the isrealites to be given to the priests (Num 18:26-28, Neh 10:38)

Does what they do and preach today resemble any of the above? How then can they claim the law is good and holy yet teach an ordinance contrary to what the law says and then claim they're fulfilling all righteouness? What are the good works in using the Law to justify tithing and then practicing the tithing contrary to the Law?



1Ti 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

The three verses above were quoted by our brothers, but they have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with tithing as a good work. the lesson to be learnt from those scriptures is doing good to people around and being ready to be generous with our resources and that is exactly what every Christian should preach. That is what the early church lived by. they gave to meet the needs of the less priviledged in their midst. The ministry of every Christian is giving to meet needs not tithing to fulfill all righteousness.

Acts 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as everyman had need.

Matt 25:40 And the king shall answer and say unto them, Verily i say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Read Matt 25 from verse 31 to know the heart of Christ about meeting needs of destitute folks. God did not hide his mind about giving, Christ did not hide his mind about it and the apostles and early Christians showed how serious they were about it. The slogan is give as much as you're able and it was always about meeting needs, NOT TO FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS


Again, Image123/rhymeyjohn infer that tithing is in obedience to God’s Word when they equate it to good works and then say “good works is obedience to God.” And where can one find tithing as something that God want’s one to “obey”? That’s right… in the Law. While they say one doesn’t tithe because of the Law, they consistently run back to the Law to demonstrate that they tithe because they want to be obedient. In order to tithe because of obedience, one must find the command to tithe. That command is in the Law.

Throughout the Old Testament, people were instructed to do things, and they were expected to obey those instructions but today, we live in a new covenant. We are not told to obey the instructions given to the Jews living in Israel. God has written in His Word what He expects of His children today concerning giving and it's in our interest to search it out and learn so we can come to the knowledge of the truth.


Balanced diet is good…providing that which is in the diet is what is good for the person. Since the Word of God reveals that tithing was
abolished, nailed to the cross, how can one put it in his daily spiritual diet? What God shutteth, no man openeth. Tithing was abolished with ALL OTHER ORDINANCES. Therefore It is not obedience to tithe. Rather, it is rebellion and disobedience.




END

Finally!

Thank you Candour.

Awaiting Image123 and Rhymeyjohn's Response to Rebuttal R5

@Audience

First, I want to thank you guys for forbearing with us up until this time. We are about half way through with the discuss.

Remember that when the discussion is concluded, we will have both pro and anti tithe folks on this forum give their opinion on the subject. After that the thread will be open to all to comment; hopefully the thread would be on front page then.

I am trusting God that the vision that propelled this discuss will be realized and that is for people to understand the biblical tithe.

Thank you everyone.

RESPONSE TO REBUTTAL R5

We expect and do hope that our discussion would be progressive and that we are learning from one another in these discusses. i believe that the aim of the discussion is to clear the air and straighten views on why we all do what we do. When we keep going to the back, like we've not being clear or touched on certain things, it shows that we are either not paying attention, or we are not learning. Now to the response, we find it contradictory and incongruent with scriptures for our fellows to say that Christ did not tithe, and yet insist that tithe is of the law.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Scriptures clearly teach that Jesus Christ did not break any of God's commands but was sinless. If indeed sin is the transgression of the law(1John3v4), we make bold to say that Jesus NEVER transgressed the law.
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

You cannot say that tithe is of the law, and the same time truly insist or insinuate that Christ did not do it or encourage it. Do we really assume that this same Jesus, who told folks to go show themselves to the priests would in any way discourage anyone from tithing? Jesus is our example and He is who we follow. He NEVER discouraged anyone from giving the tithe.
Now, when you say NOT ALL PRACTICES IN THE BIBLE AUTOMATICALLY APPLY TO CHRISTIANS, that's a statement uncalled for. Nobody disputed this or was against this. Its like if i said and make bold that SATAN IS NOT THE FATHER OF JESUS CHRIST. You ought to be wondering why i would say that in this discussion. That would be an attempt to make/mislead the casual reader think that the other party was saying that satan is Jesus' father. What we have plainly stated and explained from our first point has been 2Timothy 3v16, that ALL Scripture is divinely inspired and profitable. that there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong in people following scriptural examples and learning godliness from the Bible characters and passages.
BTW, you've got to be omniscient to be telling us what we DO NOT DO. In this same thread, we have clearly stated that there is NOTHING wrong with observing feasts. In fact, i recall quoting a scripture where Paul was telling gentile believers about observing a feast.
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

There is nothing wrong with observing the sabbath, i do. And Jesus remains the lord of the Sabbath. When our friends say "If they don't do all these, then their obedience is incomplete and their righteousness is unfulfilled." its either you have not been listening or reading what we have being saying, or you have forgotten so soon, letting it slip. i would like to ask if your own obedience is complete? Candour and Mark, is your obedience complete?
i'm not sure, i've not seen anybody whose obedience is complete. Perhaps, we are about to see one in Candour and co though. We are made righteous, justified, saved in Christ, after which we are called to good works. It IS NOT our good works that make us righteous. This does not stop us or deter us from doing good works as much as God gives us the grace. We have said it, and we say it again. If God givs you the grace to do more, please do more. Give more, give all the types of tithe known to you, observe all the feasts you can and obey all the Word you can. No problem AT ALL. The ONLY thing is that you do not do it unlawfully, that is as a means to obtain forgiveness or justification or salvation. But to come and discourage folks from obeying any one of God's Words. Jesus said this is so wrong. If He is Lord, we ought to walk even as He walked.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

All the Word of God is right to us. We are in no way claiming to have attained, even apostle Paul did not. None theless, we are asking God for more grace, and we ask that you do not come in to dissuade us.
Psa 119:128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.

Talking about pick and choose, it ought to be evident to our brothers that they are the ones doing the cherrypicking in the law. It is either the law is abolished or it is not. IF you insist that the law is abolished, then you cannot pick on just tithes and some few that you do not like, then hold on to other parts of the law like love, mercy and faith for instance. Jesus Christ said that mercy, faith and justice are part of the law, weightier and important parts of the law for that matter. Jesus said the two greatest commands/ordinances in the law are loving God and loving neighbour.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Now, out of the whole law, these above take the greater percentage and sector in God's pie chart. Can we reasonably say that these are the enmity? Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances. Why do we refuse to rightly divide the Word of truth. Oh, i forgot, you don't think it is the Word of Truth, it is the enmity. No, it is not the enmity. The Word of God is not the enmity. Thou shall not kill, thou shall not be a witch, thou shall tithe, thou shall honour your parents, thou shall circumcise. These are not the enmity. The enmity is the covenant made, the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant/agreement did not pay or favour man. It condemned us, no man could keep it except Jesus. Are we saying all men had to kill, or had to steal when we say no man could keep it? No, those were not the covenant. Those are God's laws. The Covenant/Agreement was IF you obey ALL my Words/Laws, THEN you will be saved/justified/accepted. This was the agreement that men made with God on Sinai. This was the Law. This was what was and is against man, because man cannot meet God's standards till tomorrow. This is why Christ came. In the OT, there was faith but the covenant was not based on faith. We have many heroes of faith under the law, but their covenant was not faith based. The New Covenant is based on faith in Jesus, in His blood/cross, to be saved/justified/accepted.

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Christ Jesus did not come to close the door of tithes, whatever that means. He came to make us one, to break down the wall of partition. To remove the hindrance. The covenant was the hindrance. The new covenant is based on faith in the blood.
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Just as faith and God's law existed in the past, even before the Old Covenant, so also today, faith and God's law still exist. What the Bible says is new is grace, God helping man.
Again, the law of commandments contained in ordinances is not tithes. the law of commandments contained in ordinances is the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant was built on the Levitical priesthood and system, ratified by their sacrifices. The New Covenant is build on the Melchisedek priesthood of Christ, ratified by Christ's sacrifice. Christ came to abolish the old agreement, not to abolish the Word of God. As for the word of God, Christ said it will not pass away. The weightier matters of the law, mercy, faith and judgement are still here, and we will do well to obey them. The most important law of loving God is still here. And not one tittle or the least of God's Word is irrelevant or abolished.
Tithing REMAINS INCONTROVERTIBLY a practice before the Old Covenant. It is not subject to, neither is in a subset or offshoot of the Old covenant. People tithed centuries before the Old covenant. It is wrong to limit the practise to just the Old covenant. This has always being our view and stance. It becomes unfair when you continue to subtly infer that we are averse to the law. Our very first point state that we consider God's law as divine, as light as truth, and ALL PARTS worthy of emulation. We have not said that we should only emulate before the law. All Scripture remain, given by inspiration of God and PROFITABLE for instruction in righteousness.

When the question is asked how could the early Christians have paid tithe? Very simple. How could early christians have being zealous of the law?
Act 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

Any observant student of the Acts of the apostles would see that many of the early christians went to the temple, including Paul. They also met frequently at synagogues.
Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Act 3:1 Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour.
Act 5:20 Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life.
Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
Act 24:18 Whereupon certain Jews from Asia found me purified in the temple, neither with multitude, nor with tumult.

Early christians knew their way to the temple including Peter, Paul and John. And the temple remained till most of them had died. The writer of the hebrews acknowledges the fact that tithes were being given in the temple.
Heb 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

It appears to be a common practice and unrebuked practice in those days. The real question is, Is giving tithes a good thing? Is tithing a good work or a bad work?
It has been shown from the Bible that tithes was given of all things, and God did not reject it. ALL Scripture is profitable for us. we would do well not to be tied to some certain segments alone. Abraham and Jacob's examples show us clearly that one can give tithes of all God gives, not only on pawpaws and mangoes. We believe this discuss is focused on tithing, not on alms giving. Neither Rhymeyjohn nor Image123 is opposed to almsgiving or to any form of giving that s found in scriptures. What we are discussing is tithes and why we do it. We also give to every man as they have need and as God gives grace. i hope we stay on point. The Word of God NO WHERE reveals that tithing was abolished, nailed to the cross. We patiently await any real proof against this statement and not just inferences. Inferences are very subject to private interpretation. Let us know this first.
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.

Let us not infer that apostle Paul and co cherry picked the law, and told us that the law is abolished, only to tell us severally to obey the parts they like, including the weighty parts like faith, mercy, love and judgment. Jesus Christ is not just to be admired, He is to be followed. He said "IT BECOMETH US TO FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS". Let us walk by faith, and not by sight.


END

RESPONSE TO RESPONSE R5



Christ DID NOT pay tithes and he broke no law by this simply because the law of tithes DID NOT apply to him since he was a carpenter (Mark 6:3), NOT a farmer or a herder. The ordinance of tithing did not and could not apply to Him. The ordinance of tithing clearly revealed what it was that God required to be tithed under the Law.

Leviticus 27:30-34 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed. These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.

The apostles DID NOT collect tithes from anybody because they WERE NOT LEVITES and they knew from THE LAW that they were not qualified to collect it. Remember they were NOT GREEDY neither were they COVETOUS. See the inheritors of the tithe God commanded from scripture

Numbers 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
Numbers 18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.
Numbers 18:28 Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD'S heave offering to Aaron the priest

Pagans paid tithes to kings centuries before Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek (This is provable and has been proved from history) and they were still practicing it during Abraham’s time. However, by the time God gave the law to Moses for the children of Israel, tithes became strictly of Agric produce and Strictly for levites then widows, fatherless and strangers, NOT TO ANY KING or PRIEST (Priests received tithes from Levites, NOT from the general populace). Jesus and all Jews knew this so why do our brothers really think Jesus would tell someone to obey a Law that did not pertain to them? Or modify the law to suit their desires?

To use Matt 5:17 as proof that Jesus had to have tithed is proven to be fallacious. Jesus kept only the ordinances that pertained to Him. Some of the ordinances could not apply to Him. He was not a sinner, so He did not need to go to the Temple yearly with a sin offering. To take one to the Temple, He would be professing Himself a sinner and therefore unworthy to be the needed Sacrifice for the Redemption of mankind. A woman, after giving birth, was required to go to the Temple with sacrifices. Christ was not a woman, so that particular ordinance did not pertain to Him. Likewise, the tithe ordinance did not pertain to Him because he wasn’t a farmer nor a herder. We will remind our brothers again that NOT ALL PRACTICES IN THE BIBLE AUTOMATICALLY APPLY TO CHRISTIANS because the cross made and still makes a very big difference.

Jesus would surely have been a laughingstock had He told a carpenter, a fisherman, a brickmason, a tentmaker, etc., that they were to tithe. Also it’s important to note that The tithes were to be eaten by all beneficiaries, NOT SPENT on temple buildings, buying clothes or chariots for the temple operators as modern tithe collectors claim they use the tithes to run the gospel, build cathedrals or buy TV/Radio time

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

All Scripture is inspired. It is profitable but to apply it in a manner that it is not to be applied is to handle deceitfully the Word of God. The funny thing is, tithing advocates don’t focus on the entire truth concerning the tithe God commanded. They instead cherry-pick one particular truth; i.e., “The tithe is the Lord’s,” and then proceed to build a doctrine off of that without applying the rest of the details that God has given concerning tithes and they happily proclaim they’ve fulfilled all righteousness. If water had been sprinkled on Jesus like some do today in the name of baptism, would he have taken it as fulfilling all righteousness? The answer is NO. Baptism is immersion and he obeyed it fully. If you want to preach and practice tithe, please preach and practice the entire truth about the Tithe.

Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Sadly, some take those words and corrupt them with the doctrines and traditions of man and Christ was vehement in his condemnation of this practice

Matt 15:7-9 Ye Hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,[8]This people draweth nigh unto me with mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.[9]But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

The plain truth is that the tithe preached and practiced in most churches today has no single resemblance or similarity to the tithe God instituted when he gave Moses the law.

Our tithing brothers ask if our obedience is also complete and we say a big YES because our obedience is not based on the Mosaic law but on the law of Christ which is simply LOVE for one another (John 13:34-35). As Christians, we have been brought into a new dispensation. We are not required to keep the Sabbath. We are not required to keep the feasts. We are not required to keep any of the Old Testament Law. Our tithing brothers believe they NEED to fulfill all righteousness hence they tithe and MAYBE keep Sabbath( I honestly hope they know the ramifications of keeping the sabbath) but I still wonder what happens to feast of tabernacles and others. Our brother said ‘i'm not sure, i've not seen anybody whose obedience is complete’ and I say, YOU’LL NEVER FIND SOMEBODY WHOSE OBEDIENCE TO THE LAW IS COMPLETE because no one can. We’ve just proved to them that they even fail horribly in the tithe they claim to keep yet they tell us they are fulfilling all righteousness. See what some early Jewish Christians told gentile converts like you and i

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved

Then some ‘knowledgeable’ Christian Pharisees came with their own

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses

But hear what apostle Peter (himself an ardent believer in the law,Acts 10:14,28) said

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Now hear the conclusion from James, the leader of the Jerusalem council with the approval of the Holy Ghost

Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Acts 15:28-29 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;[29]That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well

Is tithing a component of the laws of Moses? YES. Then Gentile Christians had and still have no business with it. If I give today, it’s not because it’s in the law; its because its my new nature to give. If I don’t steal, fornicate, Kill, bear false witness, exhibit covetousness, its not because it’s in the law. IT’S BECAUSE MY NEW NATURE AS A CHRISTIAN ABHORS THESE PRACTICES.

If it seemed good to the holy Ghost not to lay the burden of the law on Christians, who has the right and permission to?

The Word of God says those who have begun in the Spirit are foolish to submit to the law to be perfected

Galatians 3:1-3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Image123 wrote: “ Give more, give all the types of tithe known to you, observe all the feasts you can and obey all the Word you can.” This is the perfect example of cherry picking scripture. Is my brother asking us to obey the laws we can and dump the rest? Did Jesus ask the Pharisees to practice one tithe and neglect the others if they can’t? Did God give this option or are our fellow discussants arrogating powers they do not possess to themselves?

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Who is teaching men to break one of these commandments? Those who teach rightly that the tithes were crops, livestock and meant to be given to the Levites, then widows, fatherless and strangers or those who teach monetary tithes and say it should be given to pastors to administer on God’s behalf?
In one instance, our brother said Christ fulfilled all the law and we ought to walk as he walked but now he’s saying we should observe the practices ‘we can’, what happened to 'fulfilling ALL righteousness' like they tried proving to us with this presentation?

If Christ did not come to close the door on tithes as our brothers claim, then why are they not walking in obedience to the commands that God gave concerning tithes? i.e., taking their tithes to the Levites (Pastors CAN NEVER be levites however the scripture is bent out of shape), eating their tithes at a feast at the temple city (note: hearing a sermon in church does not equate to eating the tithes like how some explain Mal 3:8-11), Giving tithes to the destitute (giving tithes to a Church does not equate to giving it to the less fortunate)

The true picture is that we don’t have to do any of those things. WE ARE NOT REQUIRED OR REMOTELY EXPECTED TO. We are Gentile Christians saved by grace NOT Jews practicing Judaism. To place ourselves in subjection to any part of the Mosaic/Levitical Law is to tempt God. To tell others to do the same is to tempt God. See Peter asking the Christian Pharisees and we ask our brethren today too

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Image123 asked: “When the question is asked how could the early Christians have paid tithe? Very simple. How could early christians have being zealous of the law?” using Acts 21:20 as his reference. Now let us see that verse in its context to understand what ACTUALLY transpired

Acts 21:18-21 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

That reference clearly mentioned the Jews that believed as those zealous of the law, NOT GENTILE CHRISTIANS in Ephesus, Corinth, Thessalonica, Collosse, Nigeria, America, Mexico etc like you and i. They were zealous of the entire law like feast of Pentecost, feast of tabarnacles, circumcision, Sabbath etc. The Jews were concerned that Paul was telling the Jews among the gentiles to stop adhering to Moses. It wasn't about Gentile Christians. If they paid tithes, it would be those eligible to pay and IT WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN TO ANY OF THE APOSTLES. NEVER. They knew what Moses said in the law therefore we can say without equivocation or fear of contradiction that They wouldn’t have paid it to the apostles and the apostles WOULDN’T HAVE DEMANDED IT of them except they were thieves and we all can agree they were not. That is about the Jews which believed and were zealous of the law. For the Gentile believers like you and I, see the conclusion of the matter in that same chapter and I pray our tithing brothers see this truth

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

The leaders of the church at Jerusalem who were ALL JEWS concluded through the leading of the Holy Ghost (Acts 15:28) that the Laws of Moses were NEVER expected to be observed by the Gentile Churches. They were not taught by Paul or any of the 12 apostles or other church leaders at Jerusalem. Some overzealous Jewish brethren tried to coerce them into it but the church leaders at Jerusalem stopped the nonsense and rightly so. The practice of the ordinances of the law had become the identity of the Jews so they continued in them but they HAD NO RAMIFICATIONS on their new status as Christians and were even more IRRELEVANT to the Gentile converts who never had a relationship with Mosaic laws and ordinances in the first place according to the decision taken by the church leaders under the guidance of the Holy Ghost. At this point, we can safely conclude thus

1.Early Jewish Christians eligible to pay tithes would have paid BUT ONLY TO LEVITES at the temple because that’s what the law said and they were zealous of the law and NOT TO THE APOSTLES as that would be transgression of the law they were said to be zealous about.

2.Gentile Christians were not expected to adhere to Mosaic law hence they NEVER paid tithes either to the Levites or to the apostles. They operated on the basis of freewill offerings.

So when did the apostles and church leaders start collecting tithes from Christians, whether Jewish or Gentiles? It was the Catholics who enacted the tithe laws in Christiandom after the council of Macon held in 585AD and it was strictly farm and animal produce. This is verifiable history.

The discussion in Acts 21:18-25 proves clearly and without ambiguity that when Jesus spoke about Tithes in Matt 23:23, he was addressing folks still under Mosaic law. It had nothing to do with believers after the cross. Tithing wasn’t the only practice he asked them to uphold but ALL THE LAW the scribes and Pharisees asked them to observe. See the proof from scripture

Matt 23:1-3 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,[2]Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:[3]All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Our tithing brethren need to be reminded of this scripture they quoted

2Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.

When they quote Matt 23:23 to prove tithes, they should remember Matt 23:1-3 that says they should obey all the law, not just pick the ones they can observe. When they quote Mal 3:8-11, they should remember Deut 14:22-29 They can however be free of this bondage and curse associated with not keeping all the law(Deut 27:26, James 2:10) if they realize that we Christians are not in any way expected to practice the law or it’s ordinances.

Again, the tithe advocates pull Matthew 3:15 out of context and apply it to a doctrine that can be found nowhere within the pages of God’s Holy Word. Nowhere does God say tithing is part of “fulfilling all righteousness.” That is a doctrine of man.

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

I think it’s important we once again remind our fellow discussants that we wouldn’t be discussing or arguing this issue but for the following fallacies and untruths that have been used to yoke children of God to mere men

1. If you don't tithe, you will burn in hell for ever.

2. Pay tithe so that you can be blessed, bask in good health, have husband, have children, plenty money, avoid calamity, accidents, sickness, financial tightness etc.

3. Pay tithe as eternal principle to prove Abraham is your father according to Gen 14 and Heb 7

4. Pay tithe to your pastor because he is senior to you in the order of priesthood of Melchizedek


END

Miwerds and Candour are to present next.

I am not sure which it will be: M5 or M6?

Awaiting the Presentation.

Thank Candour for the prompt response and conclusion on M5.

PRESENTATION M5

Only certain people (the Levite, the widow, the orphan, and foreigners taking refuge in the land of Israel) were qualified to receive tithes (Num. 18:24,26,28; Deut 14:22-29; Neh. 10:37-38)


a) The Levitical Tithe – To be given to the Levites in Israel.

Numbers 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
Numbers 18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.
Numbers 18:28 Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD'S heave offering to Aaron the priest.

Upon receiving the tithes, the Levites were responsible for taking a tithe of the tithe to the Temple Storehouse chambers:

Nehemiah 10:37-38 And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage. And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house.

b) The Feast Tithes – These tithes were to be taken to Jerusalem and eaten by the tither, his family, and the Levites there in Jerusalem during one of three Feasts each year. (see Deuteronomy 14:22-27)

c) The Poor Tithe – This tithe was kept on the tither’s property, to be given to the widows, orphans, Levites, and refugees in the land of Israel. This tithe, like the previous two tithes, was of food just as Deuteronomy 14:28-29 reveals.

None else had any authority to receive tithes, or to take tithes of the people but the specific people above.

And in the New Testament, during the time of the apostles, the tithes are still going to the Levites because the Levities had a command to take tithes for their duties at the Temple.… until 70 A.D., when General Titus, son of Vespasian the reigning Caesar of Rome attacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple uprooting it from its foundations and sending the Jews into a dispersion into all nations of the earth as had been prophesied by Prophets of old and even by Christ (Matt 24:1-3). Once the Temple was destroyed, the Levites were no longer doing the service they had been fulfilling for the previous 1500 years hence they no longer needed the tithes.

The tithe laws were fully and exclusively Jewish and obtainable in Judaism. They had nothing to do with Christianity.

Ephesians 2:14-15 [/b]For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

[b]Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Christ abolished the ordinances as Scripture states He did.

Even the apostles agreed

Acts 15:24 [/b]Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

again

[b]Acts 15:28-29 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;[29]That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well

and again

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

When then, did this rule sanctioned by the Holy Ghost change?

Of course the Roman Catholics borrowed it from Moses and made it a canon law for themselves in 585AD and even then, it remained FARM AND ANIMAL PRODUCE until the 1800s in America when it became cash.

The Levites were scattered after the destruction of the Temple. They could no longer take tithes of their brethren. We’ve proved that the apostles DID NOT take tithes of any Christian, Jew or Gentile when the temple was still operational. Can anybody tell us when they started collecting tithes of the believers?

To whom do we pay the tithes God instituted in the law of Moses to today?

END

REBUTTING M5

We love the heading of the M5 presentation, it literally says it all. "Only certain people (the Levite, the widow, the orphan, and foreigners taking refuge in the land of Israel) were qualified to receive tithes"
The emphasis on "were qualified" shows the thrust of the argument. We are not living in the past or under the law. We may need to start reminding ourselves that every hour now, so that it sinks in. i guess the adage of replacing one bad/poor habit with a good one applies. You should write it, say it, affirm it and repeat it until it sinks, "We are not under the law" in this dispensation.

That would do for a rebut, but to help everyone and those who like long readings and explanations, we would touch on the a,b,c listed.
a) The Levitical Tithe. This is the prominent tithe, and the one mostly alluded to in the remaining parts of the Bible. This is the one that goes in for the service of the tabernacle.
Num 18:21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Num 18:31 And ye shall eat it in every place, ye and your households: for it is your reward for your service in the tabernacle of the congregation.

Evidently, one main reason why this tithe was given was because of the service at the house of God. The reasonable and logical question to ask is if there is still service in God's house today. Can such services be rewarded? Of course, there is still service in God's house today and such services can be rewarded. We learn from inspired scriptures, and instruct ourselves to give the tithe as a reward for the service in the house of God. That is an apt application of 2Timothy 3v16. Service is no more limited to Jerusalem or to levites. Jesus has shed His precious blood to break the partition, to join together, to make one. Indeed, what God has joined together, let not man put asunder.
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

He made in Himself of two, ONE new man. That is why we are now the Israel of God. That is why we can boldly say that He has made us a royal priesthood and a peculiar nation. Below is the way, God described it in Isaiah.

Isa 66:12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
Isa 66:21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.


That was the future that was prophesied. "I will also take of them for priests and for Levites". A sincere study of the pentateuch shows that God chose the house of Levi to serve in the tabernacle AFTER He had said that the firstborns from every family would be the ones to serve. Some place in Samuel, during the time of Eli, God rescinded that decision. God is not constrained by man.
1Sa 2:30 Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me forever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honor me I will honor, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.

God is not constrained as to who He can use to serve in His house. He who is able to turn stones into children of Abraham, is equally able to make and take Gentiles for priests and for levites. With God, it is not a limitation of tribe. In Christ, there is no Jew or Gentile, and IF any man be in Christ, he is a new man. If you serve in God's house, you are not limited from enjoying the privileges of service. About who was responsible for taking a tithe to the Temple, there is no hard and fast rules about it. The scriptures record that Israelites took tithes to the temple. See these two instances.
Neh 13:12 Then brought all Judah the tithe of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries.
Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
Mal 3:10a Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse,

The tithe of the tithe is also a tithe by the way, and God reckoned it as tithe too. No one should be unnecessarily confused about the wordplay as it were.

b) The Feast Tithes- Mark explains this to be the tithe that the individual eats with family and levites at jerusalem. Today, we do not have to go to Jerusalem, thank God.
Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

All this tithe teaches is giving back to yourself and community, not being coveteous. Anyone can as well do this today as much as God gives you the grace. You can take about a tenth of your income, and actually spend on yourself and family, not necessarily at jerusalem. We get the purpose, the purpose is the main thing, not the letter. Learn to share with your family and give back to your neighbours and community with joy, its a feast.

c) The Poor Tithe- mark somehow forgets to mention that this was done once in three years. mathematically speaking, this is like giving 3% or is it 3.33% of your income to poor and needy folks around you. We deeply encourage this yet today. This is not in any way against us or enmity. this is not what Jesus nailed to the cross, or died to stop, like Mary Slessor sacrificed to stop the killing of twins in calabar. This one is very good work, and we will continue to do it if God permits.

Notice from all these lists that not just the levites recived tithes, even UNDER THE LAW. Meanwhile, we are not under the law. We have the Spirit of God, and we know the Spirit behind the Word, and the purposes for which the tithes were given. We are not like the people in Jesus' time who made the Sabbath something else according to the letter, and they continued to think that Jesus was breaking the Sabbath. They missed the purpose and the spirit of the sabbath. Let us also beware, so that we do not miss the purposes and the spirit of the tithe.
Now, talking about whether tithe is food. We have explained and would re-explain. What is food to you may not be food to me. So if ou tithe of your own food and i tithe of mine own food, leave God to judge and accept. Jesus' food was to do the will of His Father. Adam;s food and daily bread may not be yours, but they both are daily bread. It would be disingenous and ignorant for anyone to imagine that only farmers were to suffer from the Genesis 3 curse for instance.

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

A good Bible student would know that this passage is not just talking to farmers or about farming, but that it affects every occupation of man.

Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.

When we pray, Give us our daily bread, even the young ones can figure out that we are not just asking for farmers, but that it affects every facet of work we do, asking for God to provide for us. Sowing and reaping is not limited to crops and animals, this principle is strewn all over scriptures. The majority of scriptures is written in agrarian language because the economy was basically agrarian. The currency was agrarian. The money was agrarian, the measure of wealth and blessing was agrarian. This is why when God is saying "Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep. Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store." He's not just talking to farmers. Anyone working knows that the blessing is for him/her. Even today, christian teachers and lawyers say amen to the blessing. It is so simple and basic that we know what it means. it would be poor knowledge to state that the blessings are only reserved according to the letter, for farmers.
If for instance we have such pick and choose attitude to the scriptures, and read it just to the letter, one may easily conclude that tithes of animals was never given in practice. It is very rare to see tithes of animals given in the letter. It however would be foolhardy to insist that tithes of animals was never given. In practice, the scriptures record that ALL TYPES of tithe were given, even those not recorded in the pentateuch.

2Ch 31:5 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

Of course, we cannot forget the precious examples of Abraham and Jacob, whom the Bible recorded to tithing and vowing to tithe of more than agric produce. We serve the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, living people. We have shown with evidence that thousands of early believers gave tithes. There is nothing wrong with a believer giving tithes if he so chooses. All the excuses of what tribe the believers are, or to what tribe they gave are inconsequential. Tithes belong to God and we learn from the example of these precious believers, Abraham, jacob, and the thousands of believers zealous for the law. Even the pharisee, like the ant, the birds and the lily, has a lesson to teach us; we can tithes of ALL that we possess.

Our friends(Mark and Candour) have being very shy to tell us about the abolishing of the weightier matters of the law and of the greatest commandments of the law. They have chosen to pick on the tithe, and call it the enmity, and handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us. That is untrue. Jesus did not die to nail little things like tithe to the cross and leave the weightier parts of the law like mercy, faith and love. He did not die so that we can now be witches since we are not under the law, or so that we can observe times and enchantments. He died to deliver us from the Old agreement, and from the the devil, and from sin(the transgression of the law). The disciples knew that sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

We lose the true context of Acts 15 when we fail to read it completely and from the beginning.
Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
ye cannot be saved, ye cannot be saved,ye cannot be saved. this is the fulcrum behind the whole chapter and argument. Paul had no qualms with circumcision. If you notice, the first thing he went to do in the next chapter 16 was to circumcise someone. The grouse against circumcision or any keeping of the law, was if it was done TO BE SAVED, to obtain salvation, forgivness, or justification. it is by faith that we are saved or justified, not by any law or obedience.
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Act 16:3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.

Evidently, the apostles had no problems with circumcision, or temple rites and all that. But they fought against people turning to the Old Covenant of do this TO BE saved or accepted or justified. That is the burden, the enmity, the handwriting against everybody. We are in no way advocaing tithing to be saved. i hope we do not make this insinuation or mistake yet again.

Now, we know that the whole Word of God is inspired by God and profitable. Our actions are derived from the Word of God and its study. We are prepared to obey it as much as God gives the grace, irrespective of histories and dates in BCs and ADs. We are aware of the dark ages and how many things were lost, like true religion and the Holy Ghost baptism and gifts. We look unto Jesus and to His Word(the Bible). He is the Author and finisher of our faith, not AD500 and AD70s. Whatever happened then remains quite insignificant as compared to the Word of God, which abides forever. the apostles took more than 10% from Christians, Jews and Gentiles when the temple was still operational. This is scriptural fact. Someone who takes above 10%, say 50% or 100% has taken more than 10%. Seems so straight forward to see, one would assume. After its been said and done, our giving and tithing ultimately belong to God. We give them as unto God. They are part of the offerings of God.


END

RESPONSE TO REBUTTAL M5

We will once again remind our brethren that we are having this discussion because of a lot of Lies that have been told the children of God to force tithes out of them, particularly these four below

1. If you don't tithe, you will burn in hell for ever.

2. If you don’t tithe, you’ll have devourers like accidents, sickness, job loss, financial backwardness etc but if you do, you’ll have plenty money, sickness free life etc.

3. Pay tithe as eternal principle to prove Abraham is your father according to Gen 14 and Heb 7

4. Pay tithe to your pastor because he is senior to you in the order of priesthood of Melchizedek

But for the above lies, particularly the ones in bold, we won’t be discussing this issue. I also noticed that our brothers conveniently shied away from confronting head on, the truths and facts below

1.Early Jewish Christians eligible to pay tithes would have paid BUT ONLY TO LEVITES at the temple because that’s what the law said (NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR BEING CHRISTIANS) and they were zealous of the law and NOT TO THE APOSTLES as that would be transgression of the law they were said to be zealous about.

2.Gentile Christians were not expected to adhere to Mosaic law hence they NEVER paid tithes either to the Levites or to the apostles. THEY OPERATED ON THE BASIS OF FREEWILL OFFERINGS, NOT TITHES.

If the apostles DID NOT collect tithes, who gave the RIGHT to pastors of today to collect tithes from anybody? Where is the moral standing for them to condemn any child of God to hell because he/she refuses to submit 10% of his/her income to them? When the apostles whom God used to establish Christianity KNEW they had NO RIGHT under heaven to collect or ask for it and therefore DID NOT COLLECT OR ASK FOR IT?

If the pastors of today don’t know, the apostles and the early Christians sure knew these verses below

Numbers 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
Numbers 18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.
Numbers 18:28 Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD'S heave offering to Aaron the priest.

Isn’t it ironic that the tithers say, “You should write it, say it, affirm it and repeat it until it sinks, "We are not under the law" in this dispensation.” As if that is not what we’ve been telling them and everybody since this thread opened. It’s curious how they ‘attempt’ to say we’re not under the law but use the Law to justify their doctrine of tithes and use it to make people comply. If we are not under the law, why quote the verse below?

Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

Why would God call non payment of tithes robbery if not that he gave an express and clear command in the law? Incase you’re still in doubt whether Malachi was talking about law or not, see what he said just 2 verses before the verse quoted above

Mal 3:7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from my ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?

God accused the Israelites of neglecting HIS ORDINANCES (I trust we don’t have to explain that ordinances are laws, commands, decrees), and they asked him how they’d done so to which he replied in verse 8 onwards. I trust all bible owners know the rest of the words of this favorite scripture of pastors. Tithing is a law of God enshrined in the law of Moses. It will be nice if our brothers can get that.

Our brothers say ‘’ Evidently, one main reason why this tithe was given was because of the service at the house of God’’ and we wonder if pastors are the only ones that serve at the house of God. What about the choristers? The sanctuary keepers? The gatemen? Can’t they receive the tithes too? However this particular line of thought is totally irrelevant to this discussion because the temple or tabernacle of the Jews IS TOTALLY UNRELATED to the assembly of the body of Christ. Candour and Mark are each temples of God just as Image and RhymeyJohn are also individually temples of God. Whatever building we chose to congregate remains exactly what it is: Just a building like any other building.

Our brothers say, “We learn from inspired scriptures, and instruct ourselves to give the tithe as a reward for the service in the house of God.” And we ask them ‘Did the apostles miss this all important lesson of tithe as a reward for work in the house of God? Thank God our brothers know that the church at Jerusalem comprised mainly Jews who were zealous of the law and they knew they shouldn’t pay tithes to the church or the apostles. The early church subsisted on freewill givings, donations or offerings (Acts 2:44-45, Acts 4:32-37,Acts 11:29-30, Rom 15:26-27 etc), NO PRESCRIBED PERCENTAGES. If the Jewish Christians didn’t pay tithes to the apostles, is it the Gentile Christians that did?

Christ Jesus did indeed make both Jews and Gentiles one(Eph 2:14) and the facts is, He abolished the ordinances as Ephesians 2:15 & Colossians 2:14 clearly state. Abolished, taken out of the way and nailed to the cross.

Once again, if our brothers DO NOT know when tithes entered Christian lexicon, we will tell them. The idea of Tithes to support the official clergy of the Roman catholic church was first mooted at council of Tours in 567AD and ratified in 585AD at the council of Macon(We can’t ignore history) and even then, it was STRICTLY FARM AND ANIMAL PRODUCE just as it was clearly stated in the law of Moses which they copied.

Our brothers state that “we are the Israel of God,” and we wonder if pastors have become the Levites in this Israel of God? I trust our brothers are good bible students (we all are bible students) and would know or should know about the coming kingdom when Christ will reign physically here on earth? It’s beyond the scope of this discussion but when they quote Isaiah 66, we expect them to know that it’s still a very future dispensation. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH US NOW. They quoted the verses below

Isa 66:12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
Isa 66:21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.

In case they don’t know, the bible wasn’t divided into chapters and verses until 1228AD by Stephen Langton, Archbishop of Canterbury for ease of reading (sorry, we can’t ignore history because the bible didn’t just fall from heaven. It was written at particular points in history and the bible itself did not ignore history). So when they pick verses from Isaiah 66, you might lose the context because the gist didn’t start there. It started earlier and we can get a correct picture from chapter 65

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come to mind.

The question now is ‘has the new earth and new heaven been created? If read in context starting from Isa 65:17,You find that Isaiah 66 is speaking of the Millennial Dispensation which is still in the future and not the present Church age. Isaiah 66 says absolutely nothing of Gentile Converts in the Church age becoming Levites.

Our brother said, “A sincere study of the pentateuch shows that God chose the house of Levi to serve in the tabernacle AFTER He had said that the firstborns from every family would be the ones to serve.” How does this help the case that another person should be bold enough to appropriate the inheritance of the levites to himself today? God chose the Levites and willed his tithe to them, who are we to question that? Or rationalize that any other person can take it since he also does the work of God or works in our church meeting places today? I’ll really love our brothers to do another careful study and tell us if Prophet Elijah or Elisha had access to tithes? Were they not also doing the work of God?

God told Moses to number the firstborn males of Israel but he gave the service of the tabernacle to the Levites. From Exodus 27, where Aaron and his sons are said to be presiding over the Tabernacle and forward throughout the Law and the Prophets, it is the Levites who are over the House of God. That’s how God wanted it and it’s wise we left it like that

Our brothers said, “Some place in Samuel, during the time of Eli, God rescinded that decision. God is not constrained by man.” This is simply not true. Again, context of 1 Samuel 2 shows that what God rescinded was not the Levite serving in the Tabernacle, but rather it was the priest Eli and his family that God was removing from office. Note that Aaron had 4 sons(Ex 28:1) who all had equal rights to the priesthood but 2 died for offering strange fire to God(Lev 10:1). The 2 that lived all had plenty sons who also ALL had equal opportunity to be priests. If God removed Eli’s family, it doesn’t mean a total jettisoning of the Aaronic priesthood and surely not a removal of the Levites from temple service. God did not say Gentiles would rule the Tabernacle neither did he say any other tribe will take their place. From its inception till it’s destruction, the Tabernacle was always occupied by and served by Levites and God has not replaced them. Whosoever is interested in Levitical service and privileges should wait until the millennial reign. Even during David’s reign just some few years after Samuel died, the Sons of Aaron were still performing their duties. I Chronicles chapter 24 tells us clearly. The first 3 verses are below but you can read up subsequent verses

1 Chronicles 24:1-3 Now these are the divisions of the sons of Aaron; Nadab, and Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar.[2]But Nadab and Abihu died before their father, and had no children: therefore Eleazar and Ithamar executed the priest’s office.[3]And David distributed them, both Zadok of the sons of Eleazar, and Ahimelech of the sons of Ithamar, according to their offices in their service.

Also, read up the book of Ezra and Nehemiah(The two leaders of the exiles who came back from Babylon) and you’ll discover THERE WAS NEVER A TIME GOD TOOK TEMPLE SERVICE AWAY FROM LEVITES OR PRIESTHOOD FROM THE SONS OF AARON.

Our brothers said, “With God, it is not a limitation of tribe’’ but we tell them that in the body of Christ, there is no tribe (Gal 3:28). No levite, No priesthood save the high priest who is Christ himself. Christianity is not animal farm where some are more equal than others. We all are equal in the sight of God. If earthly acquisitions favours one more than the other, then it behooves the one with earthly goods to succor and support the one less privileged whether pastor or member. That is the constitution of the body of Christ. That is the way of the cross. Loving, sharing and providing ‘as everyman hath need’

Our brothers said ‘Notice from all these lists that not just the levites recived tithes, even UNDER THE LAW’’ We say thank God for this insight because this is what we’ve been telling them since we started this thread that Levites, widows, fatherless and strangers owned the various tithes requested in the laws of Moses. When they quote Malachi 3:8-11 to make people comply with the tithe, which category do they have in mind? The levites? Widows? fatherless? strangers?....or the unnamed tribe called pastors? Well under the Law, even prophets who were mightily used by GOD ARE CONSPICUOSLY ABSENT FROM THE LIST OF TITHE BENEFICIARIES GOD GAVE. Did God forget? Of course not. He alone knows why he gave a specific list and if the apostles did not wrest this from the beneficiaries, WHO NOW HAS THE RIGHT TO? The apostles limited their collections to freewill offerings. I see no reason why Christians of today should challenge what God instituted or change the practice of the apostles.

Our brothers said ‘’The tithe of the tithe is also a tithe by the way, and God reckoned it as tithe too. No one should be unnecessarily confused about the wordplay as it were’’ But we wonder how many pastors will accept 1% of members income as tithe today because that is what the tithe of tithe amounts to (I trust our brethren know this). Not more than 1%. In fact It could even be lesser if you take the case of a Jew who had increase of 18 goats. He can only give one as he can’t give 1.8 goats. And if he can give a tithe of the tithe, then pastor will receive nothing as he can’t give 0.1 goat. The law said ‘whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD’ (Lev 27:32). God differentiated between the tithe(to the Levite) and the tithe of tithes (to the Priest). Our brothers get ahead of themselves and take the joke too far when they tag God’s clear and concise commandment a word play.

Our brothers said ‘’God is not constrained as to who He can use to serve in His house. He who is able to turn stones into children of Abraham, is equally able to make and take Gentiles for priests and for levites’’ and to this we say all Christians work for God or in the house of God. Choristers work for God. Ushers work for God. Sanctuary keepers work for God. Sunday school teachers, children teachers etc all work for God. There is no sacred place in Christianity or a Christian gathering or building that is prohibited from any member of the body of Christ so we have absolutely NO USE for any Levite wanabe in Christianity today but even more comforting, neither does God. When Christ died, the curtain hiding the holy of holies was rent in twain, No Christian has any right to partition the body of Christ into Levites (with Sacred duties) and non levites. That practice belongs in Judaism and whoever wants to practice Judaism is free to do so as long as it’s not brought into the body of Christ.

Our brothers insist that the currency of the Bible was agrarian. Yet, even in 1410BC, when the tither was told to take his tithe to a certain place, he was told he could sell the tithe for what? More agrarian produce? No! He was told he could sell it for silver.

Deuteronomy 14:25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:

The fact that tithes could be sold for silver proves that the farm produce was not the currency of Bible times.

Genesis 17:13 (1898 B.C. ) He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Genesis 20:16 (1898 B.C. ) And unto Sarah he said, Behold, I have given thy brother a thousand pieces of silver: behold, he is to thee a covering of the eyes, unto all that are with thee, and with all other: thus she was reproved.

Abraham bought Sarah’s burial cave for 400 shekels of silver. Jacob bought food from Egypt with Money. Money had been in existence even before Abraham was born. History will tell you this.

Tithes belong in the law of Moses. Our brothers agree that we are not under the law. They should therefore stop picking convenient practices from the law, but more importantly, they should stop panel beating the law to suit whatever use they wish to put it to. The apostles set the example of freewill offerings and that is what Christ himself taught them when he sent them out to preach. He asked them to receive whatsoever people gave them, he didn’t ask them to collect tithes because he knew better and we know that too today. If Christ didn’t need it, neither do we. If the apostles and the early church didn’t need it, neither do we.


END

Tomorrow is compulsory sabbath oh. We'd be replying after tomorrow thanks.
Happy New Year in advance, all.

Image123: Tomorrow is compulsory sabbath oh. We'd be replying after tomorrow thanks.
Happy New Year in advance, all.

[size=20pt]HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL PARTICIPANTS ON THIS THREAD DISCUSS AND TO OUR AUDIENCE!!![/size]

Happy New Year to all. Be blessed!

RESPONSE TO RESPONSE M5

We are having this discuss on tithing, why we tithe or think christians should tithe, and why we do not tithe or think christians should not tithe. We are not having this discuss BECAUSE OF lot of lies. There are lies in every place and in every doctrine. There are lies about heaven and hell, salvation, prayer, blessing, curses, and deliverance. There is almost no subject in christendom that does not have its lies and abuses. We choose to be pro-active, not driven by lot of lies. Again, we are aware that almost every christian subject is abused and misused in one form or the other. And we may not all agree on, or understand any given topic the exact same way.

1. If you don't tithe, you will burn in hell for ever.

2. If you don’t tithe, you’ll have devourers like accidents, sickness, job loss, financial backwardness etc but if you do, you’ll have plenty money, sickness free life etc.

3. Pay tithe as eternal principle to prove Abraham is your father according to Gen 14 and Heb 7

4. Pay tithe to your pastor because he is senior to you in the order of priesthood of Melchizedek

For the life of me, i have NEVER heard any of the above quote preached, except here on nairaland where antitithers keep saying it. i do not agree with any of the four statements above in an exact way. It is either an exaggeration of what may have been said, or perhaps it was never said, like i've never heard any preacher say these. Again, not surprised IF it is so said. Every teaching and aspect have abuses, and the abuses do not remove the use, real use and intended use. There is no question posed in the above quote BTW, dunno why someone would say on the sister thread that we refused to answer these questions. What questions exactly? Jesus christ is the owner of hell, and it is up to Him to determine and judge who goes to hell. i am not called to judge and no one human has a right to condemn anyone to hell. Tithing has its blessings like every other obedience to the Word of God. God is the God that makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, on the just and the unjust. There are many roads to that sun and rain(blessings). Tithing continues to remain one way. Prayer is a way, giving is a way, hardwork is a way, persistence and diligence are ways. And so on and so forth. There are many 'evil' people who do not pray and go to church or believe in Jesus, yet they receive sun and rain. This does not negate the fact that prayers have its place, or doing good, or giving, or honesty, or tithing, or diligence etc. That is a whole other long discussion on its own. We do not know about paying tithes to prove Abraham is your father. Neither are we aware of paying tithe to your pastor because he is senior to you in the order of priesthood of Melchizedek.

Now, there is nothing to shy away from. The base position of the antitither is that christians do not tithe and that early christians never tithed. Now that it is being evidently shown that some early christians might have tithed and many of the apostles obeyed the law, you folks are coming up with the excuse of being non-jewish. Sorry fellows, a christian is at liberty to choose to be a jew.
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Gala 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; i find myself one with my brothers and sisters in Christ, so spare me the putting asunder.

Logically, there should be no hassles whatsoever about anyone receiving 10%. Every Bible student knows that the apostles collected far more than 10% from early century christians. If someone collects $50 or $100 from you freely, what are we shouting about him having no right to collect $10? It makes no sense, really.

Act 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Act 4:35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

Some fellows died in the first century church after they lied by keeping back part of 100%. Some Levi man sold land and brought 100%. The early christians had no problem bringing far more than 10% to the church. They were ready to give their eyes for Paul, as it were.
Gala 4:15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.

The early christians were heavy duty givers. They gave everything, so much that it later affected them adversely. Like we've being saying, what we read from them and from others in the Old Testament is our EXAMPLE. It is not our law, its not by compulsion to do exactly what they did. We can learn from them, just as we can learn from Moses, Abraham, Jacob and co. ALL SCRIPTURE remains profitable to us. It's not about rights under heaven or on top of hell. We need to understand what we are doing and why we are doing it. Put things in context and prove all things. We have proven the tithe, and it works for us.

Anyone who understands context would know that the tithes were given to the levites BECAUSE of their service in the house of God, not just because they are from the tribe. It was conditioned on the service. IT WAS their pay, their salary.
Num 18:21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Today too, we can learn from this principle as christians. The tithe can be used to help with church work, to help those who work in church and for church work. Tithe is paid/given to God. It does not belong to any pastor. i've heard a couple of popular preachers say that they do not take church salary, yet they practice tithing. Church money is not only spent on pastors, i do not know why Mark and Candour would say this. Church money is spent on many things. There are some churches that have full time workers in different sections, some pay their missionaries, some pay their instrumentalists. Some use church money in church budgets for different things from buying things, to maintenance, to programmes, to charity etc. Each church leadership has the Spirit of God available to direct them in their spending. It is not our job here, whether tithers or antitithers, to dictate how each church spends their proceeds.

We'll say it again, we are not under the law. That means we are not boxed in or limited to the law. It does not mean that we are averse to or antagonistic against the law. The law qualifies under ALL SCRIPTURE, and the man of God has the privilege of using it and other scriptures as the Spirit of God leads.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

God's ordinances or laws are not the enmity. As is becoming customary, Mark and candour shy away from the law that includes honouring parents, mercy, faith, not being a witch, not sleeping with your brother's wife. They only cherry pick on tithes and any few other that tickles their fancy. The law/ordinance of God is not the enmity that was blotted out. What was blotted out was the Old Covenant/Agreement. This has already being explained.
Again, and yet again, tithes are given to God. i have never given tithes to any pastor. It is often collected by the ushers, the offering box or bowl or bag. Each church then have their administrations on how they spend the proceeds. Some church may give from it to the needy, or use it for crusade, or for salaries, or whatever. Freewill giving has always being, before the law. It is a practice that should be done. Many tithers give free will giving. We give other offerings too, we give alms. i give my tithes freely.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

We are not saying that history should be ignored. Thankfully, i know one or two things about church history too. Our point is that church history is not as important or at per with the Word of God, the Bible. Tithes were given before church history. Tithing did not start at church history, and we look unto Jesus and His Word as our example, not at church history. Church history has its gory and dark details, we are not following church history, whatever it is, but Jesus. The Omniscient Spirit of God has given us accounts of tithes being given centuries before the law by Abraham and Jacob. God remains the God of Abraham and Jacob. He did not reject their tithes. The Holy Spirit and Moses called what they gave tithes. But antitithers assume that they know more than Moses and God, when they say that tithe is ONLY what they see under Leviticus 27. To us, TITHES is what we see as described in all Scripture, not just what is seen in one chapter or passage.

Tithes has been given to God as a practice centuries before Moses was born. Tithing did not start 567AD, that would be a twist of history. Again, councils and synods are not what we follow as foundation, we have a more sure word of prophecy(the Scriptures), and we would do well to take heed to the things that are written.(2peter1). Anyone thinking that there was no believer anywhere in the whole world that gave tithes, or that was faithful in any other Word of God has to be omniscient to insist on that. Christianity is not limited to Rome or to history books. To be mild, it would be like Elijah thinking that he is the only one serving God. Thank God he did not continue to insist after his presumptions. God knows every man's work and deed, history books don't.
Now, when we say that Isaiah 66 has NOTHING to do with us now, that is so wrong. Jesus said the kingdom of God is come unto you. no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. the kingdom of God is within you. Paul stated that the kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. There is definitely a sense in the which we are already in the kingdom of God. We are both agreed on the other sense in which we are expecting Jesus and His reign. Its like someone saying that Joel 2 has nothing to do with us but future. Stephen quoted Isaiah 66v1 as applicable in his day.
Isa 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

Paul alluded Isaiah 66v19,20 as applicable in his day.
Rom 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
Isa 66:19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
Isa 66:21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.

The above is the 'great commission' and its attendant promise of success paraphrased. When we start looking at all those OT quotes in the many epistles of the new testament, according to the letter, i guess we would not be far from making similar deductions as IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH US NOW. let us walk in the Spirit. All being said, the point still remains that the tenth was given to cater for those that served in the tabernacle. There is absolutely nothing wrong in learning from this today. We still have folks who serve in the tabernacle. Neither Jesus or the apostles, or Elijah or David served in the tabernacle. however, it has to be noted that the apostles received far more than the tenth. The Bible states that they were worthy of it.

Num 3:12 And I, behold, I have taken the Levites from among the children of Israel instead of all the firstborn that openeth the matrix among the children of Israel: therefore the Levites shall be mine;
Num 3:41 And thou shalt take the Levites for me (I am the LORD) instead of all the firstborn among the children of Israel; and the cattle of the Levites instead of all the firstlings among the cattle of the children of Israel.
Num 18:6 And I, behold, I have taken your brethren the Levites from among the children of Israel: to you they are given as a gift for the LORD, to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Today, God does not use only the firstborn or the tribe of levi, or Isrealis, He can use anyone as He sees fit and meet. It is shooting ones' self in the foot to say "it is the Levites who are over the House of God. That’s how God wanted it and it’s wise we left it like that" We all are privileged that Christ has broken the wall of partition and rent the veil of the temple. He did not leave it like that.

About Eli and 1 Samuel,
1Sa 2:30 Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me forever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honor me I will honor, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.
1Sa 2:33 And the man of thine, whom I shall not cut off from mine altar, shall be to consume thine eyes, and to grieve thine heart: and all the increase of thine house shall die in the flower of their age.
1Sa 2:35 And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed forever.

the above three verses summarise the passage. God was not only referring to Eli's house as cut off. See verse 35 referring to Jesus and His priesthood. Not only Eli's house, but his father's house. Observe in verse 33 that even some of Eli's house were still serving, though with curses. We do not have to wait for the millennial reign(whatever that is) to serve God or to serve in God's house. We can still be occupied now in God's house(whatever that is) till Jesus comes. God is watching and taking note literally.

Mal 3:14 Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?
Mal 3:17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
Mal 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

When our friends and fellow discussants(Mark and Candour) say "No priesthood save the high priest who is Christ himself.", they forget that we are a priesthood, a royal priesthood for that matter. There can be no high priest without priests. The priesthood was CHANGED, remember?
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:

Excuse me, we are not all the same in the body of Christ. There are elders in the body of Christ, there are babies, there are children, there are men, there are offices, and there are ministries. There are great ones in the body that need to serve more. There are overseers and shepherds. We cannot all preach on the pulpit, or all be elders, or all be pastors at the same time. There are some worthy of double double honour. We cannot shy away from these facts.

Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
1Co 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

When Candour and Mark say "They should therefore stop picking convenient practices from the law". they are forgetting that they told us that tithe is a burden, and they said that it is a burden that the apostles could not bear even. Now, at their fancy, they say that it is a convenient practice. Are we jumping from goal post to goal post in order to make points, or are our hearts open to understand the issues at hand? It is up to each individual.

Again, The tithe of the tithe is also a tithe by the way, and God reckoned it as tithe too. No one should be unnecessarily confused about the wordplay as it were. A tenth of a tenth is still a tenth. God reckoned it as the same. Th people gave 10% of all their proceeds to the Levites. the Levites gave 10%, not 1% of all their proceeds.
Scenario; If 10 people gave 5,000 each as tithe to the levites, the levites would receive a total of 50,000. The levites would then take 10% of 50,000(whichis also 5,000) and give it to the priest. In the end, all parties had given a tenth. there is absolutely no need to be confused or try to confuse with the words there. tithe is a tenth, not 1%.
Heb 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
Num 18:21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Num 18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up a heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.

Finally, what is the definition of money, what is the definition of currency? Money is a medium of exchange. It is not limited to paper money or cheques or coins. We have shown how food i.e agric produce was used as salary even from the Bible. In an agrarian society, it is near impossible to say that any individual would not b involved in farming. That someone is a teacher or carpenter does not exclude the person from farming. Even in our today's rural areas, the indigenes go to the farm. In Bible times, even educated Scribes and Pharisees are assumed by Jesus to be giving tithes, how much more peasants and relatively unlearned people like the disciples and Jesus.
We do not need rocket science to figure out that people go to farm and harvest in a agrarian society. Chief Obasanjo, former Nigerian President is known as a farmer. It did not stop him from more duties as a soldier, general and president. Here is one proverb in Israel.

Pro 10:5 He that gathereth in summer is a wise son: but he that sleepeth in harvest is a son that causeth shame.

You could not be sleeping during harvest time, that was their major economy. That was their job from the womb as it were. It is easier to see that these fellows tithed than to imagine that they did not. The fact that the likes of Isaac, Moses, David, Saul, Hezekiah, Caleb, etc were not recorded to have tithed or some other practice like circumcision or burnt offerings does not mean that they NEVER did these things. Same goes for Jesus and His disciples. Silver and gold(what you seem to be calling money)was not essential to the common man as was agricultural produce. A old man like Peter and Luke can boldly recall silver and gold have i not. Even Jesus had to perform a miracle at a time to use 'money' to pay tribute. The essential, the basic was what they had, and what they tithed from. today, paper money has become more essential. It has become our daily bread, and it is what we pay the tithe from. Context and maturity in understanding is key. No need to go BC on us again, nobody said that silver and shekels did not exist. What we are saying is that there were several things used as a medium of exchange in an agrarian society, and agric produce was more essential for the common man and individual.

The apostles collected far more than 10% from early christians without batting an eyelid as it were. giving a tenth precedes the law, it would be deceit to say it is limited to the law. Abraham gave a tenth, and so did Jacob vow to. These are BCs before the law. Again, the apostles do not hold the claim or discovery of freewill offerings. They do not have the patent. It was done before the law and during the law. Everyone can and should offer freewill offerings. There is no fight against that.


END

R6 comes in inside 12hours, merry new year.

Image123: RESPONSE TO RESPONSE M5

We are having this discuss on tithing, why we tithe or think christians should tithe, and why we do not tithe or think christians should not tithe. We are not having this discuss BECAUSE OF lot of lies. [color=#770077].

For the life of me, i have NEVER heard any of the above quote preached, except here on nairaland where antitithers keep saying it. i do not agree with any of the four statements above in an exact way. It is either an exaggeration of what may have been said, or perhaps it was never said, like i've never heard any preacher say these.

Spot on. It's only anititithers who creat such propaganda . "IF YOU DONT TITHE YOU WILL END UP IN HELL FIRE" etc .

PRESENTING R6 Our tithing is because Jesus never condemned it and suggested that it ought to be done. (Luke 11:42)

Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of the christian faith. He is the One christians are supposed to follow, the One who ought to be obeyed rather than men. The above Scripture was spoken by Him while He was here on earth physically. Anyone that knows Jesus knows that He is the Truth. He is the Word made flesh, the Way personified. Jesus Christ said Himself that the words that He speaks are Spirit and Life. Therefore, we ought to give the more earnest heed to His words.

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth forever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Did you notice that three different writers wrote the exact same words above? My words shall not pass away.

For emphasis, consider these other translations below.
(GW) The earth and the heavens will disappear, but my words will never disappear.

(ISV) Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear."
(LITV) The heaven and the earth will pass away, but My Words will not pass away, never!

This one is enough sermon to meditate on. If we would indeed ruminate on these, we would understand the gravity of the words of Jesus. Jesus is the same forever. He is the same yesterday, today and forever more.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever.


In other words, He has not changed His doctrine or opinion. He has not changed His stance and advice. He said;
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

In other words, He has the final say. He has all authority. He is in perfect agreement with God the Father of light.
Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

It would be good if we gave heed to what He said about tithes. He said
Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Here it is AGAIN from Matthew, so that we can be doubly sure He's not making a slip in opinion.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

These ought ye to have done. His words cannot pass away. He could not be giving advice that is not the will of God to anyone, even if such a fellow is the devil. These ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Are we to leave judgement, mercy and faith undone? Certainly not!

Understand that Jesus Christ had the fullness of the Holy Ghost, He was given the Spirit without measure. He had God with Him.
Joh 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Imagine that this Omniscient Jesus, having the Omniscient God and the Spirit in Him. Yet He never condemned tithes. i mean, He should have known this purported "danger of the tithes" that antitithers go on and on about. He could have warned us about tithes, instead HE SAID "THESE OUGHT YE TO HAVE DONE" This, coming from my Lord, is good enough for me. It is good enough for us. Jesus NEVER condemned tithes. The Holy Spirit in all holiness, speaking expressly in all those epistles, NEVER CONDEMNED TITHING. He NEVER had one issue against the tithe, not even one. None of the apostles EVER wrote anything to discourage anyone from tithing. Twenty seven (27) books, and not one verse, to condemn or discourage anyone in any dispensation from giving the tithes. the way antitithers go on about tithes, one would think it was the infamous unpardonable sin. We have folks that have made a ministry to speak, preach and write against tithes. There are fellows on this forum who care less for many of Jesus' words and commandments, who would not be caught or found preaching against sin, or speaking out against sin, folks who would never say anything for the cause of Christ in the face of atheists and other glaring unbelievers, but are so vehement when the T word is mentioned. Its sometimes so bad that i've read someone say that an atheist is closer to God and better than a tither. But thank God for God. Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever has it on records saying that tithes ought to be done.

No apostle, no disciple, no scripture, not one Bible verse that says tithing is wrong, or ought not to be done.
Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

i would not want to talk much. i think that if one did not hear these many lines, he would not hear even if i wrote ten times more many lines on this. Nonetheless, i find it good to touch on an issue that i've being repeating about the New Covenant life. The New covenant life is a life of faith. Just like the illustration given earlier about the law/Old covenant being like a school teacher but the New covenant being like college. In the primary school or junior school, it is more of force. You're late, you get flogged or punished. you did not do your homework, or cut your nails, or wash your socks/stockings, or you wore black sandals instead of brown. So many pesky details and punishments involved under the school tutor. that is the way the law was. But under the new covenant, though one should not be late, should do the homework, be clean, follow school regulations etc, there is some more maturity in a sense. Your lecturer is not likely going to flog you, else we'll come make fun of your school on this very forum, as a glorified secondary school This college life is more like the New Covenant life. It is a life of "ought tos" It is a testament of LET HIM HEAR.

Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mat 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mar 4:23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
Luk 8:8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit a hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Rev 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

The final chapter of the Bible sums it up 'nicely'
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

People should not be trying to force out an answer. Nothing is exactly by force in a sense. It's hard to pin stuff to hell for instance. Someone's asking will you go to hell if you don't tithe, or pray, or go to church, or read the Bible. The new covenant is not customarily with immediate consequences like the Old was. There is a ought to about the whole thing, not exactly a forced kind of life. Ought is more of a should be case, a desire. God wants us to obey Him of our free will. That's more like His perfect will. If you're praying, or tithing, or doing anything, that you are doing it willingly. That is when thee is utmost joy. Yes, sometimes as soldiers, we may do stuff that we may not love, but the normal life the new testament aims is one of ought to.

1. You ought to tithe.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

2. You ought to be healed/delivered
Luk 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

3. You ought to pray.
Luk 18:1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;

4. Christ ought to suffer. He could have called twelve legions of angels.
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

5. You ought to serve one another.
Joh 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

6. You ought to obey God.
Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

7. You ought to support the weak.
Act 20:35 I have showed you all things, how that so laboring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
Rom 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.

As we round off this presentation, the summary again is that Christ Jesus said that tithes OUGHT TO BE DONE. And he that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. In the words of trustman on the sister thread, "God’s final Word - is superior to ALL. We need to say ‘Yes, Sir’ rather than engage in a wrestling match with God. What we should seek is how the Son is superior, what things the Son has brought that shows his superiority, and so on."


END

REBUTTING PRESENTATION R6


Our brother wrote: Our tithing is because Jesus never condemned it and suggested that it ought to be done. (Luke 11:42)

As we have pointed out in the past, the tithers, while saying they don’t tithe because of the Law, ultimately return to the Law, saying “Jesus suggested it ought to be done, but Jesus didn’t merely suggest it ought to be done, He was reminding his audience that THE LAW OF MOSES SAID SO hence doing it was NON-NEGOTIABLE. See Matt 23:1-3 if you doubt this

Again, we will ask our readers to look again at the verse in which Jesus said tithing should be done

Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

We hereby ask our brothers thus, Are you a Pharisee? We are not, and we seriously want to believe our fellow discussants are not either. However we don’t want to claim omniscience over their own lives so we’ll not assume until they tell us. However, we want readers to note the following from this verse

1. Jesus was talking to a people under the Mosaic Law, who were required to obey that Law (Malachi 3:7-11)
2. The tithes Jesus said the Pharisees were tithing were tithes that the Law required; i.e., agricultural tithes. (Leviticus 27:30-33)

Our brothers say ‘’ Jesus NEVER condemned tithes. However, we ask How is the tithing been done today true to the tithe laws that Jesus Christ was asking the Pharisees to uphold? The answer: the tithe practiced today is totally false to the laws God gave Moses on tithe collection and administration. The tithe laws of Moses were exhumed, horribly distorted, panel beaten and then sold to Christians today as doctrine but it’s majorly for the benefit of those in the top echelons of the various empires in Christianity today. The Lord Jesus Christ, during His Earthly ministry did not condemn tithes but again, He never changed them neither did he substitute beneficiaries. The tithe Jesus didn’t condemn are 1. The tithes of Agric produce to the Levites(Num 18:21) and a tenth of the tithes to the priest (Num 18:26-28) 2. The Tithes of every three years to the widows, fatherless and strangers. and given to specific people namely Levites, Widows, fatherless, strangers (Deut 14:27-29) 3. The tithes which the tither himself ate at a feast where God designated for such(Deut 14:22-26)

How true are they to these tithe ordinances?

Our brothers say ‘’ The Holy Spirit in all holiness, speaking expressly in all those epistles, NEVER CONDEMNED TITHING’’ But did he ask Christians to tithe? The Jews had been tithing in accordance with Mosaic law for hundreds of years. This is known by all of us. However, See the master’s words

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

It was unbearable for a Jew not to be under the law. Remember Peter arguing with God about eating things the law condemned (Acts 10:11-16) and he even had to remind Cornelius how it was UNLAWFUL for him(Peter) to come into the house of a Gentile(Acts 10:28) but he came because God decreed otherwise. Even after Cornelius’s salvation, some of the Christians (Jews) at Jerusalem still condemned Peter’s visit to an uncircumcised man (Acts 11:1-3). These were some of the hard things that Christ said they couldn’t bear if he told them, but he made a promise

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come

Some Jewish Christians were hung up on the law. It was the law or nothing else

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses

However, hear what apostle James, the leader of the Jerusalem church said

Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, Saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

He even denied all these Judaizers sitting in Moses seat. THEY DIDN’T GIVE SUCH A TEACHING TO THEM. Apostle James said a commandment to gentile Christians to keep the law, MEANT A SUBVERSION OF THEIR SOULS. Are our brothers trying to subvert our souls here? Then hear what he concluded under the leading of the Holy Ghost

Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;[29]That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

The Holy Ghost thought it good not to burden gentile Christians with THE LAW OF MOSES except the listed commands and we are sure no one will find tithing there. Are our brothers trying to be more knowledgeable than the Holy Ghost who has now come to teach us all things as promised by our Lord and savior?

Apostle James himself a Jew was still carrying out the traditions of his fathers. See what he told apostle Paul, a fellow Jew

Acts 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law

Jews in Jerusalem had heard that Paul was stopping Jews in gentile cities from observing Mosaic law(Acts 21:20-22) and to avoid their harassment, he asked Paul to dispel their fears by observing a particular law. However, concerning Gentile Christians (You and I), he didn’t forget what the Holy Ghost had said through him years earlier. He repeated it in the very next verse

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

This in my opinion is as clear as daylight. GENTILE BELIEVERS WERE NOT REQUIRED TO OBSERVE PRACTICES IN THE LAW. Our brother quoted Heb 13:8 to show that Jesus doesn’t change with an obvious insinuation that the tithe be continued but we wonder did the apostles and early Christians who carried the banner of Christianity NOT get this memo? We’ve made the statement below a few times and we still await a refutation from our brethren discussing with us

1.Early Jewish Christians eligible to pay tithes would have paid BUT ONLY TO LEVITES at the temple because that’s what the law said (NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR BEING CHRISTIANS) and they were zealous of the law and NOT TO THE APOSTLES as that would be transgression of the law they were said to be zealous about. Even more serious is that THE JEWS PRACTICING JUDAISM AND THEIR LEADERS WOULD NEVER HAVE ALLOWED THE Christian leaders take over the rights and privileges’ of the Levites.

2.Gentile Christians (You and i) were not expected to adhere to Mosaic law hence they NEVER paid tithes either to the Levites or to the apostles. THEY OPERATED ON THE BASIS OF FREEWILL OFFERINGS, NOT TITHES.

What do tithe preachers know today that the apostles didn’t?

It is truth that Jesus said his words will not pass away. It is also true that God doesn’t change but he has the right to change his program. God instituted Sabbath with all its strict regulations but any Christian observing Sabbath today is simply putting himself in a bondage that God didn’t ask of him. God instituted feast of tabernacles, feast of Pentecost etc, but any Christian hung up on all those today is simply stunted in his growth and will do well to grow up. The law says a menstruating woman must not come near the sanctuary but any woman observing that today is simply superstitious. The law has served its purpose. As a matter of fact, in 52 A.D., the Apostle Paul wrote a letter to the Galatians telling them that they were not to submit to the Mosaic Law, telling them they were to “cast out the bondwoman and her son.” (Galatians 4:30-31) telling them that they were not under the Law, but under grace.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.[25]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a school master.

It is nice to wear socks for warmth etc so the secondary school authorities insist on socks which must be white for all students. If I didn’t wear socks or it wasn’t white enough, I received strokes of the cane. However, as an adult now, if I like I can wear red, black or even pink socks, no one can query me because I am now an adult. There are even times I feel uncomfortable wearing socks and I won’t simply because I don’t feel like it. Once again, no one can query or punish me because I’m an adult. So it is with the Christian. The lesson is not about wearing white socks but its about wearing socks for warmth etc. Giving is the lesson or principle we learn, not paying 10%.

The verse below condemns those who would place themselves under the law.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

If you wish to be under the law, then you must obey everything the law says. Moses said it in Deut 27:26 and the Holy Spirit reminded everybody through the pen of the apostle Paul.

Our brothers say ‘’What we should seek is how the Son is superior, what things the Son has brought that shows his superiority, and so on." This is in reference to a comparison of Aaronic priesthood and Melchizedek but where is the command to tithe there? In Hebrews 7, the chapter that says that Jesus is superior, we find that the command for tithes is still there. But still, it is the command for Levites to take tithes of the tribes of Israel...

Hebrews 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

Those tithes are, "according to the Law" and not 'according to Abram's tithe’. According to the Law... Agricultural tithes. (Lev. 27:30-33) and given to specific people (Deut 14:22-29 and Num 18:21, 26-28) but in any case, this law for Jews was discarded in 70AD when the temple was destroyed and Jerusalem sacked. There is no scripture in the whole bible that transfers tithe collection and administrative powers to the Christian church or its leaders. Our brothers "wrest Scriptures," when they discard this clear and concise format for tithes.

Our brothers quoted all the below and I wonder how they can miss the very obvious ODD one out of all. Who can spot the odd one out of the seven references? Well, Mark and Candour can and it’s the very first reference with scribes, Pharisees clearly standing out as those he was talking to. My brethren, Matt 23:23 was clearly not talking to the disciples but more impirtantly, it SURELY ISNT TALKING TO YOU TODAY or are our brothers the Scribes and Pharisees? Are they the hypocrites Christ was referring to there?

1. You ought to tithe.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

2. You ought to be healed/delivered
Luk 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

3. You ought to pray.
Luk 18:1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;

4. Christ ought to suffer. He could have called twelve legions of angels.
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

5. You ought to serve one another.
Joh 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

6. You ought to obey God.
Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

7. You ought to support the weak.
Act 20:35 I have showed you all things, how that so laboring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
Rom 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.

Our brothers say ‘’the way antitithers go on about tithes, one would think it was the infamous unpardonable sin’’ We affirm to them that indeed many christian leaders and even tithe collectors and preachers on Nairaland have made non adherence to this Mosaic law the unpardonable sin for which you’ll pay a lot of heavy penalties. They say you’ll suffer loss and calamities on earth, then suffer for all eternity in hell fire. Chief among the penalties they’ve poured out from their covetous minds are below

1. If you don't tithe, you will burn in hell for ever because you’re a robber and all robbers are going to hell.

2. If you don’t tithe, you’ll have devourers like accidents, sickness, job loss, financial backwardness etc but if you do, you’ll have plenty money, sickness free life etc.

Our brothers say they’ve NEVER heard all these before and we actually are touched by their innocence. Since they have not heard the two nonsense and false statements before, we make bold to tell them it is preached everywhere and if they pay attention more, they’ll surely hear and read it. Hell videos spread like wild fire through the country and even on Nairaland with morbidly exciting stories of how non tithers are the most tortured in hell fire. Infact a protither gave a catalogue of 9 different visits to hell which in his mind confirm this evil theory. A devotional by a popular G.O was posted on Nairaland explaining how God will send devourers to non tithers except they repent of this sin and add 20% late tithe remittance fee (this is not an exaggeration). I’m glad our brothers said they don’t subscribe to these rubbish statements and one or two tithe promoters have also sought to distance themselves from these lies. We hope they’ll help spread the good news because with respect to the cross, those two statements are actually lies from the devil himself. For folks who refuse to preach against sin or how GRACE ISN’T A LICENSE TO SIN, we all must join hands together to castigate them just as we expect unity in condemning those who peddle the above falsehoods in Christianity today. God intends his children to be spirit led and when they are, the corruption of the flesh will be relegated.

The Holy Spirit whom Christ promised to send to guide us and tell us things he didn’t tell us because we couldn’t bear them has come and he has spoken and he said ‘NOT TO BURDEN GENTILE CHRISTIANS WITH UNNECESARY THINGS’ It will do us good to heed his call.


END

RESPONSE TO REBUTTAL R6


We have explained that we are not under the law. That means we are not boxed in or limited to the law. It does not mean that we are averse to or antagonistic against the law. The law qualifies under ALL SCRIPTURE, and the man of God has the privilege of using it and other scriptures as the Spirit of God leads.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

The Old Testament Bible (genesis to malachi) qualify under ALL SCRIPTURE. Hopefully, Mark and candour can understand that from henceforth. Our scope is beyond Moses. Its like when a person/believer says that he is not stealing or murdering just because of the laws of the land. That he has something more than the laws of the land driving him, some other force or motivation. Its not that he doesn't respect the land or is averse to it, but there is something else, something more, driving his actions. May God give us understanding.

We are grateful to God that Mark and Candour have not denied that Jesus said that tithes ought to be done. In fact, they talk about "the verse in which Jesus said tithing should be done". They also said "The Lord Jesus Christ, during His Earthly ministry did not condemn tithes"

Now, to their excuses. A good christian ought to know that the Bible is God speaking to him/her. That is the way all followers of God have looked at the Word of God. Serious followers of God do not pass the buck. Israelites in Jerusalem did not look at the Word of God as God speaking to Israelites in the wilderness. Jesus did not look at the Bible as speaking to one particular generation. He was wont to say things like the below.
Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoreth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Some smart alec among the audience might have gone to read Isaiah 29 and concluded that Isaiah was talking to his(Isaiah's) generation, or to some other fellows. Well, like we have said from the start, we honour God and we honour His word as relevant to us. We take ALL SCRIPTURE as profitable to us, and we believe fully that Luke 11:42 is Scripture. Going by the antitithers' logic of pick and choose, the words Jesus spake are irrelevant to them. They are only useful to be admired, or perhaps read, but not applicable or profitable to them. Some have insinuated that obeying the words of Jesus is tantamount to practising Judaism. What Mark and Candour are telling us is that the words Jesus spake to pharisees are useless, and have passed away, to paraphrase. Below by the way are some other words Jesus said to pharisees.

Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Mat 22:21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

The above are some few of the salient truths that Jesus spoke to pharisees. We do hope that the above are not irrelevant to to our antitithe brethren. BTW, there is nothing wrong with being a pharisee. Paul the apostle said he is a pharisee.
Act 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

Now, Mark and Candour want readers to note the following, "Jesus was talking to a people under the Mosaic Law"
As in duh, that kind of applies to everything Jesus said in the gospels! He talked to and lived with such folks almost all His life. His Words are Spirit and Life, He said. Some of the questions to ask Candour and Mark is that "Is Luke 11:42 Scripture? Is Luke 11:42 Spirit and Life? Is Luke 11:42 truth or not? Has Luke 11:42 passed away?"

They also say "The tithes Jesus said the Pharisees were tithing were tithes that the Law required; i.e., agricultural tithes." Fortunately for all literates who can read, Jesus Christ made no such distinction, neither did the Bible. Tithe is simply referred to as tithe or a tenth. No scripture makes distinctions or separations of which one is agricultural tithe, or which one is Moses'tithe, or which one is God's tithe, or which one is Jacob's tithe. Tithe is simply recorded as tithe or a tenth in all Scripture.
We await Mark and Candour to produce scriptures that state any distinction or difference in tithes. We have shown how Scriptures record people UNDER THE LAW giving tithes of more than agricultural produce. Here are some AGAIN.

Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
(GNB) I fast two days a week, and I give you one tenth of all my income.'
(ISV) I fast twice a week, and I give a tenth of my entire income.'

2Ch 31:5 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.
(GNB) As soon as the order was given, the people of Israel brought gifts of their finest grain, wine, olive oil, honey, and other farm produce, and they also brought the tithes of everything they had.

When the writer of the hebrews was talking about tithes, both before the law and under and after the law, he made no distinction or separation of tithes.
BEFORE- Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, paid tithes in Abraham.
UNDER- Heb 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
AFTER- Heb 7:8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

When we attempt to add to God's Word to suit our doctrine, let us be very careful on the way we insist. God’s final Word is superior to ALL. We need to say ‘Yes, Sir’ rather than engage in a wrestling match with God. Tithe remains simply a tenth. That is so basic and so simple that even the uneducated in Israel understood it. Today, we seem to know too much book like King Agrippa might say.
Our attempt here is to discuss tithes, from a biblical perspective, not about top echelons of the various empires in Christianity (whatever that means). A christian should be moved and rooted on the Bible, on Christ, not on points or lots of lies he/she heard about tithe or any doctrine. i have heard a lot of lies about Jesus, lot of lies about God, lots of lies about heaven and hell, lots of lies about holiness. But those are not the things that form my worldview. We encourage all our brethren to let their views, understandings and beliefs be centred on God, not on whatever lies or abuses they might have heard.

Mark and Candour ask "But did the Holy Spirit ask Christians to tithe?" The real question should be did the Holy Spirit ask christians not to tithe? This is one of the many questions our friends are shying away from. The Holy Spirit inspired all Scripture. By implication, He approves of ALL Scripture, including Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42, and the Old Testament Bible. Through James, He calls it the royal law, and the perfect law of liberty. Through Peter, He says it is a MORE SURE Word of prophecy. Through John, He says "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. " Through Paul, He says "so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:" So, its a question of belief or unbelief. Do Mark and Candour believe Luke 11:42? Do they believe all things written in the LAW and in the prophets? Or do they think it is Judaism, and written to pharisees, or whatever other excuse?

Mark and candour quoted Jesus, someone who was talking to people under Mosaic law. They said
John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

They imply that one thing Jesus could not tell them was thou shall not tithe. But we thought the common view of antitithers was that they were not tithing already? How then is it one of the many things they could not bear to hear? How did He or the Holy Ghost forget to mention it specifically. It is only antitithers that continue to mention this. What the holy Ghost seemingly forgot to tell ALL the apostles, what He could not tell Oyedepo, Oyakhilome, Kumuyi, Adeboye, and many other christians who claim to have the Holy Ghost and produce Holy Ghost like acts in the contemporary times. Candour insinuates that He has told himself and Mark, and maybe Kunle. Sorry, we don't buy that.

Now, indeed, IF the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do? Acts 15 does not start from verse 28. Verse 1 clearly states the root of the matter.
Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

All of Scriptures, including the epistles of the apostles are not averse or antagonistic against the law or the Old testament Bible. They quote them freely and speak great things of them, using them as buttress, foundation and support for what they have to say. How do we then try to use one chapter to contradict the rest of Scriptures?
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Joh 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Joh 5:39 Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God.

Acts 15:1 clearly shows us that the problem was not the law, but that some people wanted others to keep it TO BE SAVED.
Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

This is what brought the controversy. If circumcision was the controversy, Paul would not circumcise someone in the very next chapter. He would not have later said
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
(GNB) For whether or not a man is circumcised means nothing; what matters is to obey God's commandments.

There is NOTHING WRONG with obeying the Word of God, and tithing is found in the Word of God. It is something Jesus said ought to be done. The problem however would arise if we are obeying it TO BE SAVED, or telling others to obey it TO BE SAVED. Salvation is by grace through faith, not by works of obedience. Like James and the early church, we do not give such commandment. We do not tell others to keep any law to be saved.
Again, When Candour and Mark imply that tithing is to burden gentile Christians. They are quick to forget that they just said we "should therefore stop picking [b]convenient practices from the law". We hope that they soon make up their minds, and be consistent on whether tithing is a convenient practice or a greater burden. At their fancy, they say that it is a convenient practice. Are we jumping from goal post to goal post in order to make points, or are our hearts open to understand the issues at hand? It is up to each individual.[/b]

As an aside, or a bonus, let me add this. Candour says "Apostle James himself a Jew was still carrying out the traditions of his fathers", i think we should note and differentiate between traditions of men and commandments of God. The Bible is not tradition of men, it is the commandment of God. We should not glibly conclude or imply that the Old Testament Bible is tradition of men. Jesus did not think it so. i'm afraid now to quote Jesus, dunno the next thing folks will say about Him. Well, i must quote Him.

Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mar 7:10 For Moses said, Honor thy father and thy mother; and, whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
Mar 7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
Mar 7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do aught for his father or his mother;
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

This quote above shows Jesus making a distinction between the traditions of men and the commandments of God.
The tradition of men- as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things. If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban.

The commandment of God- Moses said, Honor thy father and thy mother.

Notice that the Word or Commandment of God was what Moses said, that is Honour your father and mother. The problem was not the tradition, the problem was that they upheld the tradition above at the the expense of God's commandments. They rejected the commandment of God, that they may keep their tradition. What James told Paul to do was a commandment of God on purification. There is nothing wrong with it. However as we have explained earlier, it is like using a pager instead of a smartphone, or using a lantern, when a diesel generator is available now. GENTILE BELIEVERS WERE NOT REQUIRED TO OBSERVE PRACTICES IN THE LAW TO BE SAVED.

Indeed, Early Jewish Christians eligible to pay tithes would have paid BUT ONLY TO LEVITES at the temple NOT TO THE APOSTLES. Also, early christians paid MORE THAN 10% to the apostles, making nonsense of the present day fear of giving the apostles 10%. Same applies to all christians, whether jew or Gentile, they gave MORE THAN 10% in the church. An apostle wrote to a gentile church to give in proportion. The text rightly states every one of you. This was the mode of operation in an early church. They had a specific day, and EVERY ONE was to give. i guess every one means EVERY ONE? Free will every one. Newsflash, i say it again, i give my tithes free will.

Mark and candour have said "God doesn’t change but he has the right to change his program." They only forgot to tell us any Scripture where God changed His will on the tithe.The Scriptures are very clear on the sabbath, on circumcision, and on sacrifices, and on who we are in Christ Jesus. We are waiting for similar scriptures on tithes. Paul told the Corinthians "Let us keep the feast", but candour feels that is stunted growth. They have refused or forgotten to tell us what to do with the weightier matters of the law like mercy, judgement and faith. They've being loudly silent about the greatest laws of love as found in the book of Moses.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.[25]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a school master.

Just like we have explained in the Acts 15 passage, any one using the law to justify or save himself is wasting his/her time. We gave them no such command. We are justified by faith. This passage is clearly about justification. The law does not justify us.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Before faith came, that is before the new testament/agreement, people tried to be justified by the law. To be justified by the law, you have to obey everything, which BTW is almost impossible. But now that faith is, we are justified by faith. this is the thrust of the whole epistle as it were. may God give us understanding. Giving the tenth is a form of giving. We would like to ask Mark and candour, can the tithe be given? We see tithe given in the scriptures, we want to know if they have a different opinion.

In 70AD the temple was destroyed and Jerusalem sacked, but today, we are the temple and the church of God.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

We now operate under the priesthood after the order of Melchisedek, Jesus Christ being our High Priest. The house of God is still here and there is still service in that house. There is none of Jesus'words that are odd to us, even if Mark and Candour think they are odd. Jesus Christ is our Lord, Mark and Candour are not.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Luk 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will show you to whom he is like:
Luk 6:48 He is like a man which built a house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
Luk 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built a house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

One should be more careful and not in a rush, when we hear eternal words as this.
Luk 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.
Heb 1:1 God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


God spoke to us by His Son, we're hearing here that that is not true. That the Son was speaking to pharisees, and judaism. Again, whatever anyone might have said or exaggerated about the tithes, let us look at the Word of God and of Jesus who said tithes ought to be done. Let the Word of Christ dwell in us richly, not the abuses and misuses we may see or hear around us. Hell videos are not specifically tithe preaching or preachers. Hell videos say a lot of things, like about restitution, unforgiveness, stealing meat in the pot, taking matchstick without permission etc. We are talking about Bishop Oyedepo, or any of the popular preachers that see tithes in their Bibles, coming to make those statements that you guys implied to be very common. i have never heard them say it, i have only heard antitithers say it. It is very common with antitithers, they preach that often. God spoke at sundry times i.e many or various times by the prophets. Let us not limit those sayings of God to mere traditions of men. God has spoken to us by His Son Jesus. One of the things He said was that tithes OUGHT TO BE DONE, AND NOT TO LEAVE THE OTHER UNDONE.


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