Image123:

i meant rest na and whatever comes with Sunday. Seeing Mark's post though.

I rest at odd hours. LOL

I do not travel a lot, except the 400 foot walk to the mailbox and back on mail days. I have actually gotten quite good at it. Even have learned to do so without my cane. Although I still take my cane with me for safety purposes and insurance. If someone were to hit me, and I did not have my cane with me, they could say I walked out in front of them. Not knowing about my blindness, an accident could be made to be my fault. So, I carry my cane at all times.

As to Sunday rest, it seems all my Sundays are as restful as any other day of the week. I no longer attend Church services after being kicked out of the last one I had been a member of for seven years.

Why did they kick me out, you might ask? Because of the very discussion we are having here. They found out I had not been giving them their required tithe money. They also found out I was teaching on the internet the truth concerning the monetary tithe requirement doctrine. They voted me out in a secret meeting.

Why do I say "secret meeting"? Because neither my wife, nor myself were informed about the meeting... And we were members of the Church. The Bylaws stated that all members were to be informed of business meetings. It is obvious they had us voted out in their hearts and minds long before the meeting took place.

Response to Rebuttal R3

Our good friends have said "We should all have utmost respect for the Word of God. Who are we to question how God does things?" this is our very essence and should be foundational on everything we do as children of God. respect is seen in our actions, beliefs and thinking. See for instance what sort of respect the psalmist had for the Word of God.

Psa 119:103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
Psa 119:162 I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great spoil.
Psa 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth forever.
Psa 119:126 It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law.
Psa 119:136 Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law.

Thy word is true from the beginning. From beginning to the end. Every word of God is pure. Again, let me plainly re-state that God's law is not just Exodus to deuteronomy, or Genesis to Deuteronmomy, or Genesis to Malachi. God's law is Genesis to Revelation. Even Jesus referred to the Psalms as law.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods
Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Joh 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
Psa 109:3 They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause.

The whole Word of God is God's law. Of course the five books of Moses are part of that. It is all of it that we are to meditate on and search. Paul said Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
There is what is called the law of Moses, and sometimes shortened as 'the law'. However, all of God's Word is also law as we have seen from Jesus. And He considered is own words also in the same vein. This is why He stated that His Words will not pass away, the same thing He said about the law.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
i'm sure we understand that "one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." is not just referring to the books of Moses, but to all of God's Word.
When we talk of the books of Moses, inside it, we have what we call Mosaic laws i.e the laws Moses wrote down. These are not the ONLY laws in the Word of God. In fact there were laws before the laws God gave Moses. Abraham, Enoch, Noah etc all knew some laws. Moses himself knew some laws before going to the Mount to receive from God. They were not lawless before the Mosaic law.
Exo 18:16 When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them known the statutes of God, and his laws.

The Mosaic law actually came with the Covenant, the Old Covenant, or Old Agreement. The Old Agreement was simply God proposing to them that He would give them laws, and if they obeyed them, they will be acceptable. That was their route to justification, obey laws to be justified. It is in this Covenant that we have many ordinances and the Levitical priesthood. This Covenant is also known as the law, or the law of Moses. This covenant, or agreement is what is AGAINST us. It's an agreement that does not pay/favour us. That is why it is against us, as we cannot meet the agreement. It is not God's law that does not favour us. Paul said that the law is good and holy and righteous and spiritual. he said we establish the law. But the covenant(Old Covenant), the agreement, the document Moses and Israel signed, it was against them, and against anyone who wants to go that route. Please, the reader should perhaps re-read this, and clearly understand.
This is important because many people today still live in that same Old Covenant or agreement. An agreement that states that IF we obey God, then we will be justified. This is why many atheists and non christians have a problem with God and Christianity. They cannot believe or accept that justification is by faith in Jesus. They believe doing good, being moral should be enough to justify us. Not knowing that all our morality and righteousness cannot avail. Some people think if they obey God and the golden rule, God should not condemn them. The golden rule or law BTW is what Jesus said. That is,
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Do to others what you want them to do to you. Many people live this way, or try to live this way for justification. They believe and reason that they should be in God's kingdom for doing that. Being good, obeying one law or the other. Some will try to obey the laws of Jesus or of Paul. Love your neighbour, love your enemies, be courteous, be moderate, think good things etc. These are lovely laws but are never God's route for us to be saved or justified. This is what the apostles were against. They were against such covenant or agreement, KNOWING that it does not work. God’s Word is forever settled in Heaven, it cannot be useless or void. We need to understand that Genesis is also God's Word, just as Numbers 18 is also God's word. One did not cancel out the other. Abraham did not tithe to the levites, he was not under the law. We also that are not under the law cannot be mandated to tithe to levites. Even under the law, it was not only levites that got tithes. People gave a tithe to themselves and their neighbours. People gave to widows and poor people. It is not only levites that took tithes even under the law. And we are not under the law. Jesus Christ came to establish the new covenant. The Old one could not be sustained. Man could not obey all of God's laws, so he could not be acceptable or justified. But in Christ, by faith we are acceptable in the beloved, and justified, not because of obeying any thing, but because of faith in Jesus. Even if you love everybody, and give your body to be burned, that cannot save you. Loving everybody cannot justify anyone. The new commandment of love cannot make anyone righteous in God's eyes. Keeping laws and commandments cannot be used to make anyone righteous. It is tantamount to tempting God. Obeying God's law is not tempting God, it is when we want to show to God that we are righteous without Him, that is tempting God. When we try to keep commandments to be saved, we are tempting God, as Israel did. This is what some people wanted to do in the early church.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

This people wanted everyone to be circumcised so that they can be saved. Talk about using the law unlawfully. there is nothing wrong with circumcision. Paul circumcised Timothy, but it was not to save him or make him justified.
Act 16:3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.
This is immediately after Acts 15! You see, the problem was not with the law of circumcision. It was with using the law, any law to obtain salvation. Some have tried penance, self abstenence, piety etc, to obtain salvation. Again, if anyone wants to give the tithe to be acceptable or saved, he is on a wrong route. Paul said circumcision is nothing, it is not the big issue, if one really understands what is at stake.
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

The problem was not with circumcision or any of God's laws. But using it unlawfully was a problem. we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully. Nothing wrong with circumcision if a man uses it lawfully, but when you want to use it as a means to salvation or justification, not only Paul, even me, i can fight you oh. The same thing happened in Galatians, as some jews came and others were carried away with their dissembling. They were COMPELLING people to be circumcised as a means to justification. They were giving circumcised people preference, they were classing themselves as superior, and would not even eat with uncircumcised people.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Notice again that it is the wrong use of the law that was the problem. Using it as a means to salvation, to justification. Taking people back to the Old agreement of i do something to be saved. In the new covenant, Jesus/God does the work so that we can be saved. There is never enough we can do to be saved, that is why the old covenant was against us. We were guilty on so many counts.

i hoped the foundation be established that every Scripture is divinely inspired and profitable, that Jesus and the apostles treated them so. This was to correct statement like "Jesus was not speaking to the New Testament Church". With such statements, there is no stopping a throwing away of the whole Old testament bible and a good portion of the New Testament Bible too. Believers are not the ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth team. The Word of God is not history book, for us to learn and learn without any relevance, impact, impart, and applications to us.

We give tithe of what God increases us with. If God increases us with currency, then we tithe of it. Tithe is a tenth of income. It is not something we do to be justified before God. i've heard of folks that obey a 'do not tithe' law, because they want to be justified. They believe that if they tithe, they stand to be condemned or to lose their salvation. So there is a i MUST not tithe law that they obey, so as to be justified. This is old covenant pattern. The main point about Abraham's tithe and jacob's tithe is that God and Moses recognised that what they gave was a tithe. They did not say that it did not qualify under God's criteria. The Holy Spirit called it tithe, and it is acceptable.

Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

i hope we realise that God's law is not what is referred to as carnal commandment. The Word of God is not carnal. Paul said it is spiritual, of course we don't need Paul to say that before we know it. But nonetheless.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

It would be contradictory to say the law is spiritual, then say the law is carnal commandment. What is needed is to rightly divide the Word, and find out what is carnal. What is carnal is the ordinances, the agreement made under the Old covenant/Levitical covenant. Where you had to obey these and that to be clean or saved or accepted. That commandment and agreement never made anyone perfect. All these ordinances and agreement ie the Old Covenant/agreement is disannulled in the new covenant. we are no longer under that agreement. The agreement was unprofitable as it did not fulfil its purpose. man could not keep it, it was a weak agreement. We have a strong agreement under Christ. these are the issues being discussed in the Hebrews, not some tithe. Tithe was used in the preceding verses to demonstrate that their was a priesthood geater than levi's.
All of God's word is summed up in Love, from genesis to revelation. It's all leading us to love towards God and love for ourselves as humans. This is what Jesus and the apostles said.
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


Charity is above all. the end or goal or aim of the commandment is charity. the greatest of these is charity. if there be any other commandment, it is summarised under love. Any commandment. Love is the fulfilling of the law. But love is not a means to justification or salvation. It is by grace that we are saved through faith. Not by any lovely or burdensome commandment.

END

That is such a pity, Mr Mark. BTW, away from intense tithe discusses, testimonies like the one Mark mentioned above could help cool tension. I welcome it. Also, without bias and not because I am anti-tithe, I want to say Rebutting R3 has the best lay out so far as lay out of presentations on this thread, so far, is concerned.

I would encourage future presentations to imitate this. We can even go over the past presentations and simply do some editing. The advantage of a good presentation coupled with a fine lay out is that it makes for ease of reading. Our texts are understandably long but with a fine presentation, reading will be easier. This coming from a blind man indicts all of us. Thank you Mark for your testimony. I hope I will be permitted to share my own tithe experience with organized church in the nearest future.

Thank you Image for the Response to Rebuttal to R3.

Response to Response R3 should come in by 6am in the morning.

Response to Response R3



Again, we have no doubt that God’s Word is to be respected. Proper respect of God’s Word is only done by
reading the Word of God and applying it to its proper geographical, and
historical context.

Jesus told the Jews to search the scriptures because the scriptures testify of him (John 5:39). They show who he was and what he came to do.

Hear Paul the apostle

Acts 26:22 KJV
Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

He affirmed in the above verse that the prophets and Moses talked about things that should come and we know they meant Christ the messiah. Even Moses in the wilderness made a prophecy concerning the coming of Christ.

Deuteronomy 18:15 KJV
The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

So a true Christian and bible student CANNOT discard or disregard the old testament otherwise he will lose sight of the word of God which is Christ.



Those defending the monetary tithe state that the Old Mosaic/Levitic Laws were carnal ordinances that were unable to save or to justify sinful man. Again, we would wholeheartedly agree.



And because they were not able to save or justify sinful man, there had to be a sacrifice. That sacrifice being the One spotless Lamb Jesus Christ. He is the only One whose blood was needed to cleanse us from sin. It took His Righteousness to stand in the gap
before an angry God.



Now, when Jesus died according to the Scriptures, was buried, and rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, our Salvation was not the only thing that was accomplished. In His death, the “Old Covenant, Old Agreement, Mosaic Law” died also.



Ephesians 2:14-15 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;



The Law of commandments that was against us, that Mosaic Law, was abolished by Jesus Christ.



Man no longer has a command to “Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse.” (Malachi 3:10) That was part of the Old Covenant, Old Agreement… it has been abolished, cancelled out by the Lord Jesus Christ. Yet, the funny thing is, those who teach the monetary tithe doctrine, ultimately all go back into the Law to Malachi 3, telling us to "Bring the tithe into the storehouse."

Was the Law abolished as the Word of God says? or not? If not, then God's Word is a lie. If it has been abolished, then those that say God wants the tithe to be brought into the storehouse are teaching their own doctrines and claiming them to be God's instruction.

The Greek word for “abolished” in Ephesians 2 is the word “katargeo”. It’s definition:



Strong's Greek Dictionary

2673. katargeo

Search for
G2673 in KJVSL

katargew
katargeo kat-arg-eh'-o


from 2596 and 691; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively:--abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.

Rendered completely idle, ceased, done away with cancelled, made of no effect.



God did away with the command to tithe through the Sacrifice of His Son. We have now been brought into a new Covenant.



Hebrews 8:12-13 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The Abrahamic Covenant, like the Mosaic Covenant, is not New. It is Ancient. Given to Abraham in 1921 B.C.. The Abrahamic Covenant is more than 500 years older than the Mosaic/Levitic covenant. Hebrews 8 is clear. We have been brought into a NEW Covenant, not brought back into an ancient Covenant.

The Old Covenant (Mosaic/Levitic) was decaying. In other words, it was dying, ready to vanish away.



The New Testament Church was being brought into a New Covenant, a New Agreement. Thus far, we have not been show tithing being taught or established. in the New Covenant.



If we return to the time before Moses, we concur that they were indeed Laws prior to Moses. Even in the Book of Beginnings, known as the Book of Genesis, we read:



Genesis 26:1-5 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar. And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.



Abraham kept the Laws of God. But what were those Laws that Abram kept? Can we truly say that God commanded Abram to tithe with all certainty? Of course not. Because there is not one single instance of instruction given to tithe prior to the Mosaic/Levitic Law written down for man to read.



We do, however, know that the pagans tithed to their gods. There is evidence from recorded history that the
Babylonians gave tithes of war spoils. According to "The Assyrian Dictionary of the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago, Vol. 4 "E”, the ancient Babylonians tithed to their sun-god “Shamash.”




We must remember that Abram was a Babylonian, who came out of the land of Ur of the Chaldees..



The point is, Abram’s tithe could have been something God commanded in the Laws He established, or it could have been because of an ancient practice that Abram adapted from the pagan Babylonians.



We are not told why Abram tithes, so it would be equally wrong to say he did so because of an ancient pagan practice as it would to say that he did so because it was commanded by God.



Again, I remind those defending the tithe the seriousness of saying something was done for a specific reason when the Bible states no such reason. Or to say someone did something that the Bible does not say they did.



Proverbs 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.


Where it Bible is silent, we must remain silent, for we could be found to be in err of we speak where the Bible has not spoken.



But regardless of the reason Abram tithed. It is clear that once God gave His tithes to the Levite, anyone else who may have been previously been receiving tithes on behalf of God could no longer receive them. If they did, they would be in direct contradiction to the command of God, who said:



Numbers 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.



The tithes... God gave to the Levites. It does not get any plainer than that. If Melchizedek were still alive at the time that God gave the tithes to the Levites, his right to receive tithes was abolished at that point.



Those who defend the monetary tithes say, “We give tithe of what God increases us with.” I would have to ask, “Do you?” Did not give you your house? Your car? Your clothes? Your food? Your computers? Etc.? Were tithers born with all these things? Or were they not increase given to you over the years?




Why is it that in God’s Word increase is seen to be more than money, yet man redefines that to be money alone in order to tithe only money?



The truth of the matter is, of all who say that they tithe increase, probably the majority don’t.

Another question that arises when we hear 'we give tithes because the bible is to be regarded' is whom do you give the tithes to today? Melchizedek? Jesus? Levites? The poor?

If tithes are still something that we are to give, where is the instruction found informing us to whom we are to give our tithe to? The pastor of the Church says from the pulpit that the tithe is to be given to the Church. Where is that instruction found in the Word of God? Or is it just man’s assumption that the tithe is to go to the Church?

If we are going to say that man must tithe today, but not base the tithe on the Mosaic/Levitic Law that the Word of God declares to be abolished, then where is man supposed to tithe? Abram did not tithe to a storehouse. There were no storehouses existing in Abraham's day that the Bible speaks of. Nor did Abram tithe to God's Temple. as that also was inexistant in Abram's day.



We know all our giving gets to God, but who consumes tithes on earth today the way priests consume offerings and Levites consume tithes in the old testament?

END

Presentation M3



Abram’s tithe was of war spoils (Heb. 7:4)


Hebrews 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

Numbers 31:27-31 And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation: And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep: Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for an heave offering of the LORD. And of the children of Israel's half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beeves, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD. And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

Abram’s tithes (see Genesis 14:18-20 and Hebrews 7:4) were not the same as what God required under the Mosaic/Levitic Law from the spoils of war.

Abram’s tithes were clearly revealed to be a tenth of the spoils he had recovered from the rebellious kings who had pillaged Sodom and Gomorrah and taken the goods and the citizen’s captive.

But God required far less from the spoils under the Mosaic/Levitic Law:


a) of the children of Israel, God required only 1/50th of the spoils of war, equaling two out of every hundred

b) of the soldiers who had taken spoils in battle; God required 1/500th, equaling two out of ever thousand.


A far cry short of being ten out of every hundred!

That said, we cannot with all certainty say that Abram’s tithe was because of a Law instituted by God.

God said in Malachi 3:6:

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

God does not change. So what happened with the tithe? In Abram’s time, the tithe he gave was not the same tithe that God stated was t be given/paid under the Mosaic/Levitic Law. Abram’s tithes were war spoils that could consist of anything and everything; i.e., food, threads, shoelatchets, etc.. The Levitic Law was of agricultural nature only; i.e., seed of the land (garden produce and herbs) fruit of the trees (pomegranate, fig, olives, olive oil ) and every tenth animal to pass under the rod.

The two tithes are about as identical to each other as a pencil is identical to a potato. If God does not change, and He commanded the tithe that Abram gave to Melchizedek, why the change in tithes once the Dispensation of the Mosaic/Levitic Law was given?

Abram was not said to have tithed his own property, only the recovered goods that belonged to king Bera. Yet, under the Mosaic/Levitic Law, one tithed that which one grew from his own garden, in his own orchard, or was born of his own livestock. If God does not change, why the discrepancy in the property rights?

“To the victor belongs the spoils! “ seems to be the cry. I could accept this if the original owners of the spoils were all dead, (there would be no one to return the spoils to) Yet what if the original owner of the spoils are still alive, as was in the case of Bera king of Sodom? Would not those spoils be the property of the original owner?

END

Please, we would be requesting for time for the rebut. By God's grace in the next 7 hours i.e before 4pm nigerian time(i guess that should be 10am in misssissippi).

Image123: Please, we would be requesting for time for the rebut. By God's grace in the next 7 hours i.e before 4pm nigerian time(i guess that should be 10am in misssissippi).

OK. We wait. Thanks.

Image123: Please, we would be requesting for time for the rebut. By God's grace in the next 7 hours i.e before 4pm nigerian time(i guess that should be 10am in misssissippi).

close. Only off by one hour. Seven hour between us, making it 9:00 AM

Mark Miwerds: close. Only off by one hour. Seven hour between us, making it 9:00 AM

Oh okay, hoping i would not have to even ask more time. i'm caught up in roaad traffic at the moment. Still hoping though. Rhymej's being busied and i've been in a place with internet network and electricity issues. On my way homeeeeeeee.

Rebutting M3

Let us take another look at Numbers 31.

Num 31:14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
Num 31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
Num 31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
Num 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

This passage is the incidence when Israel fought with the Midianites. The Midianites had lured the Israelites into fornication, and Israel had being plagued and many thousands died. In this instance, there were specific instructions for what to do concerning the Midianites. Specific instructions are not general instructions, although they may be emulated. Like God told Moses specifically to speak to the Rock, or to stretch his rod over the Red Sea, or as they lifted up Moses' hands while the army was fighting. These instances are not laws for every season or event. Yes, it can be repeated, but it is not a general rule to be obeyed by everyone facing such scenerio. Joshua did not stretch his rod on river Jordan, he did something else. Elijah did not stretch his rod, he parted Jordan with his cloth. Elisha followed his example. Examples can be followed and as the Holy Spirit leads us, but they are not necessarily laws for the general populace or for all time. Any reader of the Bible knows that the passage above did not become a standard for battle or for spoils. In some other battles, the Israelites had captives of any age.
There were some battles where even the cloth was not to be taken, not to mention human beings. Like the one against Jericho where only Rahab was spared. There is however a general rule in the passage which Eleazar the high priest chipped in and he qualified it.

Num 31:21 And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses;
Num 31:22 Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead,
Num 31:23 Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water.
Num 31:24 And ye shall wash your clothes on the seventh day, and ye shall be clean, and afterward ye shall come into the camp.

It had to do with their laws on purity and cleansing. Their spoils were unclean until it passed through water. The verses that followed this instruction were just for this specific battle. They were not necessarily followed in subsequent battles. Time and space would fail me to show so many battles fought after this, where nothing of such was observed or practiced.
Num 31:26 Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation:
Num 31:27 And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation:
Num 31:28 And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beefs, and of the asses, and of the sheep:
Num 31:29 Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for a heave offering of the LORD.
Num 31:30 And of the children of Israel's half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beefs, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD.
Num 31:31 And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

Consider David's account in his fight against Amalekites. The spoils were shared equally among the soldiers, both those that went to fight and those that did not.
1Sa 30:22 Then answered all the wicked men and men of Belial, of those that went with David, and said, Because they went not with us, we will not give them aught of the spoil that we have recovered, save to every man his wife and his children, that they may lead them away, and depart.
1Sa 30:23 Then said David, Ye shall not do so, my brethren, with that which the LORD hath given us, who hath preserved us, and delivered the company that came against us into our hand.
1Sa 30:24 For who will hearken unto you in this matter? but as his part is that goeth down to the battle, so shall his part be that tarrieth by the stuff: they shall part alike.
1Sa 30:25 And it was so from that day forward, that he made it a statute and an ordinance for Israel unto this day.

Then David of his own volition sent portions of the spoil to many of his friends in different places.

1Sa 30:26 And when David came to Ziklag, he sent of the spoil unto the elders of Judah, even to his friends, saying, Behold a present for you of the spoil of the enemies of the LORD;
1Sa 30:27 To them which were in Bethel, and to them which were in south Ramoth, and to them which were in Jattir,
1Sa 30:28 And to them which were in Aroer, and to them which were in Siphmoth, and to them which were in Eshtemoa,
1Sa 30:29 And to them which were in Rachal, and to them which were in the cities of the Jerahmeelites, and to them which were in the cities of the Kenites,
1Sa 30:30 And to them which were in Hormah, and to them which were in Chor-ashan, and to them which were in Athach,
1Sa 30:31 And to them which were in Hebron, and to all the places where David himself and his men were wont to haunt.

David did not follow the Numbers 31 pattern. Jehoshaphat did not, neither was the pattern repeated during the time of Elisha, when Israel fought with Syria.
2Ch 20:25 And when Jehoshaphat and his people came to take away the spoil of them, they found among them in abundance both riches with the dead bodies, and precious jewels, which they stripped off for themselves, more than they could carry away: and they were three days in gathering of the spoil, it was so much.
2Ch 20:26 And on the fourth day they assembled themselves in the valley of Berachah; for there they blessed the LORD: therefore the name of the same place was called, The valley of Berachah, unto this day.

They simply stripped off for themselves.

2Ki 7:15 And they went after them unto Jordan: and, lo, all the way was full of garments and vessels, which the Syrians had cast away in their haste. And the messengers returned, and told the king.
2Ki 7:16 And the people went out, and spoiled the tents of the Syrians. So a measure of fine flour was sold for a shekel, and two measures of barley for a shekel, according to the word of the LORD.

In the case above, the people simply sold the spoils very cheap. In the time of Moses, the children of Israel were still in the wilderness. They were still being fed with manna every day. Nobody was working or planting anything. This is why they had to divide the spoil into two parts, one part for the soldiers and the other part for the congregation.
Num 31:27 And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation:

This is not the same conditions as when they have inherited Canaan, and every tribe is working, sowing and reaping except the Levites. There is no such 50-50 division in Jerusalem or Canaan. This is why the percentage given for a heave offering of the LORD is so little. Notice that they still gave something. Also, please note that the tithe is a sort/kind of heave offering too. Heave is simply to put up or lift up. This is symbolically done in appreciation to God. The offering is heaved/lifted up to God in acknowledgement.

Num 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as a heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.

It is this same understanding that Abraham had, that God the possessor of heaven and earth had given him the victory.
Gen 14:19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

One main purpose of tithing is as a show of appreciation and acknowledgement to God. It was also multipurposed for the Levites to be taken care of, as they were not working except in the temple(abi na tabernacle). Such a purpose would have being lost in Numbers 31 as nobody was working yet, they were all receiving manna. There was yet to need to give the tenth to the Levites. The tithe was their salary, a compensation for their not being allowed to work full time outside like other tribes. It was given to take care of them and to help them serve without distraction. Some times if the people were not faithful in their giving, the levites became discouraged and withdrew to go do some work.
Num 18:21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Neh 13:10 And I perceived that the portions of the Levites had not been given them: for the Levites and the singers, that did the work, were fled every one to his field.
Neh 13:11 Then contended I with the rulers, and said, Why is the house of God forsaken? And I gathered them together, and set them in their place.
Neh 13:12 Then brought all Judah the tithe of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries.

Now, Abraham's tithes have being shown to be the spoils gotten from the kingS that defeated the rebellious kings. Note that Sodom and co were actually the rebellious ones.
Gen 14:4 Twelve years they served Chedorlaomer, and in the thirteenth year they rebelled.

Also, Abraham did not touch even a shoelace from Sodom's property, not to mention 10%. It is not okay to tithe out of someone else's property. Tithing is a personal decision, and Abraham took that decision. He did not decide for the men who went with him. He said they could have their own portion. He tithed of the spoils of the four strong kings who defeated five other kings(including Sodom) and more.
Gen 14:23 That I will not take from a thread even to to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:
Gen 14:24 Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.

My friend Mark said "There is evidence from recorded history that the Babylonians gave tithes of war spoils." What i do not understand is how it is agreed that tithes was common practice in Abraham's days, but Abraham's MUST have being a rarity, a one-off. i know that the Bible is not Abraham's diary, it is the Word of God! And the Word of God reveals to us the nature of God and what pleases Him. BTW, before i proceed, Numbers 31 showed that there was nothing out of order/place in presenting spoils to God. the soldiers came and presented it. They seemed to have the same spirit that was in father Abraham.

Num 31:48 And the officers which were over thousands of the host, the captains of thousands, and captains of hundreds, came near unto Moses:
Num 31:49 And they said unto Moses, Thy servants have taken the sum of the men of war which are under our charge, and there lacketh not one man of us.
Num 31:50 We have therefore brought an oblation for the LORD, what every man hath gotten, of jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement for our souls before the LORD.
Num 31:51 And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of them, even all wrought jewels.
Num 31:52 And all the gold of the offering that they offered up to the LORD, of the captains of thousands, and of the captains of hundreds, was sixteen thousand seven hundred and fifty shekels.
Num 31:53 (For the men of war had taken spoil, every man for himself. )
Num 31:54 And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of the captains of thousands and of hundreds, and brought it into the tabernacle of the congregation, for a memorial for the children of Israel before the LORD.

We definitely believe that God does not change. We however would never mistake reliability for rigidity.
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

The basic about the tithe is that the tithe is a tenth. Its purpose is clearly revealed as well. We do not have to forsake and forget the purpose, and be chasing another thing. Some people in Jesus'time forsook and forgot God's purpose for the Sabbath which is rest and restraint from coveteousness. They went and started making rules of don't heal on the sabbath, don't move more than a set kilometres on the sabbath, don't pluck pawpaw on the sabbath. We stand in danger of losing the purpose of tithing when we try to make it a burden on ourselves. When we say tithing of income or increase, what is meant is the regular increase gotten from labour, from sowing and reaping. It is not a burden to be created by circumstance. Like if a rich friend gives me keys to a house, then i'm thinking of debt of the amount of the house to tithe. If the house cost 2million, i start looking for 200 thousand. That's not the tithe. tithe is not bondage, it is a thing that was/is done in joy and appreciation to God. There is a tithe in Deuteronmy describing this, where the tither buys anything and celebrates with family and friends. let's not turn God's word into an uneasy yoke, we have the Spirit of God. The important thing is that the tithe is the tithe, whether it is from cloth, or spoils, or agric produce, or currency. We can give tithes of ALL, as much as we have the grace. Jacob vowed to give tithe of ALL, the pharisee claimed to have given tithe of ALL that he possessed.
We have different types of humans, we have male and female, young and old, black and white, etc. These are all types and classifications of humans, but the main thing is that they are all humans. One human is not more human than the other. We do not say this is the acceptable human, the other one is invalid human. They are all basically humans irrespective of their differences. The same illustration can be made for animals, fishes, birds, anything.
We as believers know about Adam, the first one. We also know the last Adam. Before God, they are both a type of Adam. God classes them together BASICALLY as Adam. They have their differences clear as night and day, but in the end they are both Adam. One is not more Adam than the other. Jesus does not need to be in Eden before He is the last Adam. He does not need an Eve, He was a good Adam without one. He was born as a baby. He died in His thirties. So many differences, but He is still a type of Adam. Again, i say, let us not mistake God's dependability for dogmatism. God does not change in the sense that He is reliable and faithful and true.


END

Thank you Image for the rebuttal.

The response to it should come in by 5am tommorrow. But I will bend the rules a bit; we all seem to know how the game goes in this discuss now, so rather than coming here and suggesting what time you are to post, I will give you the freedom to tell us when it will be OK for you to post. Just that I encourage it does not exceed the 12 hour limit we agreed on. If it does, do let us know.

Thank you gentlemen.

RESPONSE TO REBUTTAL M3



Our opponents do not realize it, but in pointing out the many wars throughout Old Testament during the dispensation of the Law, they have actually helped to prove our stance which is that spoils of war were NEVER regarded tithable items under Mosaic law.


Not once in any of those wars are the war spoils used as tithe. David, as shown in the verses quoted by our brother, shared of the spoils of war with different people of different cities but nothing of that to the Levites as tithe or whatever.


Also we need to reiterate here for emphasis that Abraham's tithe WAS a one-off affair as our fellow discussants will agree the patriarch was not a professional soldier or a soldier of fortune who went looking for wars to enrich himself with spoils. He went to war just ONCE to rescue Lot and friends and gave tithes of spoils and this makes it a rarity indeed for him. While it is on record and quite provable history that ancient tribes of the middle east gave tithes of spoils of war to the sovereign of the area, Abraham's instance of tithing was just that: one instance.

Numbers 31:21 KJV
And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord commanded Moses;

The bolded portion in the verse above suggests God made it an ordinance of the law for Moses to give to the children of Israel. However, we see David fashioning his own statute for war spoils after his victory over Amalekites and which he took into his reign as king (1Sam 30:25)[/color]. Maybe this was him modifying God's ordinance, we cannot say and will not speculate.


However, the lesson from the account in Numbers 31 of the administration of spoils gotten from the Midianites is that God had what he defined as tithe under the law and spoils of war was not among them. As can be seen in the account of the victory of Judah over Ammon, Moab, Mount Seir [color=#550000](2Chr 20:25-28), after the children of Israel had finished stripping the enemies of spoils which they claimed for themselves, they didn't carry tithes of them to the temple in Jerusalem. All they did was take musical instruments to go sing to praise God at the temple showing that they knew and realised that spoils of war COULD NEVER be given as tithes under Mosaic law.


While there is evidence that people kept spoils of wars during the dispensation of the Law, there is one thing we must take into consideration when comparing it with the spoils from the war against the wicked kings in the account in Genesis 14. That being the fact that Abram did not recognize those spoils as belonging to him. He told Bera, "I have lift up mine hand unto the Lord that I will not take unto myself from a thread to a shoelatchet; or of any thing that is thine.”


Is the same said of the wars of David or Solomon, or any other prophet or king under the Law?


In the case of Abram, “To the victor belongs the spoils” is not a valid claim. Those spoils did not belong to Abram and he had no right to claim them. He would have to betray a trust and act wickedly like sons of Belial to claim the properties of folks who called him to come rescue them from soldiers of fortune. He also did not want to give anyone occasion to say they had made Abram rich through their goods so he even rejected their gesture of appreciation that would have seen him profit from it.


Abram had recovered the goods and took them back to who they belonged to, just as Genesis 14 states. To compare the actions of other winners of wars under the Law with Abram’s battle is like comparing straw to silver.


Abram’s midnight raid was not to increase his own household riches. It was to rescue Lot his nephew, not to increase his wealth. The spoils recovered were not Abram’s. The Bible tells us that he did not want them. He had no illusions as to the sole purpose of his adventure; rescue, not riches.


We cannot justify this modern day monetary tithe requirement doctrine using Abram’s rescue and recovery mission. There's no evidence that God made it a law for Abraham, why does the modern church attempt to make it an obligation for Christians?

END

Thank you Mark for the prompt response.

We await Image123 and co's response to response and Presentation of R4.

I can see we are making steady progress. Thank you gentlemen.

Very sorry for our late submissions in the recent times. Response to response coming in in about 5 minutes. Thanks for the understanding.

RESPONSE TO RESPONSE TO REBUTTAL M3


In actuality, our reference to many wars under the law showed that Numbers 31 was not a law, and was not the model followed by the children of Israel. Spoils were not shared between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation. In the 2Kings passage, we saw that it was even sold, though very cheap. In some of Joshua's wars, nothing from the spoils went to the people. Not even the soldiers, Achan tried it and got punished. Numbers 31 was not what God required of war spoils under the Mosaic/Levitic Law. It was just an instance. And like we explained, an instance CAN BE emulated, but it is not a law or a requirement. We can learn from examples and experiences of others. We showed how Elisha did the same thing that Elijah did to part the River. It does not mean that everybody must follow what God told Moses to do to part the Red Sea. Even Joshua did not follow that in parting the River jordan. Again, let us get that clearly, Numbers 31 was not a law, and was not the model followed by the children of Israel.

There is however an ordinance in the passage that the children of Israel had to follow else they would be unclean.
Num 31:21 And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses;
Num 31:22 Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead,
Num 31:23 Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water.
Num 31:24 And ye shall wash your clothes on the seventh day, and ye shall be clean, and afterward ye shall come into the camp.

This passage is also corroborated in other parts of the pentateuch, especially dealing with physical contact with dead people.
Let us note also that the spoils of war came to the temple/tabernacle/house of God. It was not absurd to give spoils of war to the priest. We should not harp about giving agric produce in a sense that suggests that giving spoils of war is an abomination. Abraham gave spoils of war. The Israelites were also instructed in the Numbers 31 passage instance to give spoils of war. It was accepted by God as an heave offering, just like the tithe is an heave offering.
Num 31:28 And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beefs, and of the asses, and of the sheep:
Num 31:29 Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for a heave offering of the LORD.
Num 31:41 And Moses gave the tribute, which was the LORD's heave offering, unto Eleazar the priest, as the LORD commanded Moses.


After that, the soldiers came also and gave of spoils of war to the priest Eleazar. It was not an uncommon thing to do or a sacrilegious thing to do. Nobody was told that he cannot give out of spoils of war, or to go and bring only agricultural produce. This is even under the law oh.
Num 31:50 We have therefore brought an oblation for the LORD, what every man hath gotten, of jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement for our souls before the LORD.
Num 31:51 And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of them, even all wrought jewels.
Num 31:54 And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of the captains of thousands and of hundreds, and brought it into the tabernacle of the congregation, for a memorial for the children of Israel before the LORD.

Mark insists that Abraham's tithe was a one-off because it is only one event that is recorded in the bible of Abraham giving tithes. That is just an assumption and never a fact. That line of reasoning asserts that anything not recorded in the Bible NEVER happened. Imagine anyone asserting that either David or Jacob were not circumcised because it is not recorded in the Bible! Or that David never gave tithe because it is not recorded in the Bible. Or that some Bible character never died, or had children, or wife, or offered burnt offerings, because it is not recorded in the Bible or it is recorded only once. Yet, my friends are quick to tell us that tithing was common practice in the time of Abraham. How can we say that tithing is something everybody did to their gods around Abraham, BUT Abraham MUST HAVE done it just once?
Mark even quoted some evidence (can be found on wikipedia-tithe) about The Assyrian Dictionary of the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago, Vol. 4 "E. The same paragraph shows that tithing was done from the common people in the town, accountant, gardiner, elders, the tithe of the king on barley of the town etc. These was allegedly common in Mesopotamia. It was not just something that soldiers did. Again, the Bible is not Abraham's personal diary, showing all his daily activities. The man lived for about 175years! You have to be omniscient to assert statements like what he MUST have done ONCE.

Now, of course Abraham had a PERSONAL objective when he went in pursuit of the army. His motivation for going into the battle was Lot.
Gen 14:13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.
Gen 14:14 And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.

Abraham had trained servants, trained for battle. This is almost compulsory in his time. The whole earth was a jungle of the fittest, and all people and kingdoms did was to conquer lands and lands. You had to stay fit or be ready to be under some kingdom. It was still common in the last century where european countries took hold of many countries in Africa and the Americas, until Independence. Check history and check the Bible, its evident there what sort of life they lived. The spoils of war did not belong to one Bera of Sodom. The fact remains that there were about 9 kingdoms involved in the war, 9 kingdoms and more!

Gen 14:1 And it came to pass in the days of Amraphel king of Shinar, Arioch king of Ellasar, Chedorlaomer king of Elam, and Tidal king of nations;
Gen 14:2 That these made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, and Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela, which is Zoar.

Four kings in verse one fought with five kings in verse two. Of course, we all know that all these kings had their armies and kingdoms. We are not just talking about nine people involved in wrestling.
1. Amraphel king of Shinar
2. Arioch king of Ellasar
3. Chedorlaomer king of Elam
4. Tidal king of nations.

The above 4 were the ruling kings i.e the ones dominating the region. Imagine Tidal king of nations, NATIONS. However, verses suggest that Chedorlaomer was the strongest of the four. Below are the five kings, who are local boys and losers.
5. Bera king of Sodom
6. Birsha king of Gomorrah
7. Shinab king of Admah
8. Shemeber king of Zeboiim
9. The king of Bela, which is Zoar

These five kings were under the reign and dominion of Cherdorlaomer before they rebelled or tried to rebel.
Gen 14:4 Twelve years they served Chedorlaomer, and in the thirteenth year they rebelled.

Cherdo called the shots for 12 years! He was the don of the whole place. Bera was the rebel king under him. Chedo was greater and stronger. The next year after these 5kings rebelled, Chedo and his friends went on rampage to regain dominion of the whole place. Look at the grasses that suffered as it were before they came to deal with Bera and his allies.
Gen 14:5 And in the fourteenth year came Chedorlaomer, and the kings that were with him, and smote the Rephaims in Ashteroth Karnaim, and the Zuzims in Ham, and the Emims in Shaveh Kiriathaim,
Gen 14:6 And the Horites in their mount Seir, unto El-paran, which is by the wilderness.
Gen 14:7 And they returned, and came to En-mishpat, which is Kadesh, and smote all the country of the Amalekites, and also the Amorites, that dwelt in Hazezon-tamar.

This was massive, its not just about one loser Bera. Bera was just one of many kings and kingdoms that Cherdolaomer and his three friends' armies defeated. So, when Abraham defeats Chedo, we are not talking about just Bera's property but the spoils of about 9 kingdoms and more, now in the hands of Abraham. The winner took it all, BUT Abraham had vowed not to touch Sodom's goods. Sodom was where Lot was. Abraham did not touch Sodom or Lot's goods. He recovered them and let things be. He however did not decide for others that helped him. What his servants had eaten or taken and what his confederates had taken was their own prerogative.

Gen 14:23 That I will not take from a thread even to to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:
Gen 14:24 Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.

But for the spoils and properties gotten from the other 8 kingdoms, Abraham had no such vow. It is of these that he gave a tenth. Nobody called him to come rescue them from soldiers of fortune. These 4 kings were in charge of the region for over a decade. The Bible states that it is the five kings that REBELLED. This is not stealing in the market or a group of thieves. We are talking about armies of kingdoms. Soldiers that do not travel light. No army travels light. Army is not a group of armed robbers for one night operation. Armies can be in a place for months, that's why they have a lot of property with them. It is of these that Abraham took spoils of war. The 8 kings were not penniless or property-less. It will be a distorted picture to say that the only person or kingdom who had property was Sodom. Abraham did not want to take what was Sodom's because of a personal vow, which reasons are easily understandable, knowing that Sodom are his brother Lot's landlords. The goods of the other 8 or more kingdoms are not Sodom's and Abraham had no such vows. Of their spoils, he gave tithe to God. We are not saying it is a law, it has not being so said on this thread. What we have clearly stated is that it is an example. It shows that tithes was not a discovery of Moses, neither does he hold the patent. It shows that both God(the Author of Genesis) and Moses(the writer of Genesis) considered what Abraham gave as tithe. They saw it as tithe. They never had some special God's tithes defined anywhere. What Abraham gave qualified as a tithe, what Jacob gave or vowed qualified as a tithe, what Moses described qualified as a tithe, what we give qualifies as a tithe. Let God remain the Judge of what He accepts of His children. No man has exclusive rights to tell God's children that what they give to God is unacceptable.

END

Presenting R4 comes in later in the day. Thanks for the patience.

Presenting R4 Our tithing remains practiced because there is no condemnation from God for doing it. (Romans 8:1)

What is tithe? Tithe is one tenth of somebody's income or produce. It is as simple and as basic as that. That is very clear and understandable. Every tithe of whatever form conforms and answers to this simple and basic meaning of the tithe. It is the attempts to make mountains out of molehills that cause people to add to this definition, usually for sinister purposes. The purposes of tithing is defeated when it is unnecessarily turned into a burden. Human beings love to give people burden to carry. Normally, the tithe is a small part, a tenth, or 10% of a whole. After the small one part, you are left with 9 parts with which you do other things. No one is expected to give tithe as a burden. Even in the old testament, and under the law, that was not done. The tithe was given with joy and appreciation. And today, the fruit of the spirit is joy. When we say we tithe of increase, it is explained that such increase IS income from labour. What you sowed and reaped, what you work for and are paid for. That is as basic and as simple as it is. It is not expected that you are to give tithes of school fees as a student, or someone lends you money to foot a bill and you give tithe. It's not a sin BTW, that's personal decision and sacrifice, or could be lack of clear understanding of the tithe. Nevertheless, no one can outgive God knowingly or mistakenly. When you give, Jesus said it will be given unto you, so no needs to worry. It is not expected that you tithe of a gift especially if it is unaffordable, its a personal choice. You might not even be able to afford the gift. For instance, your company gifts you with a car, or your father in law gifts you with a house or whatever. These are not what we are referring to as income. By income, we mean payment for work, goods, or services, or as profit on capital. Its not the reasoning of God increased me with two children, how do i tithe this increase. Those are carnal thoughts, and the spirit behind the tithe is lost on such reasonings.
We do not tithe under the law as we are not under it. We tithe without condemnation.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

We do not honour our parents under the law as we are not under it. We tithe because there is NO CONDEMNATION from God for tithing. It is the safest thing to do. We are without offence to anyone. When you tithe, you cannot be labelled a robber whether mistakenly or truthfully. You are safe as a tither whatever dispensation, whatever law, whatever criteria may be brought out. This is one reason why we tithe, it is the safest position, the wisest position. You cannot be wrong on the tithe. In a certain dispensation and covenant, we ALL agree that God could tell some folks that they were robbers because they did not tithe. If i had being in that dispensation, i would not be called a robber for not tithing. Same cannot be said for all of us.
The law was our school master. Not their school master alone, but OUR school master.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Now, we are no longer under the law. And remember, tithing is not limited to the law. It is not the discovery of Moses, neither does he hold any patent to it. But under the law as our schoolmaster, our child tutor, what happened is like what happens to children before they become matured. There are many rules for children and many punishments too.There is that MUST surrounding the child. The child must wake at a certain time, must be in bed at a certain time, must finish the food in the plate, must do the dishes, must complete those assignments, most wear the socks, and the socks must be that colour, must come in from wherever he went to play at a certain time, etc. As the child grows and matures to a young adult, he is no longer under the school master. However, a responsible child will realise how important those rules were, and how they formed him/her to be successful today. Today, nobody might flog or punish him for staying up late, or coming in by 1am, or not going to classes or doing his assignments. But he knows that it is best for him. He is not under condemnation, no teacher or lecturer will chastise him. This is about the difference between being under the law and under grace. We should not turn the grace of our God into lasciviousness, or fail of the grace of God. Again, i am CERTAIN God will not condemn or punish anyone for tithing in any dispensation, covenant or time. This is one reason why tithing should be encouraged and practiced.


END

double post

Thank you Image123 for your presentations.

Over to Mark/Candour for the appropriate response.

REBUTTAL TO R4



If there is no condemnation for paying tithes, the logical question that should follow is 'is there any condemnation for NOT paying tithes?

We wouldn't be discussing this topic today but for the following judgments and condemnation passed on non tithers by pastors who collect tithes and some church members who pay tithe.

1.If you don't tithe, you're a robber and will go to hell because its a sin not to pay tithe.

2.If you don't pay tithes, you will be visited by devourers who will attack your finances, health, career, marriage, growth etc.

3.You cannot prosper as a Christian if you don't pay tithe.


We can end this discussion if our fellow discussants can boldly and confidently say the above statements are lies that negate the gospel of the grace of God that saves you and I today and why shouldn't they be able to say it? After all, they've said we are no longer under the law and we agree with them. They've said there is no compulsion, and we agree with them. They said tithing cannot justify anybody before God, and we agree with them, so why should they not condemn those three lies above?

Infact our brother said tithe is not Moses' patent which means they don't tithe because of Moses but follow Abraham's example. Which is good because they've also said examples can be followed but they are not laws for the general populace for all time and we agree with them on this also. So why can't they condemn those three falsehoods above? Well we can, and we will with the help of the word of God.

Galatians 3:24-25 KJV
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The law is no longer our school master. It has concluded its work as it has chased us to Christ to whom we've come to drop our yoke and bondage in exchange for liberty to be led by the spirit. The law insists on the Sabbath, grace allows me choose my day of rest or worship. The law says a minister in the tabernacle CANNOT have an inheritance, Grace says we all are ministers of the covenant and are not yoked to any earthly temple but free indeed. The law says a tenth must be given to the Levites(who have no inheritance), Grace says as I purpose in my heart, so I give. Grace allows me and you this freedom because of the scripture below

Romans 10:4 KJV
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

My righteousness is of Christ. I have none of my own.

Romans 8:1 KJV
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There's no condemnation to us who are in Christ so we refuse a mere mortal dictate how we give to our needy brethren and our God. No man or pastor is holy enough to stand in the place of the holy spirit to decree how we give. No practice, ritual or ordinance can condemn us. We are led by the Spirit in everything we do including giving and if the holy spirit is leading us indeed, let's stop suggesting 10% to him. That is trying to force the flesh on the spirit. The early Christians in Acts of the Apostles gave up everything to be shared among the needy that were in the church and I dare say it went a longer way than any 10% could have. The difference is that they gave willingly.

God gave up the best of heaven already for us according to this verse

Romans 8:32 KJV
He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

So why do we need to pay him a tenth before he blesses us? Brethren, the cross made a lot of difference.


If there's no condemnation for not observing Sabbath, then there's none for not tithing. If there's no condemnation for not observing feast of weeks, there's none for not tithing. If there's no condemnation for not burning an offering like Abraham's example, then there's ABSOLUTELY none for not tithing.


Tithing today is indeed a burden. Many pastors today devour widows houses by requiring the tithe of them. Mark's widowed mother is a perfect example of one whose house is devoured by the false doctrine of the monetary tithe. Eighty-seven years old, unable to attend services any more, Yet her pastor calls her the first of every month to remind her he is dropping by her house to collect her tithes. This makes her tithe more important than her presence at fellowship because obviously tithe paying 'is the safest thing to do' in his Christianity. A practice that God’s Word clearly is against.

Matthew 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Yes, the tithe is indeed a burden that greedy people have capitalized on to fleece and tie helpless people to a yoke.


What exactly does the injunction, “It is the safest thing to do” mean? It clearly means our fellow discussants believe those who don't tithe are not safe from any of the condemnations listed above. It reveals that the reader is to tithe to be safe, or to expect calamity from God for not tithing. This is simply fear mongering and Christians will do well to internalize the scriptures below

Romans 8:15 KJV
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

2 Timothy 1:7 KJV
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Christians, don't let fear rule you for there is no condemnation to those who walk according to the Spirit. However tithing because “it is the safest thing to do” is not walking according to the Spirit but living in bondage of not knowing whether you're accepted by God or not. It is acting according to the flesh and shows a life devoid of the spirit of God. God took away the condemnation when we trusted Christ and it would be a shame to put ourselves again under that yoke. The bible said we are already blessed with all spiritual blessings

Ephesians 1:3 KJV
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Christians need to walk in this consciousness. We are blessed already and its wrong to say you must tithe to be blessed as a Christian.

Our fellow discussants state again that we are not under the Law, yet the Law is the only place one can place oneself under if one chooses to tithe to be “safe.” The ordinances were taken away. That includes the ordinance of tithing. There is not one iota of Scripture in the Word of God that says we are to tithe today…not one, therefore we can't agree with the man-made notion that tithing “is the safest thing to do.” Christians are enjoined to give generously and freely to our needy brethren and other worthy causes that please God, Its in our interest to stick with this admonition.


If there is no command to tithe, why would tithing be “the safest thing to do”? If some choose to follow Abraham's example of tithing, when did it become a law for all Christians?



END

Edited.

Hello house, sorry for my continual silence. I am proposing to slightly alter my R6-R10. Image and i have agreed on this. The former one is:
MY SUBMISSIONS
R6. Tithe means a tenth. Heb7:1, Gen28:22
R7. Abraham laid the precept of tithing and taught (from inference) his children about it, pre-law
R8. Christians today are children of Abraham and should do the works of Abraham John8:39,Rom4:11,13, Gal3:4
R9. Abraham and Jacob gave/offered God their tithe. Christians should give God their tithe (not pastor, reverend e.t.c). Gen34:7,14:19, Mal3:10
R10. Abraham and Jacob gave tithe of THEIR ALL . A Christian should give tithe of his all. Gen28:22, Heb7:1, Mal3:10.
We wish to change it to this
New Points
R6: Our tithing is because Jesus never condemned it and suggested that it ought to be done. (Luke 11:42)

R7: Our tithing is because Christians today are children of Abraham, and we find tithing a responsible thing to do. (John8:39,Galatians 3:7)

R8: Our tithing is done as the Bible shows that Jacob learnt about tithes from Abraham, showing clearly that tithing was practised long time before the law. (Hebrews 11:9)

R9: Tithing is scriptural as Jacob vowed to give it TO God, emphasizing and discerning the Lord's body (Genesis 28:22)

R10: Our tithing is based on scriptures that Jacob gave tithe of his all, a precursor and foretaste to bring all the tithe (Malachi 3:10)
God bless you all.

Response to rebutting R4

Our purpose for engaging in this discussion is to explain the reasons why the tithe is valid, and to clear common misconceptions and thoughts on the biblical tithe. Our actions and motives are not borne out of a reaction to external forces or to abuses of the tithe practice. Our actions are rooted in the Word of God and the examples and testimonies of godly people to the better part of our knowledge and the leading of the Spirit of God. We are not unaware of wrong teaching and practice in christianity but that is not what determines what we do primarily. There is false teaching and practice concerning faith, concerning miracles, concerning prayer, to be truthful concerning everything.

When we say that there is no condemnation for giving the tithe, this is to allay any fears raised by some that giving the tithe puts one at risk of losing salvation. There is this false doctrine that if a christian gives the tithe, such a person has fallen from grace. We've also heard people say that they can NEVER give tithes because of some fear about their salvation. Offering the tithe places one in a position where the tither cannot be condemned by God or called a robber IN ANY DISPENSATION.
There is no condemnation for those which are in Christ Jesus. Jesus is the Judge and no christian is expected to condemn anyone.(Matthew 7:1). However, christians can correct one another in love. A pastor is expected and ordained as a shepherd to correct his congregation, those that God has made him an overseer of. He feeds them with the Word of God and helps them to honour God and His Word. A pastor or christian leader can teach his congregation what the Bible teaches, one of which is the tithe. He however does not have the duty of condemning anyone.

It is wrong for a christian not to tithe. It is wrong to be late for service. It is wrong not to be prayerful. But i sincerely cannot say if one would be condemned for not doing any of these. It is not my job, and i was told to judge nothing before the time. God is the Judge.
1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Under the school tutor, a child will get punished for coming late to school or skipping class, like i previously explained. A child will get spanked for staying out late, not doing the dishes, not observing siesta etc. But when the child becomes a young adult, nobody spanks him in a sense. There is no condemnation as was done under the school master. However, there may be repercussions when a young adult does not attend classes, or do his assignments. When he goes late to classes, or does not rest well, or usually comes in late in the night. There may be no school teacher to spank him as he is no longer under such, he is now a big person. This does not justify his deeds. He MAY not perform as well as he should/can, he may risk being mugged or assaulted for coming in late even when there are plausible reasons. This is simply the position of those of us not under the law/school tutor. The end/goal/purpose of the school master is to bring us to Christ. It is not to lawlessness.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There is no condemnation for us who walk after the Spirit, not fleshly. And the goal is that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us. We should not miss the reasons for our redemption. We have ALWAYS said that we are no longer under the law. It seems its usually the antitihers that tell us that we must tithe according to the law, whatever that means. We have kept reminding us all that we are not under the law and that tithing precedes and transcends the period of the law/old covenant. This is nothing new. Image123 for one has always maintained that there is no compulsion in the new covenant as it were. Prayer is not by compulsion, giving/tithing is not by compulsion, reading the Bible is not by compulsion etc. One cannot exactly argue that a person is condemned because he/she did has not been having regular devotion, or any other christian practice. But we are very clear about what is the right thing to do. And tithing remains one of the right things for a believer to do, like prayer, fasting, fellowship etc. Loving people cannot justify anybody, honouring our parents or elders cannot justify anybody. We are justified by faith.

Tithe is not Moses' patent. This means that it is not confined to just Moses. There are things we can learn from Moses. We are not trying to pit Moses against Abraham or Jacob. Our tithing is not just based on a person, it is based on God. We honour and regard ALL Scripture as inspired by God. Now, when we said examples can be followed but they are not laws for the general populace for all time, We were very specific about what was meant and that was about Numbers 31. Mark and candour had told us that Numbers 31 was a law for Israel, and we had explained and shown clearly that it(the Numbers 31 passage about spoils of war) was not a law but an instance. The tithe was something the whole populace was to do, and it was for all time. This is clearly seen under the law. Under the law, tithing was compulsory, but the instance of how spoils were shared in Numbers 31 was not compulsory. In our own dispensation, almost nothing is compulsory, including prayer or tithing.
i think we should make extra effort to clearly understand what we are both(the two parties) saying, so as to clear up misconceptions and misunderstandings like we have done concerning Abraham's spoils, Jacob's vow, and the use of words like 'pay' or 'give'.

BTW, the Levites had an inheritance. God was their inheritance and the tithes was also their inheritance. They were not being punished not to be able to have an inheritance. They were not given land in the format that God gave the other tribes, because God wanted them concentrating and consecrating on His work. The tithe was their right, they were not begging for it. They had cities to dwell in, and they had property. Prophet Jeremiah for instance was a levite and he had land that he bought. Same for another levite in the new testament.

Jer 32:8 So Hanameel mine uncle's son came to me in the court of the prison according to the word of the LORD, and said unto me, Buy my field, I pray thee, that is in Anathoth, which is in the country of Benjamin: for the right of inheritance is thine, and the redemption is thine; buy it for thyself. Then I knew that this was the word of the LORD.

Act 4:36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
Act 4:37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

These people understood clearly the reasons why they did not have an inheritance LIKE the other tribes. It is not that they were penniless or shelterless. Christ brought us grace however, and we are not under the law. But we need to note that Christ Himself never threw away the Word of God. The Bible makes us to understand that it was not just grace that was with Him, it was grace and truth. We need the grace and the truth, not just a truthless grace.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Psa 119:151 Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.

Here is what Jesus thought of the Word of God, and we ought to have the mind of Christ.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Now, it is IMPORTANT to note that there is a difference between what we call the commandments of men, and the commandments of God. There is the traditions of men, and THERE is the traditions of God. It is often easy to throw away the baby with the bath water in this case.
There is NOTHING wrong with men's tradition, as far as it does not contradict with God's Word, and as much as it does not take the place of God's Word or Spirit. A family may have traditions, what they do every year, when they pray or how/pattern they pray, or what they eat during a festive period. A fellowship, a school, a workplace, a town may have traditions of things. It is when these traditions take God's place, or are being posed as God's that is not normal. i said God also has traditions and commandments. He has His own ways and patterns of doing things.
2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Tithing is not man's tradition, it is rooted in the Word of God. In fact, God once called some fellows robbers for not doing it. It is not man's suggestion. All scriptures were breathed on by God's Holy Spirit. And they are not for our condemnation. There is no condemnation for those of us who are in Christ. It has being explained what was against us. It is the Old Agreement that was against us. It is not love your neighbour as yourself(Leviticus 19) that is against us. It is not Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy. OR Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another. (all in Lev 19). These are not what is against us. Don't uncover the unclothedness of your mother, or do not seek after familiar spirits is not what is against us. It is the agreement, that IF we can obey ALL God's Word, THEN we will be justified. It is this law, this agreement that is against us.

If anyone is giving above 10% to the church of God, nobody has a right to disturb him about 10%. He has given over and above. i'm not sure there is any tither or tithe supporting pastor that disagrees with that. Obedience to God's Word brings blessings till tomorrow. Prayer brings blessing, hardwork brings blessing, giving tithes brings blessing, righteousness brings blessing, perseverance brings blessing, endurance brings blessing, faith brings blessing and on and on. When we give, God blesses us. This is a scriptural fact.
Tithe is 10% of a 100%. That is NOT a burden. People can abuse good things, no doubt. False ministers can devour ignorant and helpless people with prayers, visions, deliverance, prophecies, fastings, giving etc. Some do not ask for the tithe, they'll just ask for an amount. They can say 5000 or 20000 or any amount. They can ask for property. We cannot hang the abuse of God's Word on the tithe. As for old people, i have come to discover that the older people get, the more they tend to give. They are not the usual young people saving to buy this and that, or to send people to school. Most of them gladly give to their churches or other causes. It's not uncommon for folks to send money to their old parents, and they just take the little they need to feed and give out the rest. Some may not be to a church but to some fellow that comes to them. This is very common with the old people that me i know. Absolutely nothing wrong with old people giving the tithe. You are not giving the tithe to buy salvation or forgiveness of sins. That would be a wrong motive or reason.

“It is the safest thing to do” in the sense that you are safe from condemnation in every dispensation, and part of God's Word. Bring in any scripture, from whatever testament, none can stand against you in that matter, no matter the excuse. Again, tithing is not done to be accepted by God. i have stated that over and over on this thread, and i hope that this simple statement sinks in. We are not being ruled by fear but by reverence. We are not afraid of sin or of the law. We however honour and reverence God and His Word. Even Jesus was said to fear God in that sense. He had the Spirit of God without measure.
Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
(BBE) Who in the days of his flesh, having sent up prayers and requests with strong crying and weeping to him who was able to give him salvation from death, had his prayer answered because of his fear of God.

We fear God because He is Judge, nothing wrong with godly fear. We do not fear satan or sin however.
2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear

The Bible says concerning judgement that books were opened. It's like some would tell an unbeliever that there is nothing lost by believing in God. It is the safest thing to do. If there is no God as it were, the believer is safe. If there is God, the believer is safe. Same cannot be said for the unbeliever. If on judgement day for instance, tithe is in any of the books, we are safe and are rewarded for it. If there is no tithe in any of the books, we are still safe. God will not frown at anyone for giving the tithe. We will all be rewarded according to our works.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

If our fellow discussants have the list of books that God will open, please kindly produce it so that we can all be fully assured what God will use to reward us. If not, there is no need to discourage any tither from good works. For God is not unrighteous to forget their labour of love.


END

Rhymeyjohn: Hello house, sorry for my continual silence. I am proposing to slightly alter my R6-R10. Image and i have agreed on this. The former one is:
MY SUBMISSIONS
R6. Tithe means a tenth. Heb7:1, Gen28:22
R7. Abraham laid the precept of tithing and taught (from inference) his children about it, pre-law
R8. Christians today are children of Abraham and should do the works of Abraham John8:39,Rom4:11,13, Gal3:4
R9. Abraham and Jacob gave/offered God their tithe. Christians should give God their tithe (not pastor, reverend e.t.c). Gen34:7,14:19, Mal3:10
R10. Abraham and Jacob gave tithe of THEIR ALL . A Christian should give tithe of his all. Gen28:22, Heb7:1, Mal3:10.
We wish to change it to this
New Points
R6: Our tithing is because Jesus never condemned it and suggested that it ought to be done. (Luke 11:42)

R7: Our tithing is because Christians today are children of Abraham, and we find tithing a responsible thing to do. (John8:39,Galatians 3:7)

R8: Our tithing is done as the Bible shows that Jacob learnt about tithes from Abraham, showing clearly that tithing was practised long time before the law. (Hebrews 11:9)

R9: Tithing is scriptural as Jacob vowed to give it TO God, emphasizing and discerning the Lord's body (Genesis 28:22)

R10: Our tithing is based on scriptures that Jacob gave tithe of his all, a precursor and foretaste to bring all the tithe (Malachi 3:10)
God bless you all.

Mark Miwerds and Candour, I want to know if this is ok with you both.

DrummaBoy:

Mark Miwerds and Candour, I want to know if this is ok with you both.

Blessings my Brother.

I have contacted Candour concerning the proposal. Although the rules said the Presentations list was to be in prior to the beginning of the Presentations, we will both agree to them changing it this one time to the proposed list above.

Hopefully there will not be any other changes.

I have composed a rough draft of the Response to Response R4, and sent it to Candour for his perusal and editing of any changes that need to be taken care of.

Hopefully, we will have the Response posted before bedtime in Nigeria.

RESPONSE TO RESPONSE R4:


The Discussants on the pro-tithing team say, “Our purpose for engaging in this discussion is to explain the reasons why the tithe is valid, and to clear common misconceptions and thoughts on the biblical tithe.” However, It is our contention that the tithe today is not valid but a horribly distorted form of whatever tithe our brothers claim to obey or emulate. We have demonstrated this in previous posts in this discussion, but to save the reader from having to search through earlier posts, we will do a recap.



Ephesians 2:14-15 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;


Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;



That which was written in the Mosaic Law was taken out of the way and nailed to the cross… abolished by none other than the King of Righteousness, the Lord Jesus Christ and any attempt to bring it back is an audacious statement telling God he didn't do enough to save and justify us.


Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.



Those who are led of the Spirit are not of the Law. The Law is dead to them and they are dead to the Law.


Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


The old covenant is outdated and has been replaced with a new one and there's no tithe injunction found ANYWHERE in the new covenant



The pro-tithing Discussants say, “Our actions and motives are not borne out of a reaction to external forces or to abuses of the tithe practice. Our actions
are rooted in the Word of God and the examples and testimonies of godly people to the better part of our knowledge and the leading of the Spirit of God.” but we must ask, Is the monetary tithe being preached and practiced today truly “rooted in the Word of God”? The answer is a resounding NO. It is nothing but the figment of imaginations of mere men. Even at that, Jesus Christ abolished the commandments written in the Law with his death on the cross. This would include the command to tithe. How can one justify tithing in light of the fact that Jesus abolished that ordinance on the cross? Are we more wise than our Lord? According to the Word of God, that which God shutteth, no man openeth.



Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;


The Jerusalem Council had spoken by the leading of the holy Spirit; the Old could not be brought into the New. The Apostles (and the Holy Spirit) would not mix Law and Grace.


Acts 15:23-25 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

The apostles did not even give any command or advice to tithe to the early Christians so how did it become a do or fail rule for Christians today? It’s the duty of every Christian to find out.


The pro-tithe Discussants say, “Offering the tithe places one in a position where the tither cannot be condemned by God or called a robber IN ANY
DISPENSATION. “ Again, there is the not too hidden implication that if one does not pay, one is a robber and thus condemned by God. We ask, where is the Scripture that condemns Christians for not paying tithe today? We are in a new Covenant. What is written is written. We cannot add our own rules after the Covenant has been entered into. So if we are supposed to tithe today, where is the clause written in the New Covenant that we have entered into that tells us we are to tithe?


Our pro-tithe Discussants continue, “There is no condemnation for those which are in Christ Jesus. Jesus is the Judge and no christian is expected to condemn anyone.(Matthew 7:1). However, christians can correct one another in love. A pastor is expected and ordained as a shepherd to correct his congregation,those that God has made him an overseer of. He feeds them with the Word of God and helps them to honour God and His Word. A pastor or christian leader can teach his congregation what the Bible teaches, one of which is the tithe. He however does not have the duty of condemning anyone.”


The tithe that the Bible teaches is not the monetary tithe that is taught by many pastors today. Just as they do not have the right to condemn anyone, they also do not have the right to preach that God expects a monetary tithe from the congregation without producing Scripture that demands that monetary tithe. So, again we ask, where in the New Covenant is the Scripture that tells us we are to tithe our money?



The pro-tithe team makes the following claim, It is wrong for a christian not to tithe. Yet, to this point in the Discussion, our opposing team has provided no Scripture to tell us to tithe our money. If there is no Scripture that tells us to tithe our money, can it rightfully be said that “it is wrong for a Christian
not to tithe”?


While tithing does precede the Law, it did not continue after the Temple was destroyed in Jerusalem in 70 A.D. There is no evidence in the Word of God that tithing continued past 70 A.D because every Jew or Gentile knew that tithes was instituted mainly for the Levitical priesthood and temple destruction brought an abrupt end to their ministry. The apostles knew what the law said and knew they HAD NO RIGHT to collect tithes on behalf of Jesus or Melchizedek. Then again, Hebrews says we were brought into a “NEW” Covenant, not taken back into an ancient one.


The pro-tithing team wrote, “Here is what Jesus thought of the Word of God, and we ought to have the mind of Christ and quoted Matt 5:19 to buttress their point.


However, the pro-tithers team are sending out opposing signals that clash with one another. Earlier, they said that they agree we are not under the Law, yet here they say we are to keep the Law. But are they keeping the Law concerning the tithe? According to all tithing verses under the law, they are not. So, it is really not right to say they are keeping God's commandments because teaching the monetary tithe is outrightly breaking the Law on tithing.


The pro-tithers say, “Tithing is not man's tradition, it is rooted in the Word of God.” Yet, in the Word of God, God gave His tithes to the Levites. Whom does the modern version allocate the tithes to? and what is the tithe?



Leviticus 27:30-33 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.


That’s right… agricultural products. And consistently through the Word of God from Leviticus 27:30 and forward, tithes were agricultural… they were eaten by the Levites, the tither and his family, widows, orphans, and foreigners taking refuge in Israel. But one thing that is clear concerning God’s tithe… it was never spent because It was NEVER money.


God said in the above passage, “all the tithes.” He did not leave out any… He said “ALL”. He told Moses “It is the Lord’s.” So we know that the tithes that God was requiring of the children of Israel were Gods’. He then explained what those tithes were, so there would be no confusion as to what He meant when He said, “All the tithes.” “whether of the seed of the land;” This referred to garden produce. “or of the fruit of the trees;” This referred to that which grew in orchards and on fruit trees. And “whatsoever passeth under the rod.” This referred to the livestock in Israel. God said these tithes were “Holy unto the Lord.” and God gave them to the Levites. Now, people could not take their tithes to God. They took them to the Levites in their Levitical cities scattered throughout Israel BECAUSE GOD SAID SO. There were forty-eight Levitical cities in total that the tithes were taken to.


Numbers 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.


Numbers 18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.


Numbers 18:28 Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD'S heave offering to Aaron the priest.

Since there are no more Levites, who are the new beneficiaries and by what authority did they arrogate that privilege to themselves?


Those who God called “robbers” were the Priests in Malachi’s day. They were robbing God. They were robbing the people of Israel as well. The tithes that God was speaking of in Malachi when He levied the accusation against the Priests was not a tithe of money…, it was a tithe of food. Our pro-tithe advocates consistently return to the Law, all the while claiming they are not under the Law. But worse, they make God’s tithe, which He clearly said was agricultural, to be money.


The pro-tithers say that “tithing brings blessings.” and i ask, what blessings does a tither have that a non tither doesnt have? Tithers fall sick and die, non tithers do the same. Tithers lose jobs, non tithers do too. Tithers experience various calamities as do non tithers. The only people that seem immune from all these mishaps are the new 'tribe' administering the tithes; the pastoral tribe.

Our pro-tithing opponents say, “We cannot hang the abuse of God’s Word on the tithe.” And yet, that is exactly what is being done when one preaches and teaches the monetary tithe requirement doctrine. There is no instruction in the Word of God for a monetary tithe, only for an agricultural one. Is that not abusing God’s Word to teach something contrary to what it teaches?

While many people may not be giving “tithes” to earn their Salvation, plenty are giving it due to coercion and fear-mongering tactics being preached to them since Tithes came into Christianity in AD585 and Monetary tithes in 1873AD

As to the “safest thing to do'' idea, what other practice can we approach with this mindset? Sabbath was even observed by God almighty himself so I guess that makes it a practice we should adopt to be on God's safe side. Then we can go on and pick every other good practice in the old testament like feast of weeks, feast of Pentecost etc. My brethren, if we have to approach God with this ''safest thing to do'' idea, we are no better than pagans and we would do well to stop lying to ourselves as being saved by faith in Christ.
We will be judged according to our works. Truth. But what works is Revelation speaking of? All the works that are not edifying to the body of Christ.
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