PRESENTATION M5:

THE LAW TITHE WAS ALWAYS EATEN (LEV. 27:30-33)


Leviticus 27:30-33 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.

In the above passage, Moses was given instructions by Almighty God to relay to the children of Israel. That instruction was that they were to tithe. What they were to tithe were products of agricultural nature:

a) The children of Israel were to tithe the seed of the land; i.e., garden produce such as corn, wheat, mint, cumin, dill, anise, etc.. Anything grown in the garden was tithable.

b) The children of Israel were to tithe the fruit of the trees; i.e., pomegranates, figs, dates, apples, olives, etc..
c) The farmer was allowed to buy back his tithe of crops if he had need of it. If he chose to buy back the tithe, the Levite would assess the value of the tithe and then sell the tithe back to the farmer at a cost twenty percent above the assessed value of the tithe.
d) From their flocks and herds, the children of Israel were to tithe every tenth animal that passed under the rod; i.e., the herder would count the animals as they passed under his counting rod. Every tenth animal was to be tithed.
e) The livestock tithe could not be bought back. God demanded that tenth animal and gave no provender for the farmer retaining the animal as his own. If the farmer decided a different animal was to be given as tithe than the tenth one, then both the animal offered and the tenth animal were to be given to the Levite.


The tithe remained agricultural from 1410 B.C., when Moses was given the commandments for the children of Israel up until 70 A.D., when the Temple was destroyed in Israel and the Levites no longer had the duties they previously had.

There is not one instance of money being tithed in those 1480 years.
FOOD OR MONEY?

EVERY INSTANCE OF TITHING EXCEPT ABRAM’S IN THE BIBLE WAS OF FOOD (DEUT. 12:17; 14:22-29; 26:12; MAL 3:7-11


Deuteronomy 12:17 Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand:
Deuteronomy 14:22-29 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always. And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee. At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.
Deuteronomy 26:12 When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;

The above passages further reveal the content of the tithes under the Mosaic/Levitic Law. Again, tithes were food, and nothing more. There is not one iota of Scripture that states that God required tithes of anything other than agricultural products.

Tithes, under the Law, were always eaten by someone; whether by the Levite, the tither and his family, or by the less fortunate in Israel.

END

Mark Miwerds and Candour

On page 0, M4 is - Tithes under the Mosaic Law were in no way similar to Abram's tithe (compare Genesis 14:22-23; Leviticus 27:30-33)

However M5 is M5 - Tithes under the Law were always food (Leviticus 27:30-33; Deuteronomy 14:22-29: Malachi 3:7-11

While the above presentation is called: M4: THE LAW TITHE WAS AGRICULTURAL (LEV. 27:30-33)

It seem to me that you have Presented M5 as M4. Is this a mistake or you plan to skip M4 as it may have been dealt with already in your discussions so far. If you do, please rename the Presentation as Presenting M5.

I await your response.

This does not stop Image123 and co from offering a rebuttal; when we are clear on what the name of the topic is, we can re-name the presentations as they are supposed to be.

Thank you gentlemen.

Sorry, we'll be offering our rebuttal late. Please permit us another 12hours. This is due to inevitable circumstances. Apologies to everyone and thanks for following.

DrummaBoy: Mark Miwerds and Candour

On page 0, M4 is - Tithes under the Mosaic Law were in no way similar to Abram's tithe (compare Genesis 14:22-23; Leviticus 27:30-33)

However M5 is M5 - Tithes under the Law were always food (Leviticus 27:30-33; Deuteronomy 14:22-29: Malachi 3:7-11

While the above presentation is called: M4: THE LAW TITHE WAS AGRICULTURAL (LEV. 27:30-33)

It seem to me that you have Presented M5 as M4. Is this a mistake or you plan to skip M4 as it may have been dealt with already in your discussions so far. If you do, please rename the Presentation as Presenting M5.

I await your response.

This does not stop Image123 and co from offering a rebuttal; when we are clear on what the name of the topic is, we can re-name the presentations as they are supposed to be.

Thank you gentlemen.

DrummaBoy,

Due to a slip of my DragonNaturally Speaking, my presentation M4 ended before I intended it to end. And I could do nothing to bring it back up until I got help just now. I had intended on saying more. For this reason, I have edited the Presentation and completed it as it should have been.

I am sorry, but these things do happen from time to time and they are beyond my control.

I will be skipping M4, as you have suggested, and as the two pretty much hash out the same thing. So they are merged as one into M5

^^^ OK. Accepted.

REBUTTAL OF M4/M5

Choi, we apologize for the late submission once again.

Something amazes me with the antitithe position, please enlighten me. The antitithe position states that what christians offer today is not the tithe accurately and does not qualify as the tithe. Contradictorily, there is a vigorous argument against our giving the tithe, our being under the law, and pastors collecting tithe.
If what we are giving is not the tithe, why the stress, why the argument, why the trouble?

There is a lot of ado about what the tithe should/MUST be. Such ado is alien to Scriptures. Searching the Scriptures help us to see that the tithe was equated to an heave offering in the Bible. And we know that heave offerings are not limited to edible things or agricultural produce. Observe the passages below.
Num 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as a heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
Num 18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up a heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.
Num 18:28 Thus ye also shall offer a heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD's heave offering to Aaron the priest.

The tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as a heave offering. The tithe was reckoned as a heave offering. it was equal to a heave offering. We have also seen from Numbers 31 how that the soldiers offered a heave offering of spoils of war. The main point out of this is that, even under the law, there was no stringent and dogmatic positions about what constituted the tithe/heave offering.

i think it would do us some good to look at Leviticus 27 in its full context, seeing it is like the chief passage presented in M4. Leviticus 27 is a passage that discusses vows and their redemption. This is the theme of the chapter. the passage is not defining, constraining or limiting what can be given to God. In its full picture, its a passage ensuring that one doesn't 'cheat' God.

Lev 27:1 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying,
Lev 27:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When a man shall make a singular vow, the persons shall be for the LORD by thy estimation.

A vow is a solemn promise to God, to give something to God. like Hannah or Jephthath vowed. Here were laws concerning vows and people were not expected to be rash with vows or promises to God. If someone vowed a human being, there was an estimate/value for that person. That value or amount was to be given to the priest.

Lev 27:8 But if he be poorer than thy estimation, then he shall present himself before the priest, and the priest shall value him; according to his ability that vowed shall the priest value him.

If the person vowing was indeed poorer than the standard value, then the priest was to re-value. There was no option of redemption given here for persons. Such persons belonged to God, like Samuel and Jephthath's daughter.

Lev 27:9 And if it be a beast, whereof men bring an offering unto the LORD, all that any man giveth of such unto the LORD shall be holy.
Lev 27:10 He shall not alter it, nor change it, a good for a bad, or a bad for a good: and if he shall at all change beast for beast, then it and the exchange thereof shall be holy.
Lev 27:11 And if it be any unclean beast, of which they do not offer a sacrifice unto the LORD, then he shall present the beast before the priest:
Lev 27:12 And the priest shall value it, whether it be good or bad: as thou valuest it, who art the priest, so shall it be.
Lev 27:13 But if he will at all redeem it, then he shall add a fifth part thereof unto thy estimation.

Above were the laws as they obtained for animals, whether clean or unclean. They could not be redeemed/bought back. Only the unclean animal could be bought back.

Lev 27:14 And when a man shall sanctify his house to be holy unto the LORD, then the priest shall estimate it, whether it be good or bad: as the priest shall estimate it, so shall it stand.
Lev 27:15 And if he that sanctified it will redeem his house, then he shall add the fifth part of the money of thy estimation unto it, and it shall be his.
Apart from humans or animals, one could vow property. Above is the case of vowing a house, or a field. These ones could be redeemed or bought back. For instance, if the priest valued the house at $100,000, the person that vowed would have to pay $120,000 to get/buy back the house that he vowed. He was to add a fifth i.e 1/5 of the whole. All these chapter was talking about was what you had vowed, what could be vowed, and what could be bought back. That is what you could change your mind not to give God after vowing, and the process.


Lev 27:21 But the field, when it goeth out in the jubilee, shall be holy unto the LORD, as a field devoted; the possession thereof shall be the priest's.
This verse is quoted to show that what was vowed went to the Lord primarily through the priest. It was holy/separate/set apart to God.

Lev 27:26 Only the firstling of the beasts, which should be the LORD's firstling, no man shall sanctify it; whether it be ox, or sheep: it is the LORD's.

Towards the end of the chapter, we are told that there were somethings that could not be vowed as they already belonged to God. It was already God's by right, it was already something that must be given under the law, so it did not qualify as a vow. Technically, it is not yours. Amongst such was the firstborn of animals. It is the Lord's already, you don't come and vow/promise "Oh God, do this for me and then i will give you my firstborn animal". The firstborn animal was already God's, so its not something man would sanctify. Another thing that was already God's was the tithe. It was already a law for them, they were to tithe. They could not make their tithe a vow.

Lev 27:28 Notwithstanding no devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the LORD of all that he hath, both of man and beast, and of the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the LORD.
Lev 27:29 None devoted, which shall be devoted of men, shall be redeemed; but shall surely be put to death.
Anything devoted or dedicated was not even under consideration of redemption or buying back. Once it was devoted, that's the end. Whether agric produce or man or anything. The clear understanding of this chapter shows that it was not defining a tithe. It was giving different conditions concerning redemption as regards what was vowed.

Lev 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.
Lev 27:31 And if a man will at all redeem aught of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.
The tithe is holy/set apart to God. It could not be vowed, it already belonged to God. It's not saying what tithe must consist or not consist. It's in consonance with the rest of the chapter, stating how or what qualified for redemption or vows. Plant tithes could be redeemed, animal tithes could not be redeemed. Redemption/buying back was the subject and goal of the chapter. If for any reason, someone wanted to buy back his crop tithes, he'd pay currency value to the tune of 120%. That is if the value of the crop tithe being given is 100% estimated at say 50 shekels. The fellow would give 60shekels. In verse 16, a homer of barley seed shall be valued at fifty shekels of silver. If a person had 10 homers of barley for harvest, he brought one homer as tithe. The equivalent is 50 shekels. If he wanted to use the barley tithe, he'd add 1/5 which is 10shekels. He'd give 60 shekels and carry his homer of barley to do whatever with it. Notice that even the law allowed one to give currency in place of crops when tithing. There was nothing abominable or sacrilegeous or unacceptable about it. It was a condition that could come up. Where do you think the 60shekels would be stored, it would also be under the tithe account or bank.


Lev 27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
Lev 27:33 He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.

The tithe of animals could not be redeemed. Now, that being said, there is NO Scripture that states that one cannot give/tithe money. In fact, we have shown instances where currency was given as tithe. BTW, what is money? Money is simply a medium of exchange, a measure of value of services. It was not out of place or uncommon to use agricultural things as a medium of exchange. It is in today's language and today's economy where currency(paper money) takes centre stage as a medium of exchange. In former times, it was not so. There was trade by barter even in our own local history. 1 Samuel 2:5 talks of some fellows that hired out themselves for bread. Jesus Christ talked about the labourer being worthy of his hire. In that passage, the pay Jesus was talking about was something about eating and drinking. Not every earning is paper money or shekels. King Solomon for instance paid some of his labourers with food. That was their own pay or money. It was their medium of exchange.

1Ki 5:6 Now therefore command thou that they hew me cedar trees out of Lebanon; and my servants shall be with thy servants: and unto thee will I give hire for thy servants according to all that thou shalt appoint: for thou knowest that there is not among us any that can skill to hew timber like unto the Sidonians.
1Ki 5:9 My servants shall bring them down from Lebanon unto the sea: and I will convey them by sea in floats unto the place that thou shalt appoint me, and will cause them to be discharged there, and thou shalt receive them: and thou shalt accomplish my desire, in giving food for my household.
1Ki 5:10 So Hiram gave Solomon cedar trees and fir trees according to all his desire.
1Ki 5:11 And Solomon gave Hiram twenty thousand measures of wheat for food to his household, and twenty measures of pure oil: thus gave Solomon to Hiram year by year.


As seen scripturally,not only paper currency is a valid medium of exchange. The basis of the tithe was to give a tenth of one's harvest, one's salary. In the new testament, it is so simple and basic that the common man understands what is driven at. All these big big technical phrases(monetary tithe) will only make simple things complicated. Thank God, things are being revealed unto babes, the wise should sit up and learn. The new testament books did not limit or constrain sowing and reaping to agricultural produce. What a man sows is what he reaps. Sowing and reaping is not only about crops and animals. It could be about deeds, words, money, currency, anything.

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
2Co 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

Imagine if we used the same logic/reasoning in presenting M4 to the verses above. One would rigidly say that sowing applies only to plants. But we know that is is not limited to plants or agricproduce. If you give(anything) bountifully, you are sowing bountifully. And your reaping is not limited to tomatoes and maize.
There is NOTHING wrong with giving tithes of agric produce TODAY, if that is what you reaped or harvested. i do not think God would reject it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with obeying any of God's Word as far as we have a good understanding of the covenant we are operating, and not using the obedience to obtain salvation. If you have the grace to keep the command, why not. i say, keep it. Paul the apostle was circumcised, and he circumcised someone in the new covenant. However, he wasn't doing it to be justified or acceptable to God. Listen carefully to what Paul said.

1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
(BBE) Circumcision is nothing, and its opposite is nothing, but only doing the orders of God is of value.
(CEV) Being circumcised or uncircumcised isn't really what matters. The important thing is to obey God's commands.
(GNB) For whether or not a man is circumcised means nothing; what matters is to obey God's commandments.

The important thing is to obey God's commands. That mattered to him, the keeping of the commandments were good and encouraged. However, it was not forced,and we are not forcing it. This is what we are taking time and space to explain on this thread and medium. And we are not using it unlawfully to seek forgiveness or salvation or justification. There is nothing wrong with a believer taking the whole Bible as the inspired Word of God. i cringe when i hear anyone say stuff about where christians should read in the Bible. The early christians read everything. There were thousands of believers who were ZEALOUS for the law. It did not take a thing away from their salvation as long as they knew how the new covenant operated.
Act 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

Again, there is NOTHING wrong with obeying God's word or even keeping feasts if you can. The only thing is that its like one using a pager when smartphones are available. Or as one using lanterns when electricity is available. It is not a crime or a sin or wrong. i close this rebut with what Paul wrote to gentile corinthians about feasts.
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Let's know what we are doing and become God's workmen that need not to be ashamed.

END

Thank you Image123 for the presentation.

We await Mark Miwerds and Candour for their Response to Rebuttal M5.

Mark will post our response soon. I am the cause of the delay and I apologise.

Thanks

RESPONSE TO REBUTTAL OF M4/M5



Our fellow discussants express amazement that we harangue them for tithing. No, we do not disturb them for tithing, same way we won't disturb them if they decide to obey Lev 23:24 by having a feast of trumpets every first day of the seventh month. What we call them out on is to at the very least, stay true to what the bible teaches on tithes and not dismember it and repackage the distortion as Christian doctrine and obligation which is being preached to uninformed children of God.

The reason that we state that the money that pro-tithers claim to be tithes cannot be tithes is totally Scripturally based. See where God gave the law on tithes


Leviticus 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD.

Leviticus 27:31 And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.

Leviticus 27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.

Leviticus 27:33 He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.


The above verses tell the reader what God said His Holy tithes consist of. Absent from that concise description given by God are the words, “silver”, “gold”, “money”, “shekel” or any other word found in the Word of God associated with money. God defined His tithes as agricultural produce and livestock. We are not so brash as to add to the Word of God anything that is not there and we admonish our opposing brethren to take heed too.


Furthermore, everywhere in the Old Testament after the passage in Leviticus 27 that tithes is mentioned, it is always in relation to food. No mention of tithes being monetary at all despite the fact that bible records Abraham of having bought Sarah's burial place with shekels of silver, at least 400 years before the tithe laws came into being.

Search and read up all the references below that relate to tithe, you WILL NOT find a single case of silver or gold being tithed. Its always crops, livestock, edibles. Even where the tither is asked to change the tithes to money because of distance, he MUST buy back the edibles when he arrived at the place of worship.

Le 27:30-32;

Nu 18:24,26,28;

De 12:6,11,17; 14:22-29; 26:12;

2Ch 31:5-6,12;

Ne 10:37-38; 12:44; 13:5,12;

Mal 3:8,10;

How can one come to a conclusion that they can tithe money when God said that His tithe was something that was to be eaten? The only reference in the bible that remotely, and I mean remotely resembles tithing anything other than agric produce is the self righteous, hypocritical prayer of the Pharisee in the parable Jesus narrated in Luke 18:12. Is it sufficient to cast off other scripture on tithes because of this hypocritical prayer of a Pharisee whose lifestyle Christ evidently loathed? Are our brothers saying the Pharisees example is their scriptural guide?

The reason we state that pastors should not be teaching their congregations that they are to tithe their money to the Church, again, is because there is no instruction for the saints to do so in the New Covenant. Christians are asked to give to their brethren or leaders who need just like leaders are enjoined to provide for needy brethren among them (Acts 20:34-35), NOT TO TITHE to anybody.

Our problem is with those who state that God requires tithes from us today and then go ahead to say all categories of God's people are obligated to tithe. This is totally untrue. God only required tithes from farmers, not from the general populace and he doesn't ask tithes from Christians today because the main purpose of the tithes as a form of giving is no more. The levitical priesthood is gone, buried and has disappeared. The other tithes were for the tither, widows, orphans, strangers and its VERY CURIUOS why NO CHURCH or PASTOR ever teaches these types of tithes even when we have an abundance of this category of people all over our communities. We wonder why this is so.

While the tithe was to be lifted before the Lord as a heave offering, not all things that were heaved before the Lord were titheable. This is very clear from the scriptures our brother quoted. Someone has to really reengineer those scriptures to say otherwise. Tithes to Levites are heaved and tithes by levites to priests are also heaved, but NOT ALL HEAVE OFFERINGS ARE TITHES. To say otherwise is to twist scriptures. Leviticus 27:30-33 is clear as to what the tithe consisted of. We are very happy our fellow discussants finally agree a tithe is NOT a vow. It belongs to God already hence it can't be used as a vow. This helps prove once again that Jacob vowing to give tithes means it wasn't a REGULAR practice for him. Jacob was NOT a tither. If he was, he won't use it as a vow to bargain with God since God already owned it. That would be trying to deceive God.

While various items in Leviticus 27 were vowed and redeemed, those things mentioned prior to Leviticus 27:30 are not called tithes. Verse 30 begins with, “And all the tithe of the land” This is all inclusive. Not inclusive of the previous mentioned items in verses 1 through 29, but “all” is in reference to tithes… “all the tithes of the land.” Once again, we don't have to re-engineer those scriptures to prove any case. Let the scriptures speak for themselves. We see God then go on to explain explicitly and in detail what He means when He says, “And all of the tithes of the land”. “whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD’s: it is Holy unto the Lord.”

It must be noticed that God did not say “whatever it may be,” or “whatever one chooses to tithe.” Nor did He add the injunction after “whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree,… and every tenth animal that passeth under the rod” “or of any other thing,” to that verse. No, God was specific as to what He considered titheable and what He wanted the children of Israel to tithe…the seed of the land, and the fruit of the tree, and every tenth animal that passeth under the rod.”

We are not making too much ado about anything. We are only helping our brethren stay true to the laws they claim to practice. Since they say its the 'safest thing to do', its better to do it as God almighty intended otherwise if its a punishable offense at the judgement seat, then the tither and preacher who adds to or subtracts from the tithe instituted by God are in serious danger. God said ALL the tithe of the land was crops and livestock. And He left it at that. NOBODY HAS ANY RIGHT to say otherwise.

Once again, see the verses below. They are strictly about tithes.

Leviticus 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD.

Leviticus 27:31 And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.

Leviticus 27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.

Leviticus 27:33 He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed..

The pro-tithe team states that the Leviticus 27 was about vows and redemption. This is only true up to verse 29. To say vows included the tithes described in verse 30 onwards is an attempt to adjust or 'correct' the truth. I wish to remind our brothers that they said of their own volition that a tithe is different from a vow so why the stylish attempt to make vow encompass the tithe?

An example is Verse 16 which we see addreses an issue very different than tithes. It is speaking of that which man sets apart for the Lord of his own choosing. Notice:

Leviticus 27:16 And if a man shall sanctify unto the LORD some part of a field of his possession, then thy estimation shall be according to the seed thereof: an homer of barley seed shall be valued at fifty shekels of silver.

This is an account of a man setting apart a certain part of his field, not to grow crops on, but for other purposes. But if that man does do such, he is to pay a certain amount that represents that part of the field that seed could have been planted on but was not. But God does not say it was to be tithed, rather, he said it was measured by a certain measurement for 50 shekels of silver. If a portion of field was not used, it was to be as if it could have been used and payment made. But God did not say a tenth is to be paid. No, he said 50 shekels of silver. A set amount. This is not speaking of tithes in any way.

Man could not give money in place of the crop tithe. He was to tithe the crops regardless if he wanted to keep them or not. The word “redeem” in verse 31is simply 'buy back' in simple English. However it is translated from the Hebrew word “ga’al” which also means “to buy back.” The tither could buy back the crops tithe if he so choses. This does not mean “give money instead. How can one “buy back” something that one never got rid of in the first place?

What transpired was the tither, after harvesting his crops, would take his crops tithe to the Levites. If the tither so chose to buy back the tithe, the Levite would assess the value of the tithe(This means the Levite must see the tithe in its raw form FIRST before any talk of redemption can occur) and give him the option of buying back the tithe at 120% the value of the tithe. The money was not the tithe, because the tithe has already being given as it is. Money was only used to buy back the tithe from the Levite.


It is really stretching it to say that tithes could be money. Especially in light of the fact that tithes could be bought back from the Levites if the farmer chose to buy them back. If you could tithe money, why the option of a buy back? We surely can't use money to redeem money.

See these other verses on tithes

Deuteronomy 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

Deuteronomy 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.

Deuteronomy 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:

Deuteronomy 14:25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:

Deuteronomy 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

God requires edibles as tithes. NOT money. Since God defined in His Word that tithes were crops and livestock only, it is not accurate to say that one tithed one’s salary. One tithed from the increase of the gardens and orchards, (that which grew from the ground and trees) and stalls (livestock).

A shepherd who was hired to tend to a herders flocks was not required to tithe his wages. The flocks did not belong to him. A worker hired to harvest a farmers fields was not required to tithe. The crops did not belong to him. Tentmakers, lawyers, bankers, brickmasons, etc., none of these were required to tithe from their trades. Only that which God stated in Leviticus 27:30-33 was titheable.

The pro-tithe team says that there is nothing wrong with giving tithes of agricultural produce today. That is unfortunately an attempt to patronise God. God doesn't need anybody to console him with what can be given as tithe or what he can manage as tithe because he gave the tithe laws and CLEARLY STATED WHAT TITHES he required of those he gave the tithe laws and this is contrary to what the preachers of tithe preach today. However, The Word of God tells us that the ordinances were abolished by Jesus Christ. To say there is nothing wrong with tithing today is to say the tithe preachers know more than God and to say Christians should tithe is to say Paul lied in Eph 2:15 and Col 2:14.

The pro-tithe team states that there is nothing wrong with keeping the command and we ask why they are selective in keeping these commands of God? Then distort and deform even the one they claim to obey? God says those who submit to the Law must keep the
whole Law or be cursed.

Deuteronomy 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

We cannot pick and choose what Laws we want to keep. It is either all, or none. You choose one out of all the laws and disregard all the others, you are cursed according to the above verses.


The pro-tithe team believe they are keeping the command to tithe. Yet the command to tithe is not a command to tithe money, but rather crops and livestock and surely not to give it to pastors but Levites, widows, orphans, strangers. Of course the preachers of today don't mention widows, orphans or strangers when they pay or preach tithes. Once again, why don't they?

So whose command are they keeping? Surely Not that of God and definitely not from the bible.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

If they want to use the tithe format as a fund raising format for their churches, they have liberty to but it is wrong to tell folks they are failing God by not following this man made version of tithes that they preach and practice today. Since God’s Word says His Holy tithes were crops and livestock only, it is an offense to insist it is something other than what God has said. And since God's word says tithes are to be given to Levites, widows, orphans, strangers and to be eaten by the tither, it is wrong, greedy and very self serving for it to be appropriated by pastors in the name of furthering the gospel.


END

RESPONSE TO RESPONSE OF M4/M5

A sketch of the usual antitithe argument below.

For T: I plan to give 10,000 as tithe.

Against T: Well 10,000 is not tithe as it is not edible.

For T: I have given the 10,000.

Against T: (screams) Why did you give tithe to a non Levite? Now you must obey all the law.

For T: (scratches head seriously) I thought you said it is not real tithe?


It is the above scenario and position that amazes us, not your haranguing or disturbing. Christians should not exactly be amazed at being disturbed or troubled. What we advice is that you leave us with God to decide. It is not you that will tell us that what we want to give our Father is unacceptable. Till date, there remains NO SCRIPTURE presented that tells us not to tithe, whether of crop or currency. Don't worry, don't call us out, thank you very much. We are okay with our giving and we also have the Spirit of God. Find another ministry as it were.
How do you claim/state that the money that pro-tithers claim to be tithes cannot be tithes, and then turn back to say we are under the law for tithing? We have clearly shown that Leviticus 27:30-33 is not ALL Scripture. Scriptures do not end or start there. Genesis is also Scripture, Matthew is Scripture, Malachi is Scripture. We would do well to SEARCH the Scriptures so as to get the full picture of what God's Word is. Its like someone got stuck on the Scripture below.

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

If someone claims dogmatically that it is not God's or Jesus' will that the Gentiles should be preached to, such a fellow is largely on his own. He has not read, or refused to read ALL Scripture, to know the mind and will of God fully revealed.
Leviticus 27 is not the only chapter in scriptures that talk about tithes. Neither does the passage claim to be the final say or definition of what tithe MUST consist. The passage/chapter is simply about "vows" and "redemptions." i don't think that i said tithes are vows, or that tithes are not vows. Of course, we have earlier seen and learnt that a tithe CAN BE a vow as Jacob demonstrated BEFORE THE LAW.

Gen 28:20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,
Gen 28:21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:
Gen 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of a[b]ll that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee. [/b]

We have also shown that there is nothing wrong with a vow being conditional. In fact, a vow should be conditional. We however see that UNDER THE LAW, the tithe could not be vowed as it already belonged to God. It was compulsorily God's. It's like saying "I promise that I will give you your child if you help me". That would almost be a senseless vow with no commitment attached. The child is already His. Same way, the tithe was already God's, the firstlings of animals were already God's by default. Every devoted thing was already God's by default. The vow was to be of something belonging to you, not of someone else property, or of God's property. This is why it stated that the tithe, the devoted thing, and the firstlings are holy. Holy simply means set apart for God. See the three below.

Lev 27:26 Only the firstling of the beasts, which should be the LORD's firstling, no man shall sanctify it; whether it be ox, or sheep: it is the LORD's.
Lev 27:28 Notwithstanding no devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the LORD of all that he hath, both of man and beast, and of the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the LORD.
Lev 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.

It is not only crops and animals that were holy unto God. Anything devoted, ANYTHING belonged to God. The main message is missed when one limits it to talk about what to tithe or what not to tithe. We can all read the whole passage in perhaps an easier to read translation of the Bible and get the theme of the passage. Also we showed how shekels could be used as tithe if the giver wanted to redeem a crop tithe.
It has being irrefutably shown that money is simply a medium of exchange. Money is not limited to bills and coins or paper currency. Money is an accepted medium of exchange. We have shown from scriptures how food was used as money(a medium of exchange) to pay and hire people. Hear Jesus talk about pay.


Luk 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the laborer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
(CEV) Stay with the same family, eating and drinking whatever they give you, because workers are worth what they earn. Don't move around from house to house.
(GNB) Stay in that same house, eating and drinking whatever they offer you, for workers should be given their pay. Don't move around from one house to another.
(GW) Stay with the family that accepts you. Eat and drink whatever they offer you. After all, the worker deserves his pay. Do not move around from one house to another.
(WEB) Remain in that same house, eating and drinking the things they give, for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Don't go from house to house.


Wages or pay or salary, or what you earn is not only restricted in coins and shekels. It can be done in any medium. that medium would be money in that instance. I have shown you how wise King Solomon did this as well. We however presently live in an economy that respects coins and paper currency more than any other medium.
For the umpteenth time, WE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW. We are not limited to its dictates or restrictions if there are any so called. You cannot subject anybody to your definition found in the law. Even God has moved past that method, and we would obey God rather than men. In God's Word, we have clearly seen God accept tithes that were non agricultural produce. We have seen people under the law and outside the law, who give tithes of more than agricultural produce. Father Abraham remains a ready and eternal example. Jacob is also an example of one who tithed of ALL that God gave him. The attempt to make the harisee look extra bad does not take away anything from the fact that he gave tithe of ALL that he possessed, not just anise and plantain.
Gen 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

Common sense and history shows us the reasons why agricultural produce was the benchmark for giving. The bulk of everyday giving and sacrifices and offering was agric produce. This is because the society was agrarian. The economy was agrarian. Our economy is not agrarian, we have had the Industrial revolution, and then the Information revolution. Those were major shifts in world economy. In today's economy, individual wealth is measured in currency, naira, dollars. In Bible times, individual wealth was measured in agric produce terms. The rich man had to build and increase in barns and store houses and cattle. That was their index of prosperity or blessing. Everyone understood that language as blessing. In similar vein, their punishments were also in poor harvest, no rain, sickness/plagues.

Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

This was basically the picture of blessing and favour for them, good harvest. In Deuteronomy 28 where God is blessing them for obedience, it is a similar picture of baskets and barns, and fruits and store and rain. This covered the whole of Israel and they understood it even though they did not have our high level of education. They did not take God as just talking to the farmers. The accountants and lawyers did not think they were left out of these passages. In the New Testament Bible too, Jesus spoke general along these lines of agriculture. Most of His illustrations were from these and everyone knew and got something from what He was saying. They did not throw His illustrations and messages to farmers. When God talks about harvest or reaping or sowing, He is not ONLY talking about crops and animals or farmers. This is a hazy view or picture. We need to be men in understanding. If you'd notice also, even under the law, tithes was given also of processed stuff like oil and wine. it was not limited to crops and animals.

The purpose why the tithe was given is very clearly stated there is no need to re-direct it. tithing is not done to console God, it is a wonder how my friends Mark and Candour arrived at such inference.

Num 18:21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Num 18:31 And ye shall eat it in every place, ye and your households: for it is your reward for your service in the tabernacle of the congregation.

i wanted to quote other easier to read translations but i sense that if one does not get it in this plain passages above, you're not likely to get it even if it is written in the sky in your dialect. The tithe was given for their service which they served. Is there still service today in the church? Yes. That is the serious question to ask, not if there is still levite today. As we have reminded you, tithes was not given to only levites in the Bible. Some widows, orphans, Melchisedek received tithe as well. The firstborns could easily have being the ones receiving it if they were the ones serving. The point is the service. It was used as a reward or salary for their service in the church.

Talking about church, the old testament church was slightly different from today's church. however, before God, it was still a church.
Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Th Old Covenant is different from the New Covenant. Nevertheless, they are both covenants. Even if the tithe under the law is different from the tithe outside the law, the fact remains that it is still tithe.
Imagine bread for instance. i ate bread yesterday. i am certain it is not the same bread that the children of Israel ate in the wilderness. Yet they are both bread. This is understanding. Even Jesus Christ called Himself some sort of bread. And when we pray Luk 11:3 Give us day by day our daily bread. Most of us have paper currency in mind. i'm not expecting God to rain loaves of wheat bread on me. He did something like that before though. When someone comes and start arguing about definition of bread, i think there is a problem.

Now, it is wrong for any christian to say "there is no instruction for the saints to do so in the New Covenant." The Bible clearly says that our syllabus is ALL Scripture. This attempts to remove from Scripture is not of God.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

ALL SCRIPTURE IS PROFITABLE FOR INSTRUCTION. That is what the above verse says. It is not just what pro-tithers say. Nobody should be asking for where the tithe is written, the tithe is written in the Bible and the Bible is God's Word. People would say the law is abolished. The valid question should be what law? i have said somewhere else, and will re-say that a misunderstanding of the covenants would always put people in unnecessary confusion. Even people with less than half our educations had understanding of the covenants and were zealous of the law. Yet they were saved. It is not a thing of education and grammar and age, it is a thing of revelation from God's spirit.
Act 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

Ananias the man that Jesus sent to lay hands on Paul the apostle when he was converted, the man was devout to the law.
Act 22:12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
(CEV) In that city there was a man named Ananias, who faithfully obeyed the Law of Moses and was well liked by all the Jewish people living there.

Paul himself stated that the keeping of the commandments was important.
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

The Bible does not contradict, it is our limited understanding that is the issue. And we all need to humble ourselves and ask God for understanding. Now if we say the law is abolished, what law? Jesus said the two greatest laws are.
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

That is, under the law, love God and love neighbour are two great commandments. Now the law is abolished, are these two commandments abolished?
In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said the weightier matters of the law are judgment, mercy, and faith. Now that the law is abolished, are these heavy matters of the law abolished? These are pertinent questions that antitihers eternally dodge. Why the cherry picking? Why abolish the tithe and try to keep the weightier ones like faith and mercy? What exactly is abolished? It is the Old Agreement that is abolished. It is the Old priesthood and leviiacal rituals that are obsolete. The Word of God is not obsolete, the commandments of God are not obsolete. We may not be so perfect as to keep them all, but they are not obsolete. And it is faith in Jesus and grace that saves us, not the keeping of commandments. This is the good news, this is the new testament.

Now, one has to be omniscient or omnipresent to state that NO CHURCH or PASTOR ever teaches a thing. Also, the tithe was equal to a heave offering. The tithe is a form of giving and a form of heave offering. When you tithe, you are giving, you are offering a heave offering. That is the Bible and we make no apologies for that.

Num 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as a heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
Num 18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up a heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.
Num 18:27 And this your heave offering shall be reckoned unto you, as though it were the corn of the threshingfloor, and as the fullness of the winepress.
Num 18:28 Thus ye also shall offer a heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD's heave offering to Aaron the priest.


BTW, when we use the word "ONLY" we have already shown what that could imply. If God does not say ONLY, let us not say that He said ONLY. There is nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with loving God, or loving neighbours, or mercy, or judgement or faith. These are all weighty and important parts of the law. Does any antitither fulfill or attempt to love God, or neighbour, or show mercy or faith? However, if anyone does these or any of these to be saved, he must be prepared not to offend in one point, else he is guilty of all. He is not justified taking that route.

END

Presenting R5 would be coming rather late and most likely in bits. Schedules have being quite engaging and may remain so till after the christmas. Wanted to propose ta break yesterday, even thought i sent it. However , i think i can still manage without the break so as not to inconvenience anyone. Only that respnses may be coming in late and from mobile phone. Thanks. R5 would be in today by God's grace.

Image123: Presenting R5 would be coming rather late and most likely in bits. Schedules have being quite engaging and may remain so till after the christmas. Wanted to propose ta break yesterday, even thought i sent it. However , i think i can still manage without the break so as not to inconvenience anyone. Only that respnses may be coming in late and from mobile phone. Thanks. R5 would be in today by God's grace.

Hi Image, don't worry jare. Its the Christmas season and my own schedule too has gone wacko. Instead of sending your post in bits, I'll advise you take your time and get it together to help us plan the response too. I'm sure everybody will understand.

I assure you that I do.

Cheers

Okay, thanks for understnding. Season's Greetings everyone .

Candour:

Hi Image, don't worry jare. Its the Christmas season and my own schedule too has gone wacko. Instead of sending your post in bits, I'll advise you take your time and get it together to help us plan the response too. I'm sure everybody will understand.

I assure you that I do.

Cheers

I concur with this provision.

Season greetings to a everyone!

While we await Image's presentation of R5, permit me to ask Mark Miwerds questions on his being blind; his being a believer in Christ and His not tithing.

Blind.

Sir, how did you loose your sight?

I hear that blind people have other senses well developed than those of us who see. My Pastor shared a story of his blind friend in school; how this individual always seem to be able to sense things, like detecting an approaching car, even when they could not hear or see it. Is this true sir and what are some experiences you have along these lines?

Please this discuss are a kind of interlude.

Thank you.

....

DrummaBoy: While we await Image's presentation of R5, permit me to ask Mark Miwerds questions on his being blind; his being a believer in Christ and His not tithing.

Blind.

Sir, how did you loose your sight?

Blessings, my Brother. I was born with very poor vision. At just two years old, my mother had me in glasses due to the fact that I was constantly running into walls and objects that I should have had sense enough to avoid. LOL The doctors examined me and found I had degenerative retinas, later diagnosed with retinitis pigmentosa. In 1987, my vision had deteriorated so bad that I could not see out of my left eye at all and my right eye only had tunnel vision. (less than an 18° peripheral field and greater than 20/400 with corrective lenses)

Vision went progressively worse and eventually left me in the present state I am in.

I hear that blind people have other senses well developed than those of us who see. My Pastor shared a story of his blind friend in school; how this individual always seem to be able to sense things, like detecting an approaching car, even when they could not hear or see it. Is this true sir and what are some experiences you have along these lines?

Please this discuss are a kind of interlude.

Thank you.

In my opinion, it is not that one sense is better than the other. I have just trained myself to listen to things more closely. I can go outside and listen to the surroundings as I walk. When I do, it is not necessarily that I know this is a tree and this is a signpost. But I do notice a change in the sound around me. Wind has something to do with it. I can hear the wind blowing even gently, but if I walk past a parked car, the sound changes. The wind is still blowing, but the object has blocked the sound to an extent.

Try it sometime. Walk on your sidewalk with your car out of your driveway. Do this a couple times. Then, do it with your eyes closed. You should notice no change in the sound. But then, park your car in the driveway. Close your eyes and walk slowly past it. You should notice a change in the sound.

When I pass a tree or a signpost, it is like a blip on a radar screen. If that makes any sense?

I have a brother who once walked with me to my mailbox when I was living in a city on the East Coast. Now, the way I walked was through the woods. This was the shortest path. The catch? There is a stream that I had to cross. There were no bridges on that route that I took. Yet, I had learned the route so well that I knew where the stones were in the stream. I could literally walk across that water without getting my feet wet.

And no doubt, others could too during the day when the path was lit by the sun filtering through the trees. But I always went to the mail boxes at night. My brother followed me one night, and I had to chuckle when I heard his foot hit the water. He could not see anything more than my shadow on the path and as I crossed that stream. So naturally, he could not see the stepping stones I was so accustomed to walking on. LOL

Now, the stream incident was learned not just by listening to sounds around me, but also due to repetition over time. I knew where the stones were due to the fact that friends had taken me on the path many times and taught me when I needed to take a big step or a little one. But yes, the sounds are different on that path due to multiple trees along the way.

Thank you Miwerds for that testimony.

I will suspend further questions for now, so that the thread is not taken up with Miwerds testimony alone. I will return to it later.

While we await Image123's Presentation R5 (and there is no hurry Image about presenting, sir), I will still encourage testimonies, free speeches and any such likes to keep us entertained until the discussion continue. Contributions shall be from Participants and moderators alone; please viewers should still forbear with us.

I also welcome Christmas posts also, in celebrating the season.

Thank you gentlemen.

Concerning our agreement not post to on other tithing threads, I have complied.... but with reserve. As I said at the beginning of the preliminaries to the Discussion, I felt that request was to trap us into something that we should not be trapped in. If God wants me to post in another thread, I cannot due to the restrictions I was made to agree to. And now, this break Are they stall tactics? or is it truly because of Christmas.

If we are made to take a break from this thread, then it is my thought that we should be allowed to post in the tithing threads until at what time this Discussion thread continues.

Mark Miwerds: Concerning our agreement not post to on other tithing threads, I have complied.... but with reserve. As I said at the beginning of the preliminaries to the Discussion, I felt that request was to trap us into something that we should not be trapped in. If God wants me to post in another thread, I cannot due to the restrictions I was made to agree to. And now, this break Are they stall tactics? or is it truly because of Christmas.

If we are made to take a break from this thread, then it is my thought that we should be allowed to post in the tithing threads until at what time this Discussion thread continues.

Pending when we receive the response from Image and Rhymey to Miwerds "protest" above, I will request that Image123 and co should give us a date and possibly time when they intend posting Presenting R5 so that this discuss is not overly elongated.

DrummaBoy:

Pending when we receive the response from Image and Rhymey to Miwerds "protest" above, I will request that Image123 and co should give us a date and possibly time when they intend posting Presenting R5 so that this discuss is not overly elongated.

i clearly stated after christmas, christmas is 25th i think. i opted to post in bits to save time, lets save the insinuations.

Image123:

i clearly stated after christmas, christmas is 25th i think. i opted to post in bits to save time, lets save the insinuations.

I am not insinuating anything, Image123.

I understand you said after Christmas. I only requested a date and time, after the said Christmas; is that too much to ask? I am sure you read the request by Miwerds, what is your response to it? There are four of you in this discussion; we should be considerate of others.

Again, I request Image123 and Rhymeyjohn to give us a date and a time, after Christmas, when you will Present R5.

I believe my request is still within the ambit of the rules we agreed on for this discussion.

Thank you.

Presenting R5 Our tithing is done to fulfill all righteousness (Matthew 3:15)


Season's Greetings everybody, and thank you for the patience, the reading and the following.
We've been having a discuss on tithing. Mark and Candour have been against the tithe while Rhymeyjohn and i have been for the tithe. My presentations with Rhymeyjohn has been central on why we believe believers should tithe. We've focused as much as possible on scriptural reasons and not on what man does or has done. We believe and know that many good things have been abused and misused, but none of these things move us, neither are we detracted nor distracted from our love, service and worship of God. We have continued to repeat clearly that tithing is not to be done for salvation. You cannot obtain or buy salvation by tithing, neither does it justify you before God. It is by faith that we are justified, not by any work. Nevertheless, we strongly believe that a righteous man should do good works. AGAIN, doing good works is not what makes us righteous, but we are made righteous to do good works. It's like the cart and the horse thing. The horse should be in front of the cart, and not the cart in from of the horse.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We believe that giving a tithe is a good work and we are not discouraged in doing good works as this is what Christ expects of His disciples that our good works might be seen, and that we may be thoroughly furnished unto all good works. That is the way our Christ lived. He was prepared to do good works, even when one would have thought that it was not necessary for Him, being the Son of God and all. Even though He didn't need to be baptised in water, in fact i don't think there was any scripture that showed that anyone should, even when He did not really need to go to synagogues, or have to mingle with sinners and hypocrites in church. Still He did all these things. Hear Him.
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

The above passage was at the baptism and are the words of Jesus Christ. Notice that not only did He want to fulfill all righteousness, but He INCLUDED all those like Him in the position. He said it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness
If He had said it becometh ME to fulfill all righteousness, that will be quite understandable, to an extent we can relate with the why. But He says it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness, it becometh US i.e it is right for us. Not just me, but us. In fact, John the beloved in his epistle says that we ought to walk as Jesus walked.
1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

We ought to have the same mindset that Jesus had. The same view and willingness. Anyone that believes in Jesus and says he is abiding in Christ, ought to have the same mind, it becometh US to fulfill all righteousness. The scriptures show us what is righteous and good. There is actually a new testament passage that says that the law is holy and good. It shows us good works.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

In the Scriptures, we see the tithes as something good to do. There are scriptures that show God telling people to actually tithe, i am sure God cannot be telling people to do an unrighteous thing. Not now, not before, and not in the future.
We see the tithe as a good thing to do, and we are careful to MAINTAIN good works like tithing. It's either a good work or a bad work, and we are pleased to discover that it is a good work. By God's grace, we will maintain it. It becometh us to fulfill all righteousness.

2Co 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
2Th 2:17 Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.
Titus 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

1Ti 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

That they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. Giving is a good work, very very good work. Jesus said to GIVE, and we know that giving the tithe qualifies as GIVE. Nobody is saying that all one should give is the tithe, but that there is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with/in giving the tithe. Of course, when someone gives 100% or anything more than 10%, he/she has given more than the tenth. It would be ridiculous to ask where the tenth is when he gave more than the tenth.
To add to this, doing good works, and obeying God is like taking in food to the body. There is what is called balanced diet. Studies show what the dangers are and the disadvantages in not having balanced diet. Science folks will tell you that a particular food or fruit contains proteins and certain number of vitamins. And they can tell you how such vitamins help with body metabolism. Rice is said to contain carbohydrate, and is VERY GOOD for the body. However, there are some folks in this world that may not eat rice. That does not mean they will not grow. They may SOURCE carbohydrates from some other food. This does not take away from the FACT that rice is rich in carbohydrates, and that the persons would have benefited immensely from taking rice. It's the same with tithes, prayers, studying scriptures, diligence, hardwork, patience, etc. They all have their benefits. Godliness is great gain. However, it is still possible for one to 'make it' in a way without these.
It is no gain to argue about some other folk that does not pray and he is promoted, or some folk that did not tithe and has a car, or some dishonest folk that is making money. Many of these things are intertwined. Personal experience or testimony does not take away the fact and truth found in God's Word. let us walk with understanding and be mature in understanding. By the way, the hallmark/ standard of christian blessing is not necessarily physical blessings.

END

Thank you Image123 for the Presentation.

Thank you, Image123 for posting the Presentation R5. A draft of the Rebuttal has been emailed to Candour and hopefully will be posted as soon as possible.

While waiting over the Christmas holiday, I realized that because M4 & M5 were merged, I was going to be one short of the ten we agreed upon.

If it is permissible, I have pieced together a new point that I will give at last, calling it M10. Can we change M6 to M5, M7 to M6, M8 to M7, M9 to M8, and M10 to M9?

Adding at the end a new M10 - A Great Hearing Problem
The Scripture reference for M10 will be Hebrews 2:1

Please let me know if this is acceptable or not.

^^^ I think it is a good idea but following the rules of the discuss, the other party party should consent before any changes can be made. We await Image and Rhymey on the above suggestion by Miwerds.

Mark Miwerds: Thank you, Image123 for posting the Presentation R5. A draft of the Rebuttal has been emailed to Candour and hopefully will be posted as soon as possible.

While waiting over the Christmas holiday, I realized that because M4 & M5 were merged, I was going to be one short of the ten we agreed upon.

If it is permissible, I have pieced together a new point that I will give at last, calling it M10. Can we change M6 to M5, M7 to M6, M8 to M7, M9 to M8, and M10 to M9?

Adding at the end a new M10 - A Great Hearing Problem
The Scripture reference for M10 will be Hebrews 2:1

Please let me know if this is acceptable or not.

Of course, accepted.

Hello everyone.

Our response will be coming in late as i'm having some challenges with my connections.

Will hopefully get it rectified before end of tommorow.

Pls bear with Mark and I.