thorpido:
It is skewed.I agree people do change and there are people who stop doing things they were used to doing.You can never know everything about a person during courtship but one can know enough if you pay attention.
Some men are traditional men and they are not willing to change that.It will be hard for such women who marry such men.

True, if only we can all pay attention to details during courtship, so many major issues will be averted later.

Kimoni:


True, if only we can all pay attention to details during courtship, so many major issues will be averted later.

No amount of concentration on nitty-gritty during courtship will subvert eventuality if people still foolishly use hope/faith when making life changing decisions

I don't think 'balance' is much different from 'equalist' in the end.

Don't wait till you 'sense' your wife is overdoing it - check in regularly. Most men would have experienced occasions where you're expected to have realised something but haven't.

I agree natural preference and ability should govern most tasks, but not to the extent it overburdens one party over the other. The goal is the same - upkeep of the home and both should give all that is required to achieve that goal. Keep talking about it and don't be too dogmatic on one way or the other (if you can help it).

TV01:

Ok, we'll give her the benefit of the doubt. The fact remains that she is juggling a number of "jobs" along with motherhood. Without doing what the writer of the article might have done - project onto her situation - lets look at things;

Both husband and wife work as well as raise kids - "if we agree" that raising the kids and keeping the maritla bond strong is a priority, then it stands to reason that she may have to think about sacrificing some of her "multiple career aspirations" to make this happen.

Her husband is also a lawyer. How much is their combined income (all pursuits?), how much do they actually need to live comfortably as opossed to straining to attain level or not thinking of sacrificing personal desires for the long-term interest of the whole. ApexTitan is right if "we agree"

TV, pls allow me and my questions. I have not eaten this morning.

Are you advocating that a woman who thinks she is taking up too much should relieve herself of some others duties/jobs/pleasures to give her more time for the home? If this is it, don't you think she will be a very unfulfilled and dissatisfied wife/mother? If she is not happy, can she give what doesn't have?
In Carrin's case, the husband as was said to be cherry picking the "leisure" jobs around the house even when Carrin is contributing a substantial part of the finances.

So the first point I'd make is that the priorities of the couple drive a lot of the dynamic

And this brings us to todays reality for most - the need for a dual income. I'll say this to start, yes, womens earnings - or economic empowerment - are on the rise, and they are making increasing contribution to household finances. However, the fact remains, that in the vast majority of cases men are still the major contributors or sole breadwinners where there is just the one.

Agree but also, the ratio of women taking up bigger chunks of the financial expenses in the home is increasing by the day...

I don't believe the relative financial contributions should have any bearing on the dynamic in terms of headship - just like any other factor, age, looks, education etc. But in practice it may be hard for some to maintain that line, dependant on a number of factors. And obviously not all actually subsribe to the notion of headship in a biblical sense.
TV

Agree with this. Biblically, headship shouldn't be tied to provision, but in reality and as humans, we know it becomes increasing difficult for a woman to submit to a man who neither provides(or provides little) in the home and still think he shouldn't be do chores

jaybee3:

No amount of concentration on nitty-gritty during courtship will subvert eventuality if people still foolishly use hope/faith when making life changing decisions

Jaybee, this single sentence carries too much weight biko. Pls come down to my primary school level

Kimoni:


Pick, apex una don come o (netotse, pls don't join them abeg)

Bet seriously guys, I would only be worried if that article was written by Carrin herself but it isn't. It was written by a writer who drew up his conclusions about her life and you know how writers are. They earn money from writing for a reason. Pls don't be distracted from the main issue because of that.

**edited** she is first and foremost a mother to her kids...

So Pickabeau1 and apextitan - ur thoughts pls

Ah, the issue that the edited line in your post addressed in Carrin's story is what drew my attention. The fact that she - or maybe it was the writer - identified immediately with her vocations as a yoga practitioner, a writer and only later, as though as an after thought, as a mother seemed improper to me.

Regarding this matter of helping around the house I think a clear understanding of what roles each partner plays combined with reasonable expectations will bring about a harmonious solution for married couples. 

There is this growing push for men to be more involved in household chores and from a distance it's all fair and reasonable. It is on closer observation where I find that the reason for this push is predicated on the idea that the partners in marriage are co-equals and that their roles are  androgynous in nature. I think it's this type of outlook that sets the stage for many kinds of domestic problems.

One of the attributes of the husband is that he is the provider and though modern times have compelled women to play this role to varying degrees I will not go into marriage with the expectation of the woman's (financial) contribution. Ergo where the woman is complaining that she is overwhelmed by household chores because she trying to make ends meet I see it as a failure on the part of the man. 

Having said that, as an individual I personally do not shy away from chores. I am the type that derives a certain pleasure in seeing my personal environment and things clean and well placed so doing what it takes to make them so is not a problem for me.

TV01:
Regards chores, I don't take that approach of tasks to be divvied up. And I’d also wonder at an equalist approach. I have a more expansive view - effort, preferences, strengths, contribution, convenience and balance.

There is nothing in the home - bar one or two things - that I cannot do. It's a matter of responsibility & often necessity. Commanding means being competent as well. Which soldier is there that will really respect a general with no battle experience?

My wife isn't feeling heavy lifting, or jobs too dirty for anything more than a pair of kitchen gloves . I do all the heavy stuff. But the heavy stuff is not as frequent as the day to day lighter stuff. So typically I'm pitching in - in a nutshell we will both tend to be doing one of the numerous things that need attending to. Balance & effort

My wife likes loading - the expensive machine she made me buy - and folding. I find hanging very calming ! As able, we tend to do this jointly. Preferences, strengths.

I appreciate the "busy life" aspect of Carrin' story - as that can be the case with just one job each and a few children.

If I sense my wife is tired or overdoing it, I simply tell her to carry it over, or take it over myself. Overall I'm stronger, so in a relative sense probably do more. Contribution & balance.

It’s not “chores”, it’s managing my household and ensuring everyone is well and everything is in order.
TV

TV, I strongly suspect Carrin's husband is going to write something like this if he is asked about the chores he does at home. The bolded makes me think so. Remember Carrin prides herself at being able to do so much at once and doesn't complain, but in reality, she is overworked and admits it to herself a few times. I dare say many women are like that by nature..

jaybee3:


No amount of concentration on nitty-gritty during courtship will subvert eventuality if people still foolishly use hope/faith when making life changing decisions

Word!

Kimoni:


Jaybee, this single sentence carries too much weight biko. Pls come down to my primary school level

You joker

Got my mail?

ApexTitan:


Ah, the issue that the edited line in your post addressed in Carrin's story is what drew my attention. The fact that she - or maybe it was the writer - identified immediately with her vocations as a yoga practitioner, a writer and only later, as though as an after thought, as a mother seemed improper to me.

Regarding this matter of helping around the house I think a clear understanding of what roles each partner plays combined with reasonable expectations will bring about a harmonious solution for married couples. 

There is this growing push for men to be more involved in household chores and from a distance it's all fair and reasonable. It is on closer observation where I find that the reason for this push is predicated on the idea that the partners in marriage are co-equals and that their roles are  androgynous in nature. I think it's this type of outlook that sets the stage for many kinds of domestic problems.

One of the attributes of the husband is that he is the provider and though modern times have compelled women to play this role to varying degrees I will not go into marriage with the expectation of the woman's (financial) contribution. Ergo where the woman is complaining that she is overwhelmed by household chores because she trying to make ends meet I see it as a failure on the part of the man. 

Having said that, as an individual I personally do not shy away from chores. I am the type that derives a certain pleasure in seeing my personal environment and things clean and well placed so doing what it takes to make them so is not a problem for me.

Pls trust me, this is not driven by the equality push. Naaaaaa

Asides from the fact that I have observed this trend for a long time, NL made me realise it is eating deeper into our boys/men. Some time ago, a thread went on front page about men being full providers. Nearly every guy on that thread was mad, really mad at the idea of the wife not contributing financially in the home. Like who wants a liability, they all said. I remember only one guy named Toks, was unapologetically in support of full provision. Infact, I think I had to call Pickabeau to that thread.

Then I saw another thread concerning men and housework, or this recent thread on men marrying educated ladies - and again, the overwhelming response is that most guys are not prone to doing house chores when the woman is available, and most men will also not like to marry a more educated lady than themselves because their don't want their headship challenged in any way.

I sense a disconnect between these two things. Men now agree a woman must provide but still think she should be fully in charge of running the home and also want to retain headship. If this thought is not curbed, I foresee a lot of future problems in the home because one cannot eat his cake and still have it. Something must give for something like our people say.

I perfectly agree with every other thing in your post especially the bolded. I strongly suspect Jaybee and raumdeuer will punch me in the face for it sha but the statement sweet me for belle I no go lie

jaybee3:


You joker

Got my mail?

Lol...just saw it now. Thanks

Which do you think is better - the first one or second one

Kimoni:


Lol...just saw it now. Thanks

Which do you think is better - the first one or second one

I think the formatting is the only question mark but then again it's really inconsequential in the grand scheme of things

I've left you in good hands

Kimoni:
TV, pls allow me and my questions. I have not eaten this morning.

We Spartans don't do brekkie !

Kimoni:
Are you advocating that a woman who thinks she is taking up too much should relieve herself of some others duties/jobs/pleasures to give her more time for the home? If this is it, don't you think she will be a very unfulfilled and dissatisfied wife/mother? If she is not happy, can she give what doesn't have?

I don't want to overly scrutinise Carrins situation, merely use it as something to pivot off. If we agree that the marital bond and children are priority, then if either spouse has a number of interests that are unbalancing the cart or leading to the 2 main priorities not being given the right focus, then yes, something has to give.

Glad I spoke about happiness in an earlier unrelated post. Necessary sacrifice for the well-being of your family should bring you satisfaction and fullfilment. Marriage and family are not first and foremeost about ensuring "happiness" for one individual or a vehicle for pursing selfish desires.

Like I mentioned in that "happy" post. I don't strive primarily to make or keep my wife happy. The expectation/understanding is that building our home and lives together is where that happiness comes from

Kimoni:
In Carrin's case, the husband as was said to be cherry picking the "leisure" jobs around the house even when Carrin is contributing a substantial part of the finances.

If that is the case, there may be some imbalance, but it could be Carrin simply wanting it all? But as noted we can't properly parse Carrins situation, best to illustrate our own models. I think I've outlined my thoughts.

Kimoni:
Agree but also, the ratio of women taking up bigger chunks of the financial expenses in the home is increasing by the day...

There are lots of reasons for this - a whole new thread - and many may well be happy about it. Whatever the case, my primary motivation is to ensure the integrity of marriage and families.

Kimoni:
Agree with this. Biblically, headship shouldn't be tied to provision, but in reality and as humans, we know it becomes increasing difficult for a woman to submit to a man who neither provides(or provides little) in the home and still think he shouldn't be do chores

Agreed, hence I how I stated it. But the truth is, women do not really build respect or necessarily maintain attraction for men on the basis of them doing chores in the absence of the more masculine characteristics.

I maintain - something I again stated earlier - that where possible men should strive to be able to provide 100%. Failing that, still be the main breadwinner. Not necessarily for outliers - if you are both earning loads, it may be a relatively minor issue. But even 100% provision does not mean failing to engage domestically.


TV

im still trying to get what the issue is.. Kimoni?

^^ Women are overworked by being expected to drop cash and do all/most of the housework.

It's not fair.

Kimoni:
TV, I strongly suspect Carrin's husband is going to write something like this if he is asked about the chores he does at home. The bolded makes me think so. Remember Carrin prides herself at being able to do so much at once and doesn't complain, but in reality, she is overworked and admits it to herself a few times. I dare say many women are like that by nature..

The husbands perspective may be completely different - and honest. Carrins "pride" and attendant activity may be entirely of her own making. They can and should discuss this,but again it depends what each of them and both together see as priority.

debosky:
I don't think 'balance' is much different from 'equalist' in the end.

I suppose that depends on usage and context doesn't it.

debosky:
Don't wait till you 'sense' your wife is overdoing it - check in regularly. Most men would have experienced occasions where you're expected to have realised something but haven't.

And you "check-in" and she insists everything is fine? Take cues, have a sense and check in. But does the wife not have agency? If she's running low or needs you to step in, she can't say? Like women will simply work themselves to the bone unless forcibly stopped ! And I'm not a mind reader, if theres something that needs to be discussed - best raise it.

debosky:
I agree natural preference and ability should govern most tasks, but not to the extent it overburdens one party over the other. The goal is the same - upkeep of the home and both should give all that is required to achieve that goal. Keep talking about it and don't be too dogmatic on one way or the other (if you can help it).

Agreed - noting that there are sometimes situations where one party is of a necessity over-burdened. I'm not sure that every or any instance means someone has to be disillusioned or unhappy. There may be times where it's a slog with little respite - deal with it.


TV

debosky:
^^ Women are overworked by being expected to drop cash and do all/most of the housework.

It's not fair.

Lmao! Deborah,o ju e re?? I sight you oo!!!

TV01:

And you "check-in" and she insists everything is fine? Take cues, have a sense and check in. But does the wife not have agency? If she's running low or needs you to step in, she can't say? Like women will simply work themselves to the bone unless forcibly stopped ! And I'm not a mind reader, if theres something that needs to be discussed - best raise it.

Heh. . .sometimes the asking is enough to 'relieve' the burden in my experience. The 'burden' often is from a sense of not being appreciated and not even the task itself. 'I'm doing all this and this man doesn't even show appreciation/care'.

I do agree men are not mind readers but I'm sure you've experienced instances where you were expected to 'know' something but didn't. The only solution I've come up with is ask if in doubt, and when not in doubt sef, else one risks being branded insensitive/unaware

Idowuogbo:

Lmao! Deborah,o ju e re?? I sight you oo!!!

Badosky mi onibadi aran. I sight you too jare. How bodi?

debosky:
^^ Women are overworked by being expected to drop cash and do all/most of the housework.

It's not fair.

how did our mothers cope?
i am extremely tired of the complaints of the 21st century wives.

ask them to stay at home and they would complain that they are being marginalised.
ask them to work 9-5 and they would still complain they do all the work.

debosky:
Heh. . .sometimes the asking is enough to 'relieve' the burden in my experience. The 'burden' often is from a sense of not being appreciated and not even the task itself. 'I'm doing all this and this man doesn't even show appreciation/care'.

Like we dont always ask? - "everything ok loff/darlin, sweerie" . Compliment them on the minutest stylistic detail, and testify how scrumptious their burnt offerings are . I learnt not to pander a long time ago. Pander enough and there's a chance you'll get taken for granted.

debosky:
I do agree men are not mind readers but I'm sure you've experienced instances where you were expected to 'know' something but didn't. The only solution I've come up with is ask if in doubt, and when not in doubt sef, else one risks being branded insensitive/unaware

I sold myself on the basis of my caveman allure


TV - the strong, silent type.

TV01:

Like we dont always ask? - "everything ok loff/darlin, sweerie" . Compliment them on the minutest stylistic detail, and testify how scrumptious their burnt offerings are . I learnt not to pander a long time ago. Pander enough and there's a chance you'll get taken for granted.

Conclusion: Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I sold myself on the basis of my caveman allure
TV - the strong, silent type.

Heh. . .I trust that's still working. I often get told I should've 'learned' a few things by now.

jaybee3:


I think the formatting is the only question mark but then again it's really inconsequential in the grand scheme of things

I've left you in good hands

Thanks

Kimoni:


Thanks

UWC

debosky:


Badosky mi onibadi aran. I sight you too jare. How bodi?

Lolz...body dey kampe! No shaking.

TV, I am cool with your conclusion. Pls help preach the word!

But just in case he cannot provide like he wants to or should do, he should also compromise generously on the house chores.

debosky:
^^ Women are overworked by being expected to drop cash and do all/most of the housework.

It's not fair.

Thank you for kindly taking the time to explain to Pickabeau.
Pick, you get it now?

Balance and equality - do these two words means the same in the home/marriage context? I don't think so.

My simple twisted layman's definition - equality is like sharing everything (finances et al.) in a 50:50 ratio eg we share the bills equally, contribute to projects equally, divide house chores equally etc Trying to find a balance is trying to ensure that whatever part of the job you are taking up, you are not taking up more portion in total than the other party. Everything do not have to be equally divided in arriving at a balanced, unskewed point. This is me thinking aloud oo

coogar:


how did our mothers cope?
i am extremely tired of the complaints of the 21st century wives.

ask them to stay at home and they would complain that they are being marginalised.
ask them to work 9-5 and they would still complain they do all the work.

Coogar, you sound like you are truly tired and angry. I don't even know how to respond to this
Lemme give you some time to calm down

Okay, how mothers coped because they were not expected/mandated like we do now to contribute financially to the running of the home. Even if they were in any minor or major business/career, the income was spent strictly at their discretion. I can't remember asking my mother for my school fees or giving her the NEPA bills, it went straight to my dad. But I remember going to her for any money that involved school excursion, cultural day, send forth party, end of the year party and all other miscellaneous expenses. I didn't even have the liver to go to my dad for such things but clearly, that ain't the case anymore. That's the difference Coogar. Things have changed significantly on that level but not so much in the home

Kimoni:
TV, I am cool with your conclusion. Pls help preach the word!

But just in case he cannot provide like he wants to or should do, he should also compromise generously on the house chores.

What do you advocate the wife's salary be used for if he already provides extra resource for all the essential house chores

Should a marriage be viewed from a competition view point?

jaybee3:


What do you advocate the wife's salary be used for if he already provides extra resource for all the essential house chores

Should a marriage be viewed from a competition view point?

No Jaybee, it's not and shouldn't ever be about competition. Competition is more like we are trying to outdo each other or trying to prove who is better. Not at all.

Again, all this stems from my observation (past and present) - a guy wants someone he can share the bills with (cool) but he doesn't think he should take up more house chores (not cool), and he doesn't want the headship compromised in any way (will that work?).

As per what the woman uses her money for - honestly, I don't think a man should be concerned about that. He should just provide the basics and if she needs to add value to anything, let her do so as she deems fit. A simple example is the school fees/miscellaneous money I gave above.
There was this thread about a lady who wanted to further her studies and also take some prof. exams but she was maintaining a joint account with her husband and he wasn't favorably disposed to it. He would rather used the joint account funds for some white elephant projects and when she insisted, the issues started causing friction in the home and was soon spreading to other areas in the home (she was earning much more than her hubby in this particular case and felt should should be given some freedom to utilize her income). He also started accusing her of not submitting to him. So I think a man should strive to provide the basics and hopefully, his good wife will know how to cover up her man's unclothedness

Kimoni:
No Jaybee, it's not and shouldn't ever be about competition. Competition is more like we are trying to outdo each other or trying to prove who is better. Not at all.

Competition can certainly be unhealthy. But it's not only competition - an equalist mindset can do harm as well. They have the first child, the mother takes a year off, perhaps her career suffers because of it.

They have the second, she insists he takes paternity so she can go straight back to work. Afterall, her career is equally important - and she took the hit last time?

Kimoni:
Again, all this stems from my observation (past and present) - a guy wants someone he can share the bills with (cool) but he doesn't think he should take up more house chores (not cool), and he doesn't want the headship compromised in any way (will that work?).

So, some men have raised expectations about a womans financial contribution? But expects to not do anything - or more than if say she was a housewife - domestically?

I don't think there are men with that mindset here or preaching that. In as much as they exist, women should be mindful of marrying them. The flip side of that coin is women who think marriage is about wealth redistribution or a vehicle for them to actualise their selfish dreams. So men need to be wary as well.

Plus, biblical headship is not re-negotiated based on a wife financial contribution - otherwise she could well be head of the home if her income is greater. Again, be wary and marry accordingly.

Kimoni:
As per what the woman uses her money for - honestly, I don't think a man should be concerned about that. He should just provide the basics and if she needs to add value to anything, let her do so as she deems fit. A simple example is the school fees/miscellaneous money I gave above.

As commander I am concerned about everything . If the two main priorities are satisfied and there is additional income generated by the wife, less a reasonable amount for pin money, it should also be spent on the family' behalf. Be that charity, extended family, luxury items, or long-term investments.

Kimoni:
There was this thread about a lady who wanted to further her studies and also take some prof. exams but she was maintaining a joint account with her husband and he wasn't favorably disposed to it. He would rather used the joint account funds for some white elephant projects and when she insisted, the issues started causing friction in the home and was soon spreading to other areas in the home (she was earning much more than her hubby in this particular case and felt should should be given some freedom to utilize her income). He also started accusing her of not submitting to him. So I think a man should strive to provide the basics and hopefully, his good wife will know how to cover up her man's unclothedness

These are issues of immaturity, lack of understanding or selfishness of the individuals within marriage. Foundation, foundation, foundation. Marry right and marry well and this kind of thing will rarely crop up. A woman would marry a man without him having articualted his vision for his marriage and home?

And there was a comment about marrying in "hope/faith". Not sure baout hope, but I married in faith. Faith demanded I conduct myself in a certain way, apply clear biblical principles, submit myself to my family and be humble before God. Faith is not blind.


TV

Kimoni:


No Jaybee, it's not and shouldn't ever be about competition. Competition is more like we are trying to outdo each other or trying to prove who is better. Not at all.

Again, all this stems from my observation (past and present) - a guy wants someone he can share the bills with (cool) but he doesn't think he should take up more house chores (not cool), and he doesn't want the headship compromised in any way (will that work?).

As per what the woman uses her money for - honestly, I don't think a man should be concerned about that. He should just provide the basics and if she needs to add value to anything, let her do so as she deems fit. A simple example is the school fees/miscellaneous money I gave above.
There was this thread about a lady who wanted to further her studies and also take some prof. exams but she was maintaining a joint account with her husband and he wasn't favorably disposed to it. He would rather used the joint account funds for some white elephant projects and when she insisted, the issues started causing friction in the home and was soon spreading to other areas in the home (she was earning much more than her hubby in this particular case and felt should should be given some freedom to utilize her income). He also started accusing her of not submitting to him. So I think a man should strive to provide the basics and hopefully, his good wife will know how to cover up her man's unclothedness

I don't think men go into marriages because they are looking for someone to share the financial burden.

Heck, the union obviously starts with just the two people thereby making it a continuation of the dating/courtship phase.
The curve ball usually gets thrown in once they start procreating hence providing an unpredictable financial scenario whereby projections may not work in tandem with reality on ground hence the somewhat necessity to seek financial support from the one person that has equal stake in the success of the union.

It's just very dangerous not taking into account the real possibility of the woman easily being the biggest earner in the family and thus creating unnecessary stress and invented problems if the man according to you should always be the provider of basics. As you can imagine such scenario will bring unhealthy competition, hatred and distrust into the relationship.

debosky:
^^ Women are overworked by being expected to drop cash and do all/most of the housework.

It's not fair.

Yes.. I get that

But we have tech to help - washing, drying, hoovers

The only chore that is mostly exclusive to women nowadays is the cooking and we have DIY foods

I am still waiting to see which crises is being talked up by Kimoni

If this was 30 years ago.. I will see but we have more inclusion in the home front