Image123:
i want to keep it private please, thanks. i simply liked and learnt something from that part. You're overreacting i think.

Curiosity is not overreacting
It is just a strong desire to know or learn something, just like you've said you liked and learned
I think the overreacting shoe is on the other foot, not mine

Take, I'll now have to delete my addy then

Image123:

I thought Jesus prayed for all His disciples?

He said a special prayer for Peter. Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

BabaGnoni:

oic again, as I thought you did know...

It is very similar to what happened to Pharaoh.
Both minds have already been made up
there is no point wasting time and effort on either anymore,
as they both were hellbent (i.e. both were determined to achieve at all costs what they've set their minds on to do)

The answers lie in the following verses:

But I will make Pharaoh's heart stubborn so I can multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in the land of Egypt.
- Exodus 7:3 NLT

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and just as the LORD had predicted to Moses, Pharaoh refused to listen.
- Exodus 9:12 NLT

23He replied, “One of you who has just eaten from this bowl with me will betray me.
24For the Son of Man must die, as the Scriptures declared long ago.
But how terrible it will be for the one who betrays him.
It would be far better for that man if he had never been born!”
25Judas, the one who would betray him, also asked, “Rabbi, am I the one?”
And Jesus told him, “You have said it.”
- Matthew 26:23-25 NLT

When Judas had eaten the bread, Satan entered into him.
Then Jesus told him,
"Hurry and do what you're going to do."
- John 13:27 NLT

Judas like Pharaoh, can be compared with wet sponges...
Wet sponges that want to dry out the water keeping them wet, which eventually ends to getting hardened up
but are kept from drying up and hardening
by God keeping them wet through continually pouring water on the sponges
The moment God cuts off the stream of water pouring on them,
the sponges in a matter of time will dry out, harden up and be brittle

Have you ever tried pottery,
where you put the clay on the pottery wheel to make a vase
The clump of clay is always resisting you shaping it into the vase
The clump of clay will fall off the pottery wheel unfinished and damaged, the moment you let go your hands in molding it
Keep your hands on it until the end, you'll have a beautiful vase

Another analogy is this:
Kid A and kid B, are sizing each other up, breathing into each one's face, each raring for a fight
Right at the nick of time, you step in to prevent the fight starting
but kid B, will not have none of that as adrenalin and testosterone is pumping high
Kid B is spoiling for the fight, despite all appeal or effort to prevent it
Everyone knows kid B is no match for Kid A, as kid A will beat the living day lights out of kid B
but kid B does NOT agree nor wants to know (i.e. kid B is hellbent, determined to fight at all costs, not matter what)
In effect, kid B's heart is hardening for/to fight
You harden kid B's heart, the moment you step back and allow kid B to have the fight, he's so much set his heart on

That's how Pharaoh's heart got hardened (i.e. the restraining, like in the case of kid B, was let off)
and similar happened to Judas, he was let go (i.e. as he was a lost cause, who couldn't be changed for the better)

It is better we stop this because I don't want to sound like an unbeliever, whats the sense in hardening some's heart and then punish him and his people for disobedient?

BabaGnoni:

I can't exactly see your point.
I think stating the point clearly, in detail, and leaving no room for confusion or doubt what the point is would be a good idea.
So why would Judas commit suicide then, if Peter disappointed everybody just like him but he didn't commit suicide despite

i guess we'll have to ask somebody why in eternity.

Tallesty1: He said a special prayer for Peter. Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

All His prayers were special i guess, i concur they're not all recorded though.

Like every natural man would think, Peter thought and asked Christ what their (the twelve plus judas) gain would be for leaving everything behind to follow Christ- Christ responded by saying-

Mat 19:28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Is this statement subject to change?

Tallesty1:
It is better we stop this because I don't want to sound like an unbeliever,
whats the sense in hardening some's heart and then punish him and his people for disobedient?

Pharaoh was hardening his heart already but God was restraining him from doing it

so when God eventually succumbed to Pharaoh's strong desire to harden his heart,
it means that by virtue of God withdrawing his hand on Pharaoh's heart, He in effect indirectly hardened it.

Like the the two kids analogy, others will say, you made them fight, when you stopped separating them and allowed the fight to go on
whereas all along Kid B had been raring to have the fight a lot more earlier before the time the fight eventually took place.

Nothing to do with punishing him or his people sir,
Pharaoh had all along long time wanted to go that route but God was holding it back

shdemidemi: Like every natural man would think, Peter thought and asked Christ what their (the twelve plus judas) gain would be for leaving everything behind to follow Christ- Christ responded by saying-

Mat 19:18And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Is this statement subject to change?

^^^
Shouldn't that be Matt 19:28?

@babagnoni

I beg to differ a bit with the above.

Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

God used pharaoh as a tool that will enable His people to glorify Him. He created pharaoh for that sole purpose, God hardened his mind even when he almost gave in.

BabaGnoni:

^^^
Shouldn't that be Matt 19:28?

Yes it is... Will edit it straight away. Thanks

shdemidemi: @babagnoni

I beg to differ a bit with the above.

Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

God used pharaoh as a tool that will enable His people to glorify Him.
He created pharaoh for that sole purpose, God hardened his mind even when he almost gave in.

I agree with you on the above, I wasn't saying otherwise
The opportunity did not arise or warrant me mentioning that God used Pharaoh as a tool

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power:
for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
- Rev 4:11 KJ Bible

God created Pharaoh, just as He did Judas.

"... almost gave in"? pull the other leg
Pharaoh had no intention of giving in, he was only playing for time.
God had had enough of his self amusement game, so He pulled the rug from under him

I bet you know this too:
How on earth is one going to build up a nation of nearly 2.5 - 4M
and overnight sneak them into Canaan to claim the land
without rousing the suspicions of the natives

Egypt, the superpower of that time was used, just as the leader Pharaoh was, to shield or cover Israel until the appointed time

Image123:

I thought Jesus prayed for all His disciples?

Tallesty1: He said a special prayer for Peter.
Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Image123:

All His prayers were special i guess, i concur they're not all recorded though.

shdemidemi: Like every natural man would think, Peter thought and asked Christ what their (the twelve plus judas) gain would be for leaving everything behind to follow Christ- Christ responded by saying-

Mat 19:28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Is this statement subject to change?

Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me. I will never turn away anyone who comes to me
- John 6:37 GOD'S WORD® Translation

25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me,
26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand
- John 10:25-29 NIV

"I pray for them. I'm not praying for the world but for those you gave me, because they are yours.
- John 17:9 GOD'S WORD® Translation

"Father, I want those you have given to me to be with me, to be where I am.
I want them to see my glory, which you gave me because you loved me before the world was made.
- John 17:24 GOD'S WORD® Translation

Matt 19:28, is subject to change, concerning Judas
Judas wasn't a sheep that listened to the Voice
Everyone knows Judas was of the world
Judas wasn't given
Maybe shdemidemi can share an alternate view on this

^^^ but judas was hand picked by Jesus Himself, did He make a mistake picking judas?

Judas was not just anyone who listened, believed and followed Christ, he was a special follower- an apostle and a disciple of Jesus Christ. He also had a special office, he was responsible for keeping money.

How then can we call him a part of the world bro?

shdemidemi:

^^^ but judas was hand picked by Jesus Himself, did He make a mistake picking judas?

Judas was not just anyone who listened, believed and followed Christ, he was a special follower- an apostle and a disciple of Jesus Christ. He also had a special office, he was responsible for keeping money.

How then can we call him a part of the world bro?

God hand-picked Pharaoh too, among others similar
Pharaoh was a deliberate choice, it wasn't just happenstance that it happened.
It wasn't a coincidence that Pharaoh was picked

Then the LORD said to Abram,
"You can be sure that your descendants will be strangers in a foreign land, where they will be oppressed as slaves for 400 years"
- Genesis 15:13 NLT

Jesus, God, makes no mistakes.

Exactly what I meant, which is Judas was a worldly individual
- He was more concerned with material values or things rather than a spiritual existence.

BabaGnoni:

God hand-picked Pharaoh too, among others similar
Pharaoh was a deliberate choice, it wasn't just happenstance that it happened.
It wasn't a coincidence that Pharaoh was picked

Then the LORD said to Abram,
"You can be sure that your descendants will be strangers in a foreign land, where they will be oppressed as slaves for 400 years"
- Genesis 15:13 NLT

Jesus, God, makes no mistakes.

Exactly what I meant, which is Judas was a worldly individual
- He was more concerned with material values or things rather than a spiritual existence.

God handpicked Pharaoh for destruction so His people (israelites) can give Him glory. Pharaoh was never a part of God, God was only concerned about His people and their relationship with Him.

As for Judas, he was a jew- not only was he a part of God's people by birth through flesh, he also became a part of God's people through Christ by the Spirit.

He can't possibly be called a part of the world... God needed Judas, Jesus needed Judas and more importantly you and I needed judas .

shdemidemi:

God handpicked Pharaoh for destruction so His people (israelites) can give Him glory.
Pharaoh was never a part of God, God was only concerned about His people and their relationship with Him.

As for Judas, he was a jew- not only was he a part of God's people by birth through flesh, he also became a part of God's people through Christ by the Spirit.

He can't possibly be called a part of the world... God needed Judas, Jesus needed Judas and more importantly you and I needed judas .

I guess you're done bro, as I was waiting for you to finish typing and publishing

By the way bro, I didn't read your comment or take on the below:

- reproduced -

"... almost gave in?" pull the other leg
Pharaoh had no intention of giving in, he was only playing for time.
God had had enough of his self amusement game, so He pulled the rug from under him

I bet you know this too:
How on earth is one going to build up a nation of nearly 2.5 - 4M
and overnight sneak them into Canaan to claim the land
without rousing the suspicions of the natives

Egypt, the superpower of that time was used, just as the leader Pharaoh was, to shield or cover Israel until the appointed time

- /reproduced -

You aren't that so much churched that you wouldn't know what a worldly person is

If it wasn't going to be Pharaoh, it will be someone else
If wasn't going to be Egypt, it will be another superpower in the region at that time
If not Judas, it'll be someone else
Did God not handpick King Saul?
It doesn't mean because one is picked one cant become or turn into a casualty

BabaGnoni:
"... almost gave in?" pull the other leg
Pharaoh had no intention of giving in, he was only playing for time.
God had had enough of his self amusement game, so He pulled the rug from under him

God knew The Israelites would be enslaved and He knew how long they will be there for. Everything in the mind of God played itself out and all the actors acted their part according to how God had planned it.

Could pharaoh have done otherwise? No. It was all God's plan even before pharaoh was born. The event of that day still serve as a memorial in the nation of Israel today. God took the glory and His people sang His praise as they left Egypt destroyed.

BabaGnoni:
You aren't that so much churched that you wouldn't know what a worldly person is

Jesus said the twelve disciples will be there to judge Israel ... Did He speak amiss?

BabaGnoni:
If it wasn't going to be Pharaoh, it will be someone else
If wasn't going to be Egypt, it will be another superpower in the region at that time
If not Judas, it'll be someone else
Did God not handpick King Saul?
It doesn't mean because one is picked one cant become or turn into a casualty

But these people were chosen for the job and they carried out thr ministry to the letter.... Or did they?

shdemidemi:

God knew The Israelites would be enslaved and He knew how long the will be there for.
Everything in the mind of God played itself out and all actors acted their part according to how God had planned it.

Could pharaoh have done otherwise? No.
It was all God's plan even before pharaoh was born.
The event of that dat still serve as a memorial in the Nate nation of Israel today.
God took the glory and His people sang His praise as they left Egypt destroyed.

Jesus said the twelve disciples will be there to judge Israel ... Did He speak amiss?

But these people were chosen for the job and they carried out thr ministry to the letter.... Or did they?

You're cracking me up bro - no offense
What's different in what I've so far all along said with yours?

I earlier said:
God hand-picked Pharaoh too, among others similar
Pharaoh was a deliberate choice, it wasn't just happenstance that it happened.
It wasn't a coincidence that Pharaoh was picked

and quoted this verse too:
Then the LORD said to Abram,
"You can be sure that your descendants will be strangers in a foreign land, where they will be oppressed as slaves for 400 years"
- Genesis 15:13 NLT

Pharaoh's heart was hardening but God was restraining it until when at the appointed time, He couldn't careless anymore
but the way you're turning this into, it's like you're making out that God was/is on an ego-trip
Nothing gets past Jesus or God
Does anyone think God did not know Adam and Eve would eat of the tree of knowledge of good & evil?
Same with Judas bro
After all God is omni- know everything at every time, omniscient

Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”
- John 6:70 ESV

.

BabaGnoni:

You're cracking me up bro - no offense
What's different in what I've so far all along said with yours?

I earlier said:
God hand-picked Pharaoh too, among others similar
Pharaoh was a deliberate choice, it wasn't just happenstance that it happened.
It wasn't a coincidence that Pharaoh was picked.

The picking of pharaoh is different from that of judas... Pharaoh was picked, not to be a son or a friend of God but an enemy raised from a part of the world that was already condemned. God was not the God of the Egyptians or pharaoh, He was the God of Israel.

Judas happen to be a part of God's people and also a part of the remnant who accepted Christ as the messiah.

Judas was not of the world but of God, on the other hand pharaoh was never a part of God.

BabaGnoni:
Pharaoh's heart was hardening but God was restraining i t until when at the appointed time, He couldn't careless anymore
but the way you're turning this into, it's like you're making out that God was/is on an ego-trip

Did God harden the man's heart? Yes

What then happened after they were liberated from the hands of pharaoh? They magnified and glorified their God. That was all God wanted from them, He wanted them to see Him and honour Him as their God.

BabaGnoni:
Nothing gets past Jesus or God
Does anyone think God did not know Adam and Eve would eat of the tree of knowledge of good & evil?
Same with Judas bro
After all God is omni- know everything at every time, omniscient

Of course God knew Adam and Eve will fall. He created man for that purpose, going by the angelic conflict which made God make man in the first place. Man will fall but God will show His love by forgiving man by His grace.

BabaGnoni:
Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”
- John 6:70 ESV.

Jesus used similar terms to describe Peter, when he said "get thee behind me, satan". Does that make Peter the satan? I don't think so. Neither does it make judas the satan but they were both influenced by satan to act the way they did.

Looking at it from an holistic view, even the devil obliviously carry out God's plan. If The devil had known, he wouldn't have disturbed Jesus atall but by the death of Jesus the world was redeemed from sin and the captivity of the devil and God's wrath.

shdemidemi:

The picking of pharaoh is different from that of judas...
Pharaoh was picked, not to be a son or a friend of God
but an enemy raised from a part of the world that was already condemned.
God was not the God of the Egyptians or pharaoh, He was the God of Israel.

Judas happen to be a part of God's people and also a part of the remnant who accepted Christ as the messiah.

Judas was not of the world but of God, on the other hand pharaoh was never a part of God.

Did God harden the man's heart? Yes

What then happened after they were liberated from the hands of pharaoh?
They magnified and glorified their God.
That was all God wanted from them, He wanted them to see Him and honour Him as their God.

Of course God knew Adam and Eve will fall. He created man for that purpose,
going by the angelic conflict which made God make man in the first place.
Man will fall but God will show His love by forgiving man by His grace.

Jesus used similar terms to describe Peter, when he said "get thee behind me, satan".
Does that make Peter the satan? I don't think so.
Neither does it make judas the satan but they were both influenced by satan to act the way they did.

Looking at it from an holistic view, even the devil obliviously carry out God's plan.
If The devil had known, he wouldn't have disturbed Jesus at all
but by the death of Jesus the world was redeemed from sin and the captivity of the devil and God's wrath.

Pharaoh, Egypt was selected because they would be reigning superpower of that region at the time
Pharaoh, just like Judas was a willing candidate, so he footed the bill

As for Judas been remnant or no remnant,
his is a matter like Uzzah: touch the Ark, get burnt
Judas was culpable of: "Do not touch My anointed ones, And do My prophets no harm."
Was he not?

OK "God knew Adam and Eve will fall. He created man for that purpose"
What is the substance behind what the purpose is all about?
Why were Adam and Eve created for the purpose to fall?
What is the "angelic conflict which made God make man in the first place." all about?
If "Man will fall" why, what is the idea behind continuing making man?
What is the rational and of course rational, as in meaning based on or in accordance with reason or logic,
behind "but God will show His love by forgiving man by His grace"
So is this all just about or for the sake of showing love through forgiveness and grace?

You keep saying Judas was not of the world
but Judas loved money so much now,
this hence bro, means he is a worldly man

From the moment you begged to differ up to now
have I said anything otherwise or different to what you've so far posted?

"They magnified and glorified their God.
That was all God wanted from them, He wanted them to see Him and honour Him as their God"
- Is that all? Is that what it was all about then? To see Him and honour Him as their God?
God must have been so much in need of a badly wanted ego stroke then

You fail to see that you're making out that God likes the idea of going on an ego trip
You also keep just dropping clichés here and there all over the thread.

Of course "Jesus used similar terms to describe Peter, when he said "get thee behind me, satan"
but He prayed for Peter but didn't bother same for Judas (i.e. as he was a lost cause)

It'll be interesting to see what your responses to those interrogative questions above will be

BabaGnoni:

Pharaoh, Egypt was selected because they would be reigning superpower of that region at the time
Pharaoh, just like Judas was a willing candidate, so he footed the bill

Reigning superpower does not make them a part of God, as far as God is concerned, they were doomed. God never knew them, on the other hand He knew judas. Can you spot any difference?

BabaGnoni:
OK "God knew Adam and Eve will fall. He created man for that purpose"
What is the substance behind what the purpose is all about?
Why were Adam and Eve created for the purpose to fall?
What is the "angelic conflict which made God make man in the first place." all about?
If "Man will fall" why, what is the idea behind continuing making man?
What is the rational and of course rational, as in meaning based on or in accordance with reason or logic,
behind "but God will show His love by forgiving man by His grace"
So is this all just about or for the sake of showing love through forgiveness and grace?

The angelic conflict was all about lucifer trying to usurp glory to himself. God condemned and judged him beyond forgiveness. The devil turned around to question God, saying if God was truly a God of love He wouldn't judge him as such.

God then decided to create man to show and exhibit and pour His love on them even when they don't deserve it.

BabaGnoni:
You keep saying Judas was not of the world
but Judas loved money so much now,
this hence bro, means he is a worldly man

It's impossible bro... For illustration sake, a Christian can like the world but he remains a Christian though a carnal Christian who needs to grow in God's eyes.

Loving money does not make a Christian an outcast, like I said earlier such Christian need a renewing of the mind by Gods word to grow. You might not like money but your downside might be greed, selfishness amongst many other things.

BabaGnoni:
"They magnified and glorified their God.
That was all God wanted from them, He wanted them to see Him and honour Him as their God"
- Is that all? Is that what it was all about then? To see Him and honour Him as their God?
God must have been so much in need of a badly wanted ego stroke then

You fail to see that you're making out that God likes the idea of going on an ego trip
You also keep just dropping clichés here and there all over the thread.

That's all God need from us... Call it ego trip, well, he deserves all the praise and glory He demands. He needs nothing more from us than praises and worship save that we preach The gospel of His son to the world.

BabaGnoni:
Of course "Jesus used similar terms to describe Peter, when he said "get thee behind me, satan"
but He prayed for Peter but didn't bother same for Judas (i.e. as he was a lost cause)

It'll be interesting to see what your responses to those interrogative questions above will be

Peter was needed to do a job even after the death and resurrection of Jesus. The life of Judas like John the Baptist ended after they had fulfilled their ministry.

My initial question was if Jesus did not mean what He said when He said judas and the remaining eleven will join Him to judge Israel?

^^^
Remove the front facing slash in the first [/quote]
and it should be alright
I am reading your submission
from what I've so far read, you don't want to agree that "...love of money is the root of all kinds of evil" applies to Judas sha

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil.
Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs
- 1 Timothy 6:10 NIV

^^

Does this mean if I like money as a Christian, I am hell bound?

shdemidemi: ^^

Does this mean if I like money as a Christian, I am hell bound?

You haven't removed the forward slash inside the first quote tag (i.e. leave out the slash inside [/quote] "They magnified and glorified their God...)
and your post should display correctly or should be alright

Why should one be hellbound, one will only be hellbound if one's love of money leads to committing evil now

I had earlier responded to you that:
Matt 19:28, is subject to change, concerning Judas
Judas wasn't a sheep that listened to the Voice
Everyone knows Judas was of the world
Judas wasn't given like the others were to Jesus.

These verses backs it up bro:

¹⁴Then one of the Twelve—the one called Judas Iscariot—went to the chief priests
¹⁵and asked, “What are you willing to give me if I deliver him over to you?”
So they counted out for him thirty pieces of silver.
¹⁶From then on Judas watched for an opportunity to hand him over.
- Matthew 26:14-16 NIV

³When Judas, who had betrayed him, realized that Jesus had been condemned to die, he was filled with remorse.
So he took the thirty pieces of silver back to the leading priests and the elders.
⁴“I have sinned,” he declared, “for I have betrayed an innocent man.”
“What do we care?” they retorted. “That’s your problem.”
- Matthew 27:3-4 NLT

⁹“My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given me, because they belong to you.
¹⁰All who are mine belong to you, and you have given them to me, so they bring me glory.
¹¹Now I am departing from the world; they are staying in this world, but I am coming to you.
Holy Father, you have given me your name;
now protect them by the power of your name so that they will be united just as we are.
¹²During my time here, I protected them by the power of the name you gave me.
I guarded them so that not one was lost, except the one headed for destruction, as the Scriptures foretold
- John 17:9-12 NLT

BabaGnoni:

Why should one be hellbound, one will only be hellbound if one's love of money leads to committing evil now

So, you think a Christian who commits evil today is hell bound, right?

BabaGnoni:
⁹“My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given me, because they belong to you.
¹⁰All who are mine belong to you, and you have given them to me, so they bring me glory.
¹¹Now I am departing from the world; they are staying in this world, but I am coming to you.
Holy Father, you have given me your name;
now protect them by the power of your name so that they will be united just as we are.
¹²During my time here, I protected them by the power of the name you gave me.
I guarded them so that not one was lost, except the one headed for destruction, as the Scriptures foretold
- John 17:9-12 NLT

The verse 12 of this chapter was not referring to judas atall but the son of perdition himself, the devil.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Be careful with the translations bro, some can be misleading.

We can actually draw an exact picture of what happened to Jesus from the life of Joseph. Like Jesus with twelve disciples, Joseph had twelve brothers. Like Joseph was betrayed by his brothers and sold, Jesus was also betrayed and sold. Like Joseph that went to prepare a place for his people, Jesus also went to prepare a place for us.

Joseph saw his brothers who betrayed him, he embraced them and told them how they thought it for evil but how God saw it as good. May be if Joseph had killed his brothers in Egypt, I might be inclined to accept that Jesus will also punish judas eternally.

shdemidemi:

So, you think a Christian who commits evil today is hell bound, right?

The verse 12 of this chapter was not referring to judas at all but the son of perdition himself, the devil.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Be careful with the translations bro, some can be misleading.

No, not a real Christian, as a real Christian won't commit evil.

So the devil too was given to Jesus to keep, right?

Aw, c'mon bro, this is not the part where you play the translation cards now

I bet these too are misleading:
Even my close friend, someone I trusted, one who shared my bread, has turned against me
- Psalms 41:9 NIV

"I am not saying these things to all of you; I know the ones I have chosen.
But this fulfills the Scripture that says,
'The one who eats my food has turned against me.'
- John 13:18 NLT

Where or when does all this end eh?
What of Caiaphas?
- He was a Jew too going by your line of reasoning

BabaGnoni:

So the devil too was given to Jesus to keep, right?

Aw, c'mon bro, this is not the part where you play the translation cards now

I bet these too are misleading:
Even my close friend, someone I trusted, one who shared my bread, has turned against me
- Psalms 41:9 NIV

"I am not saying these things to all of you; I know the ones I have chosen.
But this fulfills the Scripture that says,
'The one who eats my food has turned against me.'
- John 13:18 NLT

Where or when does all this end eh?
What of Caiaphas?
- He was a Jew too going by your line of reasoning

I think the two stories fit, almost like hands in gloves. If we must read the Old Testament with the eye of the new, I see Joseph as a shadow of Christ in that story.

He was betrayed by his family but he forgave knowing fully well that it was all God's doing.

I think caiaphas was a high priest, he was a Jew but judgement came upon the Jew when Jesus came. They had to accept Jesus to be on God's side and God's new programme (judas did that). The church is the present people of God, we are the spiritual Jew who worship in spirit and not by the flesh nor the letter.

shdemidemi: We can actually draw an exact picture of what happened to Jesus from the life of Joseph.
Like Jesus with twelve disciples, Joseph had twelve brothers.
Like Joseph was betrayed by his brothers and sold, Jesus was also betrayed and sold.
Like Joseph that went to prepare a place for his people, Jesus also went to prepare a place for us.

Joseph saw his brothers who betrayed him, he embraced them and told them how they thought it for evil but how God saw it as good. May be if Joseph had killed his brothers in Egypt, I might be inclined to accept that Jesus will also punish judas eternally.

The glaring difference in that picture is that:
Joseph was betrayed and sold but not killed
Jesus was betrayed and sold but killed
and as I earlier posted that picture was the beginning of the Genesis 15:13 prophecy told Abram

Then the LORD said to Abram,
"You can be sure that your descendants will be strangers in a foreign land, where they will be oppressed as slaves for 400 years"
- Genesis 15:13 NLT

and please don't try and pull the wool over our eyes
as Joseph had eleven brothers and not twelve brothers
Ah-ha. What you playing at, what you up to playing a stunt like that, eh?
One shouldn't be caught napping with you LOL
Get the facts and truth right bro

shdemidemi:

I think the two stories fit, almost like hands in gloves.
If we must read the Old Testament with the eye of the new, I see Joseph as a shadow of Christ in that story.

He was betrayed by his family but he forgave knowing fully well that it was all God's doing.

I think caiaphas was a high priest, he was a Jew but judgement came upon the Jew when Jesus came.
They had to accept Jesus to be on God's side and God's new programme (judas did that).
The church is the present people of God, we are the spiritual Jew who worship in spirit and not by the flesh nor the letter.

One word: Hallucination

BabaGnoni:

The glaring difference in that picture is that:
Joseph was betrayed and sold but not killed
Jesus was betrayed and sold but killed
and as I earlier posted that picture was the beginning of the Genesis 15:13 prophecy told Abram

Then the LORD said to Abram,
"You can be sure that your descendants will be strangers in a foreign land, where they will be oppressed as slaves for 400 years"
- Genesis 15:13 NLT

Bro, they had their stories and the story went on.. We are not looking at what they did or how they died but how we can do a Christ centered learning and teaching of the old.

The blood of Christ was also demonstrated when Israelites were told to put the blood of lambs on lintels and doors. We can't follow the story literally but see Christ and God's plan even from back then.

BabaGnoni:
and please don't try and pull the wool over our eyes
as Joseph had eleven brothers and not twelve brothers
What you up to with that, eh?
Get the facts and truth right bro

No, I wouldn't want to do that, my mistake. Jacob had 12 sons and 1 daughter, didn't he?