shdemidemi:

Bro, they had their stories and the story went on..
We are not looking at what they did or how they died but how we can do a Christ centered learning and teaching of the old.

The blood of Christ was also demonstrated when Israelites were told to put the blood of lambs on lintels and doors.
We can't follow the story literally but see Christ and God's plan even from back then.

No, I wouldn't want to do that, my mistake. Jacob had 12 sons and 1 daughter, didn't he?

You're doing an eisegesis and not an exegesis
with "how we can do a Christ centered learning and teaching of the old"
and that's why you mistook 11 for 12 brothers

The blood of lambs on lintels and doors of the Israelites in Goshen was to protect them from wrath of the Angel of Death that will pass through the land to strike down the Egyptians
Jesus is our Passover Lamb to protect whomsoever believes from the sting of death, which is sin and so in effect from the power of sin.

Sin was the item, sin was what God was all along set out to tackle and out rightly deal with.
When sin, in all it's might and glory fully runs it's course (i.e. there wouldn't be anything more left in sin to thrust out or inflict)
then God, will do the needful, step in etc etc and ultimately there will be sin no more

We all know that the wages of sin is death, right
but by the time, sin will be no more (i.e. Revelation 21:4), death would have gone past it's sell-by date
and so it ends up in the lake of fire

He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more,
neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore,
for the former things have passed away.”
- Revelation 21:4 ESV

BabaGnoni:

You're doing an eisegesis and not an exegesis
with "how we can do a Christ centered learning and teaching of the old"
and that's why you mistook 11 for 12 brothers

No... I am not, it's actually far from it. If you must understand the Old Testament, beyond the moral stories you might try to deduce, you Must see God/Christ in every story. Every story must point you back to God, every time you read a story that points to self and what self can do or achieve, know for certain that you are not studying right.

It isn't as if you have to accept but you must take note and give it a thought.

BabaGnoni:
The blood of lambs on lintels and doors of the Israelites in Goshen was to protect them from wrath of the Angel of Death that will pass through the land to strike down the Egyptians
Jesus is our Passover Lamb to protect whomsoever believes from the sting of death, which is sin and so in effect from the power of sin.

Bro, where ever you see sin, death is imminent. Like I said earlier the blood saved Israel from the spirit of death, the same way it saves you and I from death at the cross.

BabaGnoni:
Sin was the item, sin was what God was all along set out to tackle and out rightly deal with.
When sin, in all it's might and glory fully runs it's course (i.e. there wouldn't be anything more left in sin to thrust out or inflict)
then God, will do the needful, step in etc etc and ultimately there will be sin no more

I thought Jesus had already condemned sin and death in the flesh or did he?

BabaGnoni:
We all know that the wages of sin is death, right
but by the time, sin will be no more (i.e. Revelation 21:4), death would have gone past it's sell-by date
and so it ends up in the lake of fire

He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more,
neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore,
for the former things have passed away.”
- Revelation 21:4 ESV

The question is if this wage of sin which is death apply to anyone in Christ?

shdemidemi:

No... I am not, it's actually far from it.
If you must understand the Old Testament,
beyond the moral stories you might try to deduce, you Must see God/Christ in every story.

It isn't as if you have to accept but you must take note and give it a thought.

Bro, where ever you see sin, death is imminent.
Like I said earlier the blood saved Israel from the spirit of death, the same way it saves you and I from death at the cross.

I thought Jesus had already condemned sin and death in the flesh or did he?

The question is if this wage of sin which is death apply to anyone in Christ?

Bro show where in all my posts on this thread where I've denied Christ in every facet of the bible
Show me where I've denied that events in the OT is a shadow of the NT
I only pointed out to you that you're crossing lines over imaginary points (i.e. hallucinations you see as a shadow)
Joseph is a shadow of Jesus Christ, no doubt, and that as far as it ends
but now you are trying strenuously to incorporate Judas,
using a 12 disciples of Jesus with 11 brothers of Joseph picture,
to declare or make Judas righteous in the sight of God
(i.e. like he deserves a well-done-my-boy pat on the back from God)


"I thought Jesus had already condemned sin and death in the flesh or did he?" - shdemidemi
Yes you thought right bro, which is why I am repeating again myself below here:

Sin was the item, sin was what God was all along set out to tackle and out rightly deal with.
When sin, in all it's might and glory fully runs it's course (i.e. there wouldn't be anything more left in sin to thrust out or inflict)
then God, will do the needful, step in etc etc and ultimately there will be sin no more

Sin was the original reason, why Adam & Eve were created and left alone in Eden with the tree of the knowledge of good & evil.
Jesus on the cross at Calvary, has redeemed us from that power of sin and conquered death too.
We are (i.e. God now is) waiting for sin and evil to run it's full course

"where ever you see sin, death is imminent.
Like I said earlier the blood saved Israel from the spirit of death,
the same way it saves you and I from death at the cross" - shdemidemi

Show me bro where I've said otherwise to the above or anything contrary to what you've posted
I did say, sin is the transgression of the law (i.e. disobeying an expressly defined order is sin)
and death consequently is the payment for sin.

"The question is if this wage of sin which is death apply to anyone in Christ?" - shdemidemi

The simple & straight forward answer to that question is:
If anyone is truly in Christ as you've put forward,
then, that one is born from above
that one has already died
and that one will not partake in the second death

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:
old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new
- 2 Corinthians 5:17 KJ Bible

BabaGnoni:
"The question is if this wage of sin which is death apply to anyone in Christ?" - shdemidemi

The simple & straight forward answer to that question is:
If anyone is truly in Christ as you've put forward,
then, that one is born from above
that one has already died
and that one will not partake in the second death

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:
old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new
- 2 Corinthians 5:17 KJ Bible

What do you mean by being 'truly in Christ'?

shdemidemi:

What do you mean by being 'truly in Christ'?

Good question bro,
since the crux of your disagreement was over Judas (i.e. I think it is over Judas)
let's put what "truly in Christ" means in relation to Judas and beam the light on him
particularly, noting where he was fraternizing with the world to make the deduction(s). Shall we?

⁴You adulterers!a Don’t you realize that friendship with the world makes you an enemy of God?
I say it again: If you want to be a friend of the world, you make yourself an enemy of God.
⁵What do you think the Scriptures mean when they say that the spirit God has placed within us is filled with envy?
⁶But he gives us even more grace to stand against such evil desires. As the Scriptures say,
“God opposes the proud but favors the humble.”
⁷So humble yourselves before God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you
- James 4:4-7 NLT

"No one can serve two masters,
because either he will hate one and love the other, or be loyal to one and despise the other.
You cannot serve God and riches!"
- Matthew 6:24 ISV

"No one can serve two masters.
For you will hate one and love the other; you will be devoted to one and despise the other.
You cannot serve both God and money."
- Luke 16:13 NLT

Noted! You did not exactly answer my question though.

Now, who is truly in Christ by your standard?

shdemidemi: Noted! You did not exactly answer my question though.

Now, who is truly in Christ by your standard?

Good that you noted,
but I did somehow point out the direction for answer(s).
From those verses provided, deductive reasoning or logical deduction gives the answer(s)
and besides, my standard does not count
I never fall for that "by your standard" ploy
as my standard, even if it tries, wont be able to stand on its legs
Sorry bro, my standard doesn't have the chance of ice in hell

BabaGnoni:

Good that you noted,
but I did somehow point out the direction for answer(s).
From those verses provided, deductive reasoning or logical deduction gives the answer(s)
and besides, my standard does not count
I never fall for that "by your standard" ploy
as my standard, even if it tries, wont be able to stand on its legs
Sorry bro, my standard doesn't have the chance of ice in hell

May be I should make the question clearer... If judas isn't good, thus deserving to perish, who in the world is better than judas, are you?

shdemidemi:

May be I should make the question clearer... If judas isn't good thus deserving to perish, who in the world is better than judas, are you?

"Caiaphas was a high priest, he was a Jew but judgement came upon the Jew when Jesus came.
They had to accept Jesus to be on God's side and God's new programme (judas did that) "- shdemidemi

Maybe the air will be clearer when you tell how Judas is good
and thus doesn't deserve to perish
How, when and where Judas accepted to be on God's side
- Judas that fraternized with Caiaphas & Co.

as for whether am I better than Judas or not, time will tell besides America God will know

BabaGnoni:


"Caiaphas was a high priest, he was a Jew but judgement came upon the Jew when Jesus came.
They had to accept Jesus to be on God's side and God's new programme (judas did that) "- shdemidemi

Maybe the air will be clearer when you tell how Judas is good
and thus doesn't deserve to perish
How, when and where Judas accepted to be on God's side
- Judas that fraternized with Caiaphas & Co.

as for whether am I better than Judas or not, time will tell besides America God will know

Judas became righteous the moment he was called by Christ. He became a part of Christ when He followed the saviour by believing in Him.

Like judas, do you also fall into sinful acts, no matter how small you think such sins are worth?

BabaGnoni:

You haven't removed the forward slash inside the first quote tag (i.e. leave out the slash inside "They magnified and glorified their God...)
and your post should display correctly or should be alright

Why should one be hellbound, one will only be hellbound if one's love of money leads to committing evil now

I had earlier responded to you that:
Matt 19:28, is subject to change, concerning Judas
Judas wasn't a sheep that listened to the Voice
Everyone knows Judas was of the world
Judas wasn't given like the others were to Jesus.

These verses backs it up bro:

¹⁴Then one of the Twelve—the one called Judas Iscariot—went to the chief priests
¹⁵and asked, “What are you willing to give me if I deliver him over to you?”
So they counted out for him thirty pieces of silver.
¹⁶From then on Judas watched for an opportunity to hand him over.
- Matthew 26:14-16 NIV

³When Judas, who had betrayed him, realized that Jesus had been condemned to die, he was filled with remorse.
So he took the thirty pieces of silver back to the leading priests and the elders.
⁴“I have sinned,” he declared, “for I have betrayed an innocent man .”
“What do we care?” they retorted. “That’s your problem.”
- Matthew 27:3-4 NLT

⁹“My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given me, because they belong to you.
¹⁰All who are mine belong to you, and you have given them to me, so they bring me glory.
¹¹Now I am departing from the world; they are staying in this world, but I am coming to you.
Holy Father, you have given me your name;
now protect them by the power of your name so that they will be united just as we are.
¹²During my time here, I protected them by the power of the name you gave me.
I guarded them so that not one was lost, except the one headed for destruction, as the Scriptures foretold
- John 17:9-12 NLT

Judas repented before he died. He sinned against Christ the same way we do today and are forgiven if we repent.

shdemidemi:


Judas became righteous the moment he was called by Christ.

He became a part of Christ when He followed the saviour by believed in Him.

Like judas, do you also fall into sinful acts, no matter how small you think such sins are worth?

Haba bro! Only you, only you said all these.

Judas? Became righteous? When? How? Before or after Calvary?
Also have you forgotten that Jesus had other disciples too followed Him?
It is not about human effort you know

⁶³The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing.
And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
⁶⁴But some of you do not believe me.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning which ones didn’t believe, and he knew who would betray him.) ⁶⁵Then he said, “That is why I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father gives them to me.”
⁶⁶At this point many of his disciples turned away and deserted him.
⁶⁷Then Jesus turned to the Twelve and asked, “Are you also going to leave?”
- John 6:63-67 NLT

Of course, don't we all, which is why Hebrews 4:16 is handy

BabaGnoni:

Haba bro! Only you, only you said all these.

Judas? Became righteous? When? How? Before or after Calvary?
Also have you forgotten that Jesus had other disciples too followed Him?
It is not about human effort you know

⁶³The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing.
And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
⁶⁴But some of you do not believe me.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning which ones didn’t believe, and he knew who would betray him.) ⁶⁵Then he said, “That is why I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father gives them to me.”
⁶⁶At this point many of his disciples turned away and deserted him.
⁶⁷Then Jesus turned to the Twelve and asked, “Are you also going to leave?”
- John 6:63-67 NLT

Even before the birth of Christ, God gave the Jews a way to atone for their sins... What was needed by a Jew to be saved during christ's earthly ministry I.e before the death of Jesus was for them to believe Jesus is the son of God. This was the same news Jesus told the disciples (judas inclusive) to preach to the Jews only, he also admonished them not to go to Samaritans nor Gentiles at that time.

After Calvary the entire special treatment for the Jews seized.. The entire world have to be saved based on the redemptive sacrifice and no more by lineage.


Did any of His special disciple leave Him?

shdemidemi:

Even before the birth of Christ, God gave the Jews a way to atone for their sins...
What was needed by a Jew to be saved before the death of Jesus was for them to believe Jesus is the son of God.
This was the same news Jesus told the disciples (judas inclusive) to preach to only the Jews,
he also admonished them not to go to Samaritans nor Gentiles.

After Calvary the entire special treatment for the Jews seized..
The entire world had to be saved based on the redemptive sacrifice.

Did any of His special disciple leave Him?

Bro whoa whoa whoa LOL
The Jews were the starting block to the entire world (i.e. Genesis 12:2 and Genesis 22:18)
Until Calvary, God gave the Jews animal burnt offering to atone for their sins (i.e. here you go again trying to pull a fast one)

Ah- ha, are you suggesting a will (i.e. the new testament) was executed before His death
He admonished them not to go to Samaritans nor Gentiles because the time wasn't right (i.e. it was pre-Calvary)

Judas left Him

nedu2000: mark 14:21 ".....
New International Version
The Son of Man will go just as it is written
about him. But woe to that man who
betrays the Son of Man! It would be better
for him if he had not been born."
Everything in this world is about individual choices,it could've been Peter or James or even Mary.Judas made his choice and ended it with suicid[/b]e,hes more likely in the deepest & darkest part of hell than heaven.

Lies.. Judas didnt have a choice as it was already ordained according to the bible for him to betray jesus.


John 13 vs 26-27: 26 [b]Jesus then answered, "That is the one for whom I shall dip the morsel and give it to him." So when He had dipped the morsel, He took and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 27After the morsel, Satan then entered into him. Therefore Jesus said to him, "What you do, do quickly."

This also shows that Jesus knew that Judas was to betray him. Judas had no choice but peter had. Yet still Peter denied jesus 3 times however jesus still prayed for peter but as for judas, he betrayed and repented but he was not forgiven.

BabaGnoni:

Bro whoa whoa whoa LOL
The Jews were the starting block to the entire world (i.e. Genesis 12:2 and Genesis 22:18)

God knew this bit, it was written in black and white but the Jews had no clue that they were about to play out Genesis 12:2. The Jews were naturally zealous but they lacked knowledge, they were so blind to the truth that they fulfilled to detail the way Jesus was to be killed. Even till this day an average Jew does not see a gentile as being a part of God, they still hold fast to their bloodline, customs and their heritage.

BabaGnoni:
Until Calvary, God gave the Jews animal burnt offering to atone for their sins (i.e. here you go again trying to pull a fast one)

Ah- ha, are you suggesting a will (i.e. the new testament) was executed before His death
He admonished them not to go to Samaritans nor Gentiles because the time wasn't right (i.e. it was pre-Calvary)

Atonement for sin that was done by the Jews was more like sweeping their sins under a carpet. Their sins was not completely removed but covered until the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The condition for salvation for the Jews who lived after the gospel was preached by apostle Paul was to believe in the death, burial and resurrection.

BabaGnoni:
Judas left

Can you leave Christ as a Christian?

I know about the way in, I have never heard about a way out of Christ, have you?

Dragonking:
27After the morsel, Satan then entered into him. Therefore Jesus said to him, "What you do, do quickly."[/b]

In fact, Jesus was more or less telling judas to go betray him quickly. Who in their right sense would go on with a thing like that even when it seem they have been busted.

shdemidemi:

In fact, Jesus was more or less telling judas to go betray him quickly. Who in their right sense would go on with a thing like that even when it seem they have been busted.

Thats why jesus gave judas the morsel for satan to enter into him..SO it wasnt Judas fault that he betrayed jesus.. Judas is actually indirectly innocent come to think of it.

shdemidemi:

In fact, Jesus was more or less telling judas to go betray him quickly.
Who in their right sense would go on with a thing like that even when it seem they have been busted.

We are going round the block again, are we now bro?
We've being round here before bro, haven't we...
Someone worldly and deluded thinking he'll have a prominent role or part in the earthly rulership Jesus will establish
after resisting the temple guards coming to arrest him and overthrowing the Romans
Someone thinking he was doing Jesus a favour, especially when he thinks Jesus is eager to get things started

Dragonking:

Thats why jesus gave judas the morsel for satan to enter into him..SO it wasnt Judas fault that he betrayed jesus.. Judas is actually indirectly innocent come to think of it.

God bless you bro...

shdemidemi:

God knew this bit, it was written in black and white but the Jews had no clue that they were about to play out Genesis 12:2. The Jews were naturally zealous but they lacked knowledge, they were so blind to the truth that they fulfilled to detail the way Jesus was to be killed. Even till this day an average Jew does not see a gentile as being a part of God, they still hold fast to their bloodline, customs and their heritage.


Atonement for sin that was done by the Jews was more like sweeping their sins under a carpet. Their sins was not completely removed but covered until the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The condition for salvation for the Jews who lived after the gospel was preached by apostle Paul was to believe in the death, burial and resurrection.

Can you leave Christ as a Christian?

I know about the way in, I have never heard about a way out of Christ, have you?

We've been here before bro
If one is truly in Christ, one can't get out
How where and/or when did Judas get to be "in"?

BabaGnoni:

We are going round the block again, are we now bro?
We've being round here before bro, haven't we...
Someone worldly and deluded thinking he'll have a prominent role or part in the earthly rulership Jesus will establish
after resisting the temple guards coming to arrest him and overthrowing the Romans
Someone thinking he was doing Jesus a favour, especially when he thinks Jesus is eager to get things started

What if he had refuse to betray Christ, what would have been your fate and most importantly the word which God spoke even before judas was born?

Dragonking:

Thats why jesus gave judas the morsel for satan to enter into him..
SO it wasnt Judas fault that he betrayed jesus...
Judas is actually indirectly innocent come to think of it.

shdemidemi:

God bless you bro...

Whose fault was it then.
Who allowed the devil to take advantage?
Why couldn't it have being Peter, John, Mark, Luke etc etc?
Or maybe either of you?

BabaGnoni:



Whose fault was it then.
Who allowed the devil to take advantage?
Why couldn't it have being Peter, John, Mark, Luke etc etc?
Or maybe either of you?

It was God's wisdom and plan for the world. Apostle Paul will say-

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

shdemidemi:

What if he had refuse to betray Christ, what would have been your fate
and most importantly the word which God spoke even before judas was born?

I can also back wheel drive the "what if..."
What if Mary hadn't agreed with Angel Gabriel with "be it unto me according to thy word."
and most importantly the word of God (i.e. 10 prophecies) had spoken of this before Jesus was born

BabaGnoni:

We've been here before bro
If one is truly in Christ, one can't get out
How where and/or when did Judas get to be "in"?

You never chose Christ, neither did judas choose Christ.... He called you to himself, like he called judas.

Once God calls, you cannot de-call yourself, going by scriptures.

John 15:16
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, ......

shdemidemi:

It was God's wisdom and plan for the world. Apostle Paul will say-

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Like I earlier said, it had to do with God tackling and dealing with sin, the root and the whole essence of sin
the extraction of sinfulness to it's core
which is why Adam and Eve were left in the garden with the tree of knowledge of good and evil

BabaGnoni:



Whose fault was it then.
Who allowed the devil to take advantage?
Why couldn't it have being Peter, John, Mark, Luke etc etc?
Or maybe either of you?

Stop being fo0lish and read the quoted verse i posted again. Jesus gave judas a morsel which was to allow the devil enter into his body to enable judas betray jesus.

shdemidemi:

You never chose Christ, neither did judas choose Christ.... He called you to himself, like he called judas.

Once God calls, you cannot de-call yourself, going by scriptures.

John 15:16
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, ......

As I earlier said, if one is truly in Christ, one doesn't then is
What kind of fruit did Judas bring forth bro?
Many are called but few are chosen bro (i.e. Matthew 22:14)
Call don't mean selection

BabaGnoni:

I can also back wheel drive the "what if..."
What if Mary hadn't agreed with Angel Gabriel with "be it unto me according to thy word."
and most importantly the word of God (i.e. 10 prophecies) had spoken of this before Jesus was born

Elucidate...


All I am saying is that the overall will of God will always come to pass although men generally think they have their free will and volition. God had said Jesus will be be born in Bethlehem. Joseph and Mary had to be moved to Bethlehem somehow. They were living their lives but unknowingly fulfilling Gods word.

Esau and Jacob were known before they were born. God had foretold which will serve which, they were oblivious to Gods plan but they carried it out to the letter over some stew.

Judas had no choice in the matter.

shdemidemi:

Elucidate...

All I am saying is that the overall will of God will always come to past although man generally thinks he has his free will and volition. God had said Jesus will be be born in Bethlehem. Joseph and Mary had to be moved to Bethlehem somehow. They were living their lives but unknowingly fulfilling Gods word.

Esau and Jacob were known before they were born.
God had foretold which will serve which, they were oblivious to Gods plan but they carried it out to the letter over some stew.

Judas had no choice in the matter

Same as Adam, Eve, Cain, Pharaoh, Caiaphas etc did not have a choice?

BabaGnoni:

Same as Adam, Eve, Cain, Pharaoh, Caiaphas etc did not have a choice?

^^What is wrong with this guy?

Judas was predestined to betray jesus to fulfill the word and save mankind blah blah blah according to the bible. Was Adam/eve/cain predestined to do such?

See below verses for your understanding that Judas was predestined to betray jesus whether he liked it or not:

John 6:67-71 ESV

So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.

John 12:4-6 ESV

But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (he who was about to betray him), said, “Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?” He said this, not because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief, and having charge of the moneybag he used to help himself to what was put into it.

John 13:18 ESV

I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’