shdemidemi:
I am in no way deviating from the subject matter..all I am doing is to reveal God's attribute and how preceding issues was dealt with by God.

If I dump God's grace, does that make God change His mind over His gift?

There you go againu
You're getting yourself tied up in knots again bro
The thread isn't even about God's grace or God's gift
but if you want to digress a bit , fine then...

Bird fly, and fly gracefully because God gave bird the gift or ability to fly and to gracefully fly too
Bird gets caught in a trapper's cage, don't mean God has changed His mind over the flying gift
Only thing now is that bird is caught in the trapper's cage. Oh dear.
Whats little birdie going to do about that
The grace to fly is there, the ability to fly is there
but thing is, bird is snookered...

I really don't get your fixation on boxing the issue on Judas and judas alone.. It is really not about Judas but how God interpret what Judas did and how God will judge him.

It is all about God's standard of judgement and not about the works (good or bad) of men... In this case, works of judas.

Your analogy of the bird does not fit into God's gift of salvation. No matter what you do with God's gift of salvation, He remains faithful to what He had said.

God sees man as what they are, He says our minds are evil and desperately wicked. Jesus called mankind evil. Paul says none of us is good.

Judas is not different from peter or Paul or you...we are all sinners saved by God's mercy and not by how much we love money or how we betray people around us.

shdemidemi:

I really don't get your fixation on boxing the issue on Judas and judas alone..

It is really not about Judas but how God interpret what Judas did and how God will judge him.

It is all about God's standard of judgement and not about the works (good or bad) of men... In this case, works of judas.

Your analogy of the bird does not fit into God's gift of salvation.
No matter what you do with God's gift of salvation, He remains faithful to what He had said.

God sees man as what they are, He says our minds are evil and desperately wicked. Jesus called mankind evil.
Paul says none of us is good.

Judas is not different from peter or Paul or you...
we are all sinners saved by God's mercy and not by how much we love money or how we betray people around us.

Don't personalise the thread with me bro, saying "I really don't get your fixation on boxing the issue on Judas and judas alone..."
- there you go again, having a go at me.

This thread is about Judas and villainy,
the thread isn't about how God interprets what Judas did and how God will judge him.
You can open up a new thread for that, if that is what you want to harp on about

Which part of the analogy of the bird does not fit into God's gift of salvation? Hmm?
Did God take back the bird in the cage's gift-ability of flying? No, I've answered for you
Is the grace, albeit now useless, still not with the bird in the cage? Yes, I've answered that one too for you

"God sees man as what they are, He says our minds are evil and desperately wicked.
Jesus called mankind evil.
Paul says none of us is good."
- shdemidemi

Please spare us the above prosaic.
Tell us something else we don't know. Like something we don't already know please.

"Judas is not different from peter or Paul or you...
we are all sinners saved by God's mercy
and not by how much we love money or how we betray people around us."
- shdemidemi

Who is talking about how much one loves or not loves money here?
Who is talking about how one betrays or doesn't betrays people around one?

The thread asked: "Is Judas Iscariot Really A Villain?"
and ended with this sentence: "The reason is that he was programmed to behave so from the word go."

You ought to have had responses to the likes of:
Was Judas really programmed to behave so from the word go or not?
Did a love of money, which is the root of all evil, lead Judas to betraying Jesus or not?
Was Judas', the character in question, actions or motives evil albeit also important to the events that unfolds?
Did Judas have a choice or free will in the whole matter at all or not?
Did Judas have an ulterior motive for betraying Jesus apart from the incentive or lure of those 30 pieces of silver or not?
Was Judas expecting something extraordinaire to happen at Jesus' arrest and/or trial?
Did events not turn out the way Judas had expected or anticipated?
Was Judas' action villainous or saintly?
Is Judas really a villain, saint or is he both? (i.e. villain and saint)

I understand you are skilled in word gymnastics, hence this tete a tete can last for however long you want it to.

I have given you reasons why God will not, cannot condemn judas according to scriptures.

I have given you reasons why you and I need judas to do what he did

I have given you a portion of scripture where Jesus counted judas as part of the twelve who shall be present with him judging Israel

I have given you why we, including judas and Peter taught what judas did was evil but how God sees the slaughtering of Jesus as good

I have given you why the devil could use judas like he can use you and I today

I have also said Jesus chose twelve men, knowing that there was work each was to carry out within the confines of their strength and energy; all parties would be allowed the free exercise of their own choice; they were allowed to follow their course, ignorant of the fact that, all the while, they were only contributing their share towards the fulfillment of God’s plan and purpose for His Son, Jesus. God did not, and could not, make a mistake in His choosing of Judas as one of His disciples.

I have said it was part of the plan of God, one way or another the plan had to be fulfilled. Therefore God would need someone who had a particular weakness or character (greed) because God knew the chief priest would offer money and he also knew that Judas would be tempted by it; remember I said the same had happened with the brothers of Joseph as they sold him to the Ishmaelite’s. Had this not happened, there would have been so many questions about the reason for Joseph’s story because we would not be able to link his story with that of Jesus.

Judas betrays Jesus to the Jews but did not know He was going to die; the whole saga was taken out of the hands of the Jews and death was imminent. He was killed according to the Will of God; Joseph was in the pit for three days and on the third day he was brought out of the pit and was afterwards shipped to Egypt. Jesus had to die according to prophecy and on the third day be raised from the dead, proceeding to the right hand of the father to prepare a place for the Church, just as Joseph had done for his family.


The issue is not in who betrayed him but that He was meant to be betrayed. Judas became remorseful; he repented of what he had done (Matthew 27:4) and tried to return the thirty pieces of silver but they did not accept it back from him. He threw the money on the temple floor and committed suicide. The question is, how would Judas have coped with the other disciples? He would not have been able to, knowing what he did. He had no choice but to kill himself and, besides, he had finished the work God had planned for him, just like John the Baptist.[b][/b]

On the other side of the coin, we can only thank God that Judas carried out to the letter God’s plan, for if he had had second thoughts, we would not have been saved today, aside from the fact that the promises of God never fail.

His name, JUDAS, means one who is to be praised. As I have mentioned, the whole epic is not about Judas but about how Judas was used by God to accomplish His will, plan and purpose for humanity.

shdemidemi: I understand you are skilled in word gymnastics, hence this tete a tete can last for however long you want it to.

I have given you reasons why God will not, cannot condemn judas according to scriptures.

I have given you reasons why you and I need judas to do what he did

I have given you a portion of scripture where Jesus counted judas as part of the twelve who shall be present with him judging Israel

I have given you why we, including judas and Peter taught what judas did was evil but how God sees the slaughtering of Jesus as good

I have given you why the devil could use judas like he can use you and I today

I have also said Jesus chose twelve men, knowing that there was work each was to carry out within the confines of their strength and energy; all parties would be allowed the free exercise of their own choice; they were allowed to follow their course, ignorant of the fact that, all the while, they were only contributing their share towards the fulfillment of God’s plan and purpose for His Son, Jesus. God did not, and could not, make a mistake in His choosing of Judas as one of His disciples.

I have said it was part of the plan of God, one way or another the plan had to be fulfilled.
Therefore God would need someone who had a particular weakness or character (greed) because God knew the chief priest would offer money and he also knew that Judas would be tempted by it; remember I said the same had happened with the brothers of Joseph as they sold him to the Ishmaelite’s.
Had this not happened, there would have been so many questions about the reason for Joseph’s story because we would not be able to link his story with that of Jesus.

How many more cards do you have under your sleeve, that you're yet to use?
Translation card has gone, gymnastics gone too, what's going to be the next one?

I tire for you ooo sha for this one bro.
because you're just rehashing what I've previously said about God and that the plan goes on
(i.e. https://www.nairaland.com/1820451/judas-iscariot-really-villain/3#24892107)

Did you hear or read anywhere on this thread, anyone saying God made a mistake in choosing any person(s)? Eh?

Cant you see it? Cant you see God coming in through all these events
God is coming in, coming in because He has foreknowledge of what each individual will decide to do at each particular time or moment.
God had started coming in right from Eden until when He touch landed on that winter early hours in Bethlehem
It is foreknowledge, it is not that God predestined anyone's action(s) or any event in advance to happen.
God does not determine your choice or the outcome of your action in advance for you or anyone.
God goes with the flow. He can handle whatever choice you make or whatever action you take.
God might have to take the Israelite route because of it, but He will get to His expected end
and accomplish that which He please.

Ordinary and straightforward answers to the following, you no gree:
Was Judas really programmed to behave so from the word go or not?
Did a love of money, which is the root of all evil, lead Judas to betraying Jesus or not?
Was Judas', the character in question, actions or motives evil albeit also important to the events that unfolds?
Did Judas have a choice or free will in the whole matter at all or not?
Did Judas have an ulterior motive for betraying Jesus apart from the incentive or lure of those 30 pieces of silver or not?
Was Judas expecting something extraordinaire to happen at Jesus' arrest and/or trial?
Did events not turn out the way Judas had expected or anticipated?
Was Judas' action villainous or saintly?
Is Judas really a villain, saint or is he both? (i.e. villain and saint)

shdemidemi:
Judas betrays Jesus to the Jews but did not know He was going to die;
the whole saga was taken out of the hands of the Jews and death was imminent.
He was killed according to the Will of God; Joseph was in the pit for three days
and on the third day he was brought out of the pit and was afterwards shipped to Egypt.
Jesus had to die according to prophecy and on the third day be raised from the dead,
proceeding to the right hand of the father to prepare a place for the Church, just as Joseph had done for his family.

The issue is not in who betrayed him but that He was meant to be betrayed. Judas became remorseful;
he repented of what he had done (Matthew 27:4) and tried to return the thirty pieces of silver but they did not accept it back from him.
He threw the money on the temple floor and committed suicide.

The question is, how would Judas have coped with the other disciples?
He would not have been able to, knowing what he did.
He had no choice but to kill himself and, besides, he had finished the work God had planned for him, just like John the Baptist.

On the other side of the coin, we can only thank God that Judas carried out to the letter God’s plan, for if he had had second thoughts,
we would not have been saved today, aside from the fact that the promises of God never fail.

His name, JUDAS, means one who is to be praised.
As I have mentioned, the whole epic is not about Judas but about how Judas was used by God to accomplish His will, plan and purpose for humanity.

God had not planned anything for anyone
Judas actions fell into God's plan of things (i.e. prophecy from Gen 3:15)

Bro, you don't half crack me up here
Listen to yourself bro, can't you see how you are jumbling things up
Drop the clichés, there so oversused watch this:
If Jesus couldn't kill Himself, as it is illegal for Jesus to kill Himself,
if John didn't kill himself, or are you saying John the Baptist killed himself,
what makes you think Judas is allowed to kill himself, and killing himself illegally for that matter too. Hmm?
Why all these pulling wool over eyes now bro. Why?, why? Ah. SMH.

Whether or not Judas carried out to the letter God’s plan, is irrelevant here bro
and this is because of Gen 3:15 and Isaiah 55:11

"...JUDAS means one who is to be praised..." - shdemidemi
Yeah it means praise
- It actually is a JUDAH variation
That however is, a clutch at a straw classic there, if you can spot one.
I knew you had the "...JUDAS means one who is to be praised..." card too hidden up your sleeve and would be using it sooner if not later
but alas you've proved me right, you've just did
Might as well find out what Iscariot means or I'll help out, its "outsider"

The whole epic is about the original plan of a thorough & complete solution over a problem
that existed prior to Eden, Adam & Eve and from what Gen 3:15 got generated from.

Mr Gnoni.. Was God involved when Esau sold his birth right to Jacob - predestination or fluke

Who is a saint and who is a villain by God's standard according to scriptures?

Simon is also called Peter.

Simon means the one who hears..

Jesus called Peter by his other name Simon, because he heard God's mind about who the son of man really is...upon what he heard Jesus started his church.

In a similar way, I used judas because he deserves to be praised for my salvation as his name imply...

shdemidemi: Simon is also called Peter.

Simon means the one who hears..

Jesus called Peter by his other name Simon, because he heard God's mind about who the son of man really is...
upon what he heard Jesus started his church.

In a similar way, I used judas because he deserves to be praised for my salvation as his name imply...

Let me quickly answer this first, I'll come back to your previous post before this
I intimated earlier that you are performing an eisegesis instead of an exegesis,
but you disagreed
It is Bible 101 that Simon means reed, as in wavering reed in Hebrew (i.e. his carnal nature and name)
until God like He did with Abram, Sarai, Jacob etc changed his name to Peter meaning rock, be solid (i.e. his spiritual nature and name)
The church was built on the revelation he spoke (i.e. that word is like a foundation rock) in front of Jesus and speech at Antioch

shdemidemi: Mr Gnoni.. Was God involved when Esau sold his birth right to Jacob - predestination or fluke

Who is a saint and who is a villain by God's standard according to scriptures?

Stop using predestination!
That's your stumbling block
I'll rewrite that properly like this and answer back:
Q/ Mr Gnoni.. Was God involved when Esau sold his birth right to Jacob - Foreknowledge or fluke
A/ Foreknowledge
(i.e. God had foreknowledge of Esau's plan to sell his birth right to Jacob and so played along,
remember which is why He informed Rebekah in Genesis 25:23 that the elder will serve the younger)

Q/ Who is a saint and who is a villain by God's standard according to scriptures?
A/ For saint:
But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints;
and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting,
but rather giving of thanks - Ephesians 5:3-4
A/ For villain :
A troublemaker and a villain, who goes about with a corrupt mouth - Proverbs 6:12 NIV

BabaGnoni:

Stop using predestination!
That's your stumbling block
I'll rewrite that properly like this and answer back:
Q/ Mr Gnoni.. Was God involved when Esau sold his birth right to Jacob - foreknowledge or fluke
A/ foreknowledge

Does God predestine anything asides from foreknowing a thing?

You did not answer the question

BabaGnoni: Q/ Who is a saint and who is a villain by God's standard according to scriptures?
A/ But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints;
and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting,
but rather giving of thanks - Ephesians 5:3-4
A/ A troublemaker and a villain, who goes about with a corrupt mouth - Proverbs 6:12 NIV

I asked you who a saint is and who a villain is from God's perspective, but this your response says nothing to reply the question

shdemidemi:

Does God predestine anything asides from foreknowing a thing?

You did not answer the question

I asked you who a saint is and who a villain is from God's perspective,
but this your response says nothing to reply the question

There is a lot of let-there-be and it-was-so predestinations
Also let-us-make-man-in-our-image is another example of predestination bro

The responses with the black BOLDs are suffice as the verses are self explanatory bro

BabaGnoni:

There is a lot of let-there-be and it-was-so predestinations
Also let-us-makeman-in-our-image is another example of predestination bro

The responses are suffice as the verses are self explanatory bro

I asked the question for a reason bro..please answer it, rather than expect me to assume answers when no answer was given.

shdemidemi:

I asked the question for a reason bro...
please answer it, rather than expect me to assume answers when no answer was given.

I've given you verses as you asked about a saint and a villain.
What more do you need or want bro
OK what's a saint and villain to you from God's perspective then bro?

BabaGnoni:

I've given you verses as you asked about a saint and a villain.
What more do you need or want bro
OK what's a saint and villain to you from God's perspective then bro?

My friend, you quoted where Paul admonish on how they should act as saints and what is expected.... He did not say their attitude made them saints in the first place neither did he say they will stop being saints if they act in such ways.

And the the other was a quote from proverb that had villain written in it.

You asked if judas was a saint or a villain .. I expect you to know who a saint or a villain is in bible context.

shdemidemi:

My friend, you quoted where Paul admonish on how they should act as saints and what is expected....

He did not say their attitude made them saints in the first place neither did he say they will stop being saints if they act in such ways.

And the the other was a quote from proverb that had villain written in it.

OK, you caught me...

Is this what you want to hear:
a saint is part of the body of Christ
a villain has done some evil act

BabaGnoni:

OK, you caught me...

Is this what you want to hear:
a saint is part of the body of Christ
a villain has done some evil act

Peter did an evil act, did he become a villain in God's eye?

The man who got excommunicated from the church in Corinth for sleeping with his dad's wife did evil but Paul never saw him as a villain...

The Corinth church were so carnal, Paul still referred to them as saints...

From these three examples, who then can we call a villain?

shdemidemi:

Peter did an evil act, did he become a villain in God's eye?

The man who got excommunicated from the church in Corinth for sleeping with his dad's wife did evil but Paul never saw him as a villain...

The Corinth church were so carnal, Paul still referred to them as saints...

From these three examples, who then can we call a villain?

Did Peter, the man who got excommunicated or the Corinth church illegally kill himself or themselves?
So, what's your point, what points are you racking up?

BabaGnoni:

Did Peter, the man who got excommunicated or the Corinth church illegally kill himself or themselves?
So, what's your point, what points are you racking up?

No, they all fell in different ways... Moreover killing oneself isn't recorded to be a sin without forgiveness.

All I am saying is that, these people did some evil act (going by your definition). Did that make them villains in the eyes of God?

One common thing with all these people is that they were in the faith....

The bible says without faith, we can't please God....

Now.. Who is a villain?

shdemidemi:

No, they all fell in different ways... Moreover killing oneself isn't recorded to be a sin without forgiveness.

All I am saying is that, these people did some evil act (going by your definition). Did that make them villains in the eyes of God?

One common thing with all these people is that they were in the faith....

The bible says without faith, we can't please God....

Now.. Who is a villain?

Look my friend, spare me these trivialities
I have given you verses where Jesus said, it would have been better if Judas wasn't born
but you want to preach another Gospel or Good News
and owe your salvation to Judas instead of appropriately to God

I have informed you that you're putting the cart before the horse,
that you are muddling events and things up (e.g. foreknowledge and predestination etc etc)

Even the Sandherin wouldn't put the money Judas threw back into the Temple treasury
- they called it blood money

Just go straight to your point will you, what's your point, what points are you racking up?

BabaGnoni:

Look my friend, spare me these trivialities
I have given you verses where Jesus said, it would have been better if Judas wasn't born
but you want to preach another Gospel or Good News
and owe your salvation to Judas instead of appropriately to God

I have informed you that you're putting the cart before the horse,
that you are muddling events and things up (e.g. foreknowledge and predestination etc etc)

Even the Sandherin wouldn't put the money Judas threw back into the Temple treasury
- they called it blood money

Just go straight to your point will you, what's your point, what points are you racking up?

Patience friend, there is no rush...

Without faith it is impossible to please God... Meanwhile, there is no condemnation for anyone who happens to be in the faith because no one, no situation or condition can separate such person from God.

Judas was in the faith, Peter was, the Corinth bad boy was, the Corinth church was, so they can be called saints. Who then is a villain?

BabaGnoni:

Look my friend, [b]spare me these trivialities
I have given you verses where Jesus said, it would have been better if Judas wasn't born?

I am sure judas felt that way when he was there alone sobbing, seeing all that he had done to His master. Although, ignorant to what it all meant.

shdemidemi:

Patience friend, there is no rush...

Without faith it is impossible to please God...

Meanwhile, there is no condemnation for anyone who happens to be in the faith
because no one, no situation or condition can separate such person from God.

Judas was in the faith, Peter was, the Corinth bad boy was, the Corinth church was, so they can be called saints.
Who then is a villain?

I am sure judas felt that way when he was there alone sobbing, seeing all that he had done to His master.
Although, ignorant to what it all meant.

Facepalm. Duh! Why didn't I see that. Pftt. SMH.
Would you believe it, Judas is one smart alec you know
- Judas, oh sneaky, sneaky Judas, he was in the faith all along (i.e. he never, not even for once, or anytime lost the faith)
Judas is a hero! Judas is a saint afterall
I suppose we all now have to rephrase it as: Thank God for Judas

You guys would make terrible housemates, lol. Back, back, forth, forth and Back.

Image123: You guys would make terrible housemates, lol. Back, back, forth, forth and Back.

Lol.. That got me laughing...

The man can tumble dry pass washing machine. Bless him still

Image123: You guys would make terrible housemates, lol. Back, back, forth, forth and Back.

shdemidemi:

Lol.. That got me laughing...

The man can tumble dry pass washing machine. Bless him still

Don't mind my bro jaare,
instead of him to come straight out with this JC predestination malarkey
which we've all sniffed off him whilst he was a mile away
he still wanted it ferreted out of him, and ferreted out with difficulties
He is a work and a half
You're better off jettisoning this JC version of predestination to know God and your theology yourself
For God is Spirit, and so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth



I'll leave you with the above message to get the meaning foreknowledge and predestination right
so you'll stop putting the cart before the horse again

Ok o...

When God says I chose you, you did not choose me, you are saying it is our choice to choose God.

Hmmm.. Who should I believe ooooooooooo

shdemidemi: Ok o...

When God says I chose you, you did not choose me, you are saying it is our choice to choose God.

Hmmm.. Who should I believe ooooooooooo

This man sha, this bro sha.

When God says I chose you (i.e. John 3:16)
it means as we've been deliberating so far and all along on the thread that God decided to solve the original problem along with man & his world
God choose you, me and everyone to be saved
You, I & everyone else did not choose to be saved (i.e. that prerogative is God's)
He knows what your, mine & everyone's choice will be and so honors them at each particular point in time
God choose you, I & everyone to be saved,
but He will respect your, my or everyone's else wish or will, if you, I or everyone else rejects, declines or passes on the offer of salvation
It's a no-brainer, one doesn't need to piggyback on John Calvin to understand it

BabaGnoni:

This man sha, this bro sha.

When God says I chose you (i.e. John 3:16)
it means as we've been deliberating so far and all along on the thread that God decided to solve the original problem along with man & his world
God choose you, me and everyone to be saved
You, I & everyone else did not choose to be saved (i.e. that prerogative is God's)
He knows what your, mine & everyone's choice will be and so honors them at each particular point in time
God choose you, I & everyone to be saved,
but He will respect your, my or everyone's else wish or will, if you, I or everyone else rejects, declines or passes on the offer of salvation
It's a no-brainer, one doesn't need to piggyback on John Calvin to understand it

Brother, as clear as that statement is you force your private interpretation...

Almost all of apostle Paul's letters mention and speaks of God's election.

Romans 11:5 particularly speaks abt those elected by God's grace

Romans 8:29 talks abt foreknowledge and predestination...

Please do more study on this.. No point arguing bk n forth, just chk these things. Thanks

BabaGnoni:

This man sha, this bro sha.

When God says I chose you (i.e. John 3:16)
it means as we've been deliberating so far and all along on the thread that God decided to solve the original problem along with man & his world
God choose you, me and everyone to be saved
You, I & everyone else did not choose to be saved (i.e. that prerogative is God's)
He knows what your, mine & everyone's choice will be and so honors them at each particular point in time
God choose you, I & everyone to be saved,
but He will respect your, my or everyone's else wish or will, if you, I or everyone else rejects, declines or passes on the offer of salvation
It's a no-brainer, one doesn't need to piggyback on John Calvin to understand it

You have plenty of points for articulacy and sheer inexhaustible willpower to extend an argument interminably forever but your logic does fall short as you can't overcome certain pre-conceptions. Predestination is a hard thing for believers to wrap their heads around. In my bible-believing, christian days, I held pretty much the exact views some of you are peddling spiced with all the cliches about free will and all that. But my bias in christian teachings about our human free will guided my arguments. I could basically twist very passage to suit that argument.

But the reality is that a dispassionate, irreligious view of the Bible's teachings about predestination and foreknowledge shows that the Bible ties itself up in inextricable knots about this subject. It basically contradicts itself with different messages on the subject depending on which view one is arguing from.

I still don't see how a rational argument can be made that despite an omniscient God knowing everything about us and our destiny before our birth, we still have capability to bend destiny to our will. That's some serious logical gymnastics. It doesn't matter if I woke up tomorrow morning and deliberately swallowed poison and died. The same God that foresaw events at the very end of time as we know it must still have foreseen the tragic destiny for me. It doesn't matter what I do. He'd still have foreseen it happening. Which almost makes life somewhat pointless as far as the salvation race is concerned.

One interesting thing about new found belief/disbelief is how radically your views change on every topic imaginable once you take the step to the other side of the belief. It's like a disturbed stone that starts an avalanche and everything comes toppling over. If you became an atheist tomorrow and you looked back on this subject, you'd find your current views somewhat ridiculous.

Tallesty1:
It is better we stop this because I don't want to sound like an unbeliever,
whats the sense in hardening some's heart and then punish him and his people for disobedient?

A mind that is afraid withers away; it cannot function properly.
- JIDDU KRISHNAMURTI, On Fear

If you would make your mind strong, you must give it strong food.
- REUEN THOMAS, Thoughts for the Thoughtful

Better we stop? Why?
- especially, when you are making enquiries and asking bona fide questions whilst at it

Pharaoh was a willing participant,
Pharaoh was raring to go bad.
God didn't like that, and so God was holding Pharaoh back nevertheless God eventually obliged him
and made do of the circumstances or made the best of it

Pharaoh was willing and eager to "fight". Yes? No?
But God stepped in holding Pharaoh's heart back from turning hard. Yes? No?
God eventually stepped back and respected Pharaoh's free will to go "fighting"
and his stubbornness to hardening up his soft heart. Yes? No?
God allowed Pharaoh to harden up his heart and this paved way for Pharaoh to "fight". Yes? No?

God was pouring fluid on Pharaoh's heart which kept it from hardening. Yes? No?
- just like one does in keeping a kitchen sponge wet or dripping by pouring water on it
Stop the flow on the sponge or Pharaoh's heart, what will happen?

When God hands off one, then He allows the heart of whose He has taken His hands off, to harden up

We serve a just God and as God, He is free to act in any way He chooses
When one puts stuff in the kitchen dustbin, is that punishment or a judgement?
If I may ask, what was the "punishment"?
because when all is said and done, we all, are sometime, some day going to die anyway

Obi1kenobi:
You have plenty of points for articulacy and sheer inexhaustible willpower to extend an argument interminably forever but your logic does fall short as you can't overcome certain pre-conceptions. Predestination is a hard thing for believers to wrap their heads around. In my bible-believing, christian days, I held pretty much the exact views some of you are peddling spiced with all the cliches about free will and all that. But my bias in christian teachings about our human free will guided my arguments. I could basically twist very passage to suit that argument.

But the reality is that a dispassionate, irreligious view of the Bible's teachings about predestination and foreknowledge shows that the Bible ties itself up in inextricable knots about this subject. It basically contradicts itself with different messages on the subject depending on which view one is arguing from.

I still don't see how a rational argument can be made that despite an omniscient God knowing everything about us and our destiny before our birth, we still have capability to bend destiny to our will.
That's some serious logical gymnastics.

Where on this thread have you read a remark saying "...we have the capability to bend destiny to our will"

Obi1kenobi:
It doesn't matter if I woke up tomorrow morning and deliberately swallowed poison and died.
The same God that foresaw events at the very end of time as we know it must still have foreseen the tragic destiny for me. It doesn't matter what I do.
He'd still have foreseen it happening.

First correcting your remark in blue above which repeated in the quotes below:
"...God that foresaw events at the very end of time as we know it must still have foreseen the tragic destiny for me"

God sees events' end from the beginning, and not "God that foresaw events at the very end of time"
Its like seeing the beginning, the end and all thats in between at once. All three, together seen, at the same time, in a flash as it were.
This isnt nitpicking but God forseeing ends from their beginnings is monumental different to "God foreseeing events at the very end of time"

It does matter bro, because that is the beauty of God respecting ones right of existence.
It simply is about God honouring ones right to life and God not violating that right by "aborting" before one's time.
Comes down to, God restraining Himself inspite of foreknowing that choice (i.e. the suicidal choice "tomorrow'')
Selves may not intertwine, but lives do. Everyone has a right to life, and everyones right to live that life is part of the master plan

Obi1kenobi:
Which almost makes life somewhat pointless as far as the salvation race is concerned

One interesting thing about new found belief/disbelief is how radically your views change on every topic imaginable once you take the step to the other side of the belief. It's like a disturbed stone that starts an avalanche and everything comes toppling over.
If you became an atheist tomorrow and you looked back on this subject, you'd find your current views somewhat ridiculous.

Also every one is partaking in one race or the other.
If it isnt the salvation race, it might be the rat race
Out of the two, the race which makes life somewhat pointless and vanity upon vanity, is obvious and glaringly recognisable.