Are you trying to call the prophet a liar in which you claimed you are following the religion Adam. Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (PBUT). The prophet said something and you trying to turn it to something else.

So you don't know that eyes fornicate huh? What of looking at a woman lustfully? What of your legs that goes to where you fornicate? Legs and your private part answer that Common, that is under 'eyes' What was your intention when you looked at her? First look is permitted and the second one is sin.

Now, to expose the meaninglessness of your literal interpretation, could you explain why "first look is permitted and second one is sin"? As you attempt to answer, you should think a wee bit about the meaning of "first look" and "second look"; think if these are meant to be literal. Again, think about whether it is impossible to "fornicate" (in the sense you meant it) on the first look; think about the possibility of the "second look" being chaste and Godly. If you're able to sort through these, you may have done youself some good.

I still don't know why you asked this question when I gave you hadith on shaking hands with a woman
Are you saying that the holy prophet lied? Nimshi, come out and tell your stand.

No, I have not claimed that the Prophet lied; where did that come from? Why're you making up claims you wish to disprove?? I have only claimed that the proposition that "the Prophet did not shake a woman's hand" is absurd. Sorry, but, are you challneged at simple reasoning, and clear statements? I added a (rather playful, I suppose) hint to why this proposition - as stated - ought to be modified for it to be true; it is presently obvious, yet, you missed it. When making claims, one ought to be as clear as possible to protect the claim from elementary attacks. The claim that the Prophet never shook any woman's hand is patently absurd, and based on an elemenatary assumption. If you don't see why, then I' am unable to help you at this time.

.You claimed to be a Muslim but your posts didnt portray you as a Muslim and I even think the best thing to do is to quit arguing with you because you argue without backing it up with Qyran or Hadith. Do you have it somewhere where he did that and it seems you didnt go through the link I supplied.

First off: I think you have at least a slight reading comprehension problem. Now, I will not necessarily be going to all links you supply. And, I do refer to Al Quran; where have you been? And, look, I've even have been requested to tone down on the Arabic words; I have a very modest knowledge of Arabic, but the use of these make sense if they are understood; discussion should be to make things clear. And if I don't explicitly make references, it is probably because I understand them in principle. I am happy to say I have not learned by cramming things. As to the rest of your words, they're as absurd as any claims you've tried to make on these pages about me.

Actions would be judged according to intention.

By whom? This is - I'm quite sorry to say - quite a foolish assertion.

Quran 36 v 65: This day We shall seal up their mouths and their hands will speak to us and their legs will bear witness to what they used to earn.

T[b]hen, his body parts will be talking, and they will not hide anything of his deeds. Thereafter, he will rebuke them (body parts) for saying all they had said and witnessed. Their (body parts) reply will be[/b]:

Quran 41 v 21: , Allah has caused us to speak, and He created you the first time and to Him you are made to return.

And you interpret all these literally? What a shame (I wouldn't say 'pity', but it's quite a susbtitute there).

You may still call the above verses lie as well just like you did to the Hadith. A muslim indeed

Bigot indeed.

You're one of those loud voices who attempt to bring disgrace to Islam; as more people of faith who are decent and have been exposed to the world get involved, Muslims like you will be puched backward. You do not represent Islam, you defame Islam and give decent Muslims a bad name.

ayinba1:

@nimshi

I've asked before what exactly you aim for on these Islamic threads. Some non muslims keepp refering to you as a muslim. I am yet to find ONE post where you said. "I am a MUSLIM"

And, why should I do this for your benefit?

If I did, would you stop the smears?

If I don't, does it make me any less a Muslim?

It's useful for you to think through things before putting finger to keyboard.

Yes, I see you have posted the definition of imitate, In this case of describing what a true muslim man should be/not be, it means copying feminine xtics. Islam is simple, but you are free to twist it whichever way you like. You would not be the first.

No; I tried to show you that the word "imitate" has more than one meaning. You should appreciate that. Of course, you're free to choose which suits our purpose, but you're not free to claim another is wrong for taking a meaning supported by context. I would think that was elementary and clear.

Ask for the tafsir of "men imitating women" and see if acts of piety are included in what you should not copy. But, I'm sure you know the answer already.

I believe I do. My post was to speak to the issue beneath the treatment of women as second-class citizens, and to be clear that there are women in Isma who are way much more accomplished than many men.

Again, Oh Allah, I seek refuge against knowledge which is of no benefit to me, AMIN

How ould you know knowledge which is of no benefit if you're unable to think things through yourself? There's something more important that knowledge itself. Pray that you find/have it.

@Nimshi

You are not very different from Davidylan. The fact is you have not at any point declared that you are a muslim. If you say what you are, your posts can be viewed from that angle. Not just for my benefit, but for every viewer's.

See, I am a muslim, so I am biased. If something is stated in the Quran, I will never post against it, even if I do not understand it yet. So I am not afraid for anyone to know that I am a muslim and they can read my posts with that at the back of their minds.

You are also very insultive, from the very first post that I saw from you responding to someone on the Islamic boards, if one disagrees with you, you regard the person's thinking as quite inferior to yours.

Nimshi:


It's useful for you to think through things before putting finger to keyboard.

Well oh smart and mighty nimshi, contrary to your thought, I think very well before posting.

Nimshi:

I believe I do. My post was to speak to the issue beneath the treatment of women as second-class citizens, and to be clear that there are women in Isma who are way much more accomplished than many men.

No point in the post presented women as second class citizens, how did "do not imitate women" suddenly transform women to 2nd class citizens? When it is said that "women should not imitate men, does it make men 2nd class citizens too?"

Please do not try to introduce things that are unIslamic into Islam, Not that you'll be the first, just that there is no gain in it.

Nimshi:


How ould you know knowledge which is of no benefit if you're unable to think things through yourself? There's something more important that knowledge itself. Pray that you find/have it.

My prayer is to Allah the Lord of the worlds. Gain western education BUT save your brain from all the suds and cleansing agents. There is nothing happening in the world today that is news to Allah.

Oh Allah, I seek refuge against knowledge that is of noo benefit to me, AMIN

ayinba1:

@Nimshi

You are not very different from Davidylan.

In what sense do you make this assertion? It is quite a stretch to write this about two people. Davidylan I have disagreed with, many times; but I have admired his position when appropriate. That he is a Christian does not mean we couldn't agree on issues religious, but I am on firm ground to say that we disagree more than we agree. So, again, why do you write so?

The fact is you have not at any point declared that you are a muslim. If you say what you are, your posts can be viewed from that angle. Not just for my benefit, but for every viewer's.

First, this: any 'viewer' who evaluates these opinions based on religion alone has quite a narrow view. And, you're failing to respond to my questions about the meaning fo the declaration you seek.

You want me to write that I am a Muslim.

If I did, will all my submissions become more acceptable?

Will my submissions escape scrutiny?

What is the advantage?

What is the difference?

And, again:

If I did, would you stop the smears?

If I don't, does it make me any less a Muslim?

See, I am a muslim, so I am biased.

It has been your choice to make this declaration this openly; will you respect the choice of anyone who wishes not to do as you have done? And, everyone is biased; proving that is elementary.

If something is stated in the Quran, I will never post against it, even if I do not understand it yet.

This is not new. there are Muslims, Christians, and other people of faith who hold the same position as you do. But, do you think all Muslims are like you (in this matter)? Or, does disagreement with you on this matter invalidate one's faith?

To tell you my own opinion: let's say I read in Al Quran that 2+2 = 10, will I post against it? Well, I may or may not come out of the blues to make such a post, but if the situation warrants it, and if discussion warrants it, then I will not be afraid to state that in the field of integers and numbers and arithmetic, 2+2=10 is absurd. I may qualify my view with the comment that may be in 'heavenly arithmetic' 2+2 could be 10, but, see, I wouldn't try to support the proposition; I'd rather be quiet, and, should I have to say something, I definitely would not speak in favour.

I suppose that you would take a different position, would you?

So I am not afraid for anyone to know that I am a muslim and they can read my posts with that at the back of their minds.

I'm certain you don't state in every post you make that you're Muslim. And, your posts stand irrespective of any claim you make; one could peek through a little window into your mind from what you post, but would only take you at your word as to whether you're a Muslim. Yet, there's nothing "Muslim" about clear reasoning; even in the House of Islam, your views don't represent the views of all Muslims, so, what's the use of colouring your views with religion? And, do you suppose that people who don't declare their faiths on this board do not because they are afraid? And, suppose they are afraid, so what?

You are also very insultive, from the very first post that I saw from you responding to someone on the Islamic boards, if one disagrees with you, you regard the person's thinking as quite inferior to yours.

Could you give an example of where I have shown the sort of arrogance you describe above? Could you give an example where I have regarded a person's opinion as inferior only because I disagree? Please, quickly, find such as example. I beg you to.

Here is my claim: if I have insulting, it is because I have been insulted. If I have sounded harsh, it is because there have been probable cause. Yet, since I'm not perfect, I may have overreacted, and I will apologise were such to be brought to my notice. I may also have posted in annoyance or in defence. But what you describe above, I can be certain I am not. I am very used to accommodating different opinions, and in fact, celebrating this difference.

Well oh smart and mighty nimshi, contrary to your thought, I think very well before posting.

Here, you're demostrating and displaying a clear as crystal persona; I will not characterise it, but those who know what it is would take good note. Enough said.

No point in the post presented women as second class citizens, how did "do not imitate women" suddenly transform women to 2nd class citizens? When it is said that "women should not imitate men, does it make men 2nd class citizens too?"

Then the advice should be relevant that you see beyond the tip of your nose. Here, if it may be of some help: the imitator is thought of as being 'inferior'; beneath the admonition not to imitate women is this unspoken, yet well understood, thought. And the history of women in all Abrahamic Faiths is well known; again, enough said.

Please do not try to introduce things that are unIslamic into Islam, Not that you'll be the first, just that there is no gain in it.

Like what? Unlike you - and the other loud voices on this board - I don't claim to speak for Islam; my contention is that you people are only loud voices, and that you do not speak for all Muslims; your views are yours. Why is this so difficult to understand?

My prayer is to Allah the Lord of the worlds. Gain western education BUT save your brain from all the suds and cleansing agents. There is nothing happening in the world today that is news to Allah.

In stating the obvious, you miss what's relevant to you. "There is nothing happening in the world today that is news to Allah", so, are you Almighty Allah? Almighty Allah does not need to educated; you, however, need to be continually educated; more than that, you need to use your powers of reasoning so that you don't lose them; Almighty Allah has played His part, will you play yours? Western education is a means to an end; it is only a tool, and a very useful tool; why not use a very good tool? And, one way to sharpen your reasoning powers is to entertain and engage dissenting opinion, not getting yourself imprisoned in your own little parallel universe. This is why I will engage Christians, Buddhists, and atheists and people of alternative religions. It is sad for me to note that at least on this board, there's much more brain fibre to be exercised in discussion with the Christians and the atheists than one would find in the section for Muslims; do you know why this is??

Oh Allah, I seek refuge against knowledge that is of noo benefit to me, AMIN

Oh Almighty Allah, I seek you to bless me with wisdom and understanding, to be able to appreciate all of Your creation, even those I may find disagreeable; to be able to entertain ideas from Your universe, to be able to sharpen the gifts You have graciously bestowed upon me, to find peace, and knowledge, and the good desires of my heart, and to be humble; for me, this me, I am flesh and blood; melting flesh, and pounding blood.
.

.

@nimshi

Since I did not address it the first time, which/what smears are you refering to?

I have not implied that people who do not declare their religion are afraid, what concerns me about your posts is that instead of making meaningful contributions to what any one posts as a muslim, you try to interprete it in a way that is contrary to the intended message. This is how it appears to many readers, what your intention is, is what I ask.

Again, on not imitating women, I say it refers to copying feminine traits and has nothing to do with acts of piety that are gender neutral. Why do you insist on a different "unspoken, yet well understood, thought"?

Nimshi:


In stating the obvious, you miss what's relevant to you. "There is nothing happening in the world today that is news to Allah", so, are you Almighty Allah? Almighty Allah does not need to educated; you, however, need to be continually educated; more than that, you need to use your powers of reasoning so that you don't lose them; Almighty Allah has played His part, will you play yours? Western education is a means to an end; it is only a tool, and a very useful tool; why not use a very good tool? And, one way to sharpen your reasoning powers is to entertain and engage dissenting opinion, not getting yourself imprisoned in your own little parallel universe. This is why I will engage Christians, Buddhists, and atheists and people of alternative religions. It is sad for me to note that at least on this board, there's much more brain fibre to be exercised in discussion with the Christians and the atheists than one would find in the section for Muslims; do you know why this is??

.

With hope that you understood me before you posted, I have not advocated not obtaining "western education". I have only cautioned against getting yourself brainwashed. And tell me, what is "news" to Allah, Oh nimshi.

Please, continue to engage xtians and Buddhists etc, the question is, what value do you add in your engagement? to your life? to theirs? Or is it just an exercise to show who's smarter?

ayinba1:

@nimshi
Since I did not address it the first time, which/what smears are you refering to?

Since you have asked, then we could get specific: it is this particular thing of applying the litmus test of a declaration of faith, and implying - without so much as veiling it - that one isn't what one appears to be, and demanding, - against all decency - that one makes a declaration of faith for the benefit of you and those who appear to share your view. It is to these that I have asked the questions: why? (See the rest of the related questions in my last post).

I have not implied that people who do not declare their religion are afraid,

You may say that, yet, you have declared that you're not afraid to say you're a Muslim. Were fear to be off the table as a motivation, why would your statement be relevant in this discussion except for its use for drawing a contrast?

. . . what concerns me about your posts is that instead of making meaningful contributions to what any one posts as a muslim, you try to interprete it in a way that is contrary to the intended message.

You're fine to interpret my posts as you please, but, where is this 'contrary interpretation'? And, isn't it beyond hubris to suggest that one does not make meaningful contributions? Who are you to make such a statement? If I read meanings to your statements and those of others, why do you not accept in in good faith and correct the misconceptions? Why do you impute bad motives? I don't post on the rub-my-back-and-I-rub-your-back threads; I am attracted to contemporary issues, and misconceptions fostered by the media regarding the Islamic faith; this is my choice, and there's plenty of these on this board, including quite exceptionally troubling things coming from the voices claiming to speak for Islam. If there're subtle meanings, I go after them if I'm able to identify them; apparently, you don't appear to like it; but why should I post the way it pleases you? If you find specific posts disagreeable, why don't you get specific about those posts?

This is how it appears to many readers, what your intention is, is what I ask.

Now that you purport to speak for "many readers", why don't you also mention who these readers are? Why don't you all get specific? the method is simple: make a direct reference to the "offending" post, and be clear why you consider it "bad"; this, as I know, is the way of discussion.

Again, on not imitating women, I say it refers to copying feminine traits and has nothing to do with acts of piety that are gender neutral. Why do you insist on a different "unspoken, yet well understood, thought"?

Did I begrudge your interpretation? Did I say your interpretation is wrong? No, and no. I only added to the discussion by posting the possibility of another interpretation. Your interpretation was hinged on the meaning of an Enlish word, and I made a post to expand the discussion, that the English word has more than one meaning, and attempted to tie it to the historical mistreatment of women evident in Islam (and the other Abrahamic Faiths). I did not claim that The Prophet mistreated women, but the claim (unwritten, though inherent), will be that women have been systematically disenfranchised in the faith and other faiths. That is is 'unspoken, yet well-understood, thought'; do you have a difference of opinion on that?

With hope that you understood me before you posted, I have not advocated not obtaining "western education". I have only cautioned against getting yourself brainwashed.

First of all, "brainwash" is a very inappropriate word to use here. No one is being forcibly indoctrinated. Quite the contrary. And though I agreed that Western education could be a good tool, what is at work - and what should be at work, isn't Western education; logic, rationality, and clarity isn't particularly Western; I could argue that it is Middle-Eastern, Arabic even, before been Western; so, what's the hot air about? And, who are you to caution one about indoctrination? You are presenting yourself as intolerant of views contrary to yours, what moral leverage do you have to submit this caution? I am of the firm belief that Islam 'can be reconciled with modernity, human rights,' and things like that. How does one do this without getting involved with the other side, or without entertaining and confronting dissenting opinion?

And tell me, what is "news" to Allah, Oh nimshi.

This has already been answered; and in case you missed it, here, again: nothing. So, are you happy now?

Please, continue to engage xtians and Buddhists etc, the question is, what value do you add in your engagement?

That you ask this question is a palpable shame in itself. I will not bother to answer this one in great detail, only because the answer has been given in my previous post. Here is a hint: almost everyday, I meet people of other faiths, and quite often, I have to confront misconceptions about Islam. Included in the peoples I meet are Christians (of course, they're plentiful an everywhere), Buddhists (of which I have many friends; heck, I had lunch with a Buddhist only yesterday), and atheists (plentiful too, these ones, and quite interesting). Aren't they all God's creations too? Aren't they humans too? don't they have motivations too? I am happy to say that one of the things that make me the happiest, is the understanding that not one person can speak for all Muslims, and they they not trust the loudest voices of violence that purport to represent Islam. We discuss many issues, including the most troubling issues of violence that those who wish to defame Islam have hung over the faith like a dark cloud. If I have succeeded in convincing these that Islam isn't a religion of violence, then I am more than happy to incur anyone's disafeection. And if you do not see any value to this sort of interaction, then I wish you good speed.

to your life? to theirs? Or is it just an exercise to show who's smarter?

You have my answer above. And, I make bold to write that what's eating at your core is surfacing. I only advice that you could rise beyond it, you shouldn't let it dominate you. It's not a good thing to harbour in the mind. This is afterall, a faceless board. And, to avoid any doubt, yes: I think the people I deal with are smart people. And if they perceive me as "smart", that is a complement that wouldn't do much harm. I am humble enough to let them know this is not unique, that there're several other smart people, including Muslims (and non-Muslims who understand the faith quite well), who're too busy to be engaging in these discussions.

Now, I have responded to all your post. Where is the response to mine? Where are the responses to the questions and issues I have raised in my post? Or, is your aim just to vilify, and to smear? You can't sharpen what Almighty Allah gave you if you don't use it; and you don't have to be right all the time.
.

@nimshi

I will not be inserting your quotes here. Thank you for your lenghty response. You will not surprise me, that will be really hard.

I asked if you are a muslim, you give me lenghty paragraphs; and say "this is a smear, and against all decency" my dear, it is a question; while you are free to not answer it, I am also free to draw attention to the fact that you have consistently evaded the question.

I state that I do not say you or anyone is afraid, if they do not declare that they are muslims, I spoke for myself, you still have an issue with that, great too

Your contributions have mostly been non meaningful to the topic at hand as far as I am concerned. You ask who am I to make this statement? It is not clear, I ask you, you dribble around the question. Still not a meaningful contribution.


I found a number of "who are you?s" in your post. It is not personal. You never take permission before you twist what other people post so why are you insisting on knowing who I am? What I have posted are my frank observations about you from your posts; nothing you have posted since then has changed my view. You are justifying your acts which is fine, you are free and so am I.

What responses are you waiting for from me? If you say you are a muslim, I would believe that you need more education (I do too) and would tell you so. If you are not a muslim, I will let the likes of David and co know so that they do not continue to tout you as one.

If you consider the question about being a muslim (which still remains unanswered) a smear, sorry I cannot help you there. I am not asking anymore but I will refer to it as one that remains unanswered.

@Nimshi

We have a difference in the understanding of Mut'a marriage. I don't deny you your position, although I am convinced you are wrong. Why do you seek to invalidate those views simply because you disagree with them? You mention Hadiths, yet, I have made Al Quran my reference, and have supported it with expositions from scholars from both and all sides. What more do you want? If you don't agree with someone, you don't force your view on them; you do what all reasonable people do, which is: appeal to reason, and persuade by some other means, not got out on a limb and expose yourself as a bigot.

Do you care to show me your stand on Mutta from the Quran and scholars you claimed?

Could you educate me on what is wrong with listening to Asa's delightful music. Have you? It isn't perfect music (I can, of course suggest improvements in the instrumentation, ) but it is excellent music. Have you listened to it? If not, then who are you to criticise sth you have not examined? Tell me, what is the problem with a faithful Muslim listening to Asa's music? Tell me exactly what the problem is, and tell exactly how that invalidates the Islamic Faith? Do you listen to music? If no, why not? If yes, which? And whatever your answers are, you take a stab at explaining your comments as quoted above.

I wouldnt discuss much here with you since you love resorting to ranting whenever issues is being tendered. Now, go read the permissiblity of Music in Islam and when you are done, we take a look at different kinds of music, Haram, Halal, Makruuh, permissible, etc. .

Now again, what is Asa's music all about and when you provide answer, when we would first see if its Islamic or not and when done with that, we look at it from Islamic perspective.

Now, to expose the meaninglessness of your literal interpretation, could you explain why "first look is permitted and second one is sin"? As you attempt to answer, you should think a wee bit about the meaning of "first look" and "second look"; think if these are meant to be literal. Again, think about whether it is impossible to "fornicate" (in the sense you meant it) on the first look; think about the possibility of the "second look" being chaste and Godly. If you're able to sort through these, you may have done youself some good.

I don't argue blindly just like you might have been doing. I have provided you Hadith from the sayings of the prophet which you called a lie. I noticed that you have been denying most of what I have been serving you but havent been able to back it up with Hadith,Quran, Nimshi's saying or what have you. I noticed that you decided to ignore my posts but went picking ignorantly at my words on the first and second look. I wouldnt know what seems difficult for you to grab here.

In case you missed, this is your post which I responded to:

Come to think of it, aren't there exceptions? If you're to rescue a drowning woman from Bar Beach, say, wouldn't that necessitate lots of body contact? Or, would a decent human be daft enough to pass because of, er, body contact?? This, is absurd. This whole thing.

I replied you:

Actions would be judged according to intention. Even in Mecca, Women and Men do encounter body contacts.

But you again showed your limited knowledge thus:

By whom? This is - I'm quite sorry to say - quite a foolish assertion.

I even doubt if you are aware of the person that said the above and if you could provide any proof be it from the Quran or Hadith to counter my post above, then we would see who is really following a foolish assertion but if you could and resort to your normal beating about the bush and rantings, then Babs would not be able to help you any further.

I posted thus:

In case you don't know, your mouth would not speak for you on that day. It would be locked:javascript:void(0);
Shocked

Quran 36 v 65: This day We shall seal up their mouths and their hands will speak to us and their legs will bear witness to what they used to earn.

Then, his body parts will be talking, and they will not hide anything of his deeds. Thereafter, he will rebuke them (body parts) for saying all they had said and witnessed. Their (body parts) reply will be:

Quran 41 v 21: , Allah has caused us to speak, and He created you the first time and to Him you are made to return.

You still showed your limited Islamic knowledge:

And you interpret all these literally? What a shame (I wouldn't say 'pity', but it's quite a susbtitute there).

Reading from my quote up, you would see that I gave you verses from the Quran and Hadith to back it up as well but all you could do was making denial which you couldnt provide Nimshi Hadith to provide rebuttal to the Quranic verses and the Hadith. If you think that you are up to Islamic discussion, then do away with your 'denial', sit tight and back your posts with Quranic verses and Hadith and not your baseless denials. Do you care to give me your own meaning probably from Nimshi's book or sayings?

To further exposed you in which you ignored pretending that you didnt see it:

You may still call the above verses lie as well just like you did to the Hadith. A muslim indeed Cool

Nimshi, you should be smart enough and do away with your fruitless arguments. I provided you Quranic verses and Hadith which you called a lie. Its now left for you to provide me the meaning of those hadiths and provide your own Hadith (Nimshi's Hadith) to counter the above verses.

Muslim Indeed.

No, I have not claimed that the Prophet lied; where did that come from? Why're you making up claims you wish to disprove?? I have only claimed that the proposition that "the Prophet did not shake a woman's hand" is absurd. Sorry, but, are you challneged at simple reasoning, and clear statements? I added a (rather playful, I suppose) hint to why this proposition - as stated - ought to be modified for it to be true; it is presently obvious, yet, you missed it. When making claims, one ought to be as clear as possible to protect the claim from elementary attacks. The claim that the Prophet never shook any woman's hand is patently absurd, and based on an elemenatary assumption. If you don't see why, then I' am unable to help you at this time.

This is your quote:

T[b]his is a most definitely a lie[/b]. The Prophet never touched the hand of a woman?

Just like my earlier post, you are fond of arguing blindly but with nothing to back it up. I gave you Hadith here but all did was providing denial with nothing to substantiate it. I gave you the sayings of the prophet which you denied and you should provide where he did what you claimed.

First off: I think you have at least a slight reading comprehension problem. Now, I will not necessarily be going to all links you supply. And, I do refer to Al Quran; where have you been? And, look, I've even have been requested to tone down on the Arabic words; I have a very modest knowledge of Arabic, but the use of these make sense if they are understood; discussion should be to make things clear. And if I don't explicitly make references, it is probably because I understand them in principle. I am happy to say I have not learned by cramming things. As to the rest of your words, they're as absurd as any claims you've tried to make on these pages about me.

Its not a big deal learning Arabic but what matter most is the application of what you learned so far which I found out that your lack Islamic knowledge. You prefer making denials but have not been showing sayings, facts from the Quran or Hadith to back it up.

Bigot indeed.

Never mind. You are being exposed. A word of advice: don't just argue or deny Quranic verses or Hadiths but provide your rebuttal be it from Nimshi's book or sayings. (Muslim indeed).

You're one of those loud voices who attempt to bring disgrace to Islam; as more people of faith who are decent and have been exposed to the world get involved, Muslims like you will be puched backward. You do not represent Islam, you defame Islam and give decent Muslims a bad name.

Firstly, I am even laughing at your infantile quote . I can't imagine that someone is here claiming that someone would be punched backward when you have been dealt a blow. You have been given facts from the Quran, Hadtihs but rather than provide intelligent discussions, you resort to your normal noise making, denials and lacked proper understanding of what Islam is and resort to calling the prophet's sayings a lie and failed in providing facts from Nimshi's book or Nimshi's sayings.

Secondly, do you care to show me where I have attempted to bring disgrace to Islam? I am sure you would never be able to do that. My posts speaks for me. You may go to search and google out Babs, read all about Babs, his posts and when you are done, you come and have a discussion with me from any faith, be it Islam or whatever you worship backing same with facts and not your normal denials.

Do you still care to show me where I defame Islam and if you couldnt then, we would see who have been doing that.

You may go to all my posts, read for understanding and counter me where you deem fit providing your facts from Nimshi's book or sayings

I am a Muslim and very proud to say that and not like you that claimed to be but keep going against Quranic, Hadith but couldnt provide any reasonable rebuttal and went gaga when asked about declaration of faith and your stand towards Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her)

A word of advice, quit arguing blindly without facts, tender me facts from the Quran or Hadith and you have Babs to discuss with.

I am sure you would come back real hot but who cares. Afterall, you have been exposed of you usual denials that lacks intelligent discussion.

ayinba1:

@nimshi

What responses are you waiting for from me? If you say you are a muslim, I would believe that you need more education (I do too) and would tell you so. If you are not a muslim, I will let the likes of David and co know so that they do not continue to tout you as one.

DavidDylan is a star indeed.

@Nimshi

You are not very different from Davidylan. The fact is you have not at any point declared that you are a muslim. If you say what you are, your posts can be viewed from that angle. Not just for my benefit, but for every viewer's.

psssst!
nimshi bashing in progress!

Nimshi is making so much sense.

@Nimshi: « #32 on: October 22, 2008, 05:28 AM »

Quote
Actions would be judged according to intention.


By whom? This is - I'm quite sorry to say - quite a foolish assertion.

Who will Judge actions? Allah. Is there any other "real Judge?"

Quote
Quran 36 v 65: This day We shall seal up their mouths and their hands will speak to us and their legs will bear witness to what they used to earn.

Then, his body parts will be talking, and they will not hide anything of his deeds. Thereafter, he will rebuke them (body parts) for saying all they had said and witnessed. Their (body parts) reply will be:

Quran 41 v 21: , Allah has caused us to speak, and He created you the first time and to Him you are made to return.

And you interpret all these literally? What a shame (I wouldn't say 'pity', but it's quite a susbtitute there).

Is there any need for interpretation? Is the text not clear enough? In Islam, the above are what is known as Mutashabiha. It real has no need for interpretation. It is in the same quality of information like commandment for Salah! It is literal. There is no need for interpretation.

Nimshi, if you take Qur'an to be allegorical, then we all have problems with your "Islam!" But we are not the important person if this is the cae. You are. Ours is to simply talk to you about it. Hopefully, your heart will be able to accept it.

If you find this above verse impossible, then do you find "creation of Adam" as a completely new specie, and not "evolution" from somthing like how the "evolutionist" wants us to believe plausible? For me if you can accept the plausibility of it, and I believe it is not just palusible, but it is the way he was made to come about, then I think you should argue with yourself; which is easier to do Adam's creation or the parts of the body talking in the day of Judgement instead of the mouth, to give accounts of what their "owner," the man/woman had used them to do in in the life! If the actions were evil actions, do you expect Allah who is Just to meter out Justice, without the guilty "Incriminating him/herself?"

Even the guilty is ferret out, by evidence which leads to his human society's finding him culpable. If humans can find a way to get the guilty's account doubtful, how then does Allah put evidences against the guilty, except that He had sent evereyone of us with the elements that will "witness" against at the Trial? Those evidential elemnts or the bubby-traps against the guilty are our "Selves!" So your mouth as part of sign of His Ability to do all things is sealed but those parts that never spoke a word are now empowered to recount their actions!

Pay attention Nimshi, etc, including me!

@Reindeer

psssst!
nimshi bashing in progress! Wink

Yes he makes denials but has never been able to provide facts.

@Pepperspray

Nimshi is making so much sense.

Yes he is making so much sense with his denials, denying Quranic verses, Hadiths but couldnt provide his facts from his books. A Muslim indeed

babs787:

@Pepperspray

Yes he is making so much sense with his denials, denying Quranic verses, Hadiths but couldnt provide his facts from his books. A Muslim indeed

Why are you rejecting a brother that is a fellow muslim faithful? Why should he claim Islam when he is not one?. He may not be a practicing muslim therefore may not be able to cite any quran verse. There are so many Christians that rarely open the bible but they will always tell you they are christians,

@Pepperspray

Why are you rejecting a brother that is a fellow muslim faithful?

I am not rejecting his claim of being a Muslim but pointing out to him and the NL that Nimshi is not a Muslim because his reasoning and denials exposed him.

Why should he claim Islam when he is not one?.

He may claim that in order to mislead many but he would not be able to do that Insha Allah. His posts speaks for him.

He may not be a practicing muslim therefore may not be able to cite any quran verse.

Still, that doesnt mean that you should called Allah, prophet Muhammads' sayings lies.

For you to call someone a muslim, some things be in that person and not claiming to be muslim and you deny the words of the prophet and your creator.

Also for you to be called a Muslim, among other things, ARTICLES OF FAITH must be followed and you must believe in them. Among the articles of faith is Believe in Allah, Believe in His prophets, believe in His books etc but going through Nimshi's posts, you wouldnt be needing another person to interprete it for you that HE IS NOT A MUSLIM because he went against the aforementioned and called ALLAH'S words and that of the prophet (HADITH) lies.

I know he must have seen this thread and my post but ignored it because he would be exposed further.

It seems he is ignorant of Islam and here I am to discuss Islam with him with insights into the Quran, Hadith and Sunnah of the Holy Prophet.

There are so many Christians that rarely open the bible but they will always tell you they are christians,

Fine I love your quote. It is a fact that there are Christians that have never opened the bible but still DO NOT GO AGAINST THE VERSES AND CALL THE WORD OF GOD LIES just like he has been caught doing on several occasions.

@PepERSprAY

Why are you rejecting a brother that is a fellow muslim faithful?

Everybody can claim a Muslim and provides by some reasoning to deceive people like Nimshi. The way that Nimshi is doing to distract here by his reasoning ideas by mixing the ways he think a lots of information can he acquire and apply it by his reasoning scheme to believe him. This kind of people living by rational thinking is noteworthy to us. He doesn’t carry out the value of Islamic belief and defying what in the Quran and Hadith must be follows.

From babs787, who's exercising himself on determining another's faith:

I know he must have seen this thread and my post but ignored it because he would be exposed further.

Another example of nonsensical drooling. I never saw your reply until you redirected from the other thread. You make such foolish claims and assertions one must wonder if you aren't deluded,

Pepper wrote: He may not be a practicing muslim therefore may not be able to cite any quran verse.

Your reasoning here is sound. I am quite able to cite verses in Al Quran. I will support positions with the correct citations - as I have done in the Mut'a discussion - when necessary. But I will do that if the issue couldn't be addressed from a common-sensical angle; I can tell you there's lots of cramming and simple recitation and little of thinking things through; that is why many can be exploited for, say, political ends: because they hang on every word they hear from a religious authority, unable to - being unused to - thinking for themselves. Yet, it is on this board that one poster noted that my posts contain a lot of "strange" (read: unfamiliar Arabic) words; this comment informed a more relaxed disposition. What's the use of posting things others find difficult to understand?
.

From babs787, the exerciser: Still, that doesnt mean that you should called Allah, prophet Muhammads' sayings lies

Context?

Where have I done that?? Where have I called Almighty Allah a liar?

Where have I called the Prophet a liar??
.

More from poster babs787

babs787 wrote: Do you care to show me your stand on Mutta from the Quran and scholars you claimed?

If you want to discuss Mut'a marriage, then let's go back to the thread where we've had some extensive discussion on Mut'a already, or, perhaps open a new thread; I will oblige you your request. Perhaps, it may be helpful to reread that thread? I have already given the basic surah/ayat from Al Quran; as to the supporting opinion and interpretations from scholars, I can assure you there's no shortage of those.

babs787 wrote: Now, go read the permissiblity of Music in Islam and when you are done, we take a look at different kinds of music, Haram, Halal, Makruuh, permissible, etc. . Now again, what is Asa's music all about and when you provide answer, when we would first see if its Islamic or not and when done with that, we look at it from Islamic perspective.

You diminish your response by referring to mine as a rant, and then going ahead to ask more about it. And, I wonder: so you don't know about Asa's music, yet, you condemn it? Why should I now take you seriously, having come to a conclusion about sth you've not examined? Perhaps Asa's kind of music is haram to you; it is permissible for me. And, as far as her talent has been published, I will recommend it for anyone wanting a peek into trado-contemporary stuff from South-Western Nigeria. What's your problem with that?

babs787 wrote: I don't argue blindly just like you might have been doing. I have provided you Hadith from the sayings of the prophet which you called a lie. I noticed that you have been denying most of what I have been serving you but havent been able to back it up with Hadith,Quran, Nimshi's saying or what have you. I noticed that you decided to ignore my posts but went picking ignorantly at my words on the first and second look. I wouldnt know what seems difficult for you to grab here.

Again, your response is diminished by your claim that one argues blindly. Here's sth you don't see: if you write a post with 1 million words, and I've chosen to repond to 5 words out of those, shouldn't you assume that I at least agree with or do not find any issues with the rest? This is elementary, and it should be at the back of your mind when writing responses. I will not be having the time to respond to everything you write, or to check every reference you make; but I'll pick out things that're strikingly unclear to me (they may be unclear because you've been unclear, or because I may have misunderstood them); yet, that shouldn't invite unbecoming words from you. If you agree with everything I write, then you're not really useful to me.
.

More responses to poster babs787:

babs787 wrote: Its not a big deal learning Arabic but what matter most is the application of what you learned so far which I found out that your lack Islamic knowledge. You prefer making denials but have not been showing sayings, facts from the Quran or Hadith to back it up.

I agree it's not a big deal; but I made that statement because someone did accuse me of not using Arabic words and not making references. Knowledge and its application are both important, but more important are the understanding of principles behind what is knowledge. In the real world, there're many issues outside what is written in Al Quran and reported Haddiths and Sunnah; you don't get everything from cramming and reciting.

I had written that you bring disgrace to Islam. To the extent that you're unable to reason on very elementary matters, that claim remains true. Let's deal with a present example: "The Prophet never touched the hand of a woman". This claim, as written and presented, is false. If I find you in any company attempting to affirm this statement, I'll simply take you as an arrogant ignoramus, and anyone with any sense should too. For it to be true, you need to refine the claim; yet, here we are, wasting time and bandwidth discussing this very straightforward thing. Since you claim to be Muslim, and you fail to reason in the simplest matters, you bring disgrace. How's that difficult to understand? When cramming Hadiths, and Sunnahs, always make sure you employ your thinking faculties; and don't ever make a claim that's easy to show as false.

Look, babs787, you're who you are; if you have any issues with my views, why don't you start threads with clear/focussed topics and let's examine them? I've no use of your running from pillar to post about issues discussed elsewhere (you've mentioned Mut'a, say, on threads different from the original thread). Your purpose appears to be to claim you're the authentic Muslim; then, get ahead with it. The way to do it is to present issues. For example, you've mentioned sth about the permissibility of music in Islam because I recommended that another poster should listen to Asa's music; why don't you start a thread and lay your argument, and let's see whether my recommendation was unIslamic and designed to mislead?

You also keep repeating this thing about the claim of the Prophet not touching the hand of any woman; on this point, I, again, say, you're a disgrace to Islam and logic. Why would you continue to argue that?

When you have an issue, state it clearly, and succintly; if you write a long, rambling post, or spam the borad with cut/paste stuff, I can assure you I won't have the time to read; you have many such posts around here. But if you're original enough and can arrest my attention, then I'm all yours.

Quit making these random accusations, and let's focus on important issues. There're such being discussed on this board, contemporary issues that're of real value; find them and add to the discussion.
.

With all these going on, olabowale finds a way to chip something in:

olabowale wrote: Who will Judge actions? Allah. Is there any other "real Judge?"

You still manage to miss the point: so, for the sake of 'reward' and punishment in Shar'ia, is Almighty Allah going to come donw to judge intentions and actions? My question was to highlight the "fluid" nature of humans making these types of judgements.

olabowale wrote: Is there any need for interpretation? Is the text not clear enough? In Islam, the above are what is known as Mutashabiha. It real has no need for interpretation. It is in the same quality of information like commandment for Salah! It is literal. There is no need for interpretation.

Oh dear. Educate me  This is not Mutashabihat; it is Muhkamat in my book. Do we have to argue about this?? 20:5 (Allah) Most Gracious is firmly established on the throne (of authority) is a good example of a Mutashabihat. Or, do you want me to supply a scholarly reference to support that? Will you dispute the reference, or will you simply accept?

Note to olabowale: I've become interested in your responses on this thread: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-180616.0.html ; 'll be hoping you return when the thread comes alive again.
.

ok guys this is no more funny

cant we all get along??

mukina the peacemaker

Here you come again to make one feel guilty. But really, I think we could get along; if we all tone down on the rhetoric and witch-hunting. I will, for my part, be civil if my interlocutors are too; but if they choose to attack, they'll be asking for replies in kind.
.

Nimshi

Please you guys must let this argument be . .you are all muslims na

why are you all going on and on


Olabowale and Babs
Please na
let it end

You are all brothers na

Olabowale and Babs
Please na Embarrassed Embarrassed Cry
let it end

You are all brothers na

They rant and get bitter because they don't have the holy spirit in them.
One of the fruits of the holy spirit is love.

Reply to ayinba1

ayinba1: I got redirected from another thread. Here: you claim that I have not answered your questions; but have you answered mine? If you want straightforward discussion from this point on, consider this below:

1) Were I to give you an answer, would the amears stop? Would you (and others) not ask me to prove it? Would you stop imputing bad motives to anything I write? (Those are three questions). Will babs787 and Olabowale do too? Will the others do too? I sense I may have to begin defending whatever I write once I legitimise your first question by answering.

2) I want to tell you that I am not evading the question. "Evade" is the wrong word. Here's what I am doing: I am refusing to answer. Is that clear?? I refuse to answer because for a number of reasons, among which are (a) I don't see why I should make a declaration of faith to any of you here (b) were I to answer, would that stop you people from asking for further proof? I don't mean to be condescending, but if you understand the logic behind identities on discussion boards, you'll get it. If for example I say: "I am Abcde Fghi"; why should anyone believe me? The next logical questions will be to begin an examination of whether the claim is true, and given that we have different views on important matters (e.g. Mut'a marriage), I don't think there's any assurance that I'll ever be able to convince you guys; this is the reason I refuse to go on that road at all. It's all too easy for anyone to declare "I'm a Muslim", or "I'm a Christian", or "I'm a Buddhist"; but I refuse to make any declaration because I don't consider it important. Matters may be different were we to meet in person, in which case you'll probably not have to ask

3) People who have been observant (like yourself, at least here), will note that I have not declared to be Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, or other; you know that; so why are you bothered by David's assertion to the contrary? You can't tell David I'm not a Muslim (and I don't think you would or should), but you could point it out to him that I haven't declared myself on this board to be a Muslim; I may not conform to anyone's preconceived notions, but either way, I am not robbed of whom I am.
.

I dont like the way this thing is going.

as far as i am concerned we are all muslims

why cant you guys just forget this topic once and for all?


must it drag on every thread?

the thread is becoming more personal than logical
i think you guys should slow down and take a breather and get back to the discussion
forego personal issues pls.
let peace reign
i pray the peace of God enters your hearts and give you hearts filled with love.

@nimshi

All you have explained is very clear. You have refused to answer, not evaded the question. And if you take time to read my post, I have answered your questions.

Again, a question is not the same thing as a smear, stop trying to play victim here.

Hopefully, people who wrongly refer to you as a muslim read your post!

mukina2:

I don't like the way this thing is going.

as far as i am concerned we are all muslims

why can't you guys just forget this topic once and for all?


must it drag on every thread?

Other Muslims are denying Nimshi yet you are here accepting him wholeheartedly. Are you sure you are a muslim too?