PepERSprAY:

Other Muslims are denying Nimshi yet you are here accepting him wholeheartedly. Are you sure you are a muslim too?

its not by force to post everywhere

if you got nothing to post then simply click on the back button and vamoose

ayinba1:

@nimshi

All you have explained is very clear. You have refused to answer, not evaded the question.

Good.

And if you take time to read my post, I have answered your questions.

Well, if you say so. . . I got it all laid out in my most recent direct response to yours.

Again, a question is not the same thing as a smear, stop trying to play victim here.

No victim; the comment may no thave been appropriate to your posts, but there are others here who have gone far ahead to make suggestions fitting the description of "smear"

Hopefully, people who wrongly refer to you as a muslim read your post!

No one could reasonably make that claim from anything I've written. My refusal to answer does not mean I am not; the only valid claim would be that I haven't identified/declared myself as one; I'll expect that you'll see the difference.
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PepERSprAY:

Other Muslims are denying Nimshi yet you are here accepting him wholeheartedly. Are you sure you are a muslim too?

She's doing her job as a moderator.

And by the way, it is Nimshi who's at the throat of active Muslim posters.
He/she's decided to be a confusionist around here.

Nimshi

3) People who have been observant (like yourself, at least here), will note that I have not declared to be Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, or other; you know that; so why are you bothered by David's assertion to the contrary? You can't tell David I'm not a Muslim (and I don't think you would or should), but you could point it out to him that I haven't declared myself on this board to be a Muslim; I may not conform to anyone's preconceived notions, but either way, I am not robbed of whom I am

.


How this will affect in your life if you declare to everybody in this forum you faith?. If non of those mentioned faith are not attach to you then you are more allege an atheism and just using such rational things to conform your identity.


Then back to the subject again “Who is a True Muslim”  why “evade” your identity  

@Nimshi and all: « #65 on: Today at 03:34:00 AM »

Quote
Hopefully, people who wrongly refer to you as a muslim read your post!

No one could reasonably make that claim from anything I've written. My refusal to answer does not mean I am not; the only valid claim would be that I haven't identified/declared myself as one; I'll expect that you'll see the difference.

O you who believe! Do not make haram the good of things which Allah has made halal for you, and do not transgress; indeed, Allah does not like transgressors. (5:90). Accordingly, if someone does not accept the commands from the Book of Allah, nor consider them binding, he is a mushrik (As we know concerning Allah's sole right to legislate the halal and haram for His servants, anyone who disobeys or disregards the explicit command of Allah Ta'ala is considered a mushrik or an associator).

Oh people, if it is true that you have "faith" be conscious of your actions, for they are what you hold in your hearts. I do not have to be married to my cousin, but I will not disagree with a person who is married to a cousin, either. When a person cherrypick the Book of Allah, agrreing and disagreeing with what pleases him/her, disparaging the prophet's (AS) unique qualities and actions, these are signs of "hypocracy or total disbelief" of the heart. Lets watch our hearts.

zayhal:

And by the way, it is Nimshi who's at the throat of active Muslim posters.
He/she's decided to be a confusionist around here.

Quite the contrary. Not at anyone's throat. I don't think the throat should be a target for anything because we disagree; heck, I don't think any part fo the body should be a target becasuse of disagreements.

And, no, again; I'm no confusionist. This, I will say: there're many matters on which we agree; and there're many others on which we do not agree.

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@Nimshi

I can't stop laughing at your ignorance because to me, you have made yourself a clown with your DENIALS that lacks intelligent reasoning.

You may tell others that you are a muslim but please don't DO THAT with babs because your half baked Islamic education would be exposed.

You may read my post 2515 where I exposed your denials.

Now to your posts

Another example of nonsensical drooling. I never saw your reply until you redirected from the other thread. You make such foolish claims and assertions one must wonder if you aren't deluded,

I am not perturbed by your vituperation. You may cry your head off till tomorrow as far as Babs is concerned. I asked you simple but direct questions in my posts but you went other way telling cock and bull story.

You don't just argue without Quranic verse, Hadith or Nimshi's book to back it up and I have told you several to back your denials with facts and not just story telling.

Where have I done that?? Where have I called Almighty Allah a liar?

Where have I called the Prophet a liar??

So you have forgotten that you indirectly did that? In case it has escaped you, this is part of your quote in which you are denying now:

By whom? This is - I'm quite sorry to say - quite a foolish assertion.

The above happened to be your quote when I said:

Actions would be judged according to intention.

You may save your face by explaining the above to me.

Also I posted this:

Quran 36 v 65: This day We shall seal up their mouths and their hands will speak to us and their legs will bear witness to what they used to earn.

Then, his body parts will be talking, and they will not hide anything of his deeds. Thereafter, he will rebuke them (body parts) for saying all they had said and witnessed. Their (body parts) reply will be:

Quran 41 v 21: , Allah has caused us to speak, and He created you the first time and to Him you are made to return.

But you still went ahead thus:

And you interpret all these literally? What a shame (I wouldn't say 'pity', but it's quite a susbtitute there).

Do you care to tell me the meaning?

If you want to discuss Mut'a marriage, then let's go back to the thread where we've had some extensive discussion on Mut'a already, or, perhaps open a new thread; I will oblige you your request. Perhaps, it may be helpful to reread that thread? I have already given the basic surah/ayat from Al Quran; as to the supporting opinion and interpretations from scholars, I can assure you there's no shortage of those.

I will be happy if you would open a fresh thread for that proving Quranic verses and quotes from your supposed scholars and you denials that lacks qurNanic verses.

You diminish your response by referring to mine as a rant, and then going ahead to ask more about it. And, I wonder: so you don't know about Asa's music, yet, you condemn it? Why should I now take you seriously, having come to a conclusion about sth you've not examined? Perhaps Asa's kind of music is haram to you; it is permissible for me. And, as far as her talent has been published, I will recommend it for anyone wanting a peek into trado-contemporary stuff from South-Western Nigeria. What's your problem with that?

I asked you questions on Asa's music but you never replied and in case you missed, here are they again:

1. What kind of music is her music ( i.e country music, hip hop, reggae, rap etc)?
2. Is the instrument being used in her music allowed in Islam?
3. What does her music teaches?

When you provide your answers, we look at kind of music in Islam and permissiblity of music in Islam and is

In case you don't know, I know Asa so save your face with your claim.

I had written that you bring disgrace to Islam.

I gave you open challenge that you should go through my posts since I joined NL and go contrary to my posts if you thiink you can and back you DENIALS with Quranic verses and Hadiths

You may search through my ID and counter me with regards to Hadith and Quranic verses supplied.

To the extent that you're unable to reason on very elementary matters, that claim remains true. Let's deal with a present example: "The Prophet never touched the hand of a woman". This claim, as written and presented, is false. If I find you in any company attempting to affirm this statement, I'll simply take you as an arrogant ignoramus, and anyone with any sense should too. For it to be true, you need to refine the claim; yet, here we are, wasting time and bandwidth discussing this very straightforward thing. Since you claim to be Muslim, and you fail to reason in the simplest matters, you bring disgrace. How's that difficult to understand? When cramming Hadiths, and Sunnahs, always make sure you employ your thinking faculties; and don't ever make a claim that's easy to show as false.

I am not suprised at your hogwash because funny enough, you make denials but couldnt provide even an ayah to back your claim.

Still on whether the prophet touched a woman or not which you called a lie and still claimed that you didnt call him a liar (may Allah have mercy on you).

If I should educate you and put aside your usual story telling, Hadith are words of the prophet which I presented to you and you called it a lie and still had the audacity to ask me if you ever did that? Do you read for understanding or mischief making?

Now to bring you out of your darkness, since you call the hadith presented lie, do you care to show your isnad showing that it is false and if you couldnt do that and you still couldnt provide your source where he did as you claimed, then you should accept that you are the biggest ignoramus here.

Look, babs787, you're who you are; if you have any issues with my views, why don't you start threads with clear/focussed topics and let's examine them? I've no use of your running from pillar to post about issues discussed elsewhere (you've mentioned Mut'a, say, on threads different from the original thread).
Your purpose appears to be to claim you're the authentic Muslim; then, get ahead with it. The way to do it is to present issues.

Point of correction, I have not claimed to be an authentic Muslim but still learning. I have provided you Quranic verses which you went against and claimed you didnt call the words of Allah, lie.  If you are a Muslim, then you wouldnt be having problem with the articles of faith which one of them happened to be 'to believe in His books' in which you denied and still asked me where you did that having given you where you did that. Kai, this one na serious matter o.

I don't run from pillar to post as you inferred but showed you where you happened to be ignorant of Islam and even told you to go through my posts where I supplied Quranic verses and counter same.

For example, you've mentioned sth about the permissibility of music in Islam because I recommended that another poster should listen to Asa's music; why don't you start a thread and lay your argument, and let's see whether my recommendation was unIslamic and designed to mislead?

I asked you questions but you feigned ignorance and here they are again

1. What is her brand of Music (In case you don't know, I know Asa and know about music).
2. Is her kind of Music allowed in Islam?
3. What is the stand of Islam on Music?
4. Is her way of dressing allowed in Islam?
5. What does her music teaches?

I had to repeat that because you may stylishly ignore it.

You also keep repeating this thing about the claim of the Prophet not touching the hand of any woman; on this point, I, again, say, you're a disgrace to Islam and logic. Why would you continue to argue that?

I am not even moved by your quote above. I have given you Hadith to back my response and you should now save your face by giving me NIMSHI'S HADITH running contrary to my post and NOT USUAL SENSELESS DENIALS.

I can't even say you are a disgrace to Islam but a confusionist in which you would never succeed. I can't imagine someone who is ashamed of his faith. I AM A MUSLIM and proud to say that.

Quit making these random accusations, and let's focus on important issues. There're such being discussed on this board, contemporary issues that're of real value; find them and add to the discussion.

You don't have to tell me that when you have been making denials here and has not been able to back it up wiith Quranic verses of Hadiths.

Once again, don't just make denials but back same with Quranic verses and Hadiths.

@Nimshi

I can't stop laughing at your ignorance because to me, you have made yourself a clown with your DENIALS that lacks intelligent reasoning.

You may tell others that you are a muslim but please don't DO THAT with babs because your half baked Islamic education would be exposed.

You have a basic reading comprehension problem. My response to poster mukina ought to have enlightened you on the details of the subject you're still commenting about. But being a person impervious to facts and discussion, you keep drooling like a bigot who's exhibiting the early stages of dementia. Beyond Islamin education, you lack the basic faculty of considering things you haven't memorised; that's all such a pity, because you probably have the potential for more. It iwll now be a waste of time and bandwidth to continue discussing this matter with you. When you have considered my comprehensive response to mukina, you may return to write reasonably.

I gave you open challenge that you should go through my posts since I joined NL and go contrary to my posts if you thiink you can and back you DENIALS with Quranic verses and Hadiths

Many of your posts are meaningless drooling. My spat with you on Mut'a Marriage shows you're impervious to facts; what can one do with that? I'd rather have a conversation with a piece of rock.

I asked you questions on Asa's music but you never replied and in case you missed, here are they again:

1. What kind of music is her music ( i.e country music, hip hop, reggae, rap etc)?
2. Is the instrument being used in her music allowed in Islam?
3. What does her music teaches?

When you provide your answers, we look at kind of music in Islam and permissiblity of music in Islam and is

In case you don't know, I know Asa so save your face with your claim.

You're unable to seee the contradiction in the above, eh? Only a thoroughly confused mind like yours could spew forth such garbage.

You know Asa's music, eh? How do you know it? Have you listened to it? So you know the answer to the infantile questions you're asking, so then, go ahead and submit your opinion. Or, go ahead and open a thread on music in Islam; make it your objective to show that a Muslim ought not to listen to Asa'a music.

I can't imagine someone who is ashamed of his faith. I AM A MUSLIM and proud to say that.

What's the meaning of "I'm proud to be a Muslim" other than it being an exposure of an inner inferiority, just as when you hear "I'm proud to be black"; the point isn't so subtle, but one could be almost certain you won't even understand it. And, how does a refusal to make a declaration of faith on a discussion board equate to being ashamed of faith? No, I'm not submitting to your questioning because you matter not; you don't like it, that's your baggage.

And I see you're still writing that it is correct to say that the Prophet never touched the hand of a woman. Again, I will advice that you modify the claim for it to be watertight. Because you're unable to reason this through, I don't think you're worth the fallen fur of a beloved pet.
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@Nimshi:

What's the meaning of "I'm proud to be a Muslim" other than it being an exposure of an inner inferiority, just as when you hear "I'm proud to be black"; the point isn't so subtle, but one could be almost certain you won't even understand it. And, how does a refusal to make a declaration of faith on a discussion board equate to being ashamed of faith? No, I'm not submitting to your questioning because you matter not; you don't like it, that's your baggage.

Umar ibn Kattah (RA), the second kalifah of Islam, organized a public demostration to let people of Makka know that he is a mulsim. This was a turning point in the history of Islam in Makka. I do hope that there were two Umars that Allah's Messenger (AS) prayed that one of them will enter Islam to benefit it. The other was Abu Jahl, who happened to be a relationship of the Prophet (as), and died in the battle of Badr as a disbeliever.

And I see you're still writing that it is correct to say that the Prophet never touched the hand of a woman. Again, I will advice that you modify the claim for it to be watertight. Because you're unable to reason this through, I don't think you're worth the fallen fur of a beloved pet.

Nimshi, if you are non-muslim, its no problem and its not a skin off anybody's nose. The point we continue to make is this: show us, any proof that goes against an authentic ahadith about the prophet?

He was reported by his wife, Aisha (RA) that he took allegiance of the women, without touching their hands, while he touched the hands of the men. Now tell us an example wher he touched the hands of the women when he took their allegiance? If you can't, then stop talking without what you are completely Ignorant off, as you are an expert.

Ko raa e sowun fun mi, Nimshi.

Umar ibn Kattah (RA), the second kalifah of Islam, organized a public demostration to let people of Makka know that he is a mulsim. This was a turning point in the history of Islam in Makka. I do hope that there were two Umars that Allah's Messenger (AS) prayed that one of them will enter Islam to benefit it. The other was Abu Jahl, who happened to be a relationship of the Prophet (as), and died in the battle of Badr as a disbeliever.

Everything you've written here is history, which is sth to read and remember, and – don't forget this – apply. To make an application, an understanding of context is important. If you want to copy what he did, you must also remember the context. The context, that context, is irrelevant to your wish to have me make a declaration for your benefit. You ought to stop seeking it; just drop it; you're not going to get it. And, remember: there's a difference between recalling and thinking things through.

Nimshi, if you are non-muslim, its no problem and its not a skin off anybody's nose. The point we continue to make is this: show us, any proof that goes against an authentic ahadith about the prophet?

For the first time in a long time, you're qualifying a thought of yours: congratulations are due. First: you have imposed a condition that was previously absent: that the Hadith is authentic; that, my friend, makes a world of difference. I now ask you: what re the conditions for accepting a piece of Hadith as authentic? If you could answer the question unambiguously, then you'd save us all a lot of time and bandwidth.

He was reported by his wife, Aisha (RA) that he took allegiance of the women, without touching their hands, while he touched the hands of the men. Now tell us an example wher he touched the hands of the women when he took their allegiance? If you can't, then stop talking without what you are completely Ignorant off, as you are an expert.

Ok, since you've asked somewhat nicely, here it is; it's really simple. The report by Aisha is not necessarily false; this is Sunnah, and it is admirable. Is the claim that the Prophet "did not touch the hands of any woman"? No! Of course, it is absurd to claim that the Prophet did not touch the hands of any woman; or, would you consider it reasonable that a man does not touch the hands of his wife? So, you must modify the claim to protect it from attack: say, the prophet did not touch the hands of a woman not his wife, or sth like that. To write that the prophet did not touch the hands of a woman is – as is – false and untrue. Simple as pie, no? I thought you'd be forced to think a little bit; apparently, you couldn't be forced to think: you're pretty good and vomiting things you've read and crammed; same for that miserable fellow who goes by babs787 on this board. And may Almighty Allah forgive you both for the injury you have attempted to bring on my screen name.
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@Nimshi

You have a basic reading comprehension problem. My response to poster mukina ought to have enlightened you on the details of the subject you're still commenting about. But being a person impervious to facts and discussion, you keep drooling like a bigot who's exhibiting the early stages of dementia. Beyond Islamin education, you lack the basic faculty of considering things you haven't memorised; that's all such a pity, because you probably have the potential for more. It iwll now be a waste of time and bandwidth to continue discussing this matter with you. When you have considered my comprehensive response to mukina, you may return to write reasonably.

I really do not blame your feather-weight brain because you make denials and and show yourself to be a mischievous person.

I also noticed that you ignored my posts when you had nothing in your brain to tender.

Many of your posts are meaningless drooling. My spat with you on Mut'a Marriage shows you're impervious to facts; what can one do with that? I'd rather have a conversation with  a piece of rock.

You are now showing the stuff you are made of. I challenged you here to provide what you claimed as you facts or open a fresh thread and tender your verses and those of your scholars but you couldnt do that. Are you not ashamed of yourself. Sure, you would prefer having a conversation with a piece of rock because you would be able to serve it your hogwash and your denials. I read Olabowale's posts which you showed your 'trademark' and denied but couldnt provide facts. Ignoramus

You're unable to seee the contradiction in the above, eh? Only a thoroughly confused mind like yours could spew forth such garbage.

I don't blame your ignorance which is affecting your reasoning.

You know Asa's music, eh? How do you know it? Have you listened to it? So you know the answer to the infantile questions you're asking, so then, go ahead and submit your opinion. Or, go ahead and open a thread on music in Islam; make it your objective to show that a Muslim ought not to listen to Asa'a music.

See him asking a foolish question. In case you don't know, her real name is Bukola Elemide, popularly called a 'guitar girl' and some of her tracks among all are, jailer, fire on the mountain, bibanke, oerisa bi iya kosi.

You don't have to ask me a senseless question when you have not been able to answer my questions. When you provide answers to my questions, we would then see if Muslims ought to listen to the music or not but until then, you have no case.

What's the meaning of "I'm proud to be a Muslim" other than it being an exposure of an inner inferiority, just as when you hear "I'm proud to be black"; the point isn't so subtle, but one could be almost certain you won't even understand it. And, how does a refusal to make a declaration of faith on a discussion board equate to being ashamed of faith? No, I'm not submitting to your questioning because you matter not; you don't like it, that's your baggage.

Never mind, you may save yourself the stress. I don't even need your false declaration but still telling you that, you should quit your denials which is now your trademark and back it up with something reasonable.

And I see you're still writing that it is correct to say that the Prophet never touched the hand of a woman. Again, I will advice that you modify the claim for it to be watertight. Because you're unable to reason this through, I don't think you're worth the fallen fur of a beloved pet.

Kai, this na guy na disgrace to this discussion o. I gave you hadith supporting my claim and for you to be able to refute it, you may tender your own facts and not your denials.

Also, calling it a lie is caling the scholars liar, Aisha and calling the prophet a liar as well.

Yes, I have seen your limited reasoning. You disgraced yourself here just because the hadith didnt say that he 'never touched other women apart from his wives'. Kai, you well so Nimshi?
Your thinkingf faculty couldnt put one and two together to arrive at reasonable answer. You should know from your infantile reasoning that the hadith referred to women apart from his wives.

I could remember then that you first brought up the issue of when opposite is drowning and now changed it just because what you expected is not included. Shuo, na wa for you . I even told you when you asked your childish question that what if opposite is drowning and told you that 'actions would be judged according to intentions' but you still showed your ignorance and called that saying a lie.

Lest I forget, I gave you quranic verses where parts of the body would speak for themsevles in which you still showed your lack of assimilating simple sentences. You still went ahead and called it something else and told you that failure to accept it going against the articles of faith but you also ignored that as well.

If you really want to have intelligent discussion with me, quit making denials lacking facts.

@Nimshi


Since you are so fond of making denails that lacks intelligent reasoning, I hereby pose to you, the sayings of the four Imams with regards to Music.

You know Asa's music, eh? How do you know it? Have you listened to it? So you know the answer to the infantile questions you're asking, so then, go ahead and submit your opinion. Or, go ahead and open a thread on music in Islam; make it your objective to show that a Muslim ought not to listen to Asa'a music.

See him asking a foolish question. In case you don't know, her real name is Bukola Elemide, popularly called a 'guitar girl' and some of her tracks among all are, jailer, fire on the mountain, bibanke, orisa bi iya kosi.

Among my ummah there will certainly be people who permit zinaa, silk, alcohol and musical instruments…” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari ta’leeqan, no. 5590; narrated as mawsool by al-Tabaraani and al-Bayhaqi. See al-Silsilah al-Saheehah by al-Albaani, 91).


Shaykh al-Islam (Ibn Taymiyah) (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: This hadeeth indicates that ma’aazif are haraam, and ma’aazif means musical instruments according to the scholars of (Arabic) language. This word includes all such instruments. (al-Majmoo’, 11/535).


‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: T[b]he daff is haraam, stringed instruments are haraam, drums are haraam and flutes are haraam. Narrated by al-Bayhaqi, 10/222[/b]

Now, the sayings of the four Imams with regards to Music in Islam

IMAM ABU HANEEFAH:

Imam Abu Haneefah has perhaps the harshest view of the four famous Imams of jurisprudence. His school of thought is the strictest, for he detested singing and considered it sinful. As for his disciples, they have explicitly confirmed the prohibition of listening to all musical amusements and pastimes, including wind instruments (mazaameer),all types of tambourines, hand drums (dufoof) and even the striking of sticks(al-qadeeb). They have asserted that such actions constitute disobedience to Allah and that the performer of such action is sinful, therefore necessitating rejection of his testimony.

They have further stated that it is incumbent upon the Muslim to struggle to avoid listening to such things, even if he were passing by or stationed near them (without any willful intention). Abu Haneefah's closest disciple, Abu Yoosuf, stated that if the sound of musical instruments (ma'aazif) and amusements (malaahi) were heard coming from a house, the house could be entered without permission of its owners. The justification for this is that the command regarding the prohibition of abominable things (munkaaraat) is mandatory, and cannot be established if such entering rests upon the permission of the residents of the premises.

This is the madhhab (position) of the rest of the Kufic scholars as well, such as Ibraheem An-Nakha'i, Ash-Sha'bi, Hammaad and Ath-Thowri. They do not differ on this issue. The same can be said of the general body of jurisprudence of Al-Basrah.

IMAAM MAALIK:

It is related by Ibnul-Jowzi that Ishaaq bin 'Eesaa At-Tabba'a asked Imaam Maalik bin Anas, the leading jurisprudent of Madeenah, about the view of the people of Madeenah regarding singing (ghinaa). He replied, "In fact, that is done by the sinful ones." Abut-teeb At-Tabari said, "As for Maalik bin Anas, he truly did prohibit singing and listening to it." He further related that Maalik said, "If one purchased a slave-girl and found her to be a professional singer, he could return her to the original owner for reimbursement on the claim of having found fault in the merchandise." The ruling of prohibition (tahreem) is generally agreed upon by the scholars of Madeenah. The Maaliki jurisprudence and commentator, Al-Qurtubi, reports Ibn Khuwayz Mandaad as saying that Imam Maalik had learned singing and music as a small boy until his mother encouraged him to leave it for a study of the religious sciences. He did, and his view became that such things were prohibited. Al-Qurtubi confirmed Maalik's view by saying that the only exception to this general ruling was the type of innocent songs such as those sung to placate the camels during travel, or during hard labor or boredom or during times of festivity and joy, such as the 'Eed days and weddings - the latter to the accompaniment of a simple daff (hand drum). Al-Qurtubi then said, "As for that which is done in our day, by way of the [blameworthy] innovations [bidah] of the Sufi mystics in their addition to hearing songs to the accompaniment of melodious instruments such as flutes, string instruments, etc., such is haraam [forbidden].

IMAAM SHAAFI'EE:

In the book, Aadaabul Qadaa, Ash-Shaafi'ee is reported as saying, "Verily, song is loathsome [makrooh]; it resembles the false and vain thing [al-baatil]. The one who partakes of it frequently is an incompetent fool whose testimony is to be rejected." His closest and most knowledgeable disciples clearly stipulate that his position on this issue is that of prohibition (tahreem) and they rebuke those who attribute its legality to him. This is confirmed by the later Shafi'ite scholar, Ibn Hajar Al-Haythami.

He related that one of Ash-Shaafi'ee's disciples, Al-Haarith Al-Muhaasibi (d.243 H) said, "Song is haraam, just as the carcass [maytah] is." [/b]Furthermore, the statement that singing is haraam is found in the treatise, Ash-Sharh Al-Kabeer, by the authoritative Shafi'ite scholar, Ar-Raafi'ee (d.623 H.). This is further corroborated by the accomplished Shafiiite jurisprudent, Imam An-Nawawi (d.676 H.) in his Rowdah. Such is the correct view of the dependable scholars of the Shafi'ite madhhab. However, due to limited knowledge and personal fancy and desire, a few of their latter-day scholars disagree with this view.

[b]IMAM AHMAD BIN HANBAL:

Imaam Ahmad's position regarding this issue has been narrated in detail by the Hanbalite jurisprudent and Quranic commentator, Abul-Faraj Ibnul-Jowzi (d.597 H.) in his treatise, Tablees Iblees (Satan's deception). H[b]e tells us that ghinaa during Ahmad's era consisted primarily of a rhymed, rythmical chanting (inshaad) of poems whose purpose was to lead people to a pious, abstentious way of life. However, when such chanters began to vary their simple style to one of a throbbing, affected melody, the narrations regarding Ahmad began to differ.[/b] His own son and student, Abdullah, relates that his father said, "Singing sprouts hypocrisy in the heart; it doesn't please me." The scholar, Ismaa'eel bin Ishaaq Ath-Thaqafi, reports that Ahmad was questioned regarding one's listening to those poems (qasaaid) to which he replied, "I despise it, for it is a bid'ah [innovation]. Don't sit down to listen to its reciters." Abul-Haarith relates that Ahmad said, "At-taghyeer is an innovation," whereupon it was said, "But it sensitizes and softens the heart." Ahmad rejoined, "It is a bid'ah [blameworthy innovation]." Yaqoob Al-Haashimi narrates that Ahmad said, "At-taghyeer is a recent innovation," and Yaqoob bin Gayyaath reports him as saying that he despised at-taghyeer and prohibited one's listening to it.

Ibnul-Jowzi then mentioned some narrations related by Abu Bakr Al-Khlallaal and Ahmad's son Saalih, which indicate Ahmad's not being averse to poetry sessions. It is related that Ahmad heard a singer (qawwal) a didn't reproach him, whereupon Saalih said to him, "Oh father, didn't you used to criticize and censure such a thing?" Ahmad replied, "That was because I was told that they were doing reproachable things, so i despised it; as for this, I do not dislike it." Ibnul-Jowzi commented at this point, "Some of the scholars of our [Hanbalite] school mention that Abu Bakr Al-Khallaal (d.311 H.) and his disciple, Abdul-Azeez, permitted singing [ghinaa]. Such a statement refers to the spiritual poems [qasaaid zuhduyyaat] which were prevalent during their time.

This is precisely the type of singing which was not disliked by Ahmad [as previously mentioned]. Ahmad bin Hanbal attests to this in the instance where he was asked regarding a deceased person who left behind him a son and a [professional singing] slave-girl. The son then needed to sell her. Ahmad said that she was not to be sold on the basis of her being a singer. Upon this it was said to him that, [as a singer], she was worth thirty-thousand dirhams, whereas if she were sold only on the basis of her being simply a slave-girl, she would perhaps be worth only twenty dinars. Ahmad reaffirmed that she was allowed to be sold only on the basis of her being simply a slave-girl." Ibnul-Jowzi explained, "The reason Ahmad said this is because the singing slave-girl doesn't sing spiritual poems [qasaaid zuhdiyaat]; rather, she sings throbbing lyrics which incite passion in one's being. This is proof that such singing is haraam, for if it were not so, the incurred loss of the orphans son's wealth would not be permissible.

Furthermore, it is reported by the jurisprudent Al-Mirwazi that Ahmad bin Hanbal said, "The earnings of the effeminate [mukhannath] singer are foul [khabeeth] because he doesn't sing spiritual poems, but rather, he sings erotic poetry [al-ghazal] in a licentious, cooing manner."

Ibnul-Jowzi concluded that it is obvious from what has preceded that the variant narrations relating to Ahmads dislike of (karaahah) or permission for singing depended upon the type of singing that was meant. As for the type of singing which is popular today, it would be forbidden according to Ahmad's view. If only he could see what the people have added to it by way of innovation.

In conclusion, the general consensus of the companions, taabi'een and the following generations of Islamic scholars up to the present day, including the four Imams, points to the ruling of prohibition of music and song.

Muslims and Music: foward to Modernity

Nine musical heavens

Self-described as "folk music for the 21st century," Niyaz is an exciting fusion of traditional Middle-Eastern, South Asian, and contemporary Western musical styles that redefines the world music platform and sets a new standard for global trance.

By Jehanzeb Dar, October 18, 2008

Musically speaking

In the mystic garden where romance emanates in every bloom, even Beauty is difficult to see when the Beloved is separated from the Lover. The clouded skies and rainstorms loom over the night, but the Lover still plays his song for the wounded flowers and silent spring-fountains. Left alone in an estranged land, he continues to sing, sending his longing out to the world so that his sorrow may echo into eternity. Maybe someday, the painful state of his exile will bring back the Light that once shined upon his rose garden. But in his relentless tears and heartbreak, little does he know that the Presence of Beauty is Eternal, and that Angels listen to his yearnings with compassion. One yearning he has, and that is reunion, if he were to yearn at all. One desire he has, and that is reunion, if he were to desire at all.

This kind of vivid imagery comes to mind when one is entranced by the incredibly captivating music of Niyaz. Self-described as "folk music for the 21st century," Niyaz is an exciting fusion of traditional Middle-Eastern, South Asian, and contemporary Western musical styles that redefines the world music platform and sets a new standard for global trance. Led by the hauntingly beautiful vocals of Iranian-born songstress, Azam Ali, and accompanied by multi-instrumentalist Loga Ramin Torkian and synthesizer programmer Carmon Rizzo, Niyaz not only blends East and West, but also bridges the ancient and the modern with profound mystical poetry from the Islamic world.

Their new album, Nine Heavens, marks their second release and continues to explore the heart of Islamic mysticism, or Sufism, as well as the much-needed bond between the East and the West. The album opens with a fun track titled Beni Beni, where Ali sings in Turkish. It is a traditional Sufi song about humankind longing to be united with God through Love - a prevalent theme in Sufi literature and teachings. The song is very festive with wonderfully complex instrumentation and joyous vocals which makes it the perfect introduction for the album.

The pulsating and bass-thumping tabla on the second track, Tamana, makes it the most cinematic track on the album, and although the Urdu lyrics sing of sorrow and lament, it is also hopeful and healing. Feraghi is an impassioned Farsi song about exile and it features traditional Persian melodies merged with synthesized brilliance by Rizzo. It is a song of separation, of abandonment, of being left alone without any compassion, and desperately longing for return. Ali's performances, whether in Turkish, Urdu, or Farsi, are elegantly unique, and much of that may be due to her exposure to diverse surroundings - she was born in Iran, but raised in India and the United States. In other words, her singing style is not distinctly Persian, Indian, or Western, but rather an exceptional creation of her own.

The violins on Allah Mazare are gorgeous and resonate with orchestral flair, while the ecstatic pace of Molk-e-Divan blasts with beautiful percussions and brilliant guitar and saz performances by Torkian. The Farsi lyrics on Molk-e-Divan and Sadrang were written in the 13th century by Amir Khusrau of the Indian Subcontinent, who is often credited as the "father of Qawwali music" - traditional Sufi music found predominately in South Asia. Ishq and Iman are beautiful Urdu tracks; the former was written in the 18th century by Khawaja Mir Dard and sings about God's endless Love: "Tere Ishq main humne kya kya nahi dekha?" That roughly translates as "What have I not seen in Your Love?" Iman is the slowest and most ambient track on the album, and Urdu lyrics translate as: "Do not despair, for God is always there."

With so many stereotypes and misconceptions about Islam, Middle-Easterners, and South Asians, Niyaz is more than a breath of fresh air. It serves as dialogue and it reveals a side of Islam that we don't often see in the mainstream media. For too often, the achievements and contributions of Islamic civilization has been ignored and neglected in American high schools; hardly anything is learned about the profound poetic works of Jalaluddin Rumi or Rabia Al-Adawiyyah, the mathematical breakthroughs of Mohammad Al-Khwarizmi, the inspired leadership of Salah Al-Din, or even the medical discoveries of Abdallah ibn Sina. Instead, only European history is taught, along with Greek philosophies and European innovations, while Islamic history is either not discussed or vilified. Niyaz fills in many of those forgotten areas and introduces us to the extraordinary realm of Islamic poetry, music, and culture, a refreshing contrast to what we see on the daily news.

Throughout the album, the music stimulates the listener with feelings of joy, sorrow, and yearning, and it transports them into an unseen realm - a place deep within our hearts and souls. With the sound of 13th-18th century Sufi poetry fused with magnificent vocals that carry us beyond, classical instruments of the Islamic world, and modern synthesizer ingenuity, Niyaz opens so many doorways in the human imagination and liberate listeners to travel wherever their hearts desire.

Nine Heavens is not just a celebration of Islam's mystical culture and diversity; it is also a bridge between the old world and the new. It is a union of the ancient and the modern, the East and the West, and it is one great song of the human soul - its longings, its joys, its pains, and its calling to the Divine. As we listen to Nine Heavens, we learn that in every drum beat, in every string that is plucked, and in every word that is sung, the name of Love is enamored, wholly and purely.

Jehanzeb Dar is a Pakistani Muslim-American, a student, writer, and filmmaker who dwells on issues of Faith, Love, and Spirit. He currently blogs at Islam on My Side.
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@Nimshi
So this is your own Quran and Hadith, ehn?
Even if a million so called muslims decides to be musicians, does that make Music halal in Islam?

You used to post intelligently, your recent posts are degrading, to say the least.

Nimshi: What was said about Prophet Muhammad was that he took "bayyah; allegiance" of the women without touching their "hands." This was an example of his (as) not touch the women who were not permissable for him to touch.

Read the original entry again. It did not say that he did not touch any woman before, or ever. He was a Romantic. (AS) touched his wives, Children and those who were permissable for him to touch. A young cousin before she is aware of sexuality was not forbidden. Even a strange female, who is just new born or even older beforethe age of sexual awareness. Those are not forbidden and can not be classified as "sensuaous women!"

Who is this Nimshi causing problems everywhere he goes? He may be an atheist you know.

@Nimshi: Hopefully, Allah willing, this will be my last entry to your "shenanigan; a lack of sincerity conversation," that you are holding. You think you can fool anyone with your "nuevo Islam, which it in itself is pointing towards endictment on you." Many Muslims and me, on this forum probably have an inkling about your religious leaning: God do exist you know.

For the first time in a long time, you're qualifying a thought of yours: congratulations are due. First: you have imposed a condition that was previously absent: that the Hadith is authentic; that, my friend, makes a world of difference. I now ask you: what re the conditions for accepting a piece of Hadith as authentic? If you could answer the question unambiguously, then you'd save us all a lot of time and bandwidth.

You can ask questions and get a direct answer. But when you are asked. we see you swinging the pendulum so far, that by the time it comes back, we already forgot the reason we were talking to you: you think.

Hadith is authentic, based on its chain of narators; their possibility to be around the Prophet (as) at the time of the event that they are narating a hadith on. For example, Aisha (ra) could not narate an ahadith that the tone will lead any to think that she was alive at the time that the prophet (as) was in the care of a wet mother, in the community of Bedouin, outside Makka. Ahadith that is also narated by person who could have met the prophet, but no possibility to have met him alone, whereby he was the only person to have known about this ahadith, will also be regarded as weak or impossible. Finally, an ahadith that goes against Qur'an, which in actuality the character and expected demeanor of the Prophet (as), who was described by his wife, (aisha ra), as a walking Qur'an will also be false.

Let me now give you a contemporary understanding: If a person tells you that they see me walking the street, with lipsticks on, wearing skirt and blouse, with the physical features of a woman, and if you and all persons who know me in a greater sense, have also known me from youth as a man, and nothing less. If the person who was with me at the time described the story teller about my being outside as a woman knows that I was at hope, in the company of guests, then it is important that those who know my character to say that the story of the person lacks authenticity. It is a sure thing that the friends who know me enough to vouch for my character can safely say that the story about me passing up as a woman would be false.

We in Islam know from the Qur'an the possible charactistics of Muhammad (AS). We know that he could not have gone against Qur'an. Any ahadith that lend any information towards him going against Qur'an will therefore be false! And will not be authentic. All that are narated by person who could have been around him,in company of others or by himself, and those who also have many chains of narators, and of course agreeing with the Qur'an, those are what is posible to be authentic.

Good bye Nimshi. You seem to be a time waster. I do not have the time to waste.

Good bye Nimshi. You seem to be a time waster. I do not have the time to waste.

I didn't know Olabowale can run from a fellow islamic faithful. You think that Nimshi is Funmi that knows nothing about your religion. You Lost!

I wonder how you concluded that I ran? So when anyone says another is a time waster, it will mean that the speaker ran away from the time waster, according to you? Only a strange mind at work: PepERSprAY!

I didn't know Olabowale can run from a fellow islamic faithful. You think that Nimshi is Funmi that knows nothing about your religion. You Lost!

Yes, he knows a lot about Islam and has been demonstrating it in most threads.

And there is a group of people who claim they are Muslims. But in everything they do, their actions, their speeches, their deeds are conclusively opposite of this claim of theirs. These people are called Hypocrites. Their conditions are worse than that of the outright disbelievers, because of their deceitfulness. Their hearts are filled with gimmicks and insincerities.

I pray that I and others dont come from this group of Muslims. Amin.

olabowale:

And there is a group of people who claim they are Muslims. But in everything they do, their actions, their speeches, their deeds are conclusively opposite of this claim of theirs. These people are called Hypocrites. Their conditions are worse than that of the outright disbelievers, because of their deceitfulness. Their hearts are filled with gimmicks and insincerities.

I pray that I and others don't come from this group of Muslims. Amin.

I thought the quran said something about judging others. Are you a righteous man?

zayhal:

@Nimshi
So this is your own Quran and Hadith, ehn?
Even if a million so called muslims decides to be musicians, does that make Music halal in Islam?

You used to post intelligently, your recent posts are degrading, to say the least.

you people are just hypocrites. there is a thread on this same board of yours with MUSLIMS discussing their favorite islamic music! Which is it? Is music haram or halal in islam?

DavidDylan:

you people are just hypocrites. there is a thread on this same board of yours with MUSLIMS discussing their favorite islamic music! Which is it? Is music haram or halal in islam?

As you might have noticed, I don't waste valuable time with people like you.

@David-the liar

you people are just hypocrites. there is a thread on this same board of yours with MUSLIMS discussing their favorite islamic music! Which is it? Is music haram or halal in islam?

Have you been there lately or here with your hogwash?

zayhal:

As you might have noticed, I don't waste valuable time with people like you.

Especially when you're caught in your own web of lies, half-truths and inconsistencies.

Here is the thread - Which Muslim Artiste Do You Love Listening To Their Nasheeds

They tell us that nasheeds are not haram . . . you tell us that music is haram . . . which is which?

Confusion seems to be ur stock-in-trade.

@PePERspAY: « #85 on: Yesterday at 06:21:12 PM »

Quote from: olabowale on Yesterday at 04:04:52 PM
And there is a group of people who claim they are Muslims. But in everything they do, their actions, their speeches, their deeds are conclusively opposite of this claim of theirs. These people are called Hypocrites. Their conditions are worse than that of the outright disbelievers, because of their deceitfulness. Their hearts are filled with gimmicks and insincerities.

I pray that I and others don't come from this group of Muslims. Amin.


I thought the quran said something about judging others. Are you a righteous man?

Show me a line where I incinuated that I am a"righteous man?" But I hope that I am not an always a horrible man, either. What you will not find in my value is Disagreeing with Qur'an and Muhammad (AS)!

Show me a line where I incinuated that I am a"righteous man?" But I hope that I am not an always a horrible man, either. What you will not find in my value is Disagreeing with Qur'an and Muhammad (AS)!

So you are saying you are not a righteous man? That means that you will not go to heaven by Islamic standards according to you?. Why are you wasting your time then worshipping Allah and Mohammed?. Do you derive any joy or remuneration from religious practice?. If you are worshiping God without HOPE, whats the essence?. You see why I told you before that it's only Jesus Christ than can offer you hope and not the other one that cannot be mentioned anyhow.

DavidDylan:

Especially when you're caught in your own web of lies, half-truths and inconsistencies.

Here is the thread - Which Muslim Artiste Do You Love Listening To Their Nasheeds

They tell us that nasheeds are not haram . . . you tell us that music is haram . . . which is which?

Confusion seems to be ur stock-in-trade.

You, david have a comprehension problem, and until you see the light, you'll remain in this confusion. Go back to the thread you referred to, and read the recent posts there.

zayhal:

You, david have a comprehension problem, and until you see the light, you'll remain in this confusion. Go back to the thread you referred to, and read the recent posts there.

i dont have a problem with comprehension, you on the other hand are a flat out confused hypocrite.

I notice that for all the moaning you have CONSISTENTLY REFUSED to explain the contradictions - is music haram or halal in islam? Rather you prefer to dance around, brandishing decietful rhetoric.

What "light" is there to see? Its not as if u're determined to let me see it.

PepERSprAY:

So you are saying you are not a righteous man? That means that you will not go to heaven by Islamic standards according to you?. Why are you wasting your time then worshipping Allah and Mohammed?. Do you derive any joy or remuneration from religious practice?. If you are worshiping God without HOPE, whats the essence?. You see why I told you before that it's only Jesus Christ than can offer you hope and not the other one that cannot be mentioned anyhow.

Why are you confusing yourself? Did even Jesus, a Prophet of God, not reproach the one who called him 'good'. And 'good' is even a lesser quality than 'righteous'.
If you want to argue, do so sensibly.

I feel sick when i read such blasphemy especially from the same people who scream "outrage" at every percieved slight.

zayhal:

Why are you confusing yourself? Did even Jesus, a Prophet of God

[size=18pt]Jesus Christ IS GOD.[/size] Read it till your eyes bleed. That your charlatan called mohammed lied just to lend some credibility to his false god does not demean this FACT.

zayhal:

not reproach the one who called him 'good'. And 'good' is even a lesser quality than 'righteous'.

this from the very same bible you decietful hypocrites claim is corrupt and shld not be taken seriously? 
Did you understand what Christ was saying there AT ALL? or u're just foaming in the mouth as usual?

Spare us this islamic shenanigan of trying to explain the bible to us, read ur own quran and leave us alone. That you now have an islamic board shld not be excuse for u to start speaking about my God in a derogatory form.