Man Utd of 1999 was not a star studded team, Brazil of 1958 was!!

You cant tell us a whole Brazil went to the world cup putting ntheir burden on a 17yr old shoulder.

you are the one making your own argument here. . . .i mentioned beckenbauer, zidane, fat ronaldo. . . . .they did not singlehandedly win a world cup but they performed for their respective national teams. messi is yet to show for argentina and to qualify as a great player in the degree of fat ronaldo, pele and maradona. . . . .messi must show more bottle for argentina.

Several factors contribute to how great a team is, Fat ronaldo had Cafu, Carlos, Rivaldo who were absolutely world class, Add Ronaldinho too. Messi's national team has a weakness which is not related to Messi himself.

nani is world class? really?

The best player in the EPL last season by a distance.

i never knew fat ronaldo was a defender in france 98. . . . . dayo, you embarrass yourself when you come up with claims like this. fat ronaldo's aerial prowess was judged from what he did at the other end of the pitch not when he was detailed to head defensively. how many strikers are good defensive headers. you make me laugh.

You dont have to be a defender to nod balls defensively, Canavaro, Ayala, Vidic and Terry are potent aerially even on their wrong side of the field

dayokanu:

Man Utd of 1999 was not a star studded team, Brazil of 1958 was!!

except that they weren't. . . . .a team no one gave hope and needed the help of pele in the knock-out stages to win the trophy.
in that same season, pele scored 66 goals in 46 apps in the domestic league. there was a reason brazil took him to the world cup even with his inexperience.

You cant tell us a whole Brazil went to the world cup putting ntheir burden on a 17yr old shoulder.

but for pele, brazil was nearly eliminated by wales in the q/finals.

Several factors contribute to how great a team is, Fat ronaldo had Cafu, Carlos, Rivaldo who were absolutely world class, Add Ronaldinho too. Messi's national team has a weakness which is not related to Messi himself.

how so? tevez? aguero? higuain? mascherano? cambiasso? di maria? milito? and it's not messi's fault? whose fault then?
messi has better team-mates than maradona did for argentina and we saw the difference.

The best player in the EPL last season by a distance.

and that makes him world class??
nani struggled with his form in the last 3 months of the season - he didn't even make the united's starting xi in the big games when valencia got back into the team.

You dont have to be a defender to nod balls defensively, Canavaro, Ayala, Vidic and Terry are potent aerially even on their wrong side of the field

so shearer, batistuta and bierhoff were better headers defensively than fat ronaldo?
your argument is laughable!

And I ask, what has CR done for Portugal?

coogar:

except that they weren't. . . . .a team no one gave hope and needed the help of pele in the knock-out stages to win the trophy.
in that same season, pele scored 66 goals in 46 apps in the domestic league. there was a reason brazil took him to the world cup even with his inexperience.

You mean the Brazil team that had Garrincha, Vava, Gilmar, the Santos'-Djalmar and Nilton; the influential captain, Zito and of course Didi - who according to legend invented the bicycle kick - wasn't star studded?
Brazil were one of the favourites for the 1958 WC.
It was the bulk of this same team that won the 1962 WC in which Pele was injured for major parts of.

medjai:

You mean the Brazil team that had Garrincha, Vava, Gilmar, the Santos'-Djalmar and Nilton; the influential captain, Zito and of course Didi - who according to legend invented the bicycle kick - wasn't star studded?
Brazil were one of the favourites for the 1958 WC.
It was the bulk of this same team that won the 1962 WC in which Pele was injured for major parts of.

conveniently forgetting brazil were yet to win a world cup until then(1958). . . .they were under a huge pressure to deliver and the country had given up even before the world cup started because of garrincha's irresponsibility.  with pelé and garrincha playing together, the brazilian national team never lost a match.

this excerpt was taken from garrincha's autobiography:

Garrincha was the player, said the playwright Nelson Rodrigues, who taught the fans to laugh. His on-pitch clowning is perhaps best illustrated by the occasion when, faced with an open goal, he preferred to carry on dribbling. Garrincha passed three players and then beat the goalkeeper. Instead of scoring, he waited for a defender to run back. Garrincha swerved and the defender had to grasp the post so as not to fall over. He then walked into the goal with the ball. He flicked it up, put it under his arm and sauntered back to the centre spot. The match was a friendly between Brazil and Fiorentina of Italy, Brazil's last fixture before the 1958 World Cup finals in Sweden. When Garrincha scored, the stadium was silent apart from the shouts of his team-mates[b]. In anger. They were terrified that such irresponsibility in a competitive game would cost them dear.[/b]

By 1958, Brazil were feeling the pressure of their unfulfilled potential. The country had still not won a World Cup. Both 1950 and 1954 had been lost by emotional frailty at the crucial moment - first against courageous Uruguayans and then against violent Hungarians. In 1958, the coaching staff introduced a psychologist to make sure the team was mentally prepared. Tests gave pseudo-scientific backing to Garrincha's playfulness. His aggression level was zero and he had below-average intelligence (he was judged to be "obviously infantile", lacking the sense of responsibility needed for team spirit. But he had an excuse. He was only 17.)

Coogar,

With that excerpt about Garrincha, Would you still say Pele didnt play in a star studded side?
The equivalent of Garrincha in modern times might be Ronaldinho/Zidane

dayokanu:

Coogar,

With that excerpt about Garrincha, Would you still say Pele didnt play in a star studded side?
The equivalent of Garrincha in modern times might be Ronaldinho/Zidane

exactly ma point. . . . .garrincha alone in that team did not mean they were star-studded. the fans in brazil didn't even dig his style cos they thunk he was irresponsible. zidane had an end product to his game. garrincha then would be the equivalent of denilson(france 98), okocha(eintracht frankfurt), cristiano(2003), nani(2007) ronaldinho(2004). ridiculously talented players but no end product!

coogar:

conveniently forgetting brazil were yet to win a world cup until then(1958). . . .they were under a huge pressure to deliver and the country had given up even before the world cup started because of garrincha's irresponsibility.  with pelé and garrincha playing together, the brazilian national team never lost a match.

Colombia and Spain were the favourites for the 94 and 98 world cups respectively. . . It's more about quality and form than history. Besides, Brazil had finished as runners up and also finished in third place in previous editions.
I doubt there was ever a time when Brazil werent a force in football.

this excerpt was taken from garrincha's autobiography:

Garrincha was the player, said the playwright Nelson Rodrigues, who taught the fans to laugh. His on-pitch clowning is perhaps best illustrated by the occasion when, faced with an open goal, he preferred to carry on dribbling. Garrincha passed three players and then beat the goalkeeper. Instead of scoring, he waited for a defender to run back. Garrincha swerved and the defender had to grasp the post so as not to fall over. He then walked into the goal with the ball. He flicked it up, put it under his arm and sauntered back to the centre spot. The match was a friendly between Brazil and Fiorentina of Italy, Brazil's last fixture before the 1958 World Cup finals in Sweden. When Garrincha scored, the stadium was silent apart from the shouts of his team-mates[b]. In anger. They were terrified that such irresponsibility in a competitive game would cost them dear.[/b]

By 1958, Brazil were feeling the pressure of their unfulfilled potential. The country had still not won a World Cup. Both 1950 and 1954 had been lost by emotional frailty at the crucial moment - first against courageous Uruguayans and then against violent Hungarians. In 1958, the coaching staff introduced a psychologist to make sure the team was mentally prepared. Tests gave pseudo-scientific backing to Garrincha's playfulness. His aggression level was zero and he had below-average intelligence (he was judged to be "obviously infantile", lacking the sense of responsibility needed for team spirit. But he had an excuse. He was only 17.)

Garrincha was talented but irresponsible to the team but what of Didi? He's one of the greatest players of all time and was perhaps the best midfielder/playmaker of that era. He was the player of the tournament in the '58 world cup.
There was also Vava who was a renowned goal-machine and Djalma Santos was one of the stand out players in the '54 world cup

medjai:

Colombia and Spain were the favourites for the 94 and 98 world cups respectively. . . It's more about quality and form than history. Besides, Brazil had finished as runners up and also finished in third place in previous editions.
I doubt there was ever a time when Brazil werent a force in football.

they were never a force before 1958. they had been eliminated by hungary in the previous edition of the world cup so they were just potential that were just to blossom.

Garrincha was talented but irresponsible to the team but what of Didi? He's one of the greatest players of all time and was perhaps the best midfielder/playmaker of that era. He was the player of the tournament in the '58 world cup.
There was also Vava who was a renowned goal-machine and Djalma Santos was one of the stand out players in the '54 world cup

didi and vava became stars only after they had won the world cup in 1958. until then they were regular footballers people didn't pay attention to.
the major stars in that brazilian team in the 58 world cup were garrincha and young pele.

king messi

-BARAK OBAMA- 'iam like messi'
-HUSSEIN BOLT-'he is my favourite player'
-ARSENE WENGER-'he is a player from play station'
-ALEX FERGUSSON-'we just couldn't cope with messi'
-PEP GUORDIOLA-'he is the best player ever'
-XAVI-'messi is the best player in history'
-WAYNE ROONEY-'he is the best player ive seen'
-GRONDONA-'i just dont know who is best, messi? , maradona?'
-ADILES-'he is the greatest player in history'
-MARADONA-'he is my successor'
-JOSE MOURINHO-'with messi it is unpredictable. he can play against me next time and score 5 goals'
-SAMUEL ETO-'lionel messi is god'
hear the world luminaries speak ! while freddy 'coogar' here tries to school us on why in his infinite wisdom, lionel messi is trash.

another tournament, another disappointing performance from leo messi.

--played against uruguay's 10 men for 48 mins with nothing to show for it.
--argentina were playing on their home soil
--uruguay are not even in the top 5 national teams in the world

is messi really the best player to have played the game having showed no bottle for his national team like his predecessors(fat ronaldo, zidane, rivaldo,
romario, maradona, klinsmann, cryuff, etc)?

coogar:

another tournament, another disappointing performance from leo messi.

--played against uruguay's 10 men for 48 mins with nothing to show for it.
--argentina were playing on their home soil
--uruguay are not even in the top 5 national teams in the world

is messi really the best player to have played the game having showed no bottle for his national team like his predecessors(fat ronaldo, zidane, rivaldo,
romario, maradona, klinsmann, cryuff, etc)?

it's so funny that if only tevez had scored his own penalty you probably wouldn't be saying this. anyways i think so many man u and epl fans are still unhappy with messi. they wont forget wembley in a hurry!

coogar:

another tournament, another disappointing performance from leo messi.

--played against uruguay's 10 men for 48 mins with nothing to show for it.
--argentina were playing on their home soil
--uruguay are not even in the top 5 national teams in the world

is messi really the best player to have played the game having showed no bottle for his national team like his predecessors(fat ronaldo, zidane, rivaldo,
romario, maradona, klinsmann, cryuff, etc)?

I don't think anybody is saying Messi is the best player ever. Just the best player in this particular generation.
regarding the Copa America, well . . . How many Copa Americas did Maradona win? Zero. There's still time for Messi to win the World Cup.

AjanleKoko:

I don't think anybody is saying Messi is the best player ever. Just the best player in this particular generation.
regarding the Copa America, well . . . How many Copa Americas did Maradona win? Zero. There's still time for Messi to win the World Cup.

messi does not have to win the world cup. problem is that these days there are haters. people chose to be dogmatic but not pragmatic. it's common sense, its simple logic. you need 13 wins to lift the champions league, 38 wins to lift the la liga, only i repeat only 6 wins to win the world cup. brazil won the world cup in 02. the only strong team they faced was germany in the final. other teams were turkey, emm i think korea or so. people need to use their intellects and stop hating.

questioning why messi does not score for argentina is like saying why xavi does not score for spain. the roles for barca and argentina are very dissimilar but the haters dont wanna know anyway but who cares? messi has got the majority on his side. the minorities are humans too. of course they will have their say.ive heard about maradona, pele, etc but i really didnt se them live. messi is the greatest ive seen.

Well, Higuain and Tevez didn't really help matters. Though Higuain had a better game last night than in the previous, he still fluffed some chances.
Plus, Uruguay ain't no pushovers. Forlan was absolutely brilliant. I'd say he had even more influence than Messi on the night.

una no dey tire for this argument ni?

There's little Messi can do all by himself. Teams win tournaments. No individual can win a tournament on his own.

medjai:

There's little Messi can do all by himself. Teams win tournaments. No individual can win a tournament on his own.

maradona did in 86, garrincha did in 62.

AjanleKoko:

I don't think anybody is saying Messi is the best player ever. Just the best player in this particular generation.
regarding the Copa America, well . . . How many Copa Americas did Maradona win? Zero. There's still time for Messi to win the World Cup.

maradona won the world cup. . . .messi has not won anything for argentina and he's 1/10th of the player he is when playing for argentina. goes to show without xavi and iniesta, leo messi is nothing. without messi, the duo have won european championship/ champions league(2006) and a world cup for spain. it seems messi actually needs barcelona than barcelona need messi.

coogar:

maradona did in 86, garrincha did in 62.

Maradona won the '86 world cup single-handedly but what are we gonna say about the contributions of:
Jorge Valdano - 4 goals and 1 assist.
Burruchaga - 2 goals and 2 assits, including the winner in the final.
Pasculli - Scored the only goal against the cantenacio playing Uruguay in the second round.
Maradona scored 5 goals and made 5 assits, wrecked England and all but are we gonna say others contributed nothing towards Argentina's '86 world cup success?

maradona won the world cup. . . .messi has not won anything for argentina and he's 1/10th of the player he is when playing for argentina. goes to show without xavi and iniesta, leo messi is nothing. without messi, the duo have won european championship/ champions league(2006) and a world cup for spain. it seems messi actually needs barcelona than barcelona need messi.

Argentina scored 5 goals before they got k/o'd out the copa, three of the goals were made by Messi.

medjai:

Maradona won the '86 world cup single-handedly but what are we gonna say about the contributions of:
Jorge Valdano - 4 goals and 1 assist.
Burruchaga - 2 goals and 2 assits, including the winner in the final.
Pasculli - Scored the only goal against the cantenacio playing Uruguay in the second round.
Maradona scored 5 goals and made 5 assits, wrecked England and all but are we gonna say others contributed nothing towards Argentina's '86 world cup success?

maradona scored 5 goals and 5 assists in 86 world cup. it means he directly contributed to 10 goals of the total 12 argentina scored at the world cup. and these contributions weren't just goals that were scored when the opponents had surrendered. majority were first goals, equalizers and winners. messi is far far off such an achievement. what maradona did for napoli alone is enough to put him as the greatest footballer ever. . . .whilst messi is happy to play alongside world class players, maradona was doing it for a lower side - he won the league with that side and won a cup in europe with them. this is akin to messi playing for real betis and winning la liga + europa cup with them.

Argentina scored 5 goals before they got k/o'd out the copa, three of the goals were made by Messi.

3/5 is not 10/12. besides, 3/5 got knocked out in the q/finals, 10/12 won the cup(in a much bigger stage). khakhi is not leather. maradona is 100000000 times greater than messi and i will be willing to say rummenigge, fat ronaldo, zidane, romario, baggio, owen have done more for their national sides than messi has done.

^^Argentina scored 14 goals in the 1986 world cup. . . There's still time for Messi, he only just turned 24. Maradona was 26 at the '86 world cup.

medjai:

^^Argentina scored 14 goals in the 1986 world cup. . . There's still time for Messi, he only just turned 24. Maradona was 26 at the '86 world cup.

even if they did 10/14 is still better than 3/5

messi just turned 24, by the time he plays in the next world cup, he would be 27. time is ticking away and the current argentine side are gash. i don't see them playing in a world cup semi. . . .never mind winning it.

mr coogar, without puyol and pique, i tell you xavi and iniesta too are 'trash'. raul gonzalez is still a greater player than xavi and iniesta but did he win the world cup? NO. does it also mean that pedro is greater than raul? cus the former won the world cup but not the latter. messi became famous in an argentine shirt not in a barca shirt. the world marvelled at his holland 2005 exploits. there he single handedly dismantled your father land without xavi and iniesta. leave this messi hating alone, it wont do you no good.

Haters, get a life!
Messi is ur king now,not Maradona or any other. Perhaps, Maradona was at some time in the past, but not anymore.
When Messi sneezes, u scampers for safety. U can only put his performances at NT into scrutiny to assure urself of some confidence.

What people have failed to recognize or have chosen to ignore, is the influence of coaches on the general performances of players. When a coach is not brave enough to take some hard decision (Tevez inclusion saga) and stick to it or has a poor tactical discipline, it must affect the players, their individual qualities notwithstanding. I dare say that had Baptista stuck with his original plan of keeping Tevez out of squad and had he not yielded to pressures from some quaters to include him, perhaps we would have been discussing some other things. The stats are there to prove. The only match Argentina won, was one he didn't play a part. He proved to be a sign of failure to his teammates from the start. And he finally delivered the straw that broke the Argentine's hope! He missed from the spot! Unbelievable!
But that is what indecision and inability to make the right call can get a coach!

I make bold to say that his success so far with Barca is not because of xavi and Iniesta but because of the presence of one with a great presence of mind, Pep Guardiola. He knows what to do so that his players including Messi can give their best on pitch. But sadly his counterpart at Argentine NT does not. And some of us here are looking for who to make a scapegoat. We must not be sentimental when judging issues.uck with his original plan of keeping Tevez out of squad and had he not yielded to pressures from some quaters to include him, perhaps we would have been discussing some other things. The stats are there to prove. The only match Argentina won, was one he didn't play a part. He proved to be a sign of failure to his teammates from the start. And he finally delivered the straw that broke the Argentine's hope! He missed from the spot! Unbelievable!
But that is what indecision and inability to make the right call can get a coach!

I make bold to say that his success so far with Barca is not because of xavi and Iniesta but because of the presence of one with a great presence of mind, Pep Guardiola. He knows what to do so that his players including Messi can give their best on pitch. But sadly his counterpart at Argentine NT does not. And some of us here are looking for who to make a scapegoat. We must not be sentimental when judging issues.

ddippset:

mr coogar, without puyol and pique, i tell you xavi and iniesta too are 'trash'. raul gonzalez is still a greater player than xavi and iniesta but did he win the world cup? NO.

xavi and iniesta are greater than raul. xavi has been the top midfielder in the last 6 seasons. there was never a time raul has been the best striker in his entire career. xavi won the best player in euro 2008 - raul has never been any player of any tournament for spain in his entire career. without puyol/pique, xavi and iniesta are trash? which pique? xavi and iniesta had won champions league before pique moved to barcelona in 2008 summer.

does it also mean that pedro is greater than raul? cus the former won the world cup but not the latter. messi became famous in an argentine shirt not in a barca shirt. the world marvelled at his holland 2005 exploits. there he single handedly dismantled your father land without xavi and iniesta. leave this messi hating alone, it wont do you no good.

messi became famous in a barca shirt. he has been making waves in barcelona team b before his exploits in holland 2005. and that he single-handedly disgraced your fatherland is a bit pushing it. if scoring 2 penalties in a final is disgracing your fatherland then you value the country of your birth so cheaply. messi needs barcelona more than barcelona need him.

coogar:

if scoring 2 penalties in a final is disgracing your fatherland then you value the country of your birth so cheaply.

of which the second was unjustified and we were denied a legit one for that matter.
Imagine dissing nigeria because of one foreigner and foreign club. na wa sha.

usbcable:

of which the second was unjustified and we were denied a legit one for that matter.
Imagine dissing nigeria because of one foreigner and foreign club. na wa sha.

you don't need to discuss any further ddippset is a twit!

usbcable:

of which the second was unjustified and we were denied a legit one for that matter.
Imagine dissing nigeria because of one foreigner and foreign club. na wa sha.

so in football nowadays if you score a goal or two then you performed very well but if you do not score a goal then you are flop. so if i say we use overaged players or that messi dismantled nigeria then it amounts to dissing nigeria? pls dont derail from the issue. like it or not messi was the top scorer and the best player of that tournament. that was when the world knew him.

coogar:

xavi and iniesta are greater than raul. xavi has been the top midfielder in the last 6 seasons. there was never a time raul has been the best striker in his entire career. xavi won the best player in euro 2008 - raul has never been any player of any tournament for spain in his entire career. without puyol/pique, xavi and iniesta are trash? which pique? xavi and iniesta had won champions league before pique moved to barcelona in 2008 summer.

messi became famous in a barca shirt. he has been making waves in barcelona team b before his exploits in holland 2005. and that he single-handedly disgraced your fatherland is a bit pushing it. if scoring 2 penalties in a final is disgracing your fatherland then you value the country of your birth so cheaply. messi needs barcelona more than barcelona need him.

ok xavi is a million times better than raul, u win but i think you dodged the issue i raised on pedro.  did you see messi's goals against getafe 2007, madrid this year, arsenal this year. who scores solo goalslike messi? who assists like messi?  plus dont lie to yourself just to discredit messi, who knew  messi b4 holland 2005? i know i mite be getting under your skin but dont get personal aight.

coogar:

you don't need to discuss any further ddippset is a twit!

messi might have gotten you dizzy, pissed off or butt hurt but please dont take it out on me! iam just the messanger. dont hate the player hate the game. you're apparently a man u fan, a madrid fan, a cr7 b***ch but you gotta take it easy mann!