prse-elect, who's your mate?

KarmaMod, how are you?

And no one's denying anything. It's just as simple as stated before, there's too much conflicting information about Osu for anyone to definitely call it. When I first heard about it, and asked about it, I was told something somewhat different from what's been stated here. So, because there isn't an agreement as to the what's, how's, who's, when's, where's about Osu, then it's better left not spoken of. Time erodes all things. So with time, it'll be forgotten.

Since when is not talking about a problem a solution? Til today you have people stating they would never marry or interact with certain people known as being part of the OSU group. Even on NL. Do a quick search it's there.

If more people spoke AGAINST the practice THEN maybe a difference will be made.

karmamod can u post something sensible for once? show me who and who supported the osu idea on nairaland, let me face the person.

talking about a problem does not solve it (except in the minds of delusional talkatives. .)

there have been more threads for this osu thing in nairaland than for any other topic. who proposes a perfect plan? who?

I do not know that it has constituted into unbearable problem for one to decline marriage from certain quarters or group of people.

In every part of the world, there are traditions that forbid people from engaging in certain human endeavor as the Osu has its pedigree wthin few places in Igboland.

pres-elect:

karmamod can u post something sensible for once? show me who and who supported the osu idea on nairaland,

Even retards know how to use the search option. Try it. Alainironu.

KarmaMod:

Even retards know how to use the search option. Try it. Alainironu.

taaaa shinga gbafuo
foolish thing . . . .you made a statement and you cant present evidence. is that the way you showcase your infantile intelligence . . . . humpty dumpty.

abeg comot for here, i dont blame you , why do I even give attention to some fat dirty kid . . . .
akwuna anu mpam
next pls

there have been more threads for this osu thing in nairaland than for any other topic. who proposes a perfect plan? who?

Pres,

which one are you, victimizer or victimized?

He's a victim of Down's Syndrome and Omo Ale-ness

KarmaMod:

Since when is not talking about a problem a solution? Til today you have people stating they would never marry or interact with certain people known as being part of the OSU group. Even on NL. Do a quick search it's there.

If more people spoke AGAINST the practice THEN maybe a difference will be made.

KarmaMod, I don't think you fully understand. This kind of situation isn't one that is best solved by throwing policies at it. It isn't a recent social or political development. It's a cultural practice/norm/belief that's been existing for decades (changed in whatever way it has. . .). And, as all cultural practices/norms/beliefs, if ignored, it will become non-existent.

Another thing to understand is that the problem can only be solved by ignoring it, because there really isn't any concensus between Igbo people as to what happened where, and how, and why, and concerning who since the institutionalization of Osu. And everyone knows that the best way to effectively solve a problem is to get to it's source. Because there is no real agreement as to the source, and what went wrong, where, we can only just ignore it and let it die normally (as other non-existent cultural norms/practices died). That's the only best solution to this issue.

Maybe the OSU issue explains the hatred some ndigbo`s have towards other ethnic groups in Nigeria. I pray the younger generation will put a stop to this hate that is dividing our people. We are all one people.
Peace and love

Kinda like torment that comes with Indian caste systems, Chinyere? They should ignore that too

Cool.

I can't comment on that. I'm not familiar enough with the Indian Caste System to draw any comparisions between that and Osu. To add to that, I don't see what you're really getting at because I don't know of anyone (and I haven't heard of any stories of anyone) being tormented for the whole Osu issue. From what I know and have experienced, it is only really an issue when it comes to marriage. No one gets tortured, or killed for it (as far as I know). It's just a stigma (psychological idea/mindset) associated with Osu. So I don't see how your comment of torment due to the Indian Caste System fits into this discussion.

Talking about [against] it raises more questions than it does give answers. The best thing is to ignore it and let it fade away.

ChinenyeN:

I can't comment on that. I'm not familiar enough with the Indian Caste System to draw any comparisions between that and Osu. To add to that, I don't see what you're really getting at because I don't know of anyone (and I haven't heard of any stories of anyone) being tormented for the whole Osu issue. From what I know and have experienced, it is only really an issue when it comes to marriage. No one gets tortured, or killed for it (as far as I know). It's just a stigma (psychological idea/mindset) associated with Osu. So I don't see how your comment of torment due to the Indian Caste System fits into this discussion.

Talking about [against] it raises more questions than it does give answers. The best thing is to ignore it and let it fade away.

considering the fact that it is still here,in spite of over 100 years of westernization, and christianity does the highlighted not amount to keeping your head in the sand

Let's ignore everything and pray it goes away.

ChinenyeN:

I can't comment on that. I'm not familiar enough with the Indian Caste System to draw any comparisions between that and Osu, It's just a stigma (psychological idea/mindset) associated with Osu. So I don't see how your comment of torment due to the Indian Caste System fits into this discussion.

Obviously I know more about it than you do then if you really cant see how they can be compared.

Since I know you're pretty intelligent, I'll just chalk it up to sheer denial

oyb:

considering the fact that it is still here,in spite of over 100 years of westernization, and christianity does the highlighted not amount to keeping your head in the sand

As I said before, it [the Osu issue] is a psychological thing (as far as I know). Remember that it took years and years for America to psychologically/mentally get over slavery, then years and years later for it to get over marginalization of blacks. Still, everyone knows that prejudice, disdain, and other negative emotions aren't gone. They're still there (held by both blacks and whites). So, in reality, people's psychological mindsets towards the issue cannot be altered by throwing policies at them. The best thing is for generations now and generations coming to ignore the Osu business. As the generations continue to do that, the issue will continually fade away until it become non-existent and only a thing in the history books.

KarmaMod:

Let's ignore everything and pray it goes away.
Obviously I know more about it than you do then if you really cant see how they can be compared.
Since I know you're pretty intelligent, I'll just chalk it up to sheer denial

[list]
[li] Thanks. You've never (well, at least, as far as I remember) once said anything nice to me, about me.[/li]

[li] In regards to the Indian Caste System, You probably know more about it than me because all I know of is that it exists. I do not know anything about how it came about, what it is for, how it works etc. . . specifics like that. All I know is that there is such a thing as a caste system in India.[/li]
[li] I cannot deny something that even I still have questions about. Everything that I've read, heard, experienced, and been told by others seems [to some degree] conflicting. So I don't thoroughly know and understand what the issue is with Osu. I wouldn't be so quick as to say that I'm in denial.[/li]
[li] No one is praying, only ignoring. The rest will perform itself.[/li]
[/list]

If this Osu condition is only discussed and observed in issues of marriage, then it is a BIG issue and needs discussion. The marriage is the fundamental unit of every society and if this issue has the ability to alter or inhibit the marital/family unit, it must be dealt with. Also, how can u diminish the situation by saying it is only a 'psychological stigma' and not torture? Have u ever heard the term psychological torture? And yes, in the US, AAs have made great strides but I can guarantee it was not by ignoring racism and the racist past. Even Obama had to make a speech to confront these issues. They were not and will not be solved by ignoring them.

@prittygrrr

you make valid points. it's serious, should be addressed. . . but how do you propose it is addressed. . . and by who? you guys dont understand the igbo culture and way of life. i have noticed that suddenly non-igbos in nairaland have become experts on igbo affairs.

nobody anywhere in this world has the ability to legislate marriage. marriage is something that is a mutual understanding between the persons involved. if i want to marry a white girl and her parents bluntly refuse to accept a black man, nigerian for that matter, what do i do? go to court? if the girl insists, we'll get married regardless. there is no court case here. same with the osu thing.

by the way, ignoring it is working. i know some igbo villages where peole get married without asking if the other person is osu. the ngwa people in abia state have ignored it completely and some places in anambra state too. dont ask dont tell will help eliminate it over the generations.

there was a time osu and non osus can not use the same market, or walk the same street at a the same time. . . dont ask dont tell has wiped it out. i am igbo, i believe there are osus in my village, but i dont know who. i dont ask. nobody has told me anything. i interact with everybody in the village. who here will say there's injustice in that village?

but some people who cant speak igbo have become igbo experts

even some dirty fat humpty-dumpty morons with not only down syndrome but also patau syndrome, edwards syndrome, congenital syphillis all with profound mental retardation

@negro-ntns

i am an independent observer

@ akamu n'odu karmamod

this is for you


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJyIWXSlfWo

.

those fears are not very pronouced in my generation. in my father's generation. . . yes, but in my generation . . no.

if i bring a girl to marry, and my father says the girl is osu. he doesnt endorse the girl, what do i do? tell me. i love the girl and i love my father. i want them both. what do i do? tell me. dump my dad, who has loved me all his life? dump a girl, who has done me no wrong?

my father's generation grew up with a mind set that we did not experience as we were growing up. we are different. but then until the generation that saw this culture passes away, it may be with us for a while. most young guys i know today know very little about osu, but do you know the good news . . . they dont want to know.

imagine a world where no one wants to know about it. it fades away. so dont ask dont tell works

but there are experts here who disagree.

prittigrrr:

Also, how can u diminish the situation by saying it is only a 'psychological stigma' and not torture? Have u ever heard the term psychological torture? And yes, in the US, AAs have made great strides but I can guarantee it was not by ignoring racism and the racist past. Even Obama had to make a speech to confront these issues. They were not and will not be solved by ignoring them.

[list]
[li] I don't believe one can equate Psychological Stigma with Psychological Torture. BUT, since you think so, do you mind explaining how they are the same (within this context, of course)?[/li]
[li] I'm discussing the mindset, not the actions. Racism is not a mindset, racism is an act. I think the word you may be looking for is Prejudice. Blacks (why do we call them AA's?) eliminated racism because they fought it, but you cannot fight prejudice. Prejudice is psychological and the only way for it to go away is through time.[/li]
[li] Since you happen to believe that ignoring the issue isn't doing [won't do] justice (which, many disagree with), do you have any suggestions/offers/ideas/methodologies as to how best to deal with the issue?[/li]
[/list]

Thanks. You've never (well, at least, as far as I remember) once said anything nice to me, about me

Never exactly been mean to you either

Just saying if you take the history of osu and take that of the caste system in Asia, there are similarities. take the "untouchables" for instance.

Can someone give that oloribu omo ashewo asinwin-elect a bottle btw so he can quit crying on my shoes? Thanks.

KarmaMod:

Never exactly been mean to you either

. . .Now that I think about it, that's true.

KarmaMod:

Just saying if you take the history of osu and take that of the caste system in Asia, there are similarities. take the "untouchables" for instance.

Oh. okay. Well, I'll go and read up on it. In the mean time, do you mind telling me what you know about the history of Osu?

Chine,

I don't know you enough but judging from your responses you seem more reliable and mature enough to engage on this discussion.

I can understand the consensus amongst your people to let the sleeping dog lie, hopefully this will be his everlast. The problem is this dog, like a cat, has nine lives! Avoiding to tackle a problem headon in hope that it will ultimately resolve itself is a short term remedy. It patches the issue, it does not fix the problem. I am speaking with sincerity of heart here and I am saying the same thing here that I said in a topic on reparation, that. . .in any social interaction where liberty of life is denied then psychological damage is done. Sometimes, depending on the length of the problem the damage is irreversible.

It's not just the victim that is hurt, the victimizer end up carrying a bagage of emotional guilt on their conscience as well and both of them need healing. The healing occurs when they encounter one another in a face to face honest and peaceful negotiation for truce, peace, healing, forgiveness and correction. A peaceful negotiation does not happen with silent avoidance. You don't wantto dodge the issue, you want to act in a position of leadership and call the conference and get a talk going.

I admit, it will be difficult for the free born Igbos to initiate a reconciliation move, although that action is most desirable and it becomes obvious that in trying to save face, your people have accepted that doing nothing will erase the wrongdoing and so it's best left alone. It will take brave young generation of free borns to confront their elders and get the blessing to initiate a reconciliation. Using the reconciliation approach will take years of negotiation back and forth between the freeborns and the osus but gradually the years will wear away the pain and injury of their soul and refresh within it the memory of your humility. That's what you want - the transformation from within, a re-awakening, a re-birth in which future generations of Igbos are not demarcated along blood lines of freeborn and osu ancestry. What you do not want is to dodge reconciliation and commit future generations of osu babies to carry that stigma and the pain in their soul to the graves.

Chine, someone like you have the brilliance and wisdom to lead that call. Nothing can be beyond your reach except what you fail to reach for. Give it a try! Start a forum or topic for it on the web, get the chatter going. Or find couple of people with your mindset and level of judgement and see whatyou can do to uplift spirits. I won't say the same of Pres-Elect, he does not yet know who he is much more what who he is not and asking him to facilitate healing is like asking Idi Amin to lead United Nations.

On a side note, I still want to know if a deceased osu carries that status to grave or does the stigmate terminate when life ends, do they have designated graveyards?

If only you folks will use google,there are tons of awareness on Osu issues
There's been lectures,seminars and all sorts of awareness condemning this evil stigma.
Thare are many who have married the so called osus
There are towns that have apologized to the so called osus for the sins of their fathers
[b]There are laws in place as far back as 1957,making it a crime to discriminate against osus[/b]Just like the issues of FGM, tribal scarifications, child marriage, things take time to disappear completely.
There's been tremendous progress made

Please forgive me if my comments make it seem as if I am or thought I was an expert on Igbo culture.  I do not, did not and will not ever make that contention.  It was not my intent to give that impression.  The only reason that I used the AA comparisons is because  I am very familiar with African Americans, being one myself.  I only raised issues that I feel are compelling and would be good to review.  However, I can never, ever, nor will I ever offer a solution.  I can not speak on things I know nothing of.  

Now, maybe the word tortue was a strong one, but I merely meant to show that to say that something is "only psychological stigma" seeks to diminish the effects the actions can have on the psyche of a person. If you are not an Osu, how do you know that it is "only a stigma" and that the stigma is minimal? Only an Osu can speak to that issue.

backward culture.

@ Negro_Ntns  & prittigrrr
----- Osisi posted some wonderful information.

Now. . in response to both of your posts. . . It seems as though you two are understimating the effectiveness of the "don't ask, don't tell" policy specifically in regards to the Osu issue. It also seems as though you're under the assumption that the whole idea is to fix the problem that our ancestors created. I, personally, don't see how it can be fixed, because as I said before, it seems that no one truly, thoroughly knows/understands the issue (maybe someone does, I wouldn't know). So the only thing that can be done is to work against the Osu issue, rather than attempt to "fix" something that we are still currently unsure of how/where it "broke". This is where "don't ask, don't tell" comes in. I believe that "don't ask, don't tell" is best suitable for this situation because of two reasons. 1) you cannot tell who is Osu, and who isn't, by just looking at him/her, and 2) the objective is to reintegrate Osu descendants back into Igbo society.  

Now, with the "don't ask, don't tell" policy, the "Osu Tag" is pushed out of the way. Because no one asks, and no one tells, no one identifies. "Don't ask, don't tell" policy compliments the fact that an Osu cannot be identified by just looking at him/her. That's one major step taken that can/will ensure the proper integration of Osu descendants into Igbo Society (which is number two). We (Diala) are telling them (Osu) that they do not need to worry about being "Osu" anymore. We don't care for the whole Osu business. "We won't ask you, and you don't need to tell us. So don't worry." This alone helps get remove/diminish/eliminate whatever stigma/psychological 'torture' the Osu feel, because it is an indication to them that we are forgoing of the cultural practice. They are Diala, no matter what happened in the past. This also helps to ensure reason #2 because it then allows them to freely feel as though they can integrate into society (which they very much have).

"Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is a sufficient-enough policy. Very potent, and very reliable. No one is going around avoiding/ignoring the fact that injustices have been done in the past. We are only stating that we do not care anymore for what happened in the past. See, my generation knows next to nothing about Osu, and even moreso, we care even less than we know. The generation after mine will know basically nothing, and won't even care at all to know. Before you know it, Osu will only be a thing of the history books. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" works.

I understand your position and can not speak to its efficacy but sincerely hope it works.

From

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-23527.0.html

I myself will NEVER marry osu, not because I don't like them. It is because of the stigma the igbos has on them. For example, they do not involve in active igbo events. No one will elect an osu person as a governor, local chairmen, Eze, Chief, etc.

If an Osu people tries to speak on behalf of the igbo he/she is immediately discredited, because of this stigma. I still have great ambitions for myself and would not want something to hold me back.

If you are not igbo you can never understand. This thing will NEVER go away and I feel very sorry for them. We call it Ome na ala (The law of our land) We cannot leave ome na ala and start to do ome na elu (Not the law of the land)

When you go to village and see how these people leaves, you would feel sorry from them. They do not trade because nobody would buy from them. In school nobody plays with osu children etc, it is really terrible.

Read that thread VERY well and see many people say that even now they would never associate with such people. Like I said before, denial isnt gonna work. Olden days ko. Future days ni.

It's truly a shameful aftermath of idol worship that has refused to go away.
There are several stories of how it started but the one I read is that back in the days of intervillage wars, some people who feared capture went to shrines and asked the local deities to protect them.
They ended us serving as the servants of the deities and became stigmatized.
The original intentions of the forefathers who started this was good in their eyes.
They wanted to protect themselves and their offsprings from these people dedicated to idols so to say.
Hundreds of years later,there are no intervillage wars,no one asking the idols for protection yet innocent people are discriminated against based on the innocent actions of their ancestors.
Some  so called Christians go as far as saying that the people are under a curse because their fathers were dedicated to idols.
I pray it goes away and very fast too.
It is very wicked

So then you are saying something that was already offensive was made even more off limits by the teachings of Christianity. Is that right, are you saying that Christianity gave legitimacy to the pre-existing social condemnation?

prittigrrr:

I understand your position and can not speak to its efficacy but sincerely hope it works.

Do you have any reason to believe that it will not work?

KarmaMod:

From

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-23527.0.html

Read that thread VERY well and see many people say that even now they would never associate with such people. Like I said before, denial isnt gonna work. Olden days ko. Future days ni.

All I can say is that I suspect that the people posting there and saying what they're saying are most likely not part of my generation. I can also say that no one is denying anything. At this very point, I am not sure how else to clarify my point without repeating what I've already said. It does though, seem to me though that the main issue with Osu occurs in the villages. If that's the case, then those in Nigeria will take up the responsibility of handling that. I haven't been in Nigeria for about 13 years (left when I was around 5 or 6). I haven't experienced what life is like in the village, though I know about it. I plan on experiencing it and finding out more though on my first trip back (hopefully this summer). But from what I know, the Osu issue is virtually non-existent for us (Ngwa Igbo people). I don't know of any Ngwa person that takes the Osu business seriously (even back home in Nigeria). It is shoved aside. I have and know of, and speak with cousins who live in the village, but they're as much in the dark about the Osu issue as I am. I cannot speak for other Igbo tribes and clans, because I don't know. Maybe the whole Osu issue is running rampant in other parts of Igboland that I don't know of. Yes, it's a sad story, but it is already effectively dying away. Unfortunately, there is no quick fix to this issue. So it will take generations for it to fade away, but it will fade away.

To add to that. . . I also notice that a good number of people (who I suspect are Igbo) who posted there didn't really have an idea of what Osu is. Someone even went ahead to say that no one really cares for it anymore. That is the "don't ask, don't tell" policy in effect. "Don't Ask" as in, "I don't care to know'. "Don't Tell", as in, "I don't care to be told". . . I've just repeated myself again.

@**osisi
---- I've read that story, but I've heard [was told] a slightly different one.