noblefada:


Can you please stop this ignorant posts already! Writing so confidently about a God you know nothing about. At least get the right knowledge about the God first, rather than wasting many years posting irrelevant questions and jibes based on rumors you've heard about God.
Go to www.livingwordmedia.org and get the requisite knowledge, the teachings are free to download.

joseph1013:


Yes or No, is there a payment transaction option on the site or not? Religious organizations claim not to cajole people to part with their monies, but we know how that works in the real world.



Are you trying to say that you are like the person who has the PhD in Quantum Physics and I'm like the diploma holder in Music? That's fine. But there is a saying, "we learn something from everyone who passes through our lives..." Please allow me to drink from your fountain of knowledge. I would love an answer to this: why do you believe Christianity is true as compared to other religions? Remember that 1st Peter 3:15 says, "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you..." Please don't think me too lowly for a response.



Well, it could be true that I am lacking in knowledge about God but there is no way we can know for sure unless we have a discussion about it. I personally think I am quite vast in these things, but then I have been wrong before. Why not give us a summary of what the track talks about. I am very familiar with the book of Genesis and most of the doctrines Nigerian pastors have coined from it.

ValentineMary:
Someone opens a thread where he post his thoughts and qus and u get offended. That's some serious ish bro. I mean daily churches disturbe but I don't get offended. So why should u get offended over some nairaland post?

noblefada:


First, I never denied it was not a payment option, but it was never meant for anyone to pay for the materials because the materials are absolutely free. Actually it only came up on the site a few months ago, because true Christianity teaches that anyone who is blessed Spiritually should communicate canals things to him/organisations that blesses him. Since many of those who benefit from the website are from all over the world and had shown intention to keep this simple bible principle, my Pastor had no other option but put it up, doing otherwise would have been living in disobedience.

The intent of the analogy was not classify based on the strata of knowledge, but to show the wide disparity in content. Please, I'm not trying to belittle you or anyone but will appreciate if you can understand that if we start a debate, it will only lead to folly, because you'll think I'm mad! The points I'll raise for my arguments and the side I'll come from will totally be oblivious to you, because if 90% those who are believers (Christians), who have the hope of internal will have a very had time accepting what I'm going to be saying saying and may even fight me over it, how much a man without the Spirit?

You may think that you've acquired an enamors amount of knowledge over the years, but I can tell you that they were all from the wrong source.

Let me give you a few examples

What if I told you that God can never do evil, has never done evil or killed anyone, simply because he lack the capability to?

From the book of Genesis, what if I told there was never a tree of the knowlede good and evil, nor was there a fruit or even a talking serpent?

What if I told you that they were no contradictions in the bible but the contradictions are actually in the heart of men, because they fail to understand that the bible was written in progressive revelation that many of the writers knew so little about God, and in fact their greatest desire was to know God. If you truly believe that there are contradictions in the bible, then the first culprit should be Jesus Christ because it seemed He contradicted many things the old testament said, try reading Math 5:1-end.

What of if I told you that no one ever saw God in the old testament not even Moses, that the Lord he communicated with was an Angel. Or for laughs, what if I told you that satan was never in heaven and did not fall down from heaven nor was he a choir master or music director. What if i told you that God din't not give the Israelite all the 613 laws but they were actually inventions of Moses with the aid of an angel??

I can go on on, but for us to have any fruitful discussion, I will prefer you listen to the materials at least if only the one I recommended, so as to give you a picture of what I believe. See, as much as God wants all men to be saved and is relying on us to make that happen, we're usually not perturbed by atheists because we see it has a waste of our precious time. I challenge any atheist who is so sure of his/her believe to get those materials, listen to them and then he can try and defend what he believes.

Now to your question, let me indulge you. The is only one simple reason why I'm so sure that Christianity is the only true and main religion, is not because many concepts of science that were clearly explained in the bible thousands of years before science caught up with it and confirmed them to be true (book of Job a classical example), nor is because the bible was written over 4 thousand years by different authors who never knew themselves, but spoke and prophesied accurately the same things and also things that were to happen hundreds of years after they were gone. No it not because the life and actions of Christ were prophesied hundreds of years before he was born even up to the words he spoke,no book could be that accurate, to the extend that 4 whole books (Mathew to John) dedicated to document and bear witness that this actually happen. Nor is it because there are plethora of evidence confirmed by historians and archaeologists of the existence of places, people and events that were exclusively mentioned in the Holy Book, No all this things although they count but are not the really evidence, the only one reason why I am so sure I didn't make a mistake is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in me, which Jesus promised to give to all those who believe in His name and work upon His Resurrection!

[b]Lies! How did the Bible clearly explained scientific concepts? How old is this planet according to the bible? 6 to 10,000 years. While science gives a more accurate description like 4 billion years. The Bible does not hold a candle to science in terms of explaining the natural world and providing for mankind.

Believers used words in the book of Job like Job 26:7, "...hangeth the earth upon nothing." as saying the Bible explained natural phenonemon so well before modern science. Wrong! The quote from Job is misleading. Even if the earth "hangeth upon nothing", something that "hangeth" must still hangeth from something. The fact that Job talks about the earth hanging at all is proof of its falsity. Now, if Job said something like "the earth floateth among the emptiness of the void", religionists would have something to talk about. However, saying that the earth "hangeth upon nothing" is no more meaningful than saying that "the convicted criminal hangeth upon nothing". I mean, yeah... obviously, he hangeth upon nothing. If he hangethed upon something, it would defeat the whole purpose of hanging him.

Unfortunately for Job, the earth hangeth upon the gravitational attraction of the Sun - otherwise it would wizz off into space.

About different authors writing the same things, arghhh...you can make anything to fit the narrative. Scholars have looked intently at the supposed prophesized and have found that they are at best ambigious and most of the time untrue. Spare me that rhethoric.

Matthew to John? You don't even know the history of those books. None of them is accurate. They are a copy of the copy of the copy. They have been edited and edited for purpose. The book of John, for instance, has more than 4 different varieties with widely varying texts. Do you know that none of the disciples of Christ wrote any of the gospels? Do you know that they were not eye-witness accounts? Do you know that many more gospels exists apart from the four gospels which Emperor Constantine refused to accept? Study church history, brother. Your Pastor, from what I have heard in the tracks, does not know a lot.

So the real reason you believe Christianity is true is because you believe you have the Holy Spirit? LOL

A few days back, I was telling a Christian friend of mine about speaking in tongues. She said she speaks in tongues and I told her that I have not lost mine. I went ahead to speak gibberish and she was left confused. She knows I am not a Christian, but by virtue of being a very devoted believer in the past, I can still summon the speaking in tongues in a convincing manner. LOL

It's all in the mind. There is no Holy Spirit.

Let me ask you: What has the Holy Spirit afforded you that unbelievers do not have? What is unique about the Holy Spirit in your life that differentiates you from other people who are not christians? In other words, what is your unique advantage?[/b]

My dear, that is the only reason why I know I can never make a mistake. Have you met the Holy Ghost, if you eventually do, then you will understand my confidence in this matter.

Shalom

noblefada:


I got offended because the OP over the years has made a lot of wrong assumptions about God based on the skewed information he has about God. Let me ask you this question, although it will make more sense if you were a medical doctor or a lawyer. Assuming I open up a thread to discuss how to be a doctor or practice law on nairaland and most of the facts and materials I supposedly use in backing up my claims or in explaining the profession in question are all from scenes or scripts from various Nollywood movies! Will clap for me that I'm doing well and have the right to express myself in a public forum

Pls can u spot out this wrong assumptions

joseph1013:


It's a bait-and-switch tactic. Perhaps your Pastor didn't tell you how it works. What you do is make yourself the authority on a subject and release 'good' materials on the subject. That way you gain the trust of your subjects. At a later date, you 'encourage' them to give to support the good works you are doing using sly tactics. You tell them they are not giving to you but giving to a higher purpose, in this case God, and that by giving they will be blessed, infering that those who give will be blessed more than those who didn't.

It's a con tactic and it's fraudulent. God rewards no one for giving, there has been no solid evidence for that.



You claim in another comment that you have been following this page for a while. If truly you have, then better believe that there is not an argument that you will make that I have not heard before. I have looked at everything you wrote in the comment and it does not sound like the wisdom of Socrates. They are still the same rehased words we have heard over and over again. Quit claiming superior knowledge and just answer the questions, Mr.



I had spare time last night and I listened to snippets of some tracks on that site. If you wholeheartedly believe some of the comments he made and it is on those basis that you claim superior knowledge, then it suffices to say that you have been thoroughly brainwashed. The man simply claims esoteric knowledge of the Bible as ministered to him by the Holy Spirit, and as usual, he has no evidence to back up his claims. I won't take him serious if I were you.



[b]You have not really read your Bible. In the Bible, Satan killed Job's family. So let's say about 10 or so people. In contrast, God killed millions. If you use only numbers that are provided in the Bible, here's how many God killed: 2,821,364.

Here are but a few example:

- God drowns the whole earth.
In Genesis 7:21-23, God drowns the entire population of the earth: men, women, children, fetuses, and perhaps unicorns. Only a single family survives. In Matthew 24:37-42, gentle Jesus approves of this genocide and plans to repeat it when he returns.

- God kills half a million people.
In 2 Chronicles 13:15-18, God helps the men of Judah kill 500,000 of their fellow Israelites

- God slaughters all Egyptian firstborn.
In Exodus 12:29, God the baby-killer slaughters all Egyptian firstborn children and cattle because their king was stubborn.

- God kills 14,000 people for complaining that God keeps killing them.
In Numbers 16:41-49, the Israelites complain that God is killing too many of them. So, God sends a plague that kills 14,000 more of them.

Only a thoroughed brain-washed person, or a sadist will truly believed God killed no one in the Bible.[/b]



You see, these are some of the esoteric revelations I was talking about with your Pastor. He makes dubious claims and all he says as proof is that he got them from the Holy Spirit. It does not take a genius to say that.

Here is from the Bible itself:

Genesis 2:17 (NIV) "...but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."

Genesis 3:1 (NIV) "Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

Claim ignorance of what is expressly written all you want, it does not remove what we have in the Bible. It simply means you are proud in ignorance.



Of course, Jesus contradicted himself. He did in many places in the Bible. One of them is Matthew 18:28 (NIV): "Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

As you can see, he had no idea what he was talking about. All he spoke to (if he actually spoke to them) are long dead.

The reason for this and many of the contradictions in the Bible is simple, God speaks to no one. We have not seen any proof that God speaks to any body. All that was written in the Bible were written by Iron Age people who had no idea about modern civilization. They were crude men who based on limited understanding about the modern world.



Just like in any religion, there are several sects. Obviously, it seems the sect your Pastor leads is the one which believes in what you just wrote. Good for you. You should be grateful to science and what it has achieved for you, because lesser beliefs than these have sparked great wars between denominations in Christianity. Read about the Religious Wars in France. Believe whatever suits you, but we will not take you serious unless you provide evidence.



I have listened to some parts, and like I said earlier, you regurgitated some of the thoughts I heard. Most of them are outright lies, the others are mere esoteric beliefs that have no substance. There is nothing earth-shattering about those materials, bro. It's the same same mythical ideologies. They don't pose much of a challenge, believe me.



[b]Lies! How did the Bible clearly explained scientific concepts? How old is this planet according to the bible? 6 to 10,000 years. While science gives a more accurate description like 4 billion years. The Bible does not hold a candle to science in terms of explaining the natural world and providing for mankind.

Believers used words in the book of Job like Job 26:7, "...hangeth the earth upon nothing." as saying the Bible explained natural phenonemon so well before modern science. Wrong! The quote from Job is misleading. Even if the earth "hangeth upon nothing", something that "hangeth" must still hangeth from something. The fact that Job talks about the earth hanging at all is proof of its falsity. Now, if Job said something like "the earth floateth among the emptiness of the void", religionists would have something to talk about. However, saying that the earth "hangeth upon nothing" is no more meaningful than saying that "the convicted criminal hangeth upon nothing". I mean, yeah... obviously, he hangeth upon nothing. If he hangethed upon something, it would defeat the whole purpose of hanging him.

Unfortunately for Job, the earth hangeth upon the gravitational attraction of the Sun - otherwise it would wizz off into space.

About different authors writing the same things, arghhh...you can make anything to fit the narrative. Scholars have looked intently at the supposed prophesized and have found that they are at best ambigious and most of the time untrue. Spare me that rhethoric.

Matthew to John? You don't even know the history of those books. None of them is accurate. They are a copy of the copy of the copy. They have been edited and edited for purpose. The book of John, for instance, has more than 4 different varieties with widely varying texts. Do you know that none of the disciples of Christ wrote any of the gospels? Do you know that they were not eye-witness accounts? Do you know that many more gospels exists apart from the four gospels which Emperor Constantine refused to accept? Study church history, brother. Your Pastor, from what I have heard in the tracks, does not know a lot.

So the real reason you believe Christianity is true is because you believe you have the Holy Spirit? LOL

A few days back, I was telling a Christian friend of mine about speaking in tongues. She said she speaks in tongues and I told her that I have not lost mine. I went ahead to speak gibberish and she was left confused. She knows I am not a Christian, but by virtue of being a very devoted believer in the past, I can still summon the speaking in tongues in a convincing manner. LOL

It's all in the mind. There is no Holy Spirit.

Let me ask you: What has the Holy Spirit afforded you that unbelievers do not have? What is unique about the Holy Spirit in your life that differentiates you from other people who are not christians? In other words, what is your unique advantage?[/b]



Read the first post I wrote on this thread. I am fairly certain that in your Christian walk, you have not matched my level of devotion when I was a Christian. Good enough, I have not lost my knowledge of Christianity.

noblefada:


You see why i never wanted to start at all, you guys become apprehensive when confronted with the truth, a bit busy now, but I'll make it has brief as possible.

First, the bible never said the earth is 4,000 - 10,000 years, it is all the assumptions of men, that's why I've been telling you that your info in actually from the wrong source. The earth is actually over billions of years old and I can tell it will take scientists a while to completely explain the time space which the bible has already done, in fact it is only the bible that can clearly explain what happened in the billion of years and may the disappearance of certain animal species. But let me give you a lead, the years you see in the bible only started counting after man fell in the garden of Eden, after Adam disobeyed, how long he lived before that time nobody knows.

The Job scenario is another reason i hate the seemly craftiness of atheists in trying to disapprove God, they will want to use the knowledge and language of modern day to explain things discuss in the bible thousands of years ago, even when the bible was being compiled, this knowledge was still not available at that time, so the mode of communication was appropriate at that time, are you sincerely arguing that Job should have been concise about space and the configuration of the earth? but let me say this when you guys read other historians and prominent scientists of old who gave snippets of things today base on what was known at that time, you accept them and even explain them further base on knowledge gained over time but expect that the bible that predated them should have been more accurate.

Do you know my Pastor? have you read any of his books or materials? how many of his messages have you listened to? have you ever sat down in a service where a taught or preached in, in other words on what basis do you concluded that my Pastor doesn't know much?

About the 4 gospels, why don't you use the same arguments on the other scriptures or the old testament? Just reading the gospel of John and the book of 1 John, you will know it was written by the same author. Please kindly tell me what is the function of the 4 gospels in the bible and how it is significantly different from the epistles even when they were written at the same time and probably after the epistles was written.

Now to the Holy Spirit, I won't say much but this, you see the major issue many atheists and some professed Christians have is that the were never truly born again, what is known as false conversion. let me ask you a simple question, how does a man get born again (become saved and a christian), kindly support your answer with bible passages.

Why is the Holy Spirit so unique, you can never know until you taste him, there is no way you can ever convinced a man who has eaten honey severally that honey is not sweet, you maybe able to confuse a growing infant/child, but definitely not a grown man.

And finally, the test of Christianity is not in the devotion or activity others christian monks would have been the best of preachers and miracle workers, nor is it the how much bible verses you can quote or the history or the exigencies you know about the bible, neither is it in how long you've been a christian or how much you give to the church, the true test of Christianity is in how much of the revelation knowledge you have about Christ Jesus Ephe 1:16-22, Ehp 3:14-21, Phil 1:9-11, Col 1:9-11, Phil 3:8-14

shalom

joseph1013:


Fair enough if your particular christian denomination does not agree with the Bible scholars who say the bible is between 4,000-10,000. But if you use the type of interpretation people like Lita Cosner use, it is difficult to disagree as a Christian. I can see that your sect uses the The Gap Theory. Again, fair enough. There are no two sects in Christianity that agree on everything, so that's not surprise. And it's a dent on Christianity.

But you have been vague about the age of the earth. If you have an exclusive understanding of the scriptures you should be able to tell us the precise age of the earth. How old is earth? And tell us what you think the Bible says about time space. Perhaps when science gets it right, we can come back and give you the Nobel Prize in Physics.



Isn't this a nice way to swerve the facts? So when the Bible says in 1 Samuel 2:8, "For the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s, and He has set the world upon them.", we should say that it was trying to communicate in the way they understand at the time, but when you latch unto the seeming correct, "...hangeth the earth upon nothing.", the Bible is teaching real science?

Don't be clever by half. You can't be in two places at the same time. You have to be consistent. The Bible is ignorant in science. There is no milder way to say it.



You told me to listen to tracks on that website and I have done that to some extent. None of his statements are original, that's for sure. There are people around the world who believe in the exact same doctrines. And most of them are outright lies, the others are mere esoteric beliefs that have no substance. I know you love your Pastor but you have to do more than regurgitating his beliefs. You need to arrive at conclusions yourself based on evidence. He does not own you or your thoughts.



[b]I am sorry to have to say this, but you sir have got not much knowledge of the history of the church and the Bible.

Many of the books of the New Testament were written by people who lied about their identity, claiming to be a famous apostle — Peter, Paul or James — knowing full well they were someone else. In modern parlance, that is a lie, and a book written by someone who lies about his identity is a forgery.

This was what Bart Erhman, Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies, has to say about the scriptures:

"It is one thing to say that the originals were inspired, but the reality is that we don't have the originals—so saying they were inspired doesn't help me much, unless I can reconstruct the originals. Moreover, the vast majority of Christians for the entire history of the church have not had access to the originals, making their inspiration something of a moot point. Not only do we not have the originals, we don't have the first copies of the originals. We don't even have copies of the copies of the originals, or copies of the copies of the copies of the originals. What we have are copies made later—much later. In most instances, they are copies made many centuries later. And these copies all differ from one another, in many thousands of places. As we will see later in this book, these copies differ from one another in so many places that we don't even know how many differences there are. Possibly it is easiest to put it in comparative terms: there are more differences among our manuscripts than there are words in the New Testament."[/b]



[b]You have committed a fallacy here called No true Scotsman. The no true scotsman fallacy is a way of reinterpreting evidence in order to prevent the refutation of one’s position.

Example: (1) Chidinma puts sugar on her beans.
(2) No (true) Igbo puts sugar on her beans.
Therefore:
(3) Chidinma is not a (true) Igbo.
Therefore:
(4) Chidinma is not a counter-example to the claim that no Igbo puts sugar on her beans.

That's what you committed here. You believe that no true Christian will experience the joy of the Holy Spirit and fall away, and if a Christian falls away, that means he was not a true Christian. A classic no true Scotsman fallacy.

Another one I hear regularly is that once one becomes a Christian one cannot become an atheist. Apparent counter-examples to this idea, people who appear to have faith but subsequently lose it like me, are written off using the ‘No True Scotsman’ fallacy: they didn’t really have faith, they weren’t true Christians. The claim that faith cannot be lost is thus preserved from refutation. Given such an approach, this claim is unfalsifiable, there is no possible refutation of it.

As you can see, your claim about the Holy Spirit is unfalsifiable, there is no possible refutation of it. And that's why my questions are so pertinent: What has the Holy Spirit afforded you that unbelievers do not have? What is unique about the Holy Spirit in your life that differentiates you from other people who are not christians? In other words, what is your unique advantage?[/b]

noblefada:


Only one answer to the final paragraph, THE LIFE OF GOD LIVING IN A MAN!

joseph1013:
noblefada, I see that you have refused to answer any of the queries I put to you in other parts of my response. Typical!

U are very wicked. See how u finish the guy. I have nothing more to say

ValentineMary:
U are very wicked. See how u finish the guy. I have nothing more to say

ValentineMary:
U are very wicked. See how u finish the guy. I have nothing more to say

noblefada:


I got offended because the OP over the years has made a lot of wrong assumptions about God based on the skewed information he has about God. Let me ask you this question, although it will make more sense if you were a medical doctor or a lawyer. Assuming I open up a thread to discuss how to be a doctor or practice law on nairaland and most of the facts and materials I supposedly use in backing up my claims or in explaining the profession in question are all from scenes or scripts from various Nollywood movies! Will clap for me that I'm doing well and have the right to express myself in a public forum

ValentineMary:
U are very wicked. See how u finish the guy. I have nothing more to say

joseph1013:
noblefada, I see that you have refused to answer any of the queries I put to you in other parts of my response. Typical!

ValentineMary:
U are very wicked. See how u finish the guy. I have nothing more to say

joseph1013:


You are still evading my questions. I will repeat them: What has the Life of God afforded you that unbelievers do not have? What is unique about the Life of God in your life that differentiates you from other people who are not Christians? In other words, what is your unique advantage?

joseph1013:


You are still evading my questions. I will repeat them: What has the Life of God afforded you that unbelievers do not have? What is unique about the Life of God in your life that differentiates you from other people who are not Christians? In other words, what is your unique advantage?

joseph1013:
You see, these are some of the esoteric revelations I was talking about with your Pastor. He makes dubious claims and all he says as proof is that he got them from the Holy Spirit. It does not take a genius to say that.
Here is from the Bible itself:
Genesis 2:17 (NIV) "...but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."
Genesis 3:1 (NIV) "Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
Claim ignorance of what is expressly written all you want, it does not remove what we have in the Bible. It simply means you are proud in ignorance.

noblefada:


Ok, let clarify some things.
I see that you’re not being honest. When you asked me concerning the earth being 4,000 – 10,000 years according to bible scholars. It is obvious you already knew that some Christians (sect as you call it) had already answered that, yet you used it as one of your major arguments. In other words either way I answered you had something to counter it. That’s not being fair and none of your logical friend could that out.
I have listened to some parts, and like I said earlier, you regurgitated some of the thoughts I heard. Most of them are outright lies, the others are mere esoteric beliefs that have no substance. There is nothing earth-shattering about those materials, bro. It's the same same mythical ideologies. They don't pose much of a challenge, believe me.
Your assertions that my Pastor said “the Holy Ghost to told” is making me doubt if we’re talking about the same person, because my Pastor has never said that and will never use such terminologies. For the records my Pastor is actually against personal revelation about the bible. Pls you know is name, kindly cross check your facts and come clarify to us where my Pastor actually used those words.
That being said, I’m a bit disappointed, I thought after listening to the track, you would have come with specific words my pastor and try and discredit them, rather than using spurious and bogus statement to describe what nobody knows about.
By the way when I mean snippets this is what I mean: for instance the teaching on “Understanding the law and the prophets” has two series consisting of 19 tracks and a total of 49 hours play time, so a snippet is to listen to just one track (may track 3 in series 1 which is 1hr 52mins) from begging to the end! Did you do that sir?



You see this why I sometimes have issues with those who cannot understand the bible (because they are spiritually dead) now trying to explain the bible more than those who it was written for. Let me educate you a bit, the book of genesis was written by Moses, it is obvious Moses wasn’t there because Moses was not born until Exodus 2. Therefore, Moses wrote the book of Genesis by revelation or what you will call today a vision. And in a vision, not all things are taken literally, some can be literal, some can be figurative, in the case of Genesis 2 & 3, the tree of life, three of knowledge and evil where all figurative. This why if study the bible, you will discover that in the old testament books, wherever the book of genesis is to be referenced they all stop at Abraham, because they did not have an understanding of the earlier part of the book.
Now why we know those stuff where figurative is very simple, the events in Genesis 3, was a major event that not only shaped humanity but after the bible itself because it is a very important subject. So out the book of Genesis, you will never see the tree referenced by anyone not even in the epistle, whenever it was to be referenced the writer used Adam disobeyed because they knew Moses was not talking about a tree. In fact the only mention of the 3 was the serpent in the book revelation “Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” “Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years”, so my dear stop arguing about something you don’t much about.
To take it a bit further and show you your folly, you did mention that satan was responsible for the deaths in the book of Job, but what the Job say “Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD, and Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.” You say it was satan that was responsible but Job said it was God, So who do we believe

[b] I am sorry to have to say this, but you sir have got not much knowledge of the history of the church and the Bible.
Many of the books of the New Testament, including the four gospels and the 1 epistle of John, were written by people who lied about their identity, claiming to be a famous apostle — Peter, Paul or James — knowing full well they were someone else. In modern parlance, that is a lie, and a book written by someone who lies about his identity is a forgery.
This was what Bart Erhman, Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies, has to say about the scriptures:
"It is one thing to say that the originals were inspired, but the reality is that we don't have the originals—so saying they were inspired doesn't help me much, unless I can reconstruct the originals. Moreover, the vast majority of Christians for the entire history of the church have not had access to the originals, making their inspiration something of a moot point. Not only do we not have the originals, we don't have the first copies of the originals. We don't even have copies of the copies of the originals, or copies of the copies of the copies of the originals. What we have are copies made later—much later. In most instances, they are copies made many centuries later. And these copies all differ from one another, in many thousands of places. These copies differ from one another in so many places that we don't even know how many differences there are. Possibly it is easiest to put it in comparative terms: there are more differences among our manuscripts than there are words in the New Testament." [/b]

I truly don’t understand this guy, are you saying that the whole new testament is a forgery?? Books that have been studied by many theologians and religious professors, including archaeologists who are not Christians have studied for hundreds of years, who can verify that the events and places mentioned in the bible took place or exist, there are enough evidences that the accounts that the events in the New testament actually happened, in fact just last week the National Geography are excavating the burial tomb of Jesus (not that I’m into all this, just brought it up for the sake of this argument) and you come to discredit all it because something ONE so called prominent Professor I have never heard or know is religious of said about the authors. Please tell me who is more logical to be believed, one professor or the many other theologians, professors and archaeologists.

Now let’s examine the statement of your so called prominent professor, according to you he said why the scriptures was not valid was because “Not only do we not have the originals, we don't have the first copies of the originals. We don't even have copies of the copies of the originals, or copies of the copies of the copies of the originals and there were differences?”
I put in to you, that if anyone come today with the original manuscripts or copy of the copy of the original, then we should rather question its authenticity rather than rejoice over because of the following:
1. This manuscripts were original written by different people at different times, they were had written because at that time there was no printing press that could mass produced them.
2. Secondly, this were not private documents, but was intended for mass consumption hence several copies would have been made. At this point, let me say for instance, when Paul wrote to the church at Corinth, it was not just once assembly, but many different local smaller congregations within the city (Tit 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee), so each local congregation would have duplicated a copy of the letter manually.
3. Now as the letter began to come, it was also duplicated by hand to other churches in other cities, because it was a public material for teaching Col 4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea: so we can begin to see different copies of the same letter. Please still bear in mind there were no printing press at that time so the letter couldn’t be mass produced.
4. As it is well documented in history, the early Christians were severely persecuted and most time had to go into hiding. Wherever they were caught they were brutally murdered and their possession brunt. So, what do you think would have happened to the early books during such times?
5. All the early Apostles that wrote the New Testament were all brutally murdered at different times and in different places, so assuming they had the original on them as traveled, do you think those who murdered them would’ve been gracious enough to preserve the manuscripts for historic purposes?
6. As per the difference in the written, that can easily explained, you see in those times the major spoken language/official language was Greek, and since it was not their first tongue, there would have of course been some discrepancies when this materials where being manually copied, just like today, we have the English Language, which has at least the British version and the American version. And last this manual copying where done by men.
7. Finally as early as the 15th 16th century, the roman catholic church withdrew all the bible in circulation and only put a locked up Latin version of it in Libraries and Museums. Before it was later again re-translated to the bible we have now

So you see, we have to question anyone who claims to have the origin or copies of the copies of the original, because from what I mentioned from the foregoing, it would be practically impossible to still have the original manuscripts and may I had the writers of the scriptures never envisage that one day their writings will be compiled into one book. So it beats me if no one ever questioned or disproved the assertions made by your prominent professor. So here is my question, is the dispute over the bible a dispute about its author or the content?

As you can see, your claim about the Holy Spirit is unfalsifiable, there is no possible refutation of it. And that's why my questions are so pertinent: What has the Holy Spirit afforded you that unbelievers do not have? What is unique about the Holy Spirit in your life that differentiates you from other people who are not Christians? In other words, what is your unique advantage?

You see that is a major mistake many make, including some Christians, Muslims, agnostics and atheists alike, they think and believe that the Christians should be validated with physical things! That is a major error, because the Christians is essentially a life in and of the Spirit! Anything less than that if a false region and that’s why a man not born again can never understand or receive from it.
1Co 2:12-14 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Again you can never convince a man who has ate honey severally that honey is NOT Sweet!

I still have more, but I’ll stop for now
Shalom.

noblefada:


Ok, let clarify some things.
I see that you’re not being honest. When you asked me concerning the earth being 4,000 – 10,000 years according to bible scholars. It is obvious you already knew that some Christians (sect as you call it) had already answered that, yet you used it as one of your major arguments. In other words either way I answered you had something to counter it. That’s not being fair and none of your logical friend could that out.

Your assertions that my Pastor said “the Holy Ghost to told” is making me doubt if we’re talking about the same person, because my Pastor has never said that and will never use such terminologies. For the records my Pastor is actually against personal revelation about the bible. Pls you know is name, kindly cross check your facts and come clarify to us where my Pastor actually used those words.

That being said, I’m a bit disappointed, I thought after listening to the track, you would have come with specific words my pastor and try and discredit them, rather than using spurious and bogus statement to describe what nobody knows about.
By the way when I mean snippets this is what I mean: for instance the teaching on “Understanding the law and the prophets” has two series consisting of 19 tracks and a total of 49 hours play time, so a snippet is to listen to just one track (may track 3 in series 1 which is 1hr 52mins) from begging to the end! Did you do that sir?

You see this why I sometimes have issues with those who cannot understand the bible (because they are spiritually dead) now trying to explain the bible more than those who it was written for. Let me educate you a bit, the book of genesis was written by Moses, it is obvious Moses wasn’t there because Moses was not born until Exodus 2. Therefore, Moses wrote the book of Genesis by revelation or what you will call today a vision. And in a vision, not all things are taken literally, some can be literal, some can be figurative, in the case of Genesis 2 & 3, the tree of life, three of knowledge and evil where all figurative. This why if study the bible, you will discover that in the old testament books, wherever the book of genesis is to be referenced they all stop at Abraham, because they did not have an understanding of the earlier part of the book.

Now why we know those stuff where figurative is very simple, the events in Genesis 3, was a major event that not only shaped humanity but after the bible itself because it is a very important subject. So out the book of Genesis, you will never see the tree referenced by anyone not even in the epistle, whenever it was to be referenced the writer used Adam disobeyed because they knew Moses was not talking about a tree. In fact the only mention of the 3 was the serpent in the book revelation “Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” “Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years”, so my dear stop arguing about something you don’t much about.

To take it a bit further and show you your folly, you did mention that satan was responsible for the deaths in the book of Job, but what the Job say “Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD, and Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.” You say it was satan that was responsible but Job said it was God, So who do we believe

I truly don’t understand this guy, are you saying that the whole new testament is a forgery?? Books that have been studied by many theologians and religious professors, including archaeologists who are not Christians have studied for hundreds of years, who can verify that the events and places mentioned in the bible took place or exist, there are enough evidences that the accounts that the events in the New testament actually happened, in fact just last week the National Geography are excavating the burial tomb of Jesus (not that I’m into all this, just brought it up for the sake of this argument) and you come to discredit all it because something ONE so called prominent Professor I have never heard or know is religious of said about the authors. Please tell me who is more logical to be believed, one professor or the many other theologians, professors and archaeologists.

Now let’s examine the statement of your so called prominent professor, according to you he said why the scriptures was not valid was because “Not only do we not have the originals, we don't have the first copies of the originals. We don't even have copies of the copies of the originals, or copies of the copies of the copies of the originals and there were differences?”
I put in to you, that if anyone come today with the original manuscripts or copy of the copy of the original, then we should rather question its authenticity rather than rejoice over because of the following:
1. This manuscripts were original written by different people at different times, they were had written because at that time there was no printing press that could mass produced them.
2. Secondly, this were not private documents, but was intended for mass consumption hence several copies would have been made. At this point, let me say for instance, when Paul wrote to the church at Corinth, it was not just once assembly, but many different local smaller congregations within the city (Tit 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee), so each local congregation would have duplicated a copy of the letter manually.
3. Now as the letter began to come, it was also duplicated by hand to other churches in other cities, because it was a public material for teaching Col 4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea: so we can begin to see different copies of the same letter. Please still bear in mind there were no printing press at that time so the letter couldn’t be mass produced.
4. As it is well documented in history, the early Christians were severely persecuted and most time had to go into hiding. Wherever they were caught they were brutally murdered and their possession brunt. So, what do you think would have happened to the early books during such times?
5. All the early Apostles that wrote the New Testament were all brutally murdered at different times and in different places, so assuming they had the original on them as traveled, do you think those who murdered them would’ve been gracious enough to preserve the manuscripts for historic purposes?
6. As per the difference in the written, that can easily explained, you see in those times the major spoken language/official language was Greek, and since it was not their first tongue, there would have of course been some discrepancies when this materials where being manually copied, just like today, we have the English Language, which has at least the British version and the American version. And last this manual copying where done by men.
7. Finally as early as the 15th 16th century, the roman catholic church withdrew all the bible in circulation and only put a locked up Latin version of it in Libraries and Museums. Before it was later again re-translated to the bible we have now

So you see, we have to question anyone who claims to have the origin or copies of the copies of the original, because from what I mentioned from the foregoing, it would be practically impossible to still have the original manuscripts and may I had the writers of the scriptures never envisage that one day their writings will be compiled into one book. So it beats me if no one ever questioned or disproved the assertions made by your prominent professor. So here is my question, is the dispute over the bible a dispute about its author or the content?

You see that is a major mistake many make, including some Christians, Muslims, agnostics and atheists alike, they think and believe that the Christians should be validated with physical things! That is a major error, because the Christians is essentially a life in and of the Spirit! Anything less than that if a false region and that’s why a man not born again can never understand or receive from it.
1Co 2:12-14 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Again you can never convince a man who has ate honey severally that honey is NOT Sweet!

I still have more, but I’ll stop for now
Shalom.

juicydiceyjoe:

The final/last being is then called God

That is the concept of theism I guess.

juicydiceyjoe:

The final/last being is then called God

That is the concept of theism I guess.

joseph1013:


A crazy concept. And I understand the argument. Where the intellectual dishonesty comes in is when they can't comprehend why the greater greater designer does not have to be designed? How? Explain? Am I not giving you back your argument?

Even a child understands why God needs a designer.

4kings:

What if the Principle of Causality, does not apply in the plane where the designer comes from?
What if this plane is an intrinsic part of this designer or the designer an intrinsic part of the plane?

hahn:


Assumptions, assumptions.

Do you have proof of these assumptions?

4kings:

What if the Principle of Causality, does not apply in the plane where the designer comes from?
What if this plane is an intrinsic part of this designer or the designer an intrinsic part of the plane?

joseph1013:


What if! What if the wristwatch found in the desert was not designed but dropped by aliens visiting earth (but they did not design it)?

I have heard the many variants of 'what if' before. But when I use the same 'what if' for creation, believers revolt saying they ARE sure my 'what is' is wrong. How do we reconcile that?