Horus:


The shepherds were outdoors in the fields tending their flocks, which they only did in the summer months

Now your December 25th is simply the Roman Festival of Saturnalia to worship the Roman god Saturn. Dies Natalis Solis Invicti means 'birthday of the unconquered sun' and was held on December 25th (when the Romans thought the Winter Solstice took place) and was the 'birthday' of the Pagan Sun god Mithra.

25th of december is not not saturnalia, saturnalia is between 17th-23rd december, sol invictus and mithra was only moved to 25th only after roman christian began celebrating christmas.

Horus:


No thank! I dont deal with beliefs I deal only with facts. Jesus Was Born In The Summer, just deal with the fact. You are so desperate to try to make me believe that snow can fall in the summer that you are even resorting to weather patterns manipulation. You cannot change the past so you cannot use the HAARP project to change the weather of the past. At the moment you are so busy saying: I dont know what I am talking about that you dont realise that you really dont know what you are talking about.

which silly fact is that?

Your so-called fact that the date of Jesus birth was set in the 15th century?


Are you aware that historic jewish sources clearly say that the migdal eder ie "tower of sheeps" is located in bethlehem and that the sherperds watch their flock all year round and still make their journey to jerusalem to provide sacrificial sheep even in the heavy rain?

Only ignorance will make you say sherpherds from bethlehem only watch in the summer.

Horus:


The shepherds were outdoors in the fields tending their flocks, which they only did in the summer months

Now your December 25th is simply the Roman Festival of Saturnalia to worship the Roman god Saturn. Dies Natalis Solis Invicti means 'birthday of the unconquered sun' and was held on December 25th (when the Romans thought the Winter Solstice took place) and was the 'birthday' of the Pagan Sun god Mithra.

25th of december is not not saturnalia, saturnalia is between 17th-23rd december, sol invictus and mithra was only moved to 25th only after roman christian began celebrating christmas.

Horus:


And did your bible talk about snow when he was born?

Give us the name of the chapter

Below is the first picture that you posted

Now right click with your mouse on your own picture and when the white window open just left click with your mouse on search Google for this image. Now you have as a result the original image of Shepherds in Iran

Shepherds moving their sheeps, between Khoy and Pasak-e Sofla, north-western Iran (picture Date january 2008 )

Source: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Shepherds_iran.jpg

www.nairaland.com/attachments/1985602_shepherdsiran_jpeg13c7a83102f80e39ccac60140e840ab9

if sherperds can move their sheep in winter in iran, what stop them from moving their sheep in bethlehem? Are you aware iran and isreal are still the same region?

JMAN05:


If you are wise, you wont disagree with it. But isn't this encyclopedia your official publication? How can your encyclopedia publish what your church doesnt believe? except the disagreement is from you alone.

actually, the "catholic encyclopedia" is not a church document of the catholic church, it thus has no authority, i know you are trying to use the logical fallacy called appeal to authority.

If you want a catholic church publication get ccc.

dolphinheart:


Sir, the questions are relevant .
I want to know the location of pandanaram so as to comfirm if its in isreal like u said and also know its climate during Dec period.

On the pic issue , we dnt know where that picture is taking yet
Personaly to me, I see shepherds moving sheeps, and I believe they are being moved for a reason not explained by the pics.
The pic ill like to see is shepherds sitting or standing together in the open at night in December in isreal with sheeps looking at both the shepherds and the camera like " are you humans nuts! "

bethlehem had the migdal eder, the sherperds of bethlehem were responsible for providing sheeps for the temple, they move all year round.



"That the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem, was a settled conviction. Equally so was the belief, that He was to be revealed
from Migdal Eder, the 'tower of the flock.'
This Migdal Eder was not the watchtower for the ordinary flocks which pastured on the barren sheepground beyond Bethlehem, but lay close to the town, on the road to Jerusalem. A passage in the Mishnah [Shek. vii. 4.] leads to the conclusion, that the flocks, which pastured there, were destined for Temple-sacrifices, and, accordingly, that the shepherds, who watched over them, were not ordinary shepherds. . .The same Mishnic passage also leads us to infer, that
these flocks lay out all the year round, since they are spoken of as in the fields thirty days before the Passover — that is, in the month
of February, when in Palestine the average rainfall is nearly greatest."

(Alfred Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, Book II, Chapter VI, Kindle location 3994).

For those who don't know alfred is a jew.

Ubenedictus:


bethlehem had the migdal eder, the sherperds of bethlehem were responsible for providing sheeps for the temple, they move all year round.



"That the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem, was a settled conviction. Equally so was the belief, that He was to be revealed
from Migdal Eder, the 'tower of the flock.'
This Migdal Eder was not the watchtower for the ordinary flocks which pastured on the barren sheepground beyond Bethlehem, but lay close to the town, on the road to Jerusalem. A passage in the Mishnah [Shek. vii. 4.] leads to the conclusion, that the flocks, which pastured there, were destined for Temple-sacrifices, and, accordingly, that the shepherds, who watched over them, were not ordinary shepherds. . .The same Mishnic passage also leads us to infer, that
these flocks lay out all the year round, since they are spoken of as in the fields thirty days before the Passover — that is, in the month
of February, when in Palestine the average rainfall is nearly greatest."

(Alfred Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, Book II, Chapter VI, Kindle location 3994).

For those who don't know alfred is a jew.

Ok o, I don here, like I said before, I dnt use the issue of shepherds being out in the field as a bases for not believing in the Dec 25th date.

My basis for not believing in Dec 25th are as follows .

1. The bible never mentioned such a date in relation to jesus birth.

2. Choosing that date is extremely controversial .

3. The reason for jesus parents travelling from Nazareth to Bethlehem (very long distance)was for the census. I dnt think its likely for ceaser to command the isrealites to move around during the winter period, not to talk of during the middle of winter.

4. Jesus lived 33 years and half years, if he died on Nissan 14 , easter period which is always around match/April , Then his birth date would not have been in Dec, talk less of the end of Dec .

5. The book u quoted from brings some questions forward .
A. What month is the Passover?.
B. Was jesus born 30 days to the Passover cus the shepherds would be in the field during that period?

All my points can be verified using the bible

Ubenedictus:


horus, was the date of Christ birth set on the 25th of december in the 15th century by a pope who later became an emperor?

Yes or no will do.

I dont know if he later became an emperor but the question that you should ask yourself is: Why a date of birth need to be set by a mortal ?. Also, the 25th of december is nowhere to be found in your Bible.

Ubenedictus:
if sherperds can move their sheep in winter in iran, what stop them from moving their sheep in bethlehem? Are you aware iran and isreal are still the same region?

I am aware that the 25th of december is nowhere to be found in your Bible

I am aware that the word Chistmas is NOT MENTIONED anywhere in your Bible

So what are you celebrating on that date?, Santa Claus?

And where did your bible talk about snow when he was born?

Give us the name of the chapter where the snow is mentioned at the time of birth

Post also the name of the chapter where the word winter is mentioned

Ubenedictus:
The Catholic Church, from at least the second century, has claimed that Christ was born on December 25. However, it is commonly alleged that our Lord Jesus Christ was not born on December 25.
For the sake of simplicity, let us set out the usual objections to the date of December 25 and counter each of them.


Objection 1: December 25 was chosen in order to replace the pagan Roman festival of Saturnalia. Saturnalia was a popular winter festival and so the
Catholic Church prudently substituted Christmas in its place.


Reply to Objection 1: Saturnalia
commemorated the winter solstice. Yet the winter solstice falls on December 22.
It is true that Saturnalia celebrations began as early as December 17 and extended till December 23. Still, the dates don’t match up.

It commenced from 17 and ends on 24. Why?

The Story of Christmas answers:

“there was a day set aside for special reverence to the sun whose apparent rebirth on the Winter Solstice had originally provided the excuse for all these widespread pagan jollifications. This day was known as Dies Solis Invicti Nati, the Day of the Birth of the Unconquered Sun, and it fell on what corresponds to 25 December in our calendar.”

To show that that day was replaced, we read:

the Vatican newspaper L’Osservatore Romano made some interesting observations.

Regarding the date when Christmas is celebrated, the Catholic newspaper said: “The real date of Jesus’ birth, from the historical viewpoint, lies concealed beneath a veil of uncertainty as regards Roman history, the imperial census of that time and research in the subsequent centuries. . . . The date of 25 December, as is well known, was chosen by the Church of Rome in the fourth century. This date in pagan Rome was dedicated to the Sun god . . . Although Christianity had already been affirmed in Rome by an Edict of Constantine, the myth of . . . the Sun god was still widespread, especially among soldiers. The above-mentioned festivities, centred on 25 December, were deeply rooted in popular tradition. This gave the Church of Rome the idea of impressing a Christian religious significance on the day by replacing the Sun god with the true Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ, choosing it as the day on which to celebrate his birth.”

Objection 2: December 25 was chosen to replace the pagan Roman holiday Natalis Solis Invicti which means “Birthday of the Unconquered Sun.”


Reply to Objection 2: Let us examine first the cult of the Unconquered Sun. The Emperor Aurelian introduced the cult of the Sol Invictus or Unconquered Sun to Rome in A.D. 274. Aurelian found political traction with this cult, because his own name Aurelian derives from the Latin word aurora denoting “sunrise.”
Coins reveal that Emperor Aurelian called himself the Pontifex Solis or Pontiff of the Sun. Thus, Aurelian simply accommodated a generic solar cult and identified his name with it at the end of the third century.
Most importantly, there is no historical record for a celebration Natalis Sol Invictus on December 25 prior to A.D. 354. Within an illuminated manuscript for the year A.D. 354, there is an entry
for December 25 reading “N INVICTI CM Bleep.” Here N means “nativity.” INVICTI means “of the Unconquered.” CM signifies “circenses missus” or “games
ordered.” The Roman numeral Bleep
equals thirty. Thus, the inscription
means that thirty games were order for the nativity of the Unconquered for December 25th. Note that the word “sun” is not present. Moreover, the very same codex also lists “natus Christus in
Betleem Iudeae” for the day of December 25. The phrase is translated as “birth of Christ in Bethlehem of Judea.”
The date of December 25th only became the “Birthday of the Unconquered Sun” under the Emperor Julian the Apostate.
Julian the Apostate had been a Christian but who had apostatized and returned to Roman paganism. History reveals that it was the hateful former Christian Emperor that erected a pagan holiday on
December 25. Think about that for a moment. What was he trying to replace?
These historical facts reveal that the Unconquered Sun was not likely a popular deity in the Roman Empire. The Roman people did not need to be weaned off of a so-called ancient holiday. Moreover, the tradition of a
December 25th celebration does not find a place on the Roman calendar until after the Christianization of Rome. The
“Birthday of the Unconquered Sun” holiday was scarcely traditional and hardly popular. Saturnalia (mentioned above) was much more popular, traditional, and fun. It seems, rather, that Julian the Apostate had attempted to
introduce a pagan holiday in order to replace the Christian one!

It is true that Julian became an apostate and made an effort to stamp out Christianity, but there is no historical prove that he established ceremony that was done on December 25th. And from that Catholic Newspaper the festivities were already popular in Rome. The sun god was popular, not only the Saturn god.

I wouldn’t say Aurelian introduced sun-god worship in 274. It seems that he made it a notable god of the empire. He proclaimed it the principal patron of the empire on Dec 25 and also built a temple for it. ISBE reports that the worship of Mithra had been among Roman soldiers as far back as the 2nd Century AD and it was popular amongst them. Dec 25 has always been its birthday. It could be that its popularity gained momentum from the time of Aurelian onwards.

Ubenedictus:
Objection 3: Christ could not have been born in December since Saint Luke describes shepherds herding in the neighboring fields of Bethlehem.
Shepherds do not herd during the
winter. Thus, Christ was not born in winter.


Reply to Objection 3: Recall that Palestine is not England, Russia, or Alaska. Bethlehem is situated at the latitude of 31.7. Dallas, Texas has the latitude of 32.8, and it’s still rather comfortable outside in December. As the great Cornelius a Lapide remarks during his lifetime, one could still see shepherds and sheep in the fields of Italy during late December, and Italy is at higher latitude than Bethlehem.

We know of those things, but you are ignoring the point we buttress. The point is based from Luke 2:8. Shepherds were living out of doors and keeping watch in the night over there flock. The statement refers to the practice by shepherds of leaving there homes, building pens for there flock and also building a tent for themselves outside there homes to tend there flock in the field. They do spend the night in the field watching over the flock. That is the point. It is not a matter of going out for pasture and returning that day when the sky looks dark.

Clark comments further:

“It was a custom among the Jews to send out their sheep to the deserts, about the passover, and bring them home at the commencement of the first rain: during the time they were out, the shepherds watched them night and day. As the passover occurred in the spring, and the first rain began early in the month of Marchesvan, which answers to part of our October and November, we find that the sheep were kept out in the open country during the whole of the summer. And as these shepherds had not yet brought home their flocks, it is a presumptive argument that October had not yet commenced, and that, consequently, our Lord was not born on the 25th of December, when no flocks were out in the fields; nor could he have been born later than September, as the flocks were still in the fields by night. On this very ground the nativity in December should be given up. The feeding of the flocks by night in the fields is a chronological fact, which casts considerable light upon this disputed point.” (Clarke’s Commentary, Vol. 5, page 370)

McClintock and Strong’s Cyclopædia presents a similar argument and further observes that the census, not the taxing, “which made travelling necessary (Luke 2:2 sq.), would not have been ordered at this season.”—Vol. 4, page 877

Now we move on to establishing the birthday of Christ from Sacred Scripture in two steps. The first step is to use Scripture to determine the birthday of Saint John the Baptist. The next step is
using Saint John the Baptist’s birthday as the key for finding Christ’s birthday. We can discover that Christ was born in late
December by observing first the time of year in which Saint Luke describes Saint Zacharias in the temple. This provides us with the approximate conception date
of Saint John the Baptist. From there we can follow the chronology that Saint Luke gives, and that lands us at the end of December.

Saint Luke reports that Zacharias served in the “course of Abias” (Lk 1:5) which Scripture records as the eighth course among the twenty-four priestly courses (Neh 12:17). Each shift of priests served one week in the temple for two times
each year. The course of Abias served during the eighth week and the thirty-second week in the annual cycle.
However, when did the cycle of
courses begin?
Josef Heinrich Friedlieb has convincingly established that the first priestly course of Jojarib was on duty during the destruction of Jerusalem on the ninth day of the Jewish month of Av. Thus the priestly course of Jojarib was on
duty during the second week of Av.
Consequently, the priestly course of Abias (the course of Saint Zacharias) was undoubtedly serving during the second week of the Jewish month of Tishri—the
very week of the Day of Atonement on the tenth day of Tishri. In our calendar, the Day of Atonement would land anywhere from September 22 to October 8.
Zacharias and Elizabeth conceived John the Baptist immediately after Zacharias served his course. This entails that Saint John the Baptist would have been conceived somewhere around the end
of September, placing John’s birth at the end of June, confirming the Catholic Church’s celebration of the Nativity of Saint John the Baptist on June 24.
Immediately after this entry into the temple and message of the Archangel Gabriel, Zacharias and Elizabeth conceive John the Baptist. Allowing for forty weeks of gestation, this places the birth
of John the Baptist at the end of June—once again confirming the Catholic date for the Nativity of Saint John the Baptist on June 24.

The rest of the dating is rather simple.
We read that just after the Virgin Mary conceived Christ, she went
to visit her cousin Elizabeth who was six months pregnant with John the Baptist.
This means that John the Baptist was six months older that our Lord Jesus Christ (Lk 1:24-27, 36). If you add six months to June 24 you get December 24-25 as the birthday of Christ. Then, if you subtract nine months from December 25 you get that the Annunciation was March 25. All the dates match up perfectly. So then, if John the Baptist was
conceived shortly after the Jewish Day of the Atonement, then the traditional Catholic dates are essentially correct. The birth of Christ would be about or on December 25.


Sacred Tradition also confirms December 25 as the birthday of the Son of God. The source of this ancient tradition is the Blessed Virgin Mary herself. Ask any
mother about the birth of her children. She will not only give you the date of the birth, but she will be able to rattle off the time, the location, the weather, the weight of the baby, the length of the baby, and a number of other details.

Please how did this Heinrich arrive at this Av as the time the service of Jehoiarib was on it’s first course?
Which destruction of Jerusalem is he talking about, by Babylon or by Rome?

Jerusalem’s destruction was a long time after/before Jesus birth? How could he then calculate the course that will be running years before/after the event?

Is he making an inference based on what happened the month of Jerusalem’s destruction? If so, the conclusion will be faulty because there are changes between the long years that will make that inference illogical. See below.

Did he take into consideration the month changes that frequently occur in the jewish calendar to make it up to the Solar Calendar?
There were joint services by the Priest in the day of atonement and subsequent festivals that take place by that same month. The courses don’t run during this period ‘cos there are lots of sacrifices to be done. Joint effort is thus required.

The same occurs in the other two festivals by the Jews. The calculation above didn’t take this into consideration. The conclusion is thus based on a sandy foundation.

Ubenedictus:
Now ask yourself: Would the Blessed Virgin Mary ever forget the birth of her Son Jesus Christ who was conceived without human seed, proclaimed by angels, born in a miraculous way, and visited by Magi? She knew from the moment of His incarnation in her stainless womb that He was the Son of God and Messiah. Would she ever forget
that day?

Next, ask yourself: Would the Apostles be interested in hearing Mary tell the story?
Of course they would. Do you think the holy Apostle who wrote, “And the Word was made flesh,” was not interested in the minute details of His birth? Even when we walk around with our kids son, people always ask “How
old is he?” or “When was he born?”
Don’t you think people asked this
question of Mary?
So the exact birth date (December 25) and the time (midnight) would have been known in the first century.
Moreover, the Apostles would have asked about it and would have, no doubt, commemorated the blessed event that both Saint Matthew and Saint Luke chronicle for us. In summary, it is completely reasonable to state that the early Christians both knew and commemorated the birth of Christ. Their source would have been His Immaculate Mother.


Further testimony reveals that the
Church Fathers claimed December 25 as the Birthday of Christ prior to the conversion of Constantine and the Roman Empire. The earliest record of this is that Pope Saint Telesphorus (reigned A.D. 126-137) instituted the tradition of Midnight Mass on Christmas
Eve. Although the Liber Pontificalis does not give us the date of Christmas, it assumes that the Pope was already celebrating Christmas and that a Mass at
midnight was added. During this time, we also read the following words of Theophilus (A.D. 115-181), Catholic bishop of Caesarea in Palestine: “We ought to celebrate the birthday of Our
Lord on what day soever the 25th of December shall happen.”[vi]
Shortly thereafter in the second century, Saint Hippolytus (A.D. 170-240) wrote in passing that the birth of Christ occurred
on December 25:
"The First Advent of our Lord in the flesh occurred when He was born in Bethlehem, was December 25th, a Wednesday, while Augustus was in his forty-second year, which is five thousand and five hundred years from Adam. He suffered in the thirty-third year, March 25th, Friday, the eighteenth
year of Tiberius Caesar, while Rufus and Roubellion were Consuls.
Also note in the quote above the special significance of March 25, which marks the death of Christ (March 25 was assumed to corresponded to the Hebrew month Nisan 14 – the traditional
date of crucifixion). Christ, as the
perfect man, was believed to have been conceived and died on the same day— March 25. In his Chronicon, Saint Hippolytus states that the earth was created on March 25, 5500 B.C. Thus,
March 25 was identified by the Church Fathers as the Creation date of the universe, as the date of the Annunciation and Incarnation of Christ, and also as the date of the Death of
Christ our Savior.

In the Syrian Church, March 25 or the Feast of the Annunciation was seen as one of the most important feasts of the entire year. It denoted the day that God took up his abode in the womb of the Virgin. In fact, if the Annunciation and Good Friday came into conflict on the calendar, the Annunciation trumped it, so important was the day in Syrian tradition. It goes without saying that the Syrian Church preserved some of the most ancient Christian traditions and had a sweet and profound devotion for the Incarnation of Christ.

Now then, March 25 was enshrined in the early Christian tradition, and from this date it is easy to discern the date of Christ’s birth. March 25 (Christ conceived
by the Holy Ghost) plus nine months brings us to December 25 (the birth of Christ at Bethlehem).
Saint Augustine confirms this tradition of March 25 as the Messianic conception and December 25 as His birth:
"For Christ is believed to have been conceived on the 25th of March, upon which day also he suffered; so the womb of the Virgin, in which he was conceived, where no one of mortals was begotten, corresponds to the new grave in which he was buried, wherein was never man laid, neither before him nor since. But he was born, according to tradition, upon December the 25th."

If the apostles knew the date, it wont logically be Dec 25th, and the speculation that went among early christians after the apostles shows that the apostles never passed on any date for Christ's birth. Of course, the scriptures shows that the death of Jesus is the one to be celebrated, not his birth. His writings is a proof of the fact that they didn't disturb there head over such celebrations.

Pope Telesphorus never said such things. The statement is falsely ascribed to him. Of course nothing like xmas celebration can be deduce from the writing.

Those you quoted about Theophilus is spurious.

The writing attributed to Hippolytus concerning Dec 25 in the West is still doubtful. It could be an interpolation.

Even if it were true, it is a fact that during that time there were speculations as to the date of Christ’s birth. There were no general consensus about the date, nor were there wide celebration on that date for Christ’s birth. Clement of Alexandra for one scoffed at those who embarked on this speculation/calculations. According to him, some calculations fell in 18 or 19 April, some 29th May. He himself seem to favor Nov 17. As such, this is not a point.

And how did he arrive at the March 25 and that Adam was created 5500 years before there time? It’s that calculation scriptural? If we are to use the popular James Ussher’s dating, his conclusion is false. For what reason did he come to the conclusion that Jesus died in March 25? Simple, It is tradition, not scriptural.

First, Nisan 14 corresponds to April 1, not March 25.

You posit that Jesus was born Dec 25 1 AD, and he died 25th March 33 AD. Now, Jesus life and ministry lasted for 33 ½ years. Minus this from your calculation and see how faulty it is.

Again, even if people were going around with that Dec 25 speculation, or making something out of it, it is still fact that the customs or the festivities associated with Christmas shows that it stems from that pagan festival.

Christianity were not known to be celebrating Christ’s death on Dec 25 [Even if some postulate that he was born on Dec 25, no record of a wide Christmas celebration by Christians in Rome]. Roman was a nation steeped in paganism, even Constantine was still pagan while claiming conversion to Christianity. However, in his rulership he made “Christianity” the State religion. But there was a problem. Roman citizens are largely involved with idolatry and the jollification which comes on the month of December. The peak being on 25th.

How could you attract this people to Christianity? Efforts were made to twist the scriptures and find a similarity between Mithranism and Christianity, and instituting Dec 25th as a date to celebrate the son of righteousness, Jesus. The features of Christmas as we know it today stems from that pagan festival. So yes, the Christmas as we know it today stems from paganism, not Christianity. The feature of what Hippolytus probably calculated is not the feature of Xmas which started in the 4th Century. The latter is a new thing.

That this celebration did begin in Constantine’s Rome, and not in one of the other seats of the early church, such as Antioch, Jerusalem or Alexandria, is shown by a fourth-century writer. The abbot Duchesne explains: “The celebration of Christmas was at first a celebration characteristic of the Latin Church. Saint John Chrysostom testifies in a homily pronounced in 386 that it had been introduced at Antioch only about ten years earlier, or about 375. At the time he spoke the celebration was not yet observed at Jerusalem, neither at Alexandria. In this latter metropolis, it was adopted about 430.”

What about the “merry customs” of Christmas, such as the brightly lit and gayly decorated tree, holly, mistletoe, the yule log and the practice of exchanging gifts? Are these Christian customs?

Professor Edvard Lehmann writes in Hastings’ Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics: “Most of the Christmas customs now prevailing in Europe, or recorded from former times, are not genuine Christian customs, but heathen customs which have been absorbed or tolerated by the Church. . . . The Christmas feast has inherited these customs chiefly from two sources—from Roman and from Teutonic paganism.” Some customs even come from ancient Babylon.

“Most of the customs now associated with Christmas were not originally Christmas customs but rather were pre-Christian and non-Christian customs taken up by the Christian church. Saturnalia, a Roman feast celebrated in mid-December, provided the model for many of the merrymaking customs of Christmas. From this celebration, for example, were derived the elaborate feasting, the giving of gifts, and the burning of candles.”—The Encyclopedia Americana, 1959 edition, Vol. 6, p. 622.

“The custom of decorating homes and churches with evergreens began in ancient times. The Romans exchanged green tree branches for good luck on the calends (first day) of January.” (The World Book Encyclopedia, 1973, Vol. 3, p. 415) Regarding the carol entitled “Holly and the Ivy,” Funk & Wagnalls Standard Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology, and Legend says: “It is one of a number of carols in which the holly and ivy carry over a pre-Christian symbolism of male and female principles.”

No wonder theologian Tertullian complained: “By us, who are strangers to Sabbaths, and new moons and festivals, once acceptable to God, the Saturnalia [and other pagan feasts] are now frequented, gifts are carried to and fro, . . . and sports and banquets are celebrated with uproar.”

Pope Gregory I continued this defiling trend. According to Natural History magazine, “instead of trying to obliterate peoples’ customs and beliefs, the pope’s instructions were, use them. If a group of people worship a tree, rather than cut it down, consecrate it to Christ and allow them to continue their worship.”

Ubenedictus:
actually, the "catholic encyclopedia" is not a church document of the catholic church, it thus has no authority, i know you are trying to use the logical fallacy called appeal to authority.

If you want a catholic church publication get ccc.

The Catholic Encyclopedia: An International Work of Reference on the Constitution, Doctrine, Discipline, and History of the Catholic Church,[1] also referred to as the Old Catholic Encyclopedia and the Original Catholic Encyclopedia,[2] is an English-language encyclopedia published in the United States. The first volume appeared in March 1907 and the last three volumes appeared in 1912, followed by a master index volume in 1914 and later supplementary volumes. It was designed "to give its readers full and [size=15]authoritative[/size] information on the entire cycle of Catholic interests, action and doctrine"

Its preface claims the above, yet Catholic refuse to sue its writers to court? Nawa to you o. Is it because of this issue of Xmas you copied from who knows where, that made you to renounce your encyclopedia?

Ubenedictus:


horus, was the date of Christ birth set on the 25th of december in the 15th century by a pope who later became an emperor?

Yes or no will do.

Horus is part of the Egyptian triad. He is the son of Isis[mother] and Osiris[father]. Of course Rome finally adopted this worship too. It was from there that your trinity doctrine came from. It is not a date.

Horus:


And did your bible talk about snow when he was born?

Give us the name of the chapter

Below is the first picture that you posted

Now right click with your mouse on your own picture and when the white window open just left click with your mouse on search Google for this image. Now you have as a result the original image of Shepherds in Iran

Shepherds moving their sheeps, between Khoy and Pasak-e Sofla, north-western Iran (picture Date january 2008 )

Source: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Shepherds_iran.jpg

www.nairaland.com/attachments/1985602_shepherdsiran_jpeg13c7a83102f80e39ccac60140e840ab9

So shepherds can move their sheep in winter in Iran but not in Israel?

Horus:


I dont know if he later became an emperor but the question that you should ask yourself is: Why a date of birth need to be set by a mortal ?. Also, the 25th of december is nowhere to be found in your Bible.

1. Which mortal set it? Pope Clement VII in the 15th century?

2. We dont believe it has to be in the Bible.

JMAN05:


The Catholic Encyclopedia: An International Work of Reference on the Constitution, Doctrine, Discipline, and History of the Catholic Church,[1] also referred to as the Old Catholic Encyclopedia and the Original Catholic Encyclopedia,[2] is an English-language encyclopedia published in the United States. The first volume appeared in March 1907 and the last three volumes appeared in 1912, followed by a master index volume in 1914 and later supplementary volumes. It was designed "to give its readers full and [size=15]authoritative[/size] information on the entire cycle of Catholic interests, action and doctrine"

Its preface claims the above, yet Catholic refuse to sue its writers to court? Nawa to you o. Is it because of this issue of Xmas you copied from who knows where, that made you to renounce your encyclopedia?

The Catholic Encyclopedia is not a publication of the Catholic Church...no matter how hard you try to make it so.

So grow up.

italo:


The Catholic Encyclopedia is not a publication of the Catholic Church...no matter how hard you try to make it so.

So grow up.

Selective reply

7. I dnt follow the Dec 25th analogy cus, Nissan 14 , a date mentioned in the bible , do change every year in our modern calender, how come Dec 25th is constant?

Moreover, if jesus mother, jesus and his disciples where to celebrate jesus birthday , which date on the hebrew calender does it fall upon since you have the oral traditional in which the date was mentioned with you.

8. If jesus where to be celebrating his birth now, which calender would he use, the calender of his own people or the one of the people that oppress them ?


I wish we dnt defend the indefensible cus of personal interests

italo:


So shepherds can move their sheep in winter in Iran but not in Israel?

The point is: Where is the word winter mentioned in your bible at the time of birth

Show us any sentence with: shepherds in winter mentioned in your bible at the time of birth

A picture with snow cannot be used as evidence if snow or cold are not even mentioned in your bible at the time of birth

As long as you cannot provide evidences of the presence of snow, winter or cold in your bible at the time of birth, then your claim is just that, a claim based entirely on blind beliefs, not a fact. You just assert something, without providing evidence or proof from your bible

italo:


1. Which mortal set it? Pope Clement VII in the 15th century?

2. We dont believe it has to be in the Bible.

Just agree that you just confessed that the date of 25th of december is nowhere to be found in your Bible.

So what are you celebrating on that date? Santa Claus?

Horus:


Just agree that you just confessed that the date of 25th of december is nowhere to be found in your Bible.

So what are you celebrating on that date? Santa Claus?

The Christian faith is not dependent on the Bible. It existed before the Bible.

We celebrated Christ's birth on 25th of December.

Now can you tell us the mortal that established the date 25th December?

You still maintain it was Pope Clement VII in the 15th century?

Horus:


The point is: Where is the word winter mentioned in your bible at the time of birth

Show us any sentence with: shepherds in winter mentioned in your bible at the time of birth

A picture with snow cannot be used as evidence if snow or cold are not even mentioned in your bible at the time of birth

As long as you cannot provide evidences of the presence of snow, winter or cold in your bible at the time of birth, then your claim is just that, a claim based entirely on blind beliefs, not a fact. You just assert something, without providing evidence or proof from your bible

I am not making any claim. I am only debunking your claim below:

Jesus Was Born In The Summer

Sadly, most modern day Christians think that Jesus was born on December 25, a date established by Pope Clement VII (1478-1534 A.D.), a Roman Emperor. He became Pope in November of 1523-1534. With that, it became believable that Jesus was born on December 25, a winter month. But the mere fact that the shepherds were outdoors in the fields tending their flocks, which they only did in the summer months, Jesus son of Mary was in fact, based on the scriptures of Luke 2:8 born in the summer. In Jerusalem during the month of December, it is very cold, and there is no way this child could be born in the cold.

The pictures are proof that shepherds dont only tend their sheep in summer as you said.

They also do that in winter. So the story in Luke could have happened in winter.

italo:


So shepherds can move their sheep in winter in Iran but not in Israel?

Yet to see a picture of Shepherd tending to their sheep DURING NIGHT HOURS (because I am aware of the huge temperature drop during the night hours).

Is there any evidence that sheep are being tended in modern Isreal this very period and day?

Could Sheep "FEED OUT IN THE FIELD" during Winter ? Where is the grass for grazing from ? Why use the word "Field" in winter time?

About this topic?

Churches existed during the time of the Apostles- The first century yet it took century later for this date in question to emerge.

Why did Early christians not celebrate this date/birthday ?

Why should christians celebrate it now ? What changed with time as regard Christian belief ?

dolphinheart:


Ok o, I don here, like I said before, I dnt use the issue of shepherds being out in the field as a bases for not believing in the Dec 25th date.

My basis for not believing in Dec 25th are as follows .

1. The bible never mentioned such a date in relation to jesus birth.

2. Choosing that date is extremely controversial .

3. The reason for jesus parents travelling from Nazareth to Bethlehem (very long distance)was for the census. I dnt think its likely for ceaser to command the isrealites to move around during the winter period, not to talk of during the middle of winter.

4. Jesus lived 33 years and half years, if he died on Nissan 14 , easter period which is always around match/April , Then his birth date would not have been in Dec, talk less of the end of Dec .

you objection no 1 is spurious, it is a logical fallacy called arguement from silience, you simply can't simply dismiss other sources becos you say it isn't recorded in the bible, infact the bible never claimed to contain everything about the life of Christ.

Your no 2 is simply incredible, totally lacking in any sort of convincing power, so 25th is simply wrong because it is "controversial". Sorry dear, tell me another story, which day is not controvesial, all d days in the calender were named in remembrance of one pagan gods all d other, are we simply going to say Jesus was never born because all dates are controversial?

Your no 3 is also interesting because, the summer is not good for travels because isreal is a dry place with much dust, the spring is not good either because that is when farmers plant their fields, you can't tell people to leave their source of sustenance and go for census, again the fall is not suitable because that is the time for harvest, nobody will leave their fields at harvest. That brings us back to winter when there isn't much agriculture and the weather isn't too harsh.


Lastly i'll like you to provide the bible verse that says Jesus lived exactly 33yrs 6month, if u can't then your no 4 is non sequiter.

dolphinheart:


Ok o, I don here, like I said before, I dnt use the issue of shepherds being out in the field as a bases for not believing in the Dec 25th date.

My basis for not believing in Dec 25th are as follows .

5. The book u quoted from brings some questions forward .
A. What month is the Passover?.
B. Was jesus born 30 days to the Passover cus the shepherds would be in the field during that period?

All my points can be verified using the bible

the book i quoted actually says that sherpherds keep watch on sheeps in bethlehem throughout the year, he called them the migdal eder "the tower of flocks" not just before the passover.

Horus:


I dont know if he later became an emperor but the question that you should ask yourself is: Why a date of birth need to be set by a mortal ?. Also, the 25th of december is nowhere to be found in your Bible.

i hope you remember that you are the one making the claim that the date was set by a mortal in the 15th century contrary to all commonsense and fact, i also rejected that silly claim, so befor you ask the question above you have to begin by showing us how the 25th of december was set by a mortal.

Horus:


I am aware that the 25th of december is nowhere to be found in your Bible

I am aware that the word Chistmas is NOT MENTIONED anywhere in your Bible

So what are you celebrating on that date?, Santa Claus?

And where did your bible talk about snow when he was born?

Give us the name of the chapter where the snow is mentioned at the time of birth

Post also the name of the chapter where the word winter is mentioned

does the bible claim to give all information about Jesus? No! It doesn't so your questions above is non sequter

JMAN05:
It commenced from 17 and ends on 24. Why?

it ended on the 23, from wikipedia

Saturnalia was an ancient Roman festival in honor of the deity Saturn, held on the 17th of December of the Julian calendar and later expanded with festivities through to the 23rd of December. The holiday was celebrated with a sacrifice at the Temple of Saturn, in the Roman Forum, and a public banquet, followed by private gift-giving, continual partying, and a carnival atmosphere that overturned Roman social norms: gambling was permitted, and masters provided table service for their slaves.[1] The poet Catullus called it "the best of days."

The Story of Christmas answers:

“there was a day set aside for special reverence to the sun whose apparent rebirth on the Winter Solstice had originally provided the excuse for all these widespread pagan jollifications. This day was known as Dies Solis Invicti Nati, the Day of the Birth of the Unconquered Sun, and it fell on what corresponds to 25 December in our calendar.”



To show that that day was replaced, we read:

the Vatican newspaper L’Osservatore Romano made some interesting observations.

Regarding the date when Christmas is celebrated, the Catholic newspaper said: “The real date of Jesus’ birth, from the historical viewpoint, lies concealed beneath a veil of uncertainty as regards Roman history, the imperial census of that time and research in the subsequent centuries. . . . The date of 25 December, as is well known, was chosen by the Church of Rome in the fourth century. This date in pagan Rome was dedicated to the Sun god . . . Although Christianity had already been affirmed in Rome by an Edict of Constantine, the myth of . . . the Sun god was still widespread, especially among soldiers. The above-mentioned festivities, centred on 25 December, were deeply rooted in popular tradition. This gave the Church of Rome the idea of impressing a Christian religious significance on the day by replacing the Sun god with the true Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ, choosing it as the day on which to celebrate his birth.”

i find it funny that the two sources you quote to confirm the popular tale do not quote any historic source, not a single church father or secular historian who claims that the Christian replaced the pagan festival, all you have above is a constant repetition of popular myth deviod of historic sources and historical proof.

Probably by opening a thread on NL, maybe typing in CAPS and being very persistent, the true facts of the birth of Jesus (pbuh) can be altered to match the OP's opinion.

Just maybe...

JMAN05:



It is true that Julian became an apostate and made an effort to stamp out Christianity, but there is no historical prove that he established ceremony that was done on December 25th. And from that Catholic Newspaper the festivities were already popular in Rome. The sun god was popular, not only the Saturn god.

I wouldn’t say Aurelian introduced sun-god worship in 274. It seems that he made it a notable god of the empire. He proclaimed it the principal patron of the empire on Dec 25 and also built a temple for it. ISBE reports that the worship of Mithra had been among Roman soldiers as far back as the 2nd Century AD and it was popular amongst them. Dec 25 has always been its birthday. It could be that its popularity gained momentum from the time of Aurelian onwards.

are u aware that eleagbarus invented the so-called roman sun god? Are you aware that aurelian was the person to first built a temple to this god and yes it was dedicated on d 25 of december?

Are you also aware that the said festival of sol only started to be celebrated during the reign of julian the apostate?