sinequanon:


All that means is that you personally reject the evidence, not that there is no evidence. A religious person will tell you that they have prayed and felt their god. That, for them is evidence. You are told that the light in your room comes on because electrons are flowing down a wire. That, for you is evidence, although you have never seen an "electron".

Well well electron is there for everyone to analyse, that's science. Feelings from God is personal, so do no hold more credit. The fact is your actually believing those who tell you they have felt God somehow and not God himself

What science have you questioned? How have you questioned it? Let us be honest, most of it you repeat without any first hand experience, so you are relying on faith.

As long as a thing is scientific it's a fact, whether you question it or not. When explained there'd be no room for question as you'd see it yourself. Lastly,anything relying on faith is not scientific

Another uncritical repetition. Snowflakes are not very mathematically precise. They show approximate symmetry, and for very simple reasons.

This is obvious already, except of course to those with "minds that are yet to see".

In the absence of a plausible explanation, people would rather believe what they can, and cling on to it, hoping for the best.

Pr0ton:


Well well electron is there for everyone to analyse, that's science. Feelings from God is personal, so do no hold more credit. The fact is your actually believing those who tell you they have felt God somehow and not God himself

They are both personal. How do you know the electron is there without personal observation? It's called faith.

I believe that people do feel and communicate on the spiritual level, i.e with spirit. That also comes from personal experience. Difference is, that I am not so overawed by the "spiritual" that I start worshiping it like people did when they were overawed by mountains or thunder and lightning.

Pr0ton:
As long as a thing is scientific it's a fact, whether you question it or not. When explained there'd be no room for question as you'd see it yourself. Lastly,anything relying on faith is not scientific

That is just your faith talking. What you are repeating is your faith in science, just as a religious person will tell you that once you pray with all your heart, you will find "god".

sinequanon:


All that means is that you personally reject the evidence, not that there is no evidence. A religious person will tell you that they have prayed and felt their god. That, for them is evidence. You are told that the light in your room comes on because electrons are flowing down a wire. That, for you is evidence, although you have never seen an "electron".

What science have you questioned? How have you questioned it? Let us be honest, most of it you repeat without any first hand experience, so you are relying on faith.

Again, perhaps you don't know the meaning of evidence.
Claiming something is not evidence for the what is being claimed.

Let me repeat again for those who have ears( or brains), faith and conviction are not the same.

We can all argue about our convictions by throwing facts, evidence, statistics, etc at each other to back up our convictions.

You cannot argue faith, because s person chooses or makes up what or where to put his faith.

Most Christians that come here to make arguments and debates based on their personal faiths are dumb ignorant folks, too dumb to even define and understand what their faith is grounded upon.

An advertised public faith is the dummies faith, the zombie faith.

People who understand religion, their religion, do not argue their faith.

plaetton, every time you try to explain the difference between scientific evidence and faith, you end up throwing your toys out of your pram. So I have learned not to bother with you.

Rather than your regular tactic of ranting, using cartoons and asking rhetorical questions the minute you are faced with any detail. You should go and educate yourself so that you know how to put together your thought processes.

That means explaining why your belief in electrons is not faith, but someone else's belief in god is faith. General ranting about how much you dislike religion (and by extension, yourself) is not an explanation.

Pr0ton:



And if faith ceases to exist then God ceases to exist.

I Disagree sir...if you dnt av faith that something exists,that doesnt make the thing non-existent,e.g If i dont av faith dat other planets exist,dat doesnt mean that they dnt,some things exist independent of the mind!...So,thru faith,i believe that God exists,if all in d world are atheists,dnt doesnt change anything!

BTW,Nice point u made up there,kudos

sinequanon:


They are both personal. How do you know the electron is there without personal observation? It's called faith.

What's personal observation doing here? Maybe you didn't get the personal feeling I was talking about. This's a kind of feeling that is unknown to the outsider and which can be explained by the person having this feeling. Every one can observe the electron by its energy. Everyone will come up with the same theory, agreement and observation, unlike feelings that result into different kind of conflicting beliefs.

I believe that people do feel and communicate on the spiritual level, i.e with spirit. That also comes from personal experience. Difference is, that I am not so overawed by the "spiritual" that I start worshiping it like people did when they were overawed by mountains or thunder and lightning.

And if this belief is coming from the same source and it's[the source] consistent why should the outcome be different

That is just your faith talking. What you are repeating is your faith in science, just as a religious person will tell you that once you pray with all your heart, you will find "god".

You don't get my clear statement? anything relying on faith is not scientific.

herald9:



Unarguably true.
But do you also doubt the existence of a Creator?
That's the reason I can't still come in terms with atheist.
As a deist,I don't believe in the gods invented by man...But I believe in a Creator who doesn't interfere in the activities of it's creation.

One question I can't always answer is why someone will build a house and abandon it. Why Did he build it in the first place when he had no intention of using it...

If this question is coming frm a deist then I wonder y u stil hold on to ur deistic belief!

sinequanon:
plaetton, every time you try to explain the difference between scientific evidence and faith, you end up throwing your toys out of your pram. So I have learned not to bother with you.

Rather than your regular tactic of ranting, using cartoons and asking rhetorical questions the minute you are faced with any detail. You should go and educate yourself so that you know how to put together your thought processes.

That means explaining why your belief in electrons is not faith, but someone else's belief in god is faith. General ranting about how much you dislike religion (and by extension, yourself) is not an explanation.

My posts are clear enough in getting across my points. I have no need to be boxed into your preferred nomenclatures to be understood.

You exhibit the classic symptoms of lazy African intellectuals or wannabes. You get stuck in meaningless verbal gymnastics, skirting around in the periphery of real issues, dodging afraid to stick your neck out.
That's why you proudly announce yourself a non godbeliever, but not an atheist. Only you are fit define and make the distinction between a person who believes in no god, and a person who calls himself an atheist.

Your exuberant irrationality is has gotten the best you and whatever you had to offer this section.

Toyolad:
I Disagree sir...if you dnt av faith that something exists,that doesnt make the thing non-existent,e.g If i dont av faith dat other planets exist,dat doesnt mean that they dnt,some things exist independent of the mind!...So,thru faith,i believe that God exists,if all in d world are atheists,dnt doesnt change anything!

BTW,Nice point u made up there,kudos

You do not require faith to know that other planets exists, you need evidence, and there are tons of evidence. You can get yourself a telescope or better still go to one of the research observatories scattered around the world ( i forgot, we in Africa do not believe in science and research, we are only interested in things of faith and the spirit).

If you want to see an electron, just visit one of the top research institutes and look through an electron microscope. There are tens of experiments to see the effects of electrons. You do not need faith to know what an electron is, what you need is evidence.

Pr0ton:


What's personal observation doing here? Maybe you didn't get the personal feeling I was talking about. This's a kind of feeling that is unknown to the outsider and which can be explained by the person having this feeling.

Finish your point. That is the art of discussion.

Are you trying to say that religious assertions are based on feeling and scientific assertions are based on observation. (I'm guessing, I really don't know what your point is).

If it is the above, then there is no difference apart from the words you are using. You don't see god and you don't see electrons. You see an effect and you interpret it as "god" or "electron".

Pr0ton:
Every one can observe the electron by its energy. Everyone will come up with the same theory, agreement and observation, unlike feelings that result into different kind of conflicting beliefs.

Not at all. Only a tiny handful of people decide theories. The rest go along with it.

What you have is faith that you can observe an electron and that you will accept the theory. (I doubt that you would have come up with the same theory independently. Otherwise history would be flooded with "scientific breakthroughs" as every scientist has same thought processes as Bohr, Plank, Rutherford etc.)

Your claim is no better than a Christian saying that everyone can pray and reach god.

Pr0ton:
And if this belief is coming from the same source and it's[the source] consistent why should the outcome be different

I didn't mention "same source", and I don't share the faith of those who look at it that way.

Pr0ton:
You don't get my clear statement? anything relying on faith is not scientific.

You have stated your opinion.

I am just wondering why you are repeating it instead of explaining it.

If your argument is that it is so because you said so, that is fine. We can close the argument knowing where you are coming from.

wirinet:


You do not require faith to know that other planets exists, you need evidence, and there are tons of evidence. You can get yourself a telescope or better still go to one of the research observatories scattered around the world ( i forgot, we in Africa do not believe in science and research, we are only interested in things of faith and the spirit).

If you want to see an electron, just visit one of the top research institutes and look through an electron microscope. There are tens of experiments to see the effects of electrons. You do not need faith to know what an electron is, what you need is evidence.

Have you done any of this?

You are similar to the person who says, "if you pray with all your heart, you will find god".

plaetton:

My posts are clear enough in getting across my points. I have no need to be boxed into your preferred nomenclatures to be understood.

You exhibit the classic symptoms of lazy African intellectuals or wannabes. You get stuck in meaningless verbal gymnastics, skirting around in the periphery of real issues, dodging afraid to stick your neck out.
That's why you proudly announce yourself a[b] non godbeliever, but not an atheis[/b]t. Only you are fit define and make the distinction between a person who believes in no god, and a person who calls himself an atheist.

Your exuberant irrationality is has gotten the best you and whatever you had to offer this section.

Say it ain't so sinequanon... Say it ain't so...

plaetton:
That's why you proudly announce yourself a non godbeliever, but not an atheist. Only you are fit define and make the distinction between a person who believes in no god, and a person who calls himself an atheist.

This is your problem. When asked to think, you can't because you slop lazily over meanings of words instead of trying to engage your brain. You have spent too long in trivia, cartoons and politics to actually think deeply.

I don't believe in (follow) any god.

I am not an atheist because I do believe that spirits exist that people follow as their gods.

So, you will not find me denying, for example, that religious folks do not have real experiences, while basing my argument on some circular scientific dogma. I don't need to do what you do or rant at people and call them delusional for being religious.

That is why I tell you to go and educate yourself out of your little pigeonholes so that you can actually follow what is being said before throwing your toys out of your pram.

wirinet:


You do not require faith to know that other planets exists, you need evidence, and there are tons of evidence. You can get yourself a telescope or better still go to one of the research observatories scattered around the world ( i forgot, we in Africa do not believe in science and research, we are only interested in things of faith and the spirit).

If you want to see an electron, just visit one of the top research institutes and look through an electron microscope. There are tens of experiments to see the effects of electrons. You do not need faith to know what an electron is, what you need is evidence.

bro,i just used that as an example,bt with all these evidences and proofs,i can still choose to be skeptical abt it as long as i've nt gotten outa planet earth before,i can read another meaning to whatever is seen on the telescope

to those who require the evidence of electron, all you need is to stick a finger in a power socket in your home (the positive terminal) and ensure you are in contact with a point where there is a potential difference with the power source, I'm sure when you do this you'll discard the idea that faith is needed to confirm the veracity of electron.
My point is you do not require faith to confirm science.

Toyolad:
I Disagree sir...if you dnt av faith that something exists,that doesnt make the thing non-existent,e.g If i dont av faith dat other planets exist,dat doesnt mean that they dnt,some things exist independent of the mind!...So,thru faith,i believe that God exists,if all in d world are atheists,dnt doesnt change anything!

BTW,Nice point u made up there,kudos

We are taught to accept God based on faith, and faith eliminates evidence. When were born we lacked faith in God not until when we started growing, beholding the mysteries of the world, and this teaching of faith in God. Now try to instil the state you were when your born to the now that you are, and everyone around you. We would have no idea of God. Now you get what I meant by when faith ceases to exist, God ceases to exist.

Pr0ton:


We are taught to accept God based on faith, and faith eliminates evidence. When were born we lacked faith in God not until when we started growing, beholding the mysteries of the world, and this teaching of faith in God. Now try to instil the state you were when your born to the now that you are, and everyone around you. We would have no idea of God. Now you get what I meant by when faith ceases to exist, God ceases to exist.

ok,now I grab bt u shld av added 'in our minds'...like "God ceases to exist in our minds"

sinequanon:


Have you done any of this?

You are similar to the person who says, "if you pray with all your heart, you will find god".

Yes, i have done some of it. I was a science student in secondary school with good science lab, and we did lots of experiments to prove electrons. Our teachers did not teach us to accept electrons (or any other scientific phenomena ) by faith. If you are ignorant of basics science, that is your handicap, but do not come here spewing rubbish.

About the planets, i have been interested in Astronomy since i was 12, so i know where to look for the planets. Venus and sometimes mercury can be seen with your naked eyes. It is what is often referred as the morning or evening star, Mars and Jupiter can been seen with a low powered Telescope. I had a small telescope when i was young. I followed the Voyager 1 and 2 programed religiously which beamed live pictures from Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune. So do not thing everybody is as ignorant as you.

Only Ignorant people rely on faith for their knowledge.

Next thing you will be telling us that we know of the existence of the moon by faith.

What is with Africans and faith? are we just too lazy to find out how things really works. While the western world are teaching their kids science like evolution and how things works. We on the other hand are filling our children's head with religious mumbo jumbo. Tune into any kids program on Nickelodeon, Jim Jam, Disney Junior, etc, the programs are geared towards teaching the children basic science, meanwhile our own kids are taught Jesus and Mohammed. And we hope to be able to compete in a global world.

Toyolad:
bro,i just used that as an example,bt with all these evidences and proofs,i can still choose to be skeptical abt it as long as i've nt gotten outa planet earth before,i can read another meaning to whatever is seen on the telescope

And what other meaning can you read to seeing a big ball (planet) though a telescope?

darlingbas:
to those who require the evidence of electron, all you need is to stick a finger in a power socket in your home (the positive terminal) and ensure you are in contact with a point where there is a potential difference with the power source, I'm sure when you do this you'll discard the idea that faith is needed to confirm the veracity of electron.
My point is you do not require faith to confirm science.

That is illogical.

How does that prove the existence of electrons? Do you think that would pass as a peer reviewed paper on the existence of electrons?

What if you were told that a pit viper killed by electric shock. Is "let it bite you" proof?

wirinet:


Yes, i have done some of it. I was a science student in secondary school with good science lab, and we did lots of experiments to prove electrons. Our teachers did not teach us to accept electrons (or any other scientific phenomena ) by faith. If you are ignorant of basics science, that is your handicap, but do not come here spewing rubbish.

At secondary school, lol.

I was a researcher here in the UK.

Where did you see your electron? Kindly explain your experiment.

wirinet:
About the planets, i have been interested in Astronomy since i was 12, so i know where to look for the planets. Venus and sometimes mercury can be seen with your naked eyes. It is what is often referred as the morning or evening star, Mars and Jupiter can been seen with a low powered Telescope. I had a small telescope when i was young. I followed the Voyager 1 and 2 programed religiously which beamed live pictures from Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune. So do not thing everybody is as ignorant as you.

Actually, I can tell from your anger and evasion just how wantonly ignorant you are.

I didn't ask you what you imagine you can do. I asked you what you have done.

And I am not talking about beamed pictures. Did you monitor how those pictures were produced? NO. That is not personal observation of the object.

I understand that you have not seen ALL the planets and moons of the solar system (lie if you like), so you take their existence on faith.

wirinet:
Only Ignorant people rely on faith for their knowledge

.

LOL!

wirinet:
Next thing you will be telling us that we know of the existence of the moon by faith.

What is with Africans and faith? are we just too lazy to find out how things really works. While the western world are teaching their kids science like evolution and how things works. We on the other hand are filling our children's head with religious mumbo jumbo. Tune into any kids program on Nickelodeon, Jim Jam, Disney Junior, etc, the programs are geared towards teaching the children basic science, meanwhile our own kids are taught Jesus and Mohammed. And we hope to be able to compete in a global world.

You are worse than most religious folk. You don't even realize that you are using faith. You are brainwashed.

You have less chance of questioning things because of your brainwashing.

sinequanon:


This is your problem. When asked to think, you can't because you slop lazily over meanings of words instead of trying to engage your brain. You have spent too long in trivia, cartoons and politics to actually think deeply.

I don't believe in (follow) any god.

I am not an atheist because I do believe that spirits exist that people follow as their gods.

So, you will not find me denying, for example, that religious folks do not have real experiences, while basing my argument on some circular scientific dogma. I don't need to do what you do or rant at people and call them delusional for being religious.

That is why I tell you to go and educate yourself out of your little pigeonholes so that you can actually follow what is being said before throwing your toys out of your pram.

Funny.
I believe in inter dimensional entities that people may refer to as spirits too.
Does that make me a non atheists?
You are the one obsessed with definitions and sloganeering.
If I begin to hawk and push my dreams , nightmares or other delusions as real and universal, then open myself to mockery and ridicule.
This mockery is much more imperative when one considers the incredible damage, the almost indelible desecration that exuberant religious irrationality leaves on my country.

wirinet:


And what other meaning can you read to seeing a big ball (planet) though a telescope?

Moon, comet, balloon, spot on the lens...

sinequanon:


Finish your point. That is the art of discussion.

Are you trying to say that religious assertions are based on feeling and scientific assertions are based on observation. (I'm guessing, I really don't know what your point is).

Exactly. And have evidence in mind through experimentation.

If it is the above, then there is no difference apart from the words you are using. You don't see god and you don't see electrons. You see an effect and you interpret it as "god" or "electron".

And the effect of God is?

Not at all. Only a tiny handful of people decide theories. The rest go along with it.

What you have is faith that you can observe an electron and that you will accept the theory. (I doubt that you would have come up with the same theory independently. Otherwise history would be flooded with "scientific breakthroughs" as every scientist has same thought processes as Bohr, Plank, Rutherford etc.)

When the experiment performed concurs with the theory then the theory is true. You'll then agree that electron are there.

Let's make it a bit simpler. A theory goes that when acid reacts with base it gives salt and water. A rational mind, again, would reason "is this true?" Science won't tell you to accept it on hearing or just reading (faith) No, for before the theory was even proposed experiment had been undergone to PROVE the theory right. So you just go to the lab and confirm, mix acid and base together, and you get salt and water. Science doesn't stop. It tells you how you get the salt and water eluciadating it in form of equations. Subsequent experiments will still prove the theory right and lead to the same thing. The case with God is different. No proof. He's taken just by faith, and that brings a line between science and belief.

Electrons would not have become a theory without test and experiment to support it.

Your claim is no better than a Christian saying that everyone can pray and reach god.

Why should the opposite be? Everyone can perform neutralization and get the same result. If experiment doesn't support it its theory doesn't hold.

I didn't mention "same source", and I don't share the faith of those who look at it that way.

May I ask what your belief is

You have stated your opinion.

I am just wondering why you are repeating it instead of explaining it.

If your argument is that it is so because you said so, that is fine. We can close the argument knowing where you are coming from.

This doesn't need explanation. It's a fact every normal human accepts, except you wanna say your abnormal... guess I've been wasting my time.

Toyolad:
If this question is coming frm a deist then I wonder y u stil hold on to ur deistic belief!

I don't doubt the existence of an intelligent Creator that's why I'm still holding on to this belief...

Chance sounds silly to me...A car can't just ignite itself and starts moving, someone needs to act on it-Newton's first law said so...

There's some forces that's moving electrons around the atomic cell...telling me to close my eyes an accept that this forces came to be by chance is like telling me to believe the Christian God exists...isn't that faith?

plaetton:

Funny.
I believe in inter dimensional entities that people may refer to as spirits too.
Does that make me a non atheists?

Yet again, where is your logic?

The reason I said I am not an atheist is because I don't mock people and call them delusional etc. for having religious feelings and encounters. I simply interpret them differently.

plaetton:
You are the one obsessed with definitions and sloganeering.

Nope. I am just not lazy. If you call spirits "inter-dimensional", it doesn't matter to the point being made. So I don't question that.

On the other hand, if you talk of "believing in" something, I will distinguish between worshiping the something or merely believing in its existence.

Stop hiding behind sloppy language.

plaetton:
If I begin to hawk and push my dreams , nightmares or other delusions as real and universal, then open myself to mockery and ridicule.
This mockery is much more imperative when one considers the incredible damage, the almost indelible desecration that exuberant religious irrationality leaves on my country.

Fear!

What goes around, comes around.

You cannot push your dreams while engaging in the same mayhem of ridicule that is holding you back.

You see yourself as a realist, hmm? Yet the wisdom of morality eludes you. You think it is hippy stuff. Your environment is ultimately a reflection of what you are.

Pr0ton:
This doesn't need explanation. It's a fact every normal human accepts, except you wanna say your abnormal... guess I've been wasting my time.

Your opinions don't need explanation? ok, LOL.

Let us stop wasting our time.

sinequanon:


At secondary school, lol.

I was a researcher here in the UK.

Where did you see your electron? Kindly explain your experiment.



Actually, I can tell from your anger and evasion just how wantonly ignorant you are.

I didn't ask you what you imagine you can do. I asked you what you have done.

And I am not talking about beamed pictures. Did you monitor how those pictures were produced? NO. That is not personal observation of the object.

I understand that you have not seen ALL the planets and moons of the solar system (lie if you like), so you take their existence on faith.

.

LOL!



You are worse than most religious folk. You don't even realize that you are using faith. You are brainwashed.

You have less chance of questioning things because of your brainwashing.

I said secondary because the school gave me a solid science foundation, so much so that even though i went on to read Architecture, my passion for the sciences was never diminished. Please forget paper qualifications, there are tons of Mscs and Phds in the sciences in Nigeria who lack understanding of basic science principles.

What kind of researcher are you? It cannot be in the Natural and applied sciences, because there is no way a real scientist in the 21st century would be saying he believes in electrons because of faith.

People like you aka people of faith are very difficult to argue with. If you are given an electron to hold in your hand. you will still deny it is an electron. For example someone shows you see a flat disc in a telescope that has the distinguishing features of say mars and you are able to follow its projected orbit for a few days, you will still say "no that is not a planet" it can be a comet , it can be a balloon, or even a blot on the telescope, but it cannot be a planet. Now, how can one debate with such a person.

I never said i have seen all the planets and moons in our solar system. I have only seen some, but there are actual photos of others by probes that have visited those planets and moons. But of course you will argue that the photos and even videos are fake to support your science if faith theory.

So you want me to monitor how ALL PHOTOS are produced before i accept them as authentic? In that case no evidence would be accepted in court except the judge himself is a witness to the crime. Are you implying fake pictures and videos cannot cannot be identified. Are you also implying that NASA would spend billions of dollars sending probes to space only to produce fake pictures and videos.

Well i am done arguing. If you believe science is faith, then that is your problem.

sinequanon:


Yet again, where is your logic?

The reason I said I am not an atheist is because I don't mock people and call them delusional etc. for having religious feelings and encounters. I simply interpret them differently.
Nope. I am just not lazy. If you call spirits "inter-dimensional", it doesn't matter to the point being made. So I don't question that.


On the other hand, if you talk of "believing in" something, I will distinguish between worshiping the something or merely believing in its existence.

Stop hiding behind sloppy language.



Fear!

What goes around, comes around.

You cannot push your dreams while engaging in the same mayhem of ridicule that is holding you back.

You see yourself as a realist, hmm? Yet the wisdom of morality eludes you. You think it is hippy stuff. Your environment is ultimately a reflection of what you are.

Correction.
I don't mock people for whatever they believe.
I mock people who push public agendas based on their religious beliefs.
In other words, if a religious person comes on this public forum to push a worldview based on his / her religious faith, I have the right, and even duty to challenge, repudiate or even mock that view if I think it goes against the common grain of reason and rationality.

herald9:



I don't doubt the existence of an intelligent Creator that's why I'm still holding on to this belief...

Chance sounds silly to me...A car can't just ignite itself and starts moving, someone needs to act on it-Newton's first law said so...

There's some forces that's moving electrons around the atomic cell...telling me to close my eyes an accept that this forces came to be by chance is like telling me to believe the Christian God exists...isn't that faith?

I mean,If u believe that there 'was' an intelligent creator then it's logical to reason that He didnt create all these just for him to leave them to operate by their own laws,He probably had a reason for embarking on the d task of creation..then,do u think,he created d universe nd went to sleep without having any influence in its operations?