You ZABUDAYA has comited hate crime AGAINST HND HOLDERS,
Hate crimes, is a violent act against people or organization because of the group to which they belong or identify with these were tragic part of our history. The statistical history on hate crimes is meager. Nevertheless, Scientific research is beginning to yield some good perspectives on the general nature of crimes committed because of real or perceived differences in race, religion ethnicity or national origin, qualification, orientation disability or gender.

The offenses of hate range from simple assault (i.e. no weapon is involved) to aggravated assault. This kind of attack takes place on two levels, not only is it an attack on one's physical self, but it is an attack on one's very identity in this case HND certificate.

Most hate crimes are carried out by otherwise law-abiding people who see little wrong in their actions, the determinant appears to be personal prejudice, a situation that colours peoples judgment, blinding the aggressors to the immorality of what they are doing. Such prejudice is most disdains someone who is "different" or sees that difference as threatening.

One _expression of this prejudice is the perception that society sanctions attacks on certain groups.

Researchers have concluded that hate crimes are not necessarily random, uncontrollable inevitable occurrences. There is overwhelming evidence that society can intervene to reduce or prevent many forms of the hate that threatens and intimidates entire categories of (HND) people.

In the public service despite all efforts to ensure pay parity and equal recognition to HND and BSC graduates, the situation still remains the same. For instance HND holders are employed on GL 07 (except HND in Engineering with the entry point of 08) the limit to an HND accountancy holder in the bursary or accounts department of an organization is level 13. Whereas a University degree can rise far above that, this is another hate crime the Grade Level bar placed on the HND holders who are Civil Servants is undergoing attention. [b]Gasper (2000) stated that the division of labour at engineering cadre is not to make one cadre superior to the other, hate crime must stop, and grade level bars must be removed.[/b]For HND holders, discrimination in labour market continues and this can not be justified. It is bad, many holders of HND today took Joint Admissions and Matriculations Board (JAMB) exams. Some in fact have eight credits at a single sitting but resorted to the Polytechnic for practical reasons, besides each HND programme is a five years programme at the polytechnic against the 4 years of the University which is now preferred and promoted above level 14 bar placed on the HND.

Simple solution is for all those with HND to go into unionism or call for polytechnic cancellation . They should come together and cry out so that the government and everyone support them like the way Nigerian Association of Technological Engineers (NATE) are currently going about it, NATE is the only HND holders organized society for now, and the experience so far show the hate crimes from the B.Sc. Engineers. It is real and this must stop.

The body registered as NATE was formed in 1976 by a group of HND (Engineering) graduate who considered themselves marginalized by the Nigerian Society of Engineers (NSE) a group of University trained Engineering Scientist. The HND engineering graduates were refused recognition and registration as professional and often lumped in the technical cadre with those of lower qualification.

On establishment, the body sought to be registered as the Nigerian Institute of Technological Engineers (NITE). Council of Registered Engineers of Nigeria opposed this. (COREN) for using the word INSTITUTE and ENGINEER the hate crime there is that the word "institute" would imply that it could set examinations to determine standards and the members were not recognized as Engineers. COREN finaly allowed the body to have its way , named and registered as Nigerian Association of Technological Engineers (NATE) in 1988, twelve full years after its establishment. NSE quickly established defense, as they want to succeed in retaining their position as the only umbrella organization for the whole range and cadres within the engineering family. The problem was how to be flexible enough to respond to needs of all within the engineering family without compromising the professional needs.

The challenge came first from graduates of British institutions whose qualification were discriminated against by NSE. In Britain this created no problems but here in Nigeria a developing country, it was a problem (hate crimes) since the NSE is anxious to be an umbrella organization.

This was what lead Geo-technical and Mining to have their own council called COMEG as rivals of COREN.

The problem of NSE became acute in 1976 when holders of HND float a body of Technological Engineers. Eng. Teju Oyeleye, then NSE president show the hatred by objecting to registration of anyone as an Engineer who did not have a University Degree. Eng. Faluyi did warn them against these hate crimes and advised caution in tackling the delicate issues involved, urging a committee to see how FTC holders and HND holders could join them as a full member of the NSE. This lead to the NSE graduate examination, which turned out to be "Money Making Venture" of NSE. Even then the first examination held by NSE was drawn for 20 candidates but only two showed up and only one wrote the paper. The other spent time to explain the Hate-Crimes as a pretest to why he should not write the examination. In 1985 the NSE introduced a local ladder an equivalent of CE I part II examination through the approval by council, the first exam proper was held in 1988 and by the end of 1990, 693 HND holders and FTC holders had taken the exam and for years only 124 had passed the examination and wait again for 2 years before been registered by COREN.

NATE challenge the right of NSE to conduct such exams in court but due to superior financial ability of NSE, the court was well attended by brilliant lawyers and the situation favor NSE as reported by Prof. Ade Ajayi's History of NSE and among the past debts inherited by Eng. Inuwa may also be reckoned as the sore problem caused by NATE who had taken the NSE to court over the graduateship examination for HND holders.

The "hate" became critical when Eng. Inuwa became president of COREN and again used his influence with the Government, he was able to complete the process of amending Decree 55 of 1970. Thus Degree 27 of 1992 finally rename Technological Engineers as Engineering Technologist. Before this new decree NATE was involved in the amendment. COREN, agreed to Technological Engineers in fact NATE suggested COREN'S new name "Council for Regulation of Engineering in Nigeria (COREN) as a way to meet the desire of the HND holders. Several other issues were yet unresolved before some people with vested interest in COREN rushed into the amendment of the decree.

This end a rival organization was floated by COREN and financed by NSE named Nigerian Institute of Engineering Technologist (NIET) whose registration was rejected by corporate affairs commission (CAC) this was to put to rest the agitation of NATE.

NATE as an association has tried very much in championing the right cause of HND holders right from inception, NATE has always opposed the designation as engineering Technologist but for separation of Identity Technological Engineers was used. Re-designating courses run in the Polytechnic as Technology was a plan to prevent competition and it was so easy to libeled the HND Engineers as Technologist. In Canada Technologist is 3 years course and not in anyway trained as Nigerian HND.

Today we are witnessing Engineering and Engineers in Nigeria. COREN was swallowed by NSE even recently in the Trenched hall University of Ibadan at the 7th Arokodare Memorial lecture, Eng. Fadupin did not hide his feeling of hate when he openly called on the NSE to do more hates by opposing COREN registration through mature program. Since nurses, Pharmacists and lawyers do not have mature route, so I give him a support here so let every body go on a level playing ground so NSE will loose the leadership like the doctors. Today the Nurses and other paramedical stayed on their own. HND engineering can go to places and have their own council.

In 1998 an amicable resolution to this "hate crimes" was reached a mature route for was open for HND graduate, COREN counter proposal limit the mature route to 1982. NSE put a stop to this mature route in 1999 then NATE have to sacrifice by agreeing to change name for this, the mature route became open till December 2002 for graduate who are 45 years of age and obtained HND 1982. NATE was recognized

Consequently, NATE agreed to change name to Technologist-in-Engineering. COREN which has been sponsoring a rival group NIET for registration is in a delimma to withdraw that sponsorship or not, and the mature route was announced on November 16th at Owerri by COREN'S president Engr. Osoba. The important of this route is that in due course all those who graduate up to 1982 with HND would be Engineers leaving the Technologist, logically old name of NATE will become truly obsolete. Recalled for Zebudayaaaaaaa

Zebudaya, i should be asking you that question whether you people in the universities know what Excel, minitab and spss is?? It is well known that polytechnics run computer science and statistics programs with computer practicals. Infact most guys dat read statistics in the universities did not use computers to run the course, simply because they dont have computers. Guys with Bsc in computer science, mathematics and statistics have confirmed that to me already. But in the polytechnic NBTE will not accredit statistics and computer science at ND and HND levels if any polytechnic does not have a standard computer lab. My guy i don't only know how to use excel, minitab and spss to carryout statistical analysis, but i can as well write custom algorithms and programs to perform complex statistical analysis. I am a statistical programmer for your information, and i got such skills from the polytechnic i attended in nigeria. You hear?? The relevant and important courses i did in the polytechnic, Bsc ststistics graduates did not do some of them. You can ask any of them; i have seen the course work for Bsc statistics in O.A.U. Ife and UI, they cannot withstand those of us that have HND in statistics. Let any Bsc Statistics graduate from any Nigerian university come out and defend Bsc statistics graduates, i swear i will bring you people out. For your information almost all the stats courses we offered had computer applications.

Ishmael, all those one wey u yearn now na story. If I had a Bsc in Statistics I might not be able to withstand you cos I'm not gud but give me a gud university graduate and he would teach u things u dont know andf u would teach him things he does not know. I strongly believe that the HND cannot be rated as high as the BSc. and that has nothing to do with the course curriculum. It is true that universities are using outdated curriculum and I know of recent Unilag has been working to update the courses.It still does not mean you HND guys are better. I discuss with polytechnics undergraduates and I know they cannot stand the knowledge displayed by some Unilag undergraduates but sure they are better than some unilag undergraduates not all.

You guys are very funny, hnd holder said I am commiting hate crimes against HND holders. _{made me laugh so hard now these people think i'm a nutcase}. I really liked your article learnt a couple of things from it.

ishmael you say you know statistics and you program too- I don't doubt your abilities, maybe you are in the talented 10% I have been mentioning.

Donmayor I think the curriculum used in Engineering at UNILAG is mostly current like i said it compares to that of the west, because the basics of engineering do not change and would always be the same. They haven't changed since the days of Archimedes, Newton, Faraday and Ohms, they might get improved on but basics don't change.

Donmayor, no be story i dey yarn, i mean what i am saying. I have met with graduates of statistics from UI, Ife, Ilorin, Unilag and Benin who were among the best graduates in their schools. One of them had a 1st class and the rest 2.1 and 2.2. Mind you i lived in Lagos and that was where i did my NYSC, so u can imagine the number of statistics/mathematics graduates that would be in lagos camp. I may not have met all sha but i met with a good number of them. You know statisticians are not as many as other professionals like accountants and engineers. Honestly some of them confessed to me that they never used computers in their universities. There is a particular course i took that is very fundamental in statistics; INDUSTRIAL STATISTICS & QUALITY CONTROL, i was surprised to hear from some of them that they did not do it. Yes, i agree with you that some university graduates are superb. That reminds me, when i was in my ND2, i had a corper lecturer from UNIMAID that took me that particular course STAT 217- industrial stats & QC; honestly she confessed to me that though they knew how important and relevant that course was they were not taught. But because she was good she was asked to take the course, and before you knew it she had read and brushed up industrial stats & QC and behold she was already teaching the course properly. I had a good text book on it then, and she decided to borrow the text book which really helped her. I must confess that my proper understanding and knowledge of industrial stats and quality control was as a result of that lady. I did the advance part of the course in my HND2 again and it was a work-over for me because that lady had given me a good foundation already in my ND. So ZEBUDAYA and DONMAYOR, we all need each other as i have said in my earlier posts before. When i was in school some postgraduate students especially MBA and MBF students were coming to meet me to teach them Quantitative Techniques, Quantitative analysis, decision analysis and some operational research techniques. Some of them still hail me till today because of the knowledge i imparted on them. That does not mean that every one with HND in stats would have been able to teach those guys, NO; they new what they wanted and where to get it without much stress that was why they patronized me. Infact some of my classmates would not have solved a simple quadratic or simultaneous equation for you; it may sound funny but that is the truth. Hey, some people in my class then could not write and run very simple QBASIC programs, and they had access to computers. Funny abi?? That means polytecnics and universities only teach us a certain percentage of what we need to know and not everything, while we do extra work on our own to know the remaining things that we were not taught. Obviously i was not taught all i know today in the polytechnic but with my own efforts i learnt so many things that even some of my lecturers taught no student would have known then, and most of them were consulting me too. Men i Love you guys and i really enjoyed every bit of this debate because it was an insult-free debate. I love the maturity we all displayed here. Cheers. Love to read your comments again.

Ishmael and Hnd-holder
sincerely take 2 students equally gifted one learnt under Wole soyinka and Chike Obi to ones that learn Under Mr Dayokanu and Mr Ishmael after 2 years?

dayokanu:

Ishmael and Hnd-holder
sincerely take 2 students equally gifted one learnt under Wole soyinka and Chike Obi to ones that learn Under Mr Dayokanu and Mr Ishmael after 2 years?

Under normal circumstances, the former should gain more than the latter, but in a "Nigerian Scenario" I think the dumber one should be discriminated against and not the "un-privileged" one.

Cos if Wole Soyinka has "dumb and numb skulls" and Ishmael has brains, they can achieve far more than Soyinka's goats if and only if they prove their worth. No matter the discrimination level, they will definitely get there ahead of the former.

All said and done, the argument here is "Getting a job" but I insist, it is the duty of the University guy to "Command" that is prolly why Polys don't offer some "University" courses. At the same time, it is a challenge on the side of the "Poly" guy to prove that given the same circumstances, the sky would be his limit, train him/herself and believe you me, he stands a better chance to make it on his own - that's just it.

Even when they make both the Higher Diploma and Degree equal, my child must have an OND before proceeding to the University. A good example of that is "Olugbenga Anubi", ask anyone presently in Unilag Engineering. With the knowledge carried over from his OND, this guy did not apply for DE, though he had a distinction, he wrote UME, scattered, and was admitted, now, he's arguably Unilag's Best Ever Engr. Student/Graduate. - Check it.

So please leave the government and their HND Certificate, if they do not improve the facilities in both the Uni and the Poly, we'll continue to produce "Sub-Standard" Graduates and only the self-developed would "Get-there"

Yeap.

Dayokanu, i think arguing with people like you can make one to fall ill. You points and examples are so naive and myopic that i am begining to wonder if you, ve ever been to school before. Anyway sha Christino has answered your question.

Christino you don come again, how can someone presently a student be UNILAG's 's Best Ever Engr. Student/Graduate. -

what did he do land UNILAG space shuttle on the moon?

Ishmael now you are talking "you learnt most of what you learnt by yourself and work experience" and had nothing to do with POLY being better than UNiversity. Thats what I have been saying since Kingdom come top 10% top 10%
good to know you know about O.R, statistical quality control, I bet you've done design of Experiments too!

And Christino how old is the Gbenga Anubi guy, I'm asking because when i was at unilag i was 15.5/16 my first year, straight from high school, and all these dudes with two OND's and some with HND's were topping the class, they were as Old as 25/27 and everybody was giving them props why wont you top the class when you have been studying College math for 5-7 years, and you are competing against me who's just coming straight from high school.? yet everyone screams they scattered UME!

Zebudaya I agree o but make i reply small about unilag curriculum. It is similar to what obtains in the West but it is not structured the way it should be and some departments need updates. How can a metallurgical and material engineer spend 5 years and does not have an introduction to nanoscience? Little things like that are being added and it sure counts in the outside world.

[

zebudaya:

Ishmael now you are talking "you learnt most of what you learnt by yourself and work experience" and had nothing to do with POLY being better than UNiversity. Thats what I have been saying since Kingdom come top 10% top 10%
good to know you know about O.R, statistical quality control, I bet you've done design of Experiments too!

this Zebudaya sef, omo u funny no be small. I wonder how you look like, you go be real clown. Yes i did Design of experiments; e be like say you sef na statistician; No, na engineer you be. Engineering students do Design of experiments very well, i'm aware of that. I had friends that did Engineering in the universities, we always talked about that. But pally if man no know book if you like carry am go Harvard university him no go fit change. so i believe being successful has to do with personal efforts and determination. Hope say you no go discriminate any HND holder wey come look for work for your company?? No try am o!! or else my man HND-holder go drag you go world court for committing hate crime against HND holders Cheers my guy!! I'm really enjoying chatting with you guys, i swear.

Zebu,

The last time I checked, 6 months ago, Gbenga was writing his project and now that a session has ended, he musta graduated by now. Maybe you'll hook him up in your alumni meeting someday.

Back then when we left high school in 98, he was as hot as anything, went on to the poly came out and went to Lag to prove himself in both places. He swept almost all the OND Engr. Awards (Laspotech, I guess) then went on to the University to prove it's by brain, not just by institution.

A 25 year old who makes a first class[b] is better than [/b] a 20 year old who makes a third class - Academically.
If the 20 year old goes back to school for another 4 years, there is a 98% chance that he won't make that first class. So what's age really gotta do? I'm yet to see where brilliance has been traced to age. If you were 25 then, would you be scattering half as much? Won't you be thinking of girls money and cars?

If you are coming straight from the high school, how then did you pass the UME? The UME is clearly above high school standards, you must have gone through some advanced courses and if you can pass the UME (without Orijo), then you stand a chance to top the class. The ISI guy who blasted jamb sometime ago clocked about 4.8 GPA in his first season in Unilag - Fresh from high school. Ironically, he was in Gbenga's class that year and he beat him (not hands down though) @ 16/17 you see. So no one's stopping your virgin age should be an advantage to your youthful brain.

Hope I didn't shoot anyone in the mouth? Talk o!

Yeap.

Christino i am not talking about age and Intelligence. I am talking about Experience

25 year old who went to laspotech, got an OND, then went to yabatech and got another OND has at least 5 years of College level classes, then he comes over to UNILAG and takes the same classes over again. You don't need to be Einstein to know that he should definitely top the class he has experience with college level classes. Remember its working smart not working hard!


I'm taking WAEC, GCE, SAT. TOEFL, taking extra lessons, and can't pass JAMB straight from highschool what are you saying do i need two heads to pass?

Zebudaya, you never answer me oo. Hope you say my last post sha?

ishmael:

Zebudaya, you never answer me oo. Hope you say my last post sha?

Oh boy no vex i no see am at first, Yea man i take some statistics classes, and I still get plenty to take one day I go be master statistician. I no de discriminate against HND until una begin de tell me say everything wey i do for uni na asawo work, na den I come out swinging.

So if you do Statistics for undergrad u suppose look at Industrial Engineering overseas, maybe you fit get grad degree for am, na just a bunch of systems engineering classes, statistics, and business classes ( supply chain etc). Just a thought

Oh boy take am easy man it was good talking to you, good say we no throw insults at each other even though we dey opposite sides

cheers

@donmayor met and mat dept need money, nobody dey pump money into am, even the people wey dey study am most of them no de do am on purpose they been want electrical/mechanical or chemical. I feel your point though.

FYI,
Anubi entered LAG @ 21 okay?

Zebudaya, yes o, its either industrial engineering or operational research. What about you? where are you now?

@ishmael I just de push am, I'm getting a degree In Industrial Engineering, after that I unleash myself, and see how man fit make money!.
You're better off with Industrial Engineering then specializing in (O.R or operations management or something else) it sounds better and gives you more opportunities than doing (Business statistics and Operations Management) because in the end you know the same thing as the other guy, but you can add Engineer to your name

@christino Gbenga started school at 21, and you wonder why he is getting A's in freshman level math classes, hope you are not joking? dude has been taking these classes since he was (17-18) compared to 15-16 year olds who are preety much confused by the way classes are run in the universitites and it's their first time doing advanced calculus. Yet everybody gives these old guys too much props. Of course they are going to pass they know the material, and they know how universities/lecturers work

@zebudaya
So where u dey presently? are u in Naija? Me i'm still in Naija working for somebody as an IT man, but i,m planning to leave and stand on my own. Dont u see it as better?

Zebu, please save me that excuse abeg. I've seen 12 year old "geniuses maybe" scatter calculus, and when Gbenga was in poly, about 17, 18, he scattered calculus too and cleared distinctions, if you can't prove yourself there, I wonder when you will. That's that.

It's not about age, i'm sure you know Abiodun Abari, the guy who gained admission into LASU @ 12? This guy ended up with a first class. 4.8 or so! So 15 year olds who don't know calculus should go back to SS2 simple.

you sure say that boy do primary skool so? Doing calculus at age 12 nawa oo; becos even matured people no find calculus easy like dat oo. Well the boy could be a genius!!

Save HND Certificate from Embarrassment today!
Save HND Certificate from Embarrassment today!!
Save HND Certificate from Embarrassment today!!!
Save! save!!
HND Certificate from Embarrassment today!!!!

Christino:

Zebu, please save me that excuse abeg. I've seen 12 year old "geniuses maybe" scatter calculus, and when Gbenga was in poly, about 17, 18, he scattered calculus too and cleared distinctions, if you can't prove yourself there, I wonder when you will. That's that.

It's not about age, i'm sure you know Abiodun Abari, the guy who gained admission into LASU @ 12? This guy ended up with a first class. 4.8 or so! So 15 year olds who don't know calculus should go back to SS2 simple.

You talk about 12 year old geniuses scaterring calculus as if they are not literally one in a million. check out this gorilla (koko) I saw on guiness world records
Koko spends most of her time [/b]writing, drawing, or playing with dolls, and she can even boast about her special skill - when her trainer asked Koko whether she was an animal or a person, Koko replied, [b]"Fine animal gorilla"!
so by your example We should conclude that all gorillas should be able to write, draw and paint right?

The point is that Engineering calculus is best thought at the 100 level (only a handful of Nigerian secondary schools teach it well) and for most freshmen that's the first time they've ever been exposed to something like that, your old guys have been doing it for more than 4 years, that's why they ace it. end of story

@Ishmael I dey yankee dey hustle. And you can definitely stand on your own if you have a thorough business plan.

zebudaya:

@Ishmael I dey yankee dey hustle. And you can definitely stand on your own if you have a thorough business plan.

My guy i happy 4 you. Make you hustle well o!! Anyway na naija man you be, i trust our guys. Dey pray 4 me make God help me realise my plans of self employment oo!! Take care i beg.

No problems as long as God day we gats to succeed

Dear readers, how many BSc graduates you know that are at home? How many are roaming the street searching for job? You may know some. I believe. I have seen many. Is it because they attended Polytechnics that the society denied them jobs?

See, don’t miss it. HND is for a purpose in every nation that has set it up: for technical development. The only problem is that those that have graduated from Polytechnic always allow what other people or few companies talked about them become their reality

Why must any man allow what another man says becomes his own view about himself. Which university did Bill Gate graduate from? Which did Henry Ford attended? What about Richard Branson of Virgin Atlantic?

Anybody that dodoesn't need you, you don’t need him. Any company that doesn’doesn'tt you don’t want them. I think Zenith bank, Intercontinental Bank need you if UBA don’t. I think Totalfinaelf, Chevron etc do need you if Shell doesn’t. Just extend the list yourself.

In summary, it is neither HND nor BSc that determines your coming in. What most blue cheap companies want is that thing in the certificate – 1.1 or 2.1, Distinction or Upper Credit

pally, you are right. some people allow what the society say about down to weigh dem down. My advice to poly graduates is for them to put their enterpreneur skills into good use. Create a job for yourself and others, thats all. My guy point of correction, zenith bank is among the banks that discriminates against HND holders, their own bad pass some banks sef.

HND is real Nigerian problem.

Yes oo, you are correct. HND is one of nigeria's biggest problems after corruption.

We need to turn nigeria to a production nation not consumer like the way the Degree holders made it. Just Degree in what?

Yes o, Degree in anything can fetch you a good job in nigeria, especially in any commercial bank.

What is the work of Bsc zoology in a bank? Kah!