Hey Gamine, check out my reply to your post about the future of rock music in Nigeria and get in touch:
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-30581.96.html#msg3500352

Another Instance,

Since last year some door to door preachers have being knocking on doors where I live in the States. Last year I pretty much was like ok I have time and I will listen. Fast forward to this year. The same women came knocking on our door again. And she was like I remember you from last year and she asked do I have time. I was like hm not really I am somewhat busy (watching G's To Gents). Then she successfully asked a couple of questions. Keep in mind the American financial crisis going on.

So she asked, have you seen anyone losing their homes? I was like well if you drive around here, you will see many foreclosed homes. Then she asked do you see other problems. I was like well there are problems around everywhere. And she was like do you know how to solve the problem. I was like I am not in a position to do what I would like to do to try to amend the situation. Then she said no no no. Do you know the answers to all the problems we are facing are in the Bible. Then i said, well, I think USA is a majority christian country, so if the answers are in the Bible, and the country is majority christians, why are all these problems happening.

I was also like, if you say you have the answers, dont come to meet me to help me, why not go to the government to talk with the government, that way the solutions you are providing will have a wide impact on more people. She looked at me, and she said well I hope you have a good day. and I reply good luck

@cactus
I like the way you dealt with her. Let her go to the Govt if she has solutions to America's problems rather than bother the small individuals. Anymore instances?

I still cann't get the drift of all the atheist stuff. So basically what do you believe. is an atheist one that believe creation has nothing to do with God and everything to do with evolution. Is evolution the foundation of atheism.
You have to agree with me that everybody has to believe something. So what do atheist believe in. One thing i know for sure is that if evolution is the belief of atheist, then the guy that cann't understand evolution certainly will not be an atheist. right.

Ok wrong! Did you say wrong. so what do you guys belief in.

Unfortunately, those are the two most memorable instances. My friends are all tech, intelligent, and people from different countries with varying life experiences including religion. SO we are all accepting and understanding. I am not more superior than they are, They are not more superior that I am so we have a nice mesh of understanding.


@godzilla

There are three groups of people, THEIST, ATHEIST, and AGNOSTICS

Theist : A person who believes that there exists supreme being(s) (example, God)

Atheist : A person who denies that there are no supreme being(s) (example, God does not exist)

Agnostic : A person who is not sure, questions the possibility of the existence of supreme being(s) (example, it is possible that God can exist but since I have not seen God, how can i accept it as a fact)



Atheist do not believe in the existence of a supreme being that has control over everything. Atheist believe it is ridiculous and how could it be possible. Atheists do not have to believe in anything.

Atheists want prove that there exist a supreme being. A prove as solid as here on earth, if you jump up, you will come back down thanks to gravity. For as long as there is no prove. There is no God.


So if you start to think, well, how could they know there is no God? And if you are having questions about where you stand in terms of religion, if you feel well maybe it is possible no supreme being exists, then you might start to consider yourself being Agnostic.

You do not have to question an Atheist as to why he/she thinks the he/she does. The problem many Atheist face is because, many people that believe in a form of religion or the other are not willing to listen to alternative ideas. They do not care about the possibilities. It is like you want to tell a deaf person the fire is very hot. It is until the deaf person touches the fire, that is when he/she will feel it is hot.

So as long as the deaf person cant hear, he/she will keep walking towards the fire. Don't argue with Atheists, their opinion is just as valid as a Theist opinion.

gozzilla:

I still cann't get the drift of all the atheist stuff. So basically what do you believe. is an atheist one that believe creation has nothing to do with God and everything to do with evolution. Is evolution the foundation of atheism.
You have to agree with me that everybody has to believe something. So what do atheist believe in. One thing i know for sure is that if evolution is the belief of atheist, then the guy that cann't understand evolution certainly will not be an atheist. right.

Ok wrong! Did you say wrong. so what do you guys belief in.

I am an atheist but i do not believe in evolution, i believe in some of its principles not not in the whole theory, i haven't studied it in details, the theory of evolution has been around just for over a 100 years but there have been atheist that have been living for thousands of years before christianyty and islam began to spread.

OYB!!!! See as you advertised me? Holy god of agaracha!

@ Karma, my story is long o, we'll gist one day, don't worry.

I can marry you, don't worry about that.  The more important hurdle with me is that you have to be fine!  and secondly you've got to have a sweet disposition.  Your culinary skills have to be tight too cos I'm a mean cook and it will be a disgrace for a woman to be a worse cook than her husband.  If you can pass these tests then your atheism need not be a problem.

Pastor, me sef I can marry you. Are you "overseeing" any church presently? The tithes and offerings should come in handy. . . . .  

spikedcylinder is an atheist?     Join the club i wouldn't mind marrying you coz i guess it would be easier than telling my babe based in nigeria that am an atheist

Yes, yes. Why does it surprise you though?

You can add a fourth kind of people,THE APARTHEISTS.People who don't give a damn one way or another whether there is a supreme being or not.It makes absolutely no relevance in the way they live their lives.

Cactus:


@godzilla

There are three groups of people, THEIST, ATHEIST, and AGNOSTICS

Theist : A person who believes that there exists supreme being(s) (example, God)

Atheist : A person who denies that there are no supreme being(s) (example, God does not exist)

Agnostic : A person who is not sure, questions the possibility of the existence of supreme being(s) (example, it is possible that God can exist but since I have not seen God, how can i accept it as a fact)



Atheist do not believe in the existence of a supreme being that has control over everything. Atheist believe it is ridiculous and how could it be possible. They do not have to believe in anything. If you are having questions about where you stand in terms of religion, if you feel well maybe it is possible no supreme being exists, then you might start to consider yourself being Agnostic

Updated ending section

Atheist do not believe in the existence of a supreme being that has control over everything. Atheist believe it is ridiculous and how could it be possible. Atheists do not have to believe in anything.

Atheists want prove that there exist a supreme being. A prove as solid as here on earth, if you jump up, you will come back down thanks to gravity. For as long as there is no prove. There is no God.


So if you start to think, well, how could they know there is no God? And if you are having questions about where you stand in terms of religion, if you feel well maybe it is possible no supreme being exists, then you might start to consider yourself being Agnostic.

You do not have to question an Atheist as to why he/she thinks the way he/she does. The problem many Atheist face is because, many people that believe in a form of religion or the other are not willing to listen to alternative ideas. They do not care about the possibilities. It is like you want to tell a deaf person the fire is very hot. It is until the deaf person touches the fire, that is when he/she will feel it is hot.

So as long as the deaf person cant hear, he/she will keep walking towards the fire. Don't argue with Atheists, an Atheist's opinion is just as valid as a Theist opinion.


If there is an argument between a Theist and an Atheist, ever notice how an Atheist is more accommodating and a Theist is most of the time fuming?

--------
Never heard of APARTHEISTS.

@spikedcylinder
No mind me. I guess it coz i see your posts all over NL but i've neva seen it here. And you know it not easy being an atheist in Nigeria.

@gozzilla

If you do not get the drift of all these discussion about Atheism, I urge you to read more and try to find more information about it.

If you dont understand a math problem before a test, you ask friends, read books, and ask teachers if possible.
If you have to write an essay about Paleontology, you google or go to library to find information so it improves your understanding.

If you are curious about what this is all about, I urge you to read books, wikipedia on Atheism and as much resources as possible.

Read all you want, get as much information as you want. If you strongly believe your position about religion before you start finding out information on Atheism, your position will stand firmly strong and wont change much but you have a better understanding and knowledge.

Knowledge doesnt kill. To have an intelligent discussion issues, you need information. There is absolutely nothing wrong with reading about Atheism. You are not forced to declare yourself as an Atheist. You do not have to accept an Atheist's thinking. But just know that Atheist exists. If nothing else is learnt.



If you are dating for 2 years and you get married. Then another 2 years later of fantastic relationship. No kids yet. Then one day your partner sits you down and starts to talk. Darling you know what for the past four years, you are a great person and we have a great relationship but something bothers me. I want to tell you that I am an Atheist. For anyone that is a Theist, I hope no one will discontinue the relationship. but these are all possibilities. So one needs to understand and accept the possibilities

gozzilla:

I still cann't get the drift of all the atheist stuff. So basically what do you believe. is an atheist one that believe creation has nothing to do with God and everything to do with evolution. Is evolution the foundation of atheism.
You have to agree with me that everybody has to believe something. So what do atheist believe in. One thing i know for sure is that if evolution is the belief of atheist, then the guy that cann't understand evolution certainly will  not be an atheist. right.

Ok wrong! Did you say wrong. so what do you guys belief in.

The problem with your type is that you don't prod and ask questions.

Almost all religious people believe that there's a supreme being and the only fact they have to back up their belief is based on the theory of the first cause.

In simple terms, the theory of the first cause defines everything by a cause i.e everything is in existence because it was caused or brought to existence by some other thing or being. Meaning that animals are there because they have been born by their parents, grand parents etc. Humans are here because we have been born by parents who were born by parents and all that ends up with your God. Why does it end there? Why are excuses given for him and his own cause? The theory in itself is useless and very very faulty.

manmustwac:

@spikedcylinder
No mind me. I guess it coz i see your posts all over NL but i've neva seen it here. And you know it not easy being an atheist in Nigeria.

Its ok jare. So when is our wedding then?

August

@spikedcylinder

That is a good point. That is why many scientists are Atheists because Carbon dating is a more solid prove of our existence than religion. If the Bible says the existence of earth is only a couple of thousands of years. Where would one place carbon dating, dinosaur skeletons etc. Civilizations that are thousands of years old. People that lived before the existence of religions.

That is why many scientist doubt the existence of a supreme being

@ Karma, my story is long o, we'll gist one day, don't worry. Grin

Im serious o! I'll be waiting

manmustwac:

August

Neat.

spikedcylinder:

Neat.

Which mean we only get about 5 months to get to know each other. Otherwise i don't want to cancel it. 

KarmaMod:

Im serious o! I'll be waiting

Don't worry, tory go tire you. Whenever you have the time.

manmustwac:

Which mean we only get about 5 months to get to know each other. Otherwise i don't want to cancel it. 

So you think you can just propose and cancel like that eh? God forbid!

All this Atheist pipu sef!!

lolol, its not easy being an atheist in Nigeria? what the heck does this mean

I dont believe in Santa Claus, and i live my life that way

why do i need to prove that Santa dosnt exist and join a Band of people

with one kain label. . .

nawa o for Atheism!!

Hello Spikedcylinder,

Am curious about how you came to atheism in an environment like Nigeria. What lines of thought or reasoning led you to disbelieve the claims of the superstitionist that seem to occupy every nook and cranny in Nigeria.

spikedcylinder:

So you think you can just propose and cancel like that eh? God forbid!

But me wid you get more in common now. Besides if i marry her and she find out my secret she fit divorce me    

huxley:

Hello Spikedcylinder,

Am curious about how you came to atheism in an environment like Nigeria. What lines of thought or reasoning led you to disbelieve the claims of the superstitionist that seem to occupy every nook and cranny in Nigeria.

I sent her an email asking her the same question.

Toneyb . . . i usually have precious little time for much of the misinformation that passes for posts these days but i could not avoid this from you:

Who were the Jews that started christianity? Paul that spent all his time preaching to the gentiles when jesus warned his disciples against doing that? that's if we are to go by what the bible says? (I'll leave that for another discussion).

Who were the Jews that started christianity? - Peter was a jew, he gave the first sermon on the day of pentecost that converted 3000. Philip was a jew, james was a jew, john was a jew . . .

Paul that spent all his time preaching to the gentiles - Paul was also a jew.

when jesus warned his disciples against doing that? - Did you bother to read this? Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Did "all nations" refer to only the tiny jewish nation?

Again, get your facts right.

O boy!

This naija wannabe jew don come here again!

You guys are still at it, I am still wondering if mazaje ever posted here again.

davidylan:

Toneyb . . . i usually have precious little time for much of the misinformation that passes for posts these days but i could not avoid this from you:

same here with me i have little time for most of the misinformation that people keep bandying as truths or facts. by the way what are the misinformations? did the founders of christianity as we know it today kill and advocate the destruction of jew? if catholics are not christains then what are they? you are quick to point out that europewhich is mostly catholic was built on christian principles but when shown some of the christian  principles you claim they are catholic principles not christian principles. you cant have it both ways. europe was under catholic leadeship for centuaries and most of the religious one amongst them were and still remain catholics till this day.

Who were the Jews that started christianity? - Peter was a jew, he gave the first sermon on the day of pentecost that converted 3000. Philip was a jew, james was a jew, john was a jew . . .

Paul that spent all his time preaching to the gentiles - Paul was also a jew.

when jesus warned his disciples against doing that? - Did you bother to read this? [color=#990000]Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

The same jesus warned his disciple not to preach or go into the cities of the gentiles when telling people about the kingdom of god that was at hand. and said he was sent only to the lost tribe of isreal. the all nations here is quite vague and because the 12 tribe of isreal were also addressed as the 12 nations of israel.

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.

Mat 10:6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

Mat 10:7 As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near  

But that is not really the issue here, who were those that spread christianity to the rest of the world? where they jews? did jews bring christianity to africa? did jews bring christianity to america? where jews the one that complied and edited the christian bible? the jews have NO record of jesus, all what we know about jesus today we know through the gentiles, conatantine and the catholic bishops. even 2 out of the 3 synoptic gospels were allegedly written by people who were not amongst the disciples of jesus(mark and luke) where did these people come from?(i personally believe that the writers of the gospels are unknown) there is nothing to show that mark and luke were ever close to jesus yet most people believe that their accounts of events are those of eyewitness. The jews do not believe in christianity or anything that it teaches and they have their hebrew scripture to show that there is nothing in judaism that supports christianity. all the so called prohecy about jesus in the christian bible are delibrate mistranslation or misinterpretation of the jewish bible, read the jps version of the hebrew bible and the king james version(OT) and you will see the difference. Why where the early advocate of christianity burning their(jews) books and killing them if they had nothing to hide?

toneyb:

same here with me i have little time for most of the misinformation that people keep bandying as truths or facts. by the way what are the misinformations? did the founders of christianity as we know it today kill and advocate the destruction of jew?

No. Because Jews would not have advocated the killing of fellow jews.

toneyb:

if catholics are not christains then what are they? you are quick to point out that europewhich is mostly catholic was built on christian principles but when shown some of the christian  principles you claim they are catholic principles not christian principles. you cant have it both ways. europe was under catholic leadeship for centuaries and most of the religious one amongst them were and still remain catholics till this day.

Bull.
England isnt catholic.
America isnt catholic.
Denmark isnt catholic.
Norway isnt catholic.
Australia/New Zealand are not catholic
Germany isnt a catholic nation (a percentage of the population is however catholic).

There are several other Western nations that are not catholic . . .

toneyb:

The same jesus warned his disciple not to preach or go into the cities of the gentiles when telling people about the kingdom of god that was at hand. and said he was sent only to the lost tribe of isreal. the all nations here is quite vague and because the 12 tribe of isreal were also addressed as the 12 nations of israel.

You have problems with this because, like many of you who come here to post, you understand PRECIOUS LITTLE about the bible and the reasons for certain statements made therein. Before the crucifiction, judaism was strictly for the jews . . . after the resurrection salvation was thrown open to both jew and gentile. Peter walked with Christ for 3 solid yrs, he heard (first hand) Christ say He was sent only to the lost tribe of Israel . . . but this same man preached on the day of pentecost to 3000 jews, greeks, gentiles . . . do you think he was merely being disobedient to Christ or he understood something you obviously dont?

Paul preached almost exclusively to gentiles . . . Philip who was also one of the disciples also preached almost exclusively to gentiles . . . was he being wilfully disobedient or he also knew something you skipped?

toneyb:

But that is not really the issue here, who were those that spread christianity to the rest of the world? where they jews? did jews bring christianity to africa? did jews bring christianity to america? where jews the one that complied and edited the christian bible? the jews have NO record of jesus,

Again . . . i keep saying people shld get their facts right . . . obviously you never heard of Flavius Josephus. Mark, Matthew, John were all jews, Paul was a jew too.

toneyb:

all what we know about jesus today we know through the gentiles, conatantine and the catholic bishops.

more hubris. Seems you people read atheist websites like an instructional manual on what to say.

toneyb:

even 2 out of the 3 synoptic gospels were allegedly written by people who were not amongst the disciples of jesus(mark and luke) where did these people come from?

We've been through this before . . . plenty of hot air very little substance. We hear these sort of allegations all the time unfortunately besides conspiracy theories none of you has yet to conclusively prove that Mark and Luke did not write those gospels. Who wrote them? Do you know? Have you any evidence or you are merely spewing something you read somewhere?

toneyb:

(i personally believe that the writers of the gospels are unknown)

But you dont know . . . you just "personally believe" because it is imperative that you must . . . that is one powerful way to delegitimise the validity of the bible no?

toneyb:

there is nothing to show that mark and luke were ever close to jesus yet most people believe that their accounts of events are those of eyewitness.

Probably because they were more interested in telling us the biography of a man than chronicling their own relationship with him.
Do you believe professional biographers know anything about the people they write even though they never include their own relationships with them in the book?

toneyb:

The jews do not believe in christianity or anything that it teaches and they have their hebrew scripture to show that there is nothing in judaism that supports christianity.

simply because the jews expected the Messiah in the form of a King not a carpenter. The confusion of the jews is EXPLICITLY written in the bible and is not up for conjecture.

toneyb:

all the so called prohecy about jesus in the christian bible are delibrate mistranslation or misinterpretation of the jewish bible, read the jps version of the hebrew bible and the king james version(OT) and you will see the difference. Why where the early advocate of christianity burning their(jews) books and killing them if they had nothing to hide?

But the jews believe the prophecies . . . infact they quote Isaiah too.

Like i keep saying - get your facts right.

Writing epistles to cover your lack of knowledge wont help.

Gamine - Why are you so interested in the Atheist mindset. Your interest is intriguing.

I dont believe in Santa Claus, and i live my life that way

why do i need to prove that Santa dosnt exist and join a Band of people

People's live aren't based around the words of Santa Claus, no one is ridiculed nor persecuted for believing in Santa claus

I don't like debating theist because all what you guys have is belief but let me make a few points straight.

davidylan:

No. Because Jews would not have advocated the killing of fellow jews.

If you noticed i said christianity as we know it today, who where does that brought christianity to africa and propagated it all over the world? Jews? or europeans gentiles?

Bull.
England isnt catholic.
America isnt catholic.
Denmark isnt catholic.
Norway isnt catholic.
Australia/New Zealand are not catholic
Germany isnt a catholic nation (a percentage of the population is however catholic). There are several other Western nations that are not catholic . . .

I was talking about when europe was under the catholic church not recently. england was under the catholic church for a very long time, by the way what is america, australia and new zealand doing in the list?

You have problems with this because, like many of you who come here to post, you understand PRECIOUS LITTLE about the bible and the reasons for certain statements made therein. Before the crucifiction, judaism was strictly for the jews . . . after the resurrection salvation was thrown open to both jew and gentile. Peter walked with Christ for 3 solid yrs, he heard (first hand) Christ say He was sent only to the lost tribe of Israel . . . but this same man preached on the day of pentecost to 3000 jews, greeks, gentiles . . . do you think he was merely being disobedient to Christ or he understood something you obviously dont?

Paul preached almost exclusively to gentiles . . . Philip who was also one of the disciples also preached almost exclusively to gentiles . . . was he being wilfully disobedient or he also knew something you skipped?

This is ur basic christian belief and i will leave you to your  beliefs, i usually dont argue about theology and the basic concepts of christian beliefs i only point out when christians lie about history or twist history in other to support their beliefs.

Again . . . i keep saying people shld get their facts right . . . obviously you never heard of Flavius Josephus. Mark, Matthew, John were all jews, Paul was a jew too
more hubris. Seems you people read atheist websites like an instructional manual on what to say,

What do we know about matthew, mark and john? we know nothing about them apart from what the gospel say about them. there is no evidence to show if they ever existed. again i repeat the jews have no record of jesus at all. there is no record of anything jesus did except in the bible. As for Josephus that has long been proven to be a fraud of a roman catholic bishop called Eusebius. Josephus never wrote ANYTHING about jesus.

I have talked about that b4 but here it is again.

Lets take a look at the "Testimonium Flavanium" in Antiquities of the Jews, it has long been known to be fraudulent. The text from the section 3, is as follows;

Antiquities of the Jews, Section 3 "The Testimonium Flavanium," Josephus Flavius

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day

The largest and most obvious problem with this lies in sections 2 and 4 (ie. the preceding and succeeding paragraphs) which read;

Antiquities of the Jews, Section 2," Josephus Flavius

So he bid the Jews himself go away; but they boldly casting reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were tumultuous, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded. And thus an end was put to this sedition

Antiquities of the Jews, Section 4," Josephus Flavius

About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder, and certain shameful practices happened about the temple of Isis that was at Rome. I will now first take notice of the wicked attempt about the temple of Isis, and will then give an account of the Jewish affairs.

See the problem? Section 3 has no relevance to the surrounding passages. It is TOTALLY out of place. Furthermore, sections 2 and 4 appear to flow together perfectly with the "testimonium" removed.

There are other issues. One is that the language used in section 3 differs heavily from Josephus' normal syle. Add to that, Josephus refers to to him as the Christ, a title, meaning "annointed one" and not a name. This didn't fit in with Josephus' own beliefs. He was not a Christian and other works of his state that he believed that Emperor Vespasian was the messiah. Josephus even spends more time in his work, discussing other "supposed" messiahs. Far more airtime than he gave to Jesus, who, if the testimonium is to be believed, he knew to be the true messiah.

But the biggest kicker is that "Antiquties. . " had been a major work since a century after the supposed time of Jesus. Yet not one Christian leader ever pointed to it as evidence for Jesus or all about any of the things the bible said he did. All these people who would have known the works of Josephus conveniently ignored it. It only came to light and was used as proof around 400 years later; the time of Constantine and after the adoption of Christianity by the Roman Empire and Bishop Eusebius, who has been well documented as saying it was a perfectly acceptable technique to convert people through LIES. Remember, the oldest extant manuscripts of Josephus are from the 9th century. We know Eusebius and the Roman Catholic Church had their hands in all of this forgery.The most damning evidence against the Testimonium is that no Christian apologist prior to Constantine’s “acquisition,” of Christianity makes even the slightest reference to Josephus making a mention of Jesus in any of his works. Now, admittedly, it could be argued that no Christian apologist at the time had read this particular works. However, this seems a stretch, as it would require them to have been unaware of one of Josephus' most famous works. He was, after all, one of the most famous and prolific Jewish historians of the period and anyone who could actually, honestly claim to make accurate statements about Judea in the first century would have known of him and read his works.

It is also conveniently sidestepped that no other work of Josephus makes mention of Jesus. "Jewish Wars," covers the same area and period, yet makes no mention. Josephus also provides long sections detailing the life of one "John the Baptist," yet again, Jesus and any of the things that the bible said he did gets no mention. Even more worrying, Josephus also meticulously documented the life of King Herod, unfortunatley stating the fact that Herod was long dead by the time the Romans decided to take a census, ruining any likelihood that Joseph and Mary would have been on their way to Bethlehem during Herod's reign. He also failed to mention any acts of infanticide commited on Herod's orders. Obviously, these don't directly contradict the Testimonium's validity, but they do contradict the validity of other stories surrounding the life of Jesus. Josephus was a Jew--a priest of the religion of Moses. This passage makes him acknowledge the divinity, the miracles, and the resurrection of Christ--that is to say, it makes an orthodox Jew talk like a believing Christian! Josephus could not possibly have written these words without being logically compelled to embrace Christianity. All the arguments of history and of reason unite in the conclusive proof that the passage is an unblushing forgery.

[list]
[li]•The passage contains overtly Christian content
•The overall passage is positive towards Jesus, even if the overtly Christian parts are removed
•The passage interrupts the continuity of the writing
•Jesus is not mentioned in the Table of Contents
•There are stylistic variations from Josephus' style
•The passage is not referenced by anyone prior to Eusebius in the 4th century
•The section on Pilate is similar to another section on Pilate in Josephus' earlier writing    The Jewish War, which does not contain the Jesus reference
•Josephus never wrote anything else about Jesus
•The reference is quite small considering the subject matter, and the fact that Josephus wrote more about John the Baptist and other "false prophets"
• Full insertion of the paragraph is more likely than multiple different alterations
[/li]

[/list]
For these reasons every honest Christian scholar has abandoned it as an interpolation. Even Bishop Warburton denounced it as "a rank forgery and a very stupid one, too.

One more thing Josephus mentions and writes in details about one "John the Baptist". There are more than enough differences between his account and those found in the gospels. Interesting he places John the Baptis's death at a date later than that given for Jesus' death, even though the gospels all agree that John the baptist died first.

We've been through this before . . . plenty of hot air very little substance. We hear these sort of allegations all the time unfortunately besides conspiracy theories none of you has yet to conclusively prove that Mark and Luke did not write those gospels. Who wrote them? Do you know? Have you any evidence or you are merely spewing something you read somewhere?

Where in the bible did they "writers" ever claim authorship of any of the gospel writing? Even paul' letters who Christian scholars agree to be the oldest Christian writings have claim of ownership, paul readily admits that he wrote some of those letters, and you don't see him reporting in the second or third person accounts of events he witnessed.

Historical works at that time typically had a table of contents,the authors of the works identified themselves, and they were written in a formal style.we can begin with the wars of the Jews, by josephus. if you look at it you will see that he clearly identifies himself as the author. according to the apostolistic tradition a gospel could only be considered "authentic" if it had a direct lineage to an apostle, thus the names assigned to each of the Gospels were given in order to help establish their authenticity.

But you dont know . . . you just "personally believe" because it is imperative that you must . . . that is one powerful way to delegitimise the validity of the bible no?

Same with you apart from belief what evidence have you got to show that they wrote any of the gospels, they never claimed any authorship and that is enough evidence for me. Besides the gospels were written about 40-100 years after the alleged events took place.

Probably because they were more interested in telling us the biography of a man than chronicling their own relationship with him.

How come no comtemporary writer wrote any thing about jesus except them long after the events they wrote supposely happened? Josephus accounts of events does not agree at all with anything the bible says. He covered all the life of herod in his writings and he never said herod organized the killing of babies, infact there is no such record of such an event except in the bible, his own john the baptist is very different from the one talked about in the bible.

Do you believe professional biographers know anything about the people they write even though they never include their own relationships with them in the book?

The writers are unknown their accounts of events were very poorly written. We have been through that before. Example where did jesus first appear to the eleven disciples?  In a room in Jerusalem according to Luke 24:32-37.  On a mountain in Galilee according to  Matthew 28:15-17. So which is it? room or mountain? Jerusalem or Galilee? A room is not a mountain and Jerusalem is not Galilee(The 11 disciples can not be in Jerusalem and Galilee at the same time). And we are supposed to believe that this are the accounts of eye witness who witnessed all that happened despite the fact that they got it all mixed up in their accounts

simply because the jews expected the Messiah in the form of a King not a carpenter. The confusion of the jews is EXPLICITLY written in the bible and is not up for conjecture.

The confusion of the Jews is written in your bible not theirs, there is no where in their own bible where it is written that the messiah will come in the way jesus did.  The requirements for the messiah are as follows per the Jewish bible stone edition.

1.  He must be from the seed of David through Solomon
2.  He will be anointed King of Israel (the word messiah means anointed, nothing more and nothing less)
3.  He will return the Jewish people to Israel
4.  He will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem
5.  He will bring peace to the world and end all war
6.  He will bring knowledge of god to the world

All of the authentic Jewish messianic prophecies are empirically verifiable.  The entire world will be able to see and verify the above.

Some things he will not be:
He will not be a deity
He will not need 2 visits to accomplish his mission
He will not die for peoples sins
He will not be pierced its all in the hebrew bible go and read it up.

But the jews believe the prophecies . . . infact they quote Isaiah too.

Do they quote Isiah when refering to Jesus? The prophecy in Isaiah has nothing to do with jesus at all.

Like i keep saying - get your facts right.

Writing epistles to cover your lack of knowledge wont help.

You are the one that needs to get your facts right. The person that lacks knowledge is you not me.

toneyb:

I don't like debating theist because all what you guys have is belief but let me make a few points straight.

neither do i like debating atheists because all you have is unbelief.

toneyb:

If you noticed i said christianity as we know it today, who where does that brought christianity to africa and propagated it all over the world? Jews? or europeans gentiles?

Jews propagated christianity to the world. Brits and Americans didnt go learn christianity in Israel.

toneyb:

I was talking about when europe was under the catholic church not recently. england was under the catholic church for a very long time, by the way what is america, australia and new zealand doing in the list?

America, Australia and NZ are simply European-colonized lands.

toneyb:

What do we know about matthew, mark and john? we know nothing about them apart from what the gospel say about them. there is no evidence to show if they ever existed.

Questions like this are better ignored. If they didnt exist it would be worldwide knowledge by now not confined to the rantings of atheist blogs.

toneyb:

again i repeat the jews have no record of jesus at all. there is no record of anything jesus did except in the bible.

From the Rabbinic talmud - "On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu (of Nazareth) … he hath practiced sorcery and beguiled and led astray Israel. Let everyone knowing aught in his defense come and plead for him. But they found naught in his defense and hanged him on the eve of Passover"

Yeah . . . no record at all.

toneyb:

As for Josephus that has long been proven to be a fraud of a roman catholic bishop called Eusebius. Josephus never wrote ANYTHING about jesus.

Here we go again. More copying from atheist rants. If Josephus didnt exist or didnt write anything about Christ it would be common knowledge by now.

toneyb:

Where in the bible did they "writers" ever claim authorship of any of the gospel writing? Even paul' letters who Christian scholars agree to be the oldest Christian writings have claim of ownership, paul readily admits that he wrote some of those letters, and you don't see him reporting in the second or third person accounts of events he witnessed.

The same old recycled questions . . . i must have read this from Huxley, Bindex, Mazaje now . . . do you guys have something new?

Ever read a biography written by a professional biographer? Where does he claim authorship of the work?

toneyb:

The confusion of the Jews is written in your bible not theirs, there is no where in their own bible where it is written that the messiah will come in the way jesus did. The requirements for the messiah are as follows per the Jewish bible stone edition.

Ah the prophecy of the virgin birth is in the book of Isaiah, Jews have a copy in their talmud.

toneyb:

1. He must be from the seed of David through Solomon
2. He will be anointed King of Israel (the word messiah means anointed, nothing more and nothing less)
3. He will return the Jewish people to Israel
4. He will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem
5. He will bring peace to the world and end all war
6. He will bring knowledge of god to the world

All of the authentic Jewish messianic prophecies are empirically verifiable. The entire world will be able to see and verify the above.

Some things he will not be:
He will not be a deity
He will not need 2 visits to accomplish his mission
He will not die for peoples sins
He will not be pierced its all in the hebrew bible go and read it up.

Do these folks just make this up as they go along? Amazing how foolish their unproven lies sound. HAVE YOU READ THE HEBREW BIBLE OR DID YOU JUST COPY THIS FROM AN EQUALLY DELUDED ATHEIST TOO?

toneyb:

Do they quote Isiah when refering to Jesus? The prophecy in Isaiah has nothing to do with jesus at all.

Read Matthew . . . the pharisees quoted Isaiah when reporting the possible birth of the messiah to king Herod. Solid evidence that they KNEW what Isaiah had written. The book of Isaiah was also found among the dead sea scrolls (from the strictest Jewish sect before the fall of Jerusalem).

toneyb:

You are the one that needs to get your facts right. The person that lacks knowledge is you not me.

He writes a long long meaningless diatribe and automatically assumes he "has knowledge"?