Seun:

If the child thinks you are beating out of love, he'll be ok. But if the child is intelligent enough to realise that you are beating him out of ignorance, then you will have problems.

There are parents who have been able to raise disciplined children without beating. So it is either you learn how to discipline a child non-violently, or you go ahead and beat the child and hope the child sees it as an expression of love.

If you are willing to go thrugh the pain of childbirth and the struggles of childbearing, why is it so hard to learn how to discipline a child nonviolently? If I were president I will force all married couples to go to parenting school to learn it before they are allowed to raise kids.

Your school would be nice, but first, it requires someone to come up with a non-violent method (ie no beatings) that works for the majority of children. There is currently only one such method I can think of, whipping boys (or girls).

In some monarchistic societies, the little prince or princess could not be physically punished. Instead, there was a whipping boy chosen to accept their punishments. Whenever the prince did something wrong, the whipping boy would recieve his lashes publically. Maybe if we had whipping boys or girls, our children could see the impact of their behavior on others without being physically affected.

The "whipping boy" concept you described above was a really stupid custom! Whose children do you intend to use as whipping boys/girls for your kids? Definitely not mine!

There is a very body of knowledge on how to raise and discipline children without resorting to spanking, caning, or whipping other people's innocent children. Techniques used include: Time-outs, Hugging, Distraction, Reason, Consequences, Modeling, Praise and rewards, etc. Read: Non-Violent Child Discipline.

I will read the info you provided. But the short list you just gave only works on children who are disposed towards being good.

Ok, from the site you provided:

Time outs - not a punishment, useful for calming a child down or when they are misbehaving due to excitement

Hugging - used for very young children incapable of fulling discerning right from wrong to calm them and keep them from misbehaving

Distraction - again, useful when kids are young to redirect their bad behavior to constructive activities

I totally agree with these methods - they are only advocated for use for very young children. . i will not be spanking a two-year old .. . however, one reason they are not to be used with older children is because it is less effective as someone gets smarter and it does not address what is wrong with behavior, just redirects it.

Now, for the rest:

Reason, scolding, praise and rewards, consequences, and modeling. I agree one should use reason, scolding, and praise and rewards. . however, I seriously doubt that if a child continuous to misbehave, they would be affective without some physical punishment.

Modeling - I'm assuming that all of our hypothetical and "real" parents here will be modeling good behavior. For us, this is a given in this discussion.

Consequences - the article gives an example of letting a child get indigestion from overeating candy despite your warning not to do so. This is fine for non-lethal misbehavior. However, playing with matches/fire, beating another child or animal, and lots of other things cannot be resolved by just letting them play out. Letting a child burn a house down while it may be an effective tool to teach the child not to play with matches, it is not something you want to happen. So, you must substitute a beating for a destroyed house.

What I've been saying is that in many cases, non-physical chastisement will work. However, there are plenty of example behavior that many kids go through where that is not enough. At the moment, I have not seen any non-physical (or non mental) punishment which would achieve good results.

BTW, the whipping boy, is an example of a punishment that could fit under consequences - the child sees the consequences of their actions when the other one is whipped. If your child is not a psycopath, it is also a mental punishment as well.

WOOOOO

I think we have to seriously defind spanking and every method we use to spank our children.

Today's children are different from how many of us were when we were growing up and we have to take that into account.

Punishment in my oppinion is wrong. It is very damaging to children and I think it's a method of control used in a wrongful way.

Disciplining your child is a completely different thing. Understanding their behaviors is a must, then being wise enough to know how to guide and re-direct their behaviors is another important factor.

Many children grow up scared from abuse of their parents and they have had to live their own lives seeing this abuse as normal. Then when they have children they abuse their children because they think it's normal.

I think having structure in our homes and making the rules clear is a must, but being controlling till the point of abuse is crazy and it has to stop.
Children should be respectful to their parents and other fellow humans and society without question. One thing is for sure, our children learn from us. so some of the behaviors we show our children they pick it and if we don't model good behaviors then why are we expecting to see good behaviors? It's bigger than telling your child something, we have to truly be examples for them.

Yes sometimes you may hit your child but I think each time you decided to hit your children they need to know why they are being hit so that they may understand. Also they do not need to be hit while you are upset because you may hurt them more.

To slap someone in the face is an insult. Now as adults we would feel insulted to be slapped in the face, so is it to say that because our children are children that it's OK to slap them in the face?

Just because our parents did it to us does not mean that we have to do it to our children. All we have to do is think about how it made us feel and how it makes our children feel.
They are human and yes they are children given to us from the most high, but they are not our property to treat any way that we want. We are to guide, protect, love, provide and nurture them until they are able to do these things for themselves.

Sometimes we want them to live the life we want for them without considering that they are people too and they have their own interest in life that we should be supportive of, even if we disapprove of it.

Hey we have lived ours now they should live theirs. Again if we model the best of our selves to them then they will pick up some if not all of those qualities. But we have to remember that they have their own personalities and their own way of doing things just as we do. Many of us do live our lives out just as our parents want us to but how many of us are truly happy with that choice now that we are grown?

Yes there are some children who are just very disrespectful and have gone in the wrong direction. This is sad and as a parent we always want the best for our children as we should.
So I do understand, but I do not believe that abusive control is the answer. Or depriving them of things so that they may learn a lesson. If they don't want to listen to their parents, you better believe that life will teach them the hard way.


( Sorry I just went on, maybe because I'm a pre-School teacher)

Nice right up kenya. But I beg to disagree when you refer to spanking as "abusive control". Maybe that is so in your community but not in my own community. I would spank my kids when the need arises but i would never "abuse" them. Like you mentioned spanking should be done with wisdom in a way whereby the child is made to understand why it is happening. I kinda understand your point of view been a pre-school teacher and all but I have also been a pre-school teacher handling kids btw the ages of 3 months - 3 years. Though i would never spank someone elses kid as a child care-giver and otherwise (except maybe my siblings') I would still spank my own kids when and if i think the need arises. That I dont think should be tagged "abuse". Abuse is on an entirely different level.

True indeed Sis,

My apologies if I stated spanking as abuse because i do not see it that way. That would be a very eurocentric way of doing things.
I think spanking becomes necessary and each parent has to decide when and how spanking takes place within their homes.

But there are some people who abuse their children and are not aware of it, in fact they call it spanking.

Abuse means something different for everyone.
so it truly has to be defined and examined.

I have many friends from Africa (more in Liberia & Nigeria) that told me about different methods of spanking and discipline used by their parents that affects their lives in a negative way. One of the most critical ones is the mental abuse of not allowing them to be their own person.

Quite truthfully I think that in my culture as an African American woman I may have some of the same cultural practices of spanking as African's all across the world. In-Fact I know that some of them are the same. Yes some are abusive and some are not.

But I truly agree with you about the difference in being abusive and spanking.

Kenya:

My apologies if I stated spanking as abuse because i do not see it that way. That would be a very eurocentric way of doing things.
I think spanking becomes necessary and each parent has to decide when and how spanking takes place within their homes.

Why would this be eurocentric?

Well in the Eurocentric culture, especially here in America the children are view as equals to their parents in the sense that what is good for the child is good for the family.
Where in most African cultures and others what is good for the family is good for the child (not saying that our children are not valued).

Most people in the Eurocentic culture believe strongly that spanking your child is a form of abuse because the child is entitled to have an opinion and able make choices. Further more they believe that spanking damages the child's self esteem and that we should be very flexible with our children, allow them as much Independence as possible and not to intervene with children too much.

This is not a bad concept, I just do not agree that it is effective in establishing the clear rules, boundaries, discipline, valued community life, accountability to community and respect for human life which is essential to living. Further more children many need lot's intervention to help them work through life until they are able to handle them selves.     

Of coarse there is a fine line but for this Eurocentric culture the fine line can be disrespectful to other cultural practices of disciplining or spanking their children.  In America it has gotten so bad that children actually tell their parents "You can hit me or I'll call the police" So the Eurocentric government has moved itself in the position of becoming the parent within the household underminding parents and has set the standard for what good parenting is and is not. This is a problem for many people because it goes against their cultural practices which is not considered abuse defined by the culture.

Oops

Correction in the last paragraph

In America children say to their parents "you can't hit me or I'll call the police"

Pour hot water on their head. j/k


The best way to punish them is... ermm, talk to em. Words really pain more than beatings of anything! Beat them with words.

hot-angel:

Pour hot water on their head. j/k


The best way to punish them is... ermm, talk to em. Words really pain more than beatings of anything! Beat them with words.

Wouldnt that still be called "phsycho wateve abuse " in your America?
I mean when they are all growed up,wont they still say my parents abused me verbally?

@ Kenya
I don't think you can extrapollate a specific practice of the predominantly white existing power structure in the US and assume it eurocentric, i.e. coming from European cultural practices. There is quite a large difference in cultural values between the US and Europe and even within Europe, the differences on how the relationship between parents and children should be is quite big.


I personally - and I hope I'm not offending anyone too much here - consider the dominant culture of the US as a sort of ugly immature stepchild of European culture. The lack of historical perspective (which can go very far), the sense of uniqueness and mental isolation, the insensitivity to people and cultures with another frame of reference and the inability to reflect on its ugly past and learn lessons from it is offensive to me.

Now I'm certainly not saying that all is well and dandy here in Europe, but the cultural climate over here has matured considerable, especially after the trauma of WW2 and the establishment of the EU. Unfortunately this climate is only prevalent in the reasonably well off, educated parts of the population. A majority of the population is too much occupied with day to day living/survival to even bother with these kind of things.

What I find quite peculiar is that extremist right wing talking heads are much more mainstream in the US than in Europe. We don't have our versions of Coulter, Robertson and the like.

Hope I didn't derail this thread too much.

Yes, you actually went off-topic, but we still love you

Ok, so let's learn to discipline kids constructively and without needless aggression. We want them to be docile, peace-loving, and progressive when they grow up, not war-mongerers and corrupt people like we have today.

@ nferyn,

I do understand your point and I think it's true that the things listed are not specific to the European culture, yet it is commonly found among that culture. There are many people of the European culture who use different methods than what was listed and they are exceptional.

Now If I were to be speculating about the things that I listed within my current post then that would be wrong of me. But what I listed is not speculation, it's merely factual that can be researched.
The tern Eurocentris was used do to the fact that Caucasian people are originally descendants of Europe, Spain, and other countries close by.
It's very parallel to Black or Brown people who are all originally from Africa Known as the mother land of civilization, the place where the first human lived. Despite the fact that African's all over the world have many uniques ways of practicing our beliefs we are all still African's and our unique expressions of our culture is known as being Afro centric especially here in America. The term Afrocentric gives reference to our essence as African's.

I learned a great deal of what I said by my experience living under the influence of the Dominate culture here in America, from study of cultural practices and from my current professors who are of European descent. I take it that these Caucasian professors are well aware of their history and cultural practices.

At the end of the day as many of us have said, it's very important for us to find healthy methods and strategies for discipling our children.

Sorry Seun,
I'm back to the point.

nferyn:

I personally - and I hope I'm not offending anyone too much here - consider the dominant culture of the US as a sort of ugly immature stepchild of European culture. The lack of historical perspective (which can go very far), the sense of uniqueness and mental isolation, the insensitivity to people and cultures with another frame of reference and the inability to reflect on its ugly past and learn lessons from it is offensive to me.

Now I'm certainly not saying that all is well and dandy here in Europe, but the cultural climate over here has matured considerable, especially after the trauma of WW2 and the establishment of the EU. Unfortunately this climate is only prevalent in the reasonably well off, educated parts of the population. A majority of the population is too much occupied with day to day living/survival to even bother with these kind of things.

What I find quite peculiar is that extremist right wing talking heads are much more mainstream in the US than in Europe. We don't have our versions of Coulter, Robertson and the like.

Hope I didn't derail this thread too much.

If the existence of extremist talking heads is the basis for your view of the cultural climate in the united states . . . well, in any case, I disagree with most of what you just posted.

I don't see american culture as an immature stepchild, if anything, it serves both as a lesson and a model to the world. despite the existence of people such as coulter and robertson, entities such as the kkk, america is still among the most advanced in terms of its acceptance of other cultures. If anything, it's Europe which is still resistant to diversity - vis a vis France. .

I can certainly agree that america is a newcomer to the idea of acceptance of cultural diversity, however, america by virtue of how it was founded, economy, gold rushes, etc - has got to be the most diverse country in the world - and I think I can probably show it is the most accepting of diversity.

What many - non americans have expressed as initially disliking about america is what you term american belief in their own uniqueness. Others term it arrogance or hubris. In all honesty, maybe i've been here too long, I don't see it. What I see is pride in the diversity. . . polyglot that makes america what it is . . . americans feel a great sense of accomplishment. . .and one has to admit that they are entitled to it.

However, i think the world is moving (or has moved) to a time when the accomplishment counters of the world's nations have to be reset. Now is a time for everyone to reprove themselves (or prove themselves for the first time). I think this is where some of the . . . dislike . . .stems from. While everyone is working hard to "prove" themselves, america is resting on its laurels and saying "nah. . .we've got nothing to prove. . we're already good".

This I feel is america's problem. . . and why there is going to be major upsets in the world order in the next 20 or so years. . . IF myself and my fellow students are suddenly all killed by meteor showers. . .

So, WORLD, watch out. . . there is a new generation of americans. . . we're not as bombastic as the previous ones. . . but we will make our presence known

allonym:

If the existence of extremist talking heads is the basis for your view of the cultural climate in the united states . . . well, in any case, I disagree with most of what you just posted.

I touched a nerve here, I guess. Sorry for that, I was just trying to be honest in expressing my opinion. The effect of these extremist talking heads on the policy of the nation, both internally and externally, cannot possibly be underestimated. You could read Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent as a more in depth analysis of the media in the US. Think about things such as embedded journalism, un-american behaviour, freedom fries and the overall position of Fox news.

allonym:

I don't see American culture as an immature stepchild, if anything, it serves both as a lesson and a model to the world. despite the existence of people such as coulter and robertson, entities such as the kkk, america is still among the most advanced in terms of its acceptance of other cultures. If anything, it's Europe which is still resistant to diversity - vis a vis France. .

One thing you seem to ignore is that the US is a country based on immigration and has Incorporated immigrants since it's inception. The fact that there are still such huge problems between the different communities is a point that is worth reflecting upon. It makes me think of a voluntary 'seperate but equal' [/i]attitude. If you see the level of integration of the different communities in the UK in less than 50 years (even though they are following the same cummunalistic approach to multiculturalism), then I wonder why the US is barely ahead of the UK in that regard. Another difference I see is that integration is accomplished both on a interpersonal and on a professional level in the UK.
And I wonder how accepting the US actually is of Arab muslim culture. Crusades against terrorism and all incalculated.
France is - as always - [i]un cas apart. They chose for a system of total assimilation and they have accomplished assimilation this for their internal minority cultures. You just had riots, but these were mainly caused because the right wing government chose to reduce their integration efforts for the immigrants, which had to lead to this explosive situation in the short or the long run.
What Europe needs badly is affirmative action in the labour market. This is the only place where the development of the immigrant underclass can be reversed. I have full confidence that on an interpersonal level there won't be any problems
For most other European countries immigration is a very recent phenomenon and it's too early to draw any meaningful conclusions.

allonym:

I can certainly agree that america is a newcomer to the idea of acceptance of cultural diversity, however, america by virtue of how it was founded, economy, gold rushes, etc - has got to be the most diverse country in the world - and I think I can probably show it is the most accepting of diversity.

I certainly agree that is the case for diversity of different communities, but tell me how diverse are the communities internally? Do not forget the historical perspective here. When it comes to immigration, Europe is really the new kid on the block.

allonym:

What many - non americans have expressed as initially disliking about america is what you term american belief in their own uniqueness. Others term it arrogance or hubris. In all honesty, maybe i've been here too long, I don't see it. What I see is pride in the diversity. . . polyglot that makes america what it is . . . americans feel a great sense of accomplishment. . .and one has to admit that they are entitled to it.

What I see is an unwarranted idea that their unique solutions can be applied to other cultural settings (e.g. what I have heard here a few times is whites in the US being referred to as Europeans - this is complete and utter crap as the only Americans that may be considered Europeans culturally is a fringe minority from New York, Seattle or San Fransisco. Canadians are waaay closer to European cultural values than white Americans).
In general the accomplishments of the US post WW2 are these of an imperial juggernaut, very much like Britain before WW2. When you have access to all resources under your control, when you control the largest and most powerful military in the world, when the international institutions are all set up to suit your ambitions (UN security council, IMF, World Bank) , when you hold the reserve currency and have an internal market that is large enough to allow you to dump your produce on the world market (e.g. cultural products) after they are break even in your internal market..... what then can you expect?
I can tell you a few stories about the application of American diversity within Europe, but I'll hold that for later.

allonym:

However, i think the world is moving (or has moved) to a time when the accomplishment counters of the world's nations have to be reset. Now is a time for everyone to reprove themselves (or prove themselves for the first time). I think this is where some of the . . . dislike . . .stems from. While everyone is working hard to "prove" themselves, America is resting on its laurels and saying "nah. . .we've got nothing to prove. . we're already good".

You may also consider that the model of unrestricted capitalism chosen by the US is not exactly the one other nations want to emulate. The one accomplishment that I, as a European, am proud of is the establishment of the welfare state in Western Europe. The ghost of unlimited competition (whipped up by the IMF and World bank cronies) is undermining the very foundation of post WW2 Europe and I do not want to enter in this world of cutthroat competition without regard for anything but profit.
There are nations (China and India to be precise) that have much more stomach for that than the US has. If the US chooses to put ideology before pragmatism, there will be a lot of people that are going to be hurt.

allonym:

This I feel is america's problem. . . and why there is going to be major upsets in the world order in the next 20 or so years. . . IF myself and my fellow students are suddenly all killed by meteor showers. . .

So, WORLD, watch out. . . there is a new generation of americans. . . we're not as bombastic as the previous ones. . . but we will make our presence known

I'm very happy for you. I just hope you'll (plural) travel enough around the world to ensure that you have a broader perspective than your forebears.

A child should be beaten....but not to the extent of inferiority complex...that was how bad mine was..I have to run away from my parents and surroundings to un tire that desease...I am a naturally born sturborn goat

oh lawd! be easy mehn

One , two or three blows on the butt, that's it. Insist in obedience.

Apologize to your child and ask him or her to forgive you when you shouted.

heh. . i guess we went a little off topic. . .

i think my post came across a little too polarized - or maybe I didn't do a good job of explaining some of my views because I actually agree with most of your reply.

BTW, I just got this book: The World is Flat by Thomas L. Friedman. I think its a great read at least for Americans who think they can get away with being insular or anyone who thinks they can do that in their own country. Its also a great read for anyone who has or wants to be part of major change in the near future. While it may be geared towards American readers, it provides a lot of insight which anyone with ambition, smarts, and opportunity can take good advantage of.

the best way is by not punishing but by reinforcement. and consequences

seun plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

To punish a kid depends on so many things. If a child is well trained and disciplined, the parents do not need punishment all they need to do is praise and reward the child's good actions-reinforcement and when the child does something you do not like, you withdraw the praise and reward:- negative reinforce and make the child understand how you feel. For Example: if the child is playing a ball in the house and mistakingly breaks a lamp or bulb, you tell the child you are upset because he(child) has just spoilt something you really liked. Give the child an example like what if i spoil your teddy bear, or take away your favorite toy how will you feel?? that way, a well trained child is going to feel really bad and apologize because he understands that what he(child) did was wrong. but when you just yell and punish or spank, the child becomes more cunning, the child can break the lamp and even deny he didn;t, and he may not understand the way you really feel about his(child) actions.

Gracious, are you formally trained in this matter of child training? I'm loving your posts, and learning. Thanks!

@ seun thanks. I have some knowledge in child raising issues.

seun 4 ur information there r certain children who only understand the word of the cain and i say this 4rm experience cuz i was 1 of such children.my mother could talk 4rm now till kingdomcome but onlyl when i new there was threat of being beaten did i do what was expected of me.i'm not sayin she beat 4 every wrong thing i did but there r certain times u just have to imploy the use of a cain.N.B the Bible can never b wrong.so don't say things that might get u in trouble with baba God

well it depends on the offence really i have a set of twins(boys) aged 8.and i noticed one responds to spanking while the other is more responsive towards words.
BUT i make it clear that because we live in a developed country doesnt mean i wont WHACK THEIR BOTTOMS WHEN NECESSARY.once both of them actually REPORTED me to their teachers in school.and guess what?i had effing social services,SHADOWING me to make sure i wasnt ABUSING my two brats.when i learnt what they had done..I WHACKED THEM SOME MORE and i taught them that because mummy feels the need to spank doesnt mean i hate them.
its important from a mothers view to let them understand why they are been punished.
but one language they BOTH UNDERSTAND is getting their computer games etc seized AND if we out in public,and they wanna act up,i just give them ONE HARD GLARE and they quit messing around. but all in all,kids will always be kids,but at the same time its essential to let them know who is boss.im not letting some 8 year olds control my life.

nice mummy!..easy but firm

I don't believe that a kid can control my life just because I don't beat him. I believe that a child that is beaten will grow up to be a beater. I would only beat a child if I find him beating a younger one. Ultimately, beating is a short term measure used to control kids when the parent has no time the genuine method of reasoning with the child and making him understand why he needs to behave. Beating makes a child to believe that the only way to discipline her own children is by beating. Beating makes a man grow up to think it's ok to hit his wife when she "misbehaves". Beating is more common among blacks in the US, and their adults are not better off for it.

I just have a few questions and need some answers. I am a young mother of two, my daughter is six and my son is two. I work nights, I am on the go from the time I get up til the time I go to bed monday through friday. I feel that I dont spend ample time with my kids. that hurts. So my question is how in are busy lives do we learn how to pull everything together. Also I've read everything that you said as far as discipline and I agree that you should not yell or flogg. those are very incorrect methods, but we all tend to do it, it does happen.

Seun:

Beating is more common among blacks in the US, and their adults are not better off for it.

There are so many things wrong with that statement.

1) What makes you say beating is more common among blacks in the US?
2) More common among blacks in the US that who where?
3) How do you know their adults are not better off for it?
4) Who compiles statistics on the turnout of children who were spanked?
5) What are you trying to imply about blacks in the US?