urheme:




I can't just believe this guy, you mean you cited all these bible vs and could not drive home your point
You must be very tired

Let us use labour as example.

What did your Bible say that caused women painful labour during child birth

That eve was coursed for eating apples and by implication all women should labour to the point of death to birth children...

Pls try and understand op, he did a good job to this topic......the muslim woman, budahist, ife amd my towm juju worshippers who also experience painful labour...do you expect them to believe that eve eat apples and that transfers sins to them.....what about the female animals....perhaps some female animal was coursed for their sake.


The lies in your bible can actually be retified with the truth.

johnydon22:
[b]Many here won't deny having grown up being taught that their very humanity itself is a sin.

That their nature as humans have been contaminated by the action of Adam and Eve in Eden and so their very nature as humans is a sin and broken, lost and weak and therefore needs to be saved..

This basic Christian doctrine has created an imaginary problem, have convinced them of bearing the guilt of an imaginary crime by two fictitious people they know nothing about and so must require an imaginary act of salvation in order to make it to an imaginary paradise..

We have been taught that God is the father at the same time taught to fear, cower in awe in the face of this Father figure.

"Father, i am not worthy to be your son, i am broken and weak and is short of your glory but father forgive me and accept me because i have been a sinner since i was born. please father let your will be done in my life, take full possession of me and do with my life what ever you will even though am not worthy"

This is a prayer line used to address a father figure, to this i will call a pitiable show of self degrading other than humility..

And again am sure none of us here will ever have our children talk to us in that format, anyone who expects such mode of address from his Children has a chronic self righteousness, abject narcissism, huge egoism and outright disturbing figure..

People have been convinced that they are a sinner from birth and therefore are not worthy...?

To this i call a complete arrant nonsense...

It is amazing how people cannot find the disturbing idea of a God who bears a grudge for such a long time that it blames every generation for the actions of two people...

The alleged all powerful, all knowing and all present creator of the universe is showing a pitiable insecure childish show of bearing grudges with flimsy humans..

You do not need saving from imaginary angry Gods who is blaming you for the sin of some two naked couple who ate an apple..

You did nothing and you are not guilty of the crime of anybody not even the crimes of your immediate parents.

It is a common thing to have religious people accuse others of being sinners who deserves to be burnt in a fire for their sins.

It is ok to note that SIN in a religious sense has no weight on human morality..

Human morality as a construct of human society entails: An action that decreases individual and social human suffering and betters societal well-being, survival, justice, equality, freedom..

Going by this societal definition of human morality one cannot fail to notice that these actions are necessary for a human society to ensure continuation and a healthy social interactions because as social beings living together in a society we must indulge in mutual actions necessary for our own betterment and continuation.

An immoral act as the opposite of morality is An action that INCREASES individual and societal human suffering and is a detriment to societal well being, justice, equality, survival and freedom..

Going by this definition one cannot miss to discern that Armed Robbery is a societal vice because it increases the suffering of the victim.

Government officials looting a country is a societal vice because it increases the societal suffering of the community.

Boko haram or any group wreaking havoc on a community is a societal vice because it is a detriment to societal well being and increases individual and societal suffering..


But the religious idea of sin are simply actions that goes against the stipulated ethics or doctrines of the said religion or the so called "will of God" that may or may not be in relation to a societal moral action.

E.g: In the catholic Church, Missing Mass on sunday is a sin against God..
In islam eating pork is a sin
And in a wide margin being Human itself is a sin in fundamental Christian doctrine of original sin.
Not believing in God is also a sin

I don't understand how muhammed having sex with a 9 year old Aisha is not a bad thing in Islam or beheading others in the name of God is not wrong but God frowns at what two grown adults decides to do with themselves or what i eat..

So you see, these ideas of sin has no weight on the moral tilt of an action, it doesn't matter if your actions are of a good tilt or not you are a sinner none- the less.

So do not fret when accused of being a sinner as long as your actions are of no detrimental effect to others or the society...

This is the exact question i asked a preacher girl who accused me of being a sinner when she learnt i don't believe the God she believes..

"Am i a sinner because i don't live a moral and ethical life or because i don't believe the God you believe ?"

My actions are for humans not deity and so the effect of my actions on fellow humans and the society is all that matters to me not whether a deity likes it or not..

when we realize that an action is neither good or bad just because a religion says so either with the charge of "Thus says the lord" or not, we will learn to employ our reason and independent thinking in determining our actions towards each other..

-We are neither fallen or weak

-Our humanity is not a crime or sin

-we are not to be blamed for the actions of some fictitious couple who ate an apple.

-We have no need to be saved from angry deities who won't mind their business, we are the only ones who can offer ourselves and our children salvation by choosing to better the planet we live in.

-And most importantly we do not need forgiveness from angry Gods, we only need forgiveness from each other..

Live your life for you and your actions in respect to others around you and the society that binds us all and not an obligation to a God or religion or a means to an end to bypass punishment or get a reward..

Nobody is born a sinner or inherited the sin of Adam and eve and it's time people realized that..
[/b]

Pr0ton:
So I felt I might find this interesting...

He said reality. There is no way you can evidently prove their existence. And scientific discoveries leave no realm for having two probabilities (a) They might have existed. b) they might never have existed) For example, your Y-chromosome, that every living thing descended from paternally, dates back to about 334 thousand years ago; too long for the biblical 6,000 years of human creation.

Homo sapiens have lost the ability to produce their own vitamin C through evolution/mutation, while some other primates like the monkeys can produce this. The lack of vitamin C is a serious problem to us humans as we are prone to this severe disease called scurvy; too illogical of a loving God's creation.

All these befall non human animals too. Does that make them also need a saviour to help them out?

And the coloured words show you're confused yourself. If it isn't mysterious why should a mysterious God intervene to it mysteriously?

This isn't in the subject of the OP. It's not necessary.

Then as one man's trespass led to the condemnation of all men... Rom 5:18

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners... Rom 5:19

When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who waswith her, and he ate it. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. Gen 3:6-7

What is being gotten twisted there?

Anything that puts enmity between a person and God.

Well.. You can accurately define morality when the concept of its relation to human life is understood. And it can be understood, glaringly and apparently. You won't still get this untill you dip yourself into a stream and cool your hot head, then start thinking like a normal human.

So far your religion has been the most subject.. Are you saying your religion can be dismissed but others should be considered?

Apparently he does. You just need to cool your hot head and read calmly and clearly. He said that in relation to the eventual claim of the existence of Adam and Eve, God, Judgement and all.

You are biblically confused again.. Haha

Well I showed you this earlier on; about your Bible making such claim.

Believers.

Actually yours is. Ours can be felt, utilized and observed. Yours is only imagined and therefore irrelevant.

Because your God doesn't exist.

Both are obvious.. The former brings peace, the latter avoids it.

gentlii:

Some posts are worth quoting.

Kudos to the brain behind this. Nigeria would have gone far with 10% of such mind.

urheme:
.

Image123:


i was actually referring to his remark of an "imaginary PROBLEM", the problem of sin is not imaginary, it is the problem the whole world is experiencing, the wars, the diseases the starvation etc. These are all products of sin(wickedness, selfishness, inability to forgive, lies, greed etc).

On your concerns, no one can disprove their existence either.

The 'joy' of the christian or the 'religious' is the option of the supernatural, miracles.

what dor Scientific blah blah know no such realms.

You are prone to scurvy because of sin, not because of God. It befalls all because man is the crown of creation. The rot is from the top-down, make sense? i said people's predisposition to evil, to cheating, lying, anger, selfishness and other such vices is not mysterious. It is something anyone can observe. You don't need brilliance or genius or esoteric stuff to see it.




How can it be unecessary when it puts in the context and address the core of what the OP is saying and assuming. God is not just a Father so the OP and others should not get things twisted, God is also the Creator, the Judge, the Owner and the Lord of all. Satan is the father of sinners. The Bible is clear on those who are sons/children of God.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:






of course BY it, it led to it. They are two sides of a coin. Bring in the two sides of the coin. If you bring in one side, and i bring in one side, don't accuse me of been wrong, i didn't conclude, you did. You will be punished for your sins, not for the sins of some two guys. If it was for some two guys, then i will also be punished, or so the belief goes, right? You will face judgement for your own sins.



The Bible says nothing about any two Unclad couple who ate an apple. Anything wrong with your comprehension?




Good definition. That definitely has weight on morality. God the Father and Creator has a say and more than on the definitions of morality.

i take it you live in a bubble. Our constitutions and laws have no DEFINITION, that is why they keep getting changed and amended. Where is the accuracy in definition when the lower courts can say something different from the so called higher and supreme courts, when the court decisions today are different from that of 20years ago or 10years later. When our house of assemblies are sorry about previous decisions or when two judges using the same references have differing judgements? How can you accurately define morality when crimes with death sentences are no more with such sentences and may be tomorrow, or when each state has their different laws or what used to be criminal is no more more criminal and vice c=versa. Who is the accurate one, the present, the past or the future? Where is the framework and the mark that we are progressing towards(i know your best answers will trend towards making progress etc), so when and how do we know we have gotten there glaringly and apparently? Or do you still think we have gotten there? How do you know, and should there be further adjustments and amendments, how do you react?

Evidently, he doesn't. He says we are neither fallen or weak. That is the height of delusion. Anyone who sees nothing wrong with the human race needs a lot of help.

How? Being human is not a crime or a sin.

The Bible makes no claim of any couple who ate an apple.

Everybody is a believer in context. You BELIEVE there is no God

i believe in Jehovah God, many others believe in million other things. Christian believers don't care about angry deities who won't mind their business

How can my opinion be irrelevant when we have billions of people all over the world and through out all generations seeking for forgiveness from deities? Do you know what you are saying at all?

Image123:

Oh yeah, and this is not january 2016, tell me another joke.

The realization that nobody is born a sinner brings peace? i believe you meant to spell "piss". Tell me, the peace you have or had that i have not had. Millions of people will continue to attest forever that they found peace in and with God, after they realized all have sinned and repented of their sins.

Pr0ton:

I tried showing you how this is a normality of life as it befalls non-human animals too. You made mention of it down there, so I'll attend to it there too.

Someone limited in the knowledge of Mathematics may tell you 2 + 2 is 5. The only way you can accept or disprove this is to work it out to see if it's actually 5. And when you look it up and analyse it you see that it equals 4, and so the 5 he said was wrong. What am trying to say is you can get the actuality of something by analysis, rational thinking and test.

In the case of Adam and Eve, their existence is only put in words without proof to substantiate them. The Bible only tells their story and claims it happened. Again, the only way you can accept or disprove it actually happened is by analysis, rational thinking and test. Here we go..

The Biblical cosmological age is around 6,000 yrs when calculated from the first day of creation to the century we are through calculated years from Adam to his descendants to the ending of the OT and the additional 2016AD inferred from the NT. Then it claims that the earth and human are 6,000 years old. However, there are undeniable radiocarbon dating that estimates the age of the earth alone to a figure far greater than the Biblical age. This is science. Not a trick. It's the same way science tells you that if you inhale too much smoke from combusting engines you'll get a brain damage and a clogging in your blood stream and you believe, it's also the same way it tells you about the age of the earth - no trick, but explanation of fact.

Knowing that, we can reasonably conclude that Genesis and everything in it is a fabrigation, lie and not a reality because it is evidently disproved by science (study of facts)

One more blow... Their existence can't be proven.

Those are illusion.. An intentional option to opt in for something above the natural (imagination/assumption)

Of course.. You can't get into a realm that doesn't exist.

Now from here, because the rest of this post in next quote is based on the sin of Adam and Eve and their existence, then the fact that this story can't be proven true and the proof of their non existence can't be disproved renders it a fallacy and need not be argued about!

How foolishly ignorant! You can't compare the concept of morality with the definitions (whether constant or not) of laws and constitutions. It has been prevailing facts that the breeze makes you feel cool, that bright powerful light seems dangerous to focus your eyes on, that food cures hunger, that a genuine smile is positive, that you feel pain from an injury etc etc These are not necessarily definitions but concepts expressed in words. If the sentence of a particular type of crime has been changing and will continue to change it does not change the act from being a crime. It's still a crime and it is wrong. Morality is all the words you can pull together that collectively points to "An action that decreases individual and social human suffering and betters societal well-being, survival, justice, equality, freedom.."

Morality entire meaning can not be prone to changes than the feeling you get from injuries be prone to a feeling different from pain.

I have told you before that he said that in relation to the eventual claim of original sin, not because he doesn't think human race doesn't have a "problem". There is no real problem here. It's natural.

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me Psalm 51:5

What is man, that he can be pure? Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous? Job 15:14

I beg you explain this.

Believeing (secular) is different from having a belief (religious). The latter are the believers I'm talking about; the religious.

Why do you seriously care about repentance and salvation then?

If billions of people believe that using an umbrella on a cool non-sunny day is ideal, it doesn't change it from being irrelevant.

Pr0ton:


Of course.. January 2016 does not exist. It's a human term for times and seasons.

Tell me, what do you seek for in repentance and prayer to God? Isn't it the same 'not sinful' realization you ignorantly underestimated there?

Image123:

Okay, so if it happens to everybody, then it is not a problem? Your friend the OP said it was IMAGINARY, let's remember that too.

No one can disprove their existence either. You have yet to disprove it.

Carbon dating and co is largely guesswork and agreed assumption. Don't be deceived.

At least, thank God you know that there is something ABOVE the natural. We call it miracle.

Perhaps. however, the world of the supernatural exists and is attested to by many learned people over thousands of years and generations, races and tribes, languages and states.

The fallacy here is the folly of atheism.

Who or what makes this determination or rule on what can be compared and what cannot be? You are comparing breeze, powerful light and food to morality, but i should obey a certain rule that cannot compare the concept and definition of morality?

Crimes and acts have been changing everywhere, are you on this planet? Are you aware gay marriage used to be a crime but no longer a crime in some places for instance?

So if something is natural, it is not a real problem? Where do you get these silly ideas?

This doesn't show or prove that being human is a crime or a sin. i am human and i am not a sin or a crime.

i beg you to show me where the Bible makes claim of any couple who ate an apple.

You have a belief that there is no God, no hell, no heaven.

Because i need it, and so do every other human being.

You say IF. If that happened, it will be relevant, except you don't even know the meaning of the word.

Image123:

Who stated otherwise?

Tell me, the peace you have or had that i have not had. Millions of people will continue to attest forever that they found peace in and with God, after they realized all have sinned and repented of their sins.

kiddie:
I've got this burden I would like to share johnydon do you believe in voodoo

Pr0ton:

If ever at all it's gonna be a problem it'd not be more than a natural one; a normality of life. Every living thing struggles for survival and this has evolved different relationships among living things of which parasitism is one, which you tag evil. Parasitism is not evil, but rather a way of life.

Again dummy, he said it was imaginary in relation to the eventual claim of the reality of original sin.

I have. It's you not wanting to drop your belief that's making you go dim wit and blind to see the flaws in it and how satisfactory I have disproved their existence with biology and geology.

It's very wrong to use "largely" as to guess work, that is, if ever there is. Radiometric dating is analysed and calculated, not guessed. As to assumptions, its assumptions are more reasonable and verifiable when compared to the outrageous claim (and ridiculous assumption) of the earth created in six days, in a day specifically, land, when the existence of strata and sediments make it an implausibility.

Bonehead! I never agreed there was anything above the natural. I was playing along with your
stupidd notion of accessing the supernatural through illusion and delusion so you could understand how you've been for long sounding like an idi0t with too low brain for comprehension as even provably shown in that post ^^^. Play stupidd again...

How can you access something above natural?? It's not possible. Your senses recognize some things in the natural world and do not have the ability to recognize anything beyond the natural because they do not exist. The only attestation you and those mor0ns are making lies on the power of imagination, efficiently powered by delusion and hallucination, the brain can produce. And imaginations are imaginations. They are not real.

... for not believing a ridiculous and incredible story? You are the one apparently out of your senses here.

I expect this comprehension of morality should be a problem for people without common sense. And it's sadden that you've shown ample evidence for being one of these people. So I think this is how it's gonna be. You are not fortunate to grasp the concept of morality and it's your intentional problem.

Does the acceptance of the practice of fornication in nonreligious society makes it a no-longer-immoral/sinful practice in the Bible? Is fornication naturally immoral? No. You believe it is because the Bible says so. This an intervention of religion making its own rules, for those who choose to follow.

Gay is a crime for those who say it is. It's not for those who say it's not. It's moral because it doesn't affect your fvcked life.

It is not. I'll say it a thousand times if you want.

It does. They point to your nature being sinful - all humanity is sinful.

What about the verses I quoted for you??

Anything you call it as long as it doesn't beget worship, ritual and those stuff that differentiate it from being religious.

This is a statement that doesn't go beyond text - a fallacy.

Oh GOD! Don't tell me you are this worse in English language. I'd love to see your explanation for saying that.

Pr0ton:


You brought it up being a straw-man trick for me thinking I'd say Jan does exist and so does God. But you weren't smart enough as the trick was used against you, loser.

There is no sense there.