GOD AND JAZZ: Hi y'all, I’m Tolutope. Help me out here.

People believe in ‘Mammy Water’ and ‘Ogbanjes’ and what have you and they sure do exist. But why don’t they believe there is a God in heaven or Jesus is his begotten son?

Help me out people …

There's no definitive evidence to prove the existence of any of the 'beings' you listed...

if no evidence the why find bodies in okijs shrine? why clifford sells bodyp[arts? why was a snake found wit pictures in its belly? why do we hear of witches or see things mysteriously happen.. dont foole urself.. if there r no witches and demons then there is no God.cos dey are all spiritual.. so u cant say there is God and no demons or spirits.... open ur sense and ur ears and ur eys ... its all happenin around u.. even whites recognise ogbanjes and spirits... remember exorcist?

Because those people that are buying the body parts and using them in rituals also think the spirits are real. The priests are criminals and they have no qualms about kiling innocent people just to make their clients believe that what they are doing is real.

tolutope:

if no evidence the why find bodies in okijs shrine? why clifford sells bodyp[arts? why was a snake found wit pictures in its belly? why do we hear of witches or see things mysteriously happen.. don't foole yourself.. if there r no witches and demons then there is no God.because dey are all spiritual.. so u can't say there is God and no demons or spirits.... open your sense and your ears and your eys ... its all happenin around u.. even whites recognise ogbanjes and spirits... remember exorcist?

Exactly!

tolutope:

if no evidence the why find bodies in okijs shrine? why clifford sells bodyp[arts? why was a snake found wit pictures in its belly?

you find bodies in okijs shrine because okijs believes in a god and thinks killing people as sacifice to the god is proper. just like christians believe in G=-d and do their rituals (prayer and recitations or whatever).

clifford sells body parts because
1. he's retarded
2. he wants to make money the easy but risky way. hehe same reason armed robbers break into people's homes for loot.
   

the snake was found with pictures on it's belly because some smart guy drew the pictures on there.

i don't think these are evidence of witchcraft do you? 

tolutope:

why do we hear of witches or see things mysteriously happen..

i hear of witches because you and some brainwashed Nigerians keep talking about them  . .witches witches witches! witches are always doing you guys!!!!!

if you mean "mysterious" as in "oh-my-God-he-just-turned-into-a-frog!!  " then sorry  . i'm yet to see "things mysteriously happen".

tolutope:

.. if there r no witches and demons then there is no God.because dey are all spiritual.. so u can't say there is God and no demons or spirits....

you're correct  . there are no witches and demons and there is no God. because they are all in the imagination and are beliefs.

tolutope:

... its all happenin around u.. even whites recognise ogbanjes and spirits... remember exorcist?

why? Because "some" whites recognize it proves it's validity? (whatever whites says is true?) how about those whites that don't recognize it?. 

do i remember exorcist? you mean the movie? someone told me it was boring. 

WesleyanA:

you find bodies in okijs shrine because okijs believes in a god and thinks killing people as sacifice to the god is proper. just like christians believe in G=-d and do their rituals (prayer and recitations or whatever).

It's called prayer.

WesleyanA:

the snake was found with pictures on it's belly because some smart guy drew the pictures on there.

Pictures were found inside the belly of the snake.

WesleyanA:

you're correct  . there are no witches and demons and there is no God. because they are all in the imagination and are beliefs.

WESLEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why is a snake found with pictures in it's belly? For goodness' sake, because it swallowed the pictures!

Isn't that so obvious? you don't know that snakes sometimes swallow various objects?

Seun:

Why is a snake found with pictures in it's belly? For goodness' sake, because it swallowed the pictures!

Isn't that so obvious? you don't know that snakes sometimes swallow various objects?

Snakes always swallow stuff entirely. They don't chew their food.
Of course some rather turn to the supernatural than to natural explanations. Usually because they have either not been introduced to the natural evidence or because their limited logical capabilities makes the natural argument too difficult to swallow. Even when there is no natural explanation for a phenomenon, you can always do the wise thing and say: I don't know instead of making up a supernatural explanation.

Look, maybe I should do a moon dance every night at 6. Saying that my moon dance makes the moon appear every night. Makes sense, doesn't it? After all, the moon appears every time I do my moon dance. And if it doesn't appear because it's too cloudy, I'll say that you all made the gods angry. You should sacriffice a goat, let the blood wash away your sins. Don't forget to bring the meat to the high priest (me) afterwards. After all it was me who saved your soul from eternal torment.

We understand the fact that some people ignorantly practise what's not real. But then, evil spirits are real. Even the proclaimed Bishop David Oyedepo, the pastor of a church with the largest single auditorium in the world, once had a personal encounter with a witch which he narrated in his book, "Towards mental exploits".

well i guess since there is noGod or spirits.. u all must be genetically created.. i wonder why u guys havent evolved into smthin else or has anythin else?

tolutope:

well i guess since there is noGod or spirits.. u all must be genetically created.. i wonder why u guys havent evolved into smthin else or has anythin else?

What are you trying to say? I don't understand your argument.

tolutope:

well i guess since there is noGod or spirits.. u all must be genetically created.. i wonder why u guys havent evolved into smthin else or has anythin else?

you don't know what evolution is do you? evolution is a slow (gradual) process. it just doens't happen overnight okay.
and it is occuring:

we're (including you)significantly  taller than humans of 500 year ago.
we have a higher mortality rate


and i find this interesting.
Like the first and second molars, wisdom teeth evolved in early humans to grind food to a texture that made it safe to swallow. The three molars created a large, effective chewing table that suited the diet and lifestyle of 20,000 BC.
Along with lifestyle, our diet has evolved. The tough, raw food foraged by prehistoric man has been replaced by cooked and processed food. With further evolution, wisdom teeth may disappear altogether.

meaning humans might evolve to have only 30 teeth because we don't need those last two anymore. that's why when yoy've grown all your teeth. it takes a while (ages 17-25) for those last ones to appear. later they won't appear anymore.

that's a simple example of evolution for you

Wesley, you're talking based on what you were taught at school. Remember, these scientists that bring up these trash don't also believe in God. (only few of them do).



_{I wonder why no one said anything about my post}

I can now understand why western countries provide free education for everybody and make it compulsory up to a particular level. If you don't educate people up to a level, they won't be able to make informed decisions - instead, they will make decisions based on superstitions and false beliefs which may be harmful to the nation as a whole. Wow!

goodguy:
Even the proclaimed Bishop David Oyedepo, the pastor of a church with the largest single auditorium in the world, once had a personal encounter with a witch.

Goodguy, this man is a full-time bishop. Why won't he have personal encounters with witches and wizards?

goodguy:
Remember, these scientists that bring up these trash don't also believe in God. (only few of them do).

And remember, most of the people that claim to have experienced the supernatural are people who make a living from it ...

goodguy:

Wesley, you're talking based on what you were taught at school. Remember, these scientists that bring up these trash don't also believe in God. (only few of them do).
_{I wonder why no one said anything about my post}

I'm affraid you have no idea what you're talking about. Can you explain the evolution theory? if you can, can you tell us what's wrong with it?

And what's trashy about the theory of evolution?

western education.... ... all good... reality of life.... another thing.... study the universe and ull find out it didnt all come together to form one piece of master piece.. be realistic... we r more than just evolution...

Seun:

Goodguy, this man is a full-time bishop. Why won't he have personal encounters with witches and wizards?

So why then were you denying the existence of witchcraft in the other thread ??

nferyn:

I'm affraid you have no idea what you're talking about. Can you explain the evolution theory? if you can, can you tell us what's wrong with it?

And what's trashy about the theory of evolution?

I don't think I owe any explanation to that. It's self explanatory. If you don't understand it, keep reading till u understand.

tolutope:

be realistic... we r more than just evolution...

Now this is what I call SENSIBLE. It's just the plain truth!

goodguy.. u referrin to moi

No I wasnt. Sorry I modified my post before reading yours.

goodguy:

So why then were you denying the existence of witchcraft in the other thread ??

Seun was being sarcastic in his post. don't misinterprete him. what he meant was that Bishops and Pastors "have personal encounters" with witches because they are at the top of the dissillusioned and brainwashed. they are the ones who promote the belief in witches so when they say they've seen witches doesn't mean they saw it . they say it so that you will belief it.

but then on the other hand, they might have seen it in their dreams (imaginary).

be realistic... we r more than just evolution...

evolution is not an animate thing or object. WE ARE NOT EVOLUTION! WE ARE GOING THROUGH EVOLUTION. meaning human are changing everyday even though the change isn' significant. we are not the same people we used to be thousands of years ago. we are more developed and are smarter than primitive humans. thousands of years from today, humans will likely not be the same as we are. they would have changed too.

another  very simple example of evolution:
in those years when humans had to wander to survive naked and didn't really have "homes" we were hairy (literaly). the hair on our body then was to protect us from the harsh weather and enviromental conditions since no one was smart enough to make clothes then or  whatever it is. gradually, as we developed, we find alternative means to protect ourselves through clothings, e.t.c so we didn't need much bodily hair anymore and we lost it through evolution.

you guys should read Origin of Species by Charles Darwin.

this book has been a root of controversy for a long time now. It's been banned in the south i think but then who can blame them, they are just stupid conservatives who probably still believe in black slavery.

you should also read about the theory of Natural selection (survival of the fittest).

I don know how anybody can live in nigeria and deny d existence of withcraft. witches and wizards r real. i believe in God and i know though i can't pin point d exact place but witches were mentioned which means they existed back then. theyr sorta like d instruments of d devil. if any nigerian sayz dat they don't exist then expalin how d blood money happens!! I've seen a real Wizard b4 though he waz a christian when i met him and he talked about his life as a wizard. if u say witches r just a fragment of our imagination then o well u still got a lot to learn about da real world.
When i waz in nigeria i used to listen to diz program IRIRIAYE by Lola Olawuyi and if u listen to it then u gon know they exist.
I go to MFM and let me tell durin d deliverance whoa!! some stuff be happening and peeps be sayin stuff!!

i meant Kola Olawuyi!

damygurl.. i guess a lot of people think charles darwin is d answer to all explanations,,, has any1 thot for a moment how is it possible for everything in this universe 2come from one cell and then it EVOLVED into everything we see? :- hellllooooo..... doesnt it sound.......?. think for a moment flowers ,animals, galaxy, moon stars all uniform, everything seems calculated and proprtionate and uniform.. and it just so happen that they evolved...? duh?

tolutope:

western education.... ... all good... reality of life.... another thing.... study the universe and ull find out it didnt all come together to form one piece of master piece.. be realistic... we r more than just evolution...

Of course we are [b]more [/b]than just evolution. That does not invalidate evolution in the slightest. What is your point?

tolutope:

damygurl.. i guess a lot of people think charles darwin is d answer to all explanations,,, has anyone thot for a moment how is it possible for everything in this universe 2come from one cell and then it EVOLVED into everything we see? :- hellllooooo..... doesnt it sound.......?. think for a moment flowers ,animals, galaxy, moon stars all uniform, everything seems calculated and proprtionate and uniform.. and it just so happen that they evolved...? duh?

Please, try to inform yourself first on what the evolution theory actually is before talking about it.
The theory [/b]of evolution is a [b]scientific [/b]theory that explains the [b]fact [/b]of evolution and the [b]diversity of species we see today on our planet. It does not speak about the origin of life. Nor does it not speak about the origin of our universe. These things are outside the scope of the theory of evolution.

The theory of evolution is perfectly capable of explaining the diversity, proportionality and beauty of the living world.

Please read:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/
and
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
before forming any opinion about a subject you have little understanding about

WesleyanA:

Seun was being sarcastic in his post. don't misinterprete him. what he meant was that Bishops and Pastors "have personal encounters" with witches because they are at the top of the dissillusioned and brainwashed. they are the ones who promote the belief in witches so when they say they've seen witches doesn't mean they saw it . they say it so that you will belief it.

but then on the other hand, they might have seen it in their dreams (imaginary).

Why don't u wait for Seun to explain himself? As for ur other comments, I've got nothin to say to you since you neither believe in God nor the existence of the devil.

damygurl:

if any nigerian sayz that they don't exist then expalin how d blood money happens!!

Exactly!! Tell it to them gurl!. I guess none of them (wesley, seun, nferyn) has any explanation for this..!

I have only seen witches in films so I can’t say whether they exist or not. I can’t possibly support/go against the existence of what I know nothing about. But whether they exist or not, I want to be unconscious of it.

I certainly believe in God though I’ve never seen him. I choose to believe him. It is my choice. If he exists, I have nothing to lose by believing but much to gain and if he doesn’t exist, I still have nothing to lose. So to be on the safer side, I choose to believe him.

Godguy and damygurl, have you actually seen this blood money? Or are your beliefs based on hearsay and Yoruba/Nollywood/Christian movies which portray these things?

Bloodmoney is a normal currency achieved through ritual means, so no one can possibly tell if the money u're holding is bloodmoney or not.

Seun:

Or are your beliefs based on hearsay and Yoruba/Nollywood/Christian movies which portray these things?

Things that we see in Nigerian movies are mostly portrayals of what happens in real life. We see people that confess to have been in a cult and have been spending blood money. (I know you will argue that it could be due to psychological disorders/illusions or some trash). OK, tell me, why has kidnapping been rampant since the introduction of the N1000 note? Or do u think some people are just so jobless to start kidnapping innocent children for no reason? C'mon, you are Nigerian. I'm not expecting these comments from you.

The kidnappings are because our people are:
- Gullible enough to believe that such rituals can make them rich.
- Heartless enough to actually commit murder for the sake of the expected prosperity.

Suppose a man goes through such a ritual and the money doesn't come in, do you think he will report the scam to the police?

If nigeria had a better security and efficient police debt. kidnapping wouldn't be rampant.

keep in mind Nigeria is the 2nd most corrupt nation in the world. all these corrupt activities. . people don't have explanation of how a guy stuck it rich over night would blame it on witches without a second thought that he might have been involved in a corrupt and illegal practice as selling humans, armed robbery. anything you can name that goes on in Nigeria!.

see, let me not lie to you. stuff like this happened in the western countries many years ago. they just suffered a plague (bubonic plague) that wiped out a significant number of their population. they fell into a disaster and things went terribly bad. people died of sickness, many lost their jobs there was poverty and what not. people sought explanation for all what was happenign and resolved to blaming it on witches and evil spirit.
when ever a guy was sick, they would beat him up so the "evil" will come out of him. they didn't know they were only making matter worse!.
they would accuse women (the poor/ aged/divorced who had no one to stand up for them fell the usual victims) of witchcraft and burn them.

i just don't believe there's anything as "blood money". if you don't know how someone became rich overnight, ask him or use reason and logic to find out how instead of settling to the idea that he practiced "rituals and witchcraft".