From what i have come to see hear,its now believed that "empty cymbals makes the loudest noise", Tonye-T, Bobbyaf, OOLADEGBU, Recognise and their likes appear quiet and matured and when they explain they do so with points

Now i read somewhere where Tonye-t said you guys keep bringing back points he has already mentioned in details, and i know one of it has to do with why titheing is piad in monetary terms, yet you guys would not refer back or maybe you are shy and void of points, so i decided to go back and copy and paste his explanations, maybe it will soothe ya-dry souls 

And to you KunleOshow, believe me, there are some areas you dont bring, i have already said it TIME WILL TELL, i will not answer you on that again, because you may actually be a younger brother.

@ Chukwudi44,

for the little time i have had to read your comments on religion section, believe me am turned-off at the level of your knowledge, what you actually do is argue rather than oppose cleverly or discuss as it should be. I say it here time and time again that we should approach the scriptures with unbaised mindset and then can we both see the truth for ourselves. But it appears to me you just pick logics and intellect (sensual wisdom) and you pour it out maybe to win some battles i dont know like your mentor KunleOshod praised you for. 

However i'll commend you for how you replied |Gentle me| for his harsh post at you.though you had the opportunity to insult him back but then you introduced a calm attribute for the 1st time and i hail you for that.God bless you my friend and brother!

Back to the topic:

I read your writing to Oladegbu that the issue of tenthing in titheing was borrowed from the Mosaic law.do you mean to tell me Abraham who tenthed (Gen.14:20)and Jacob who tenthed (Gen.28:22) all did so because Moses told them to?, didnt they exist b4 the Mosaic law was given?. The question nobody has been able to answer me here is this: "If Titheing began with the Law, why then did Abraham and Jacob both practised it even b4 the Mosaic law was given?" Do you mean to tell me that Moses appeared to them and told them to? na wa o! we both know that this men both existed b4 the Law, so why then did they tithe.

What we guys do here is to read passages in the bible and pick it anonymously without having an indepth knowledge of how the term or phrase or word or vocabulary originated. I have sincerely explained it here that Titheing(tenthing) was never a law, it was a practise that began b4 the law and was only borrowed by the mosaic dispensation to explain a point. The Law is a different thing altogether from standards(tenthing for example). Standards are trails that have always existed, while Law is a document that binds how this standards should be practised.Do you understand?Make research for yourself.ok!

You also said there wasnt any place that introduced money as a model for titheing, Yes you're right, but then you are very wrong because if you understand the full significance of tenthing beleive me you'd rather stick to just giving money. How i mean:, In Gen.14:20 - it said "and abram gave him a tenth of ALLafter he(abram) had returned with spoils from a great battle, now i ask , doesnt something ring a bell in your brain that amongst the spoils were GOLD, SILVER,DIAMONDS, GARMENTS, FINEWOODS and lots more, Chukwudi44 do you mean to tell me that you dont know that those things were the money or currency Men used back then? And again, Jacob in Gen.28:22 - Jacob said, if God would give him all that he asked for, then he would give back a TENTH OF ALL, hello? so becos Moses commanded the israelites in his era to give produce as tenths, do you mean to tell me that others never gave beyond that?

Now again let me explain a little about why it was all about crops and farm produces in The mosaic era as it appears you know little or nothing about what you're arguing about, When the Children of Israel came out of Egypt, God instructed Moses that the Israelites should not mingle themselves with any other nation as they belonged to Him(God) and Him alone lest they be defiled. Now the consequence of that instruction meant that no trading should be done by them with other nations (heathens) and as such, no essence for money, because he was to give them a portion each for every tribe of israel from the land of canaan. He knew there was no means of getting money as no trade-by-barter would exist, hence the flocks and produce would be the only means to still get them to maintain the ancestral but divine standard of tithing. this issue could create another topic if i go on and on.I wish you'll understand.

Now to the other question you asked of why titheing should be daily, weekly, monthly?, my answer to you is this, i cant find any portion of the scriptures that said i should give daily, weekly, monthly, what i find is that i should give mine from my INCREASE, now i ask my self, how often do i get increase of my seed(income) the answer is MONTHLY of course, so then i tithe monthly, now another person could decide to gather up all their increase and offer at a stipulated date.Why should it be anyone's bizness if they do so, afterall "whatever we do, we do unto God and not unto man" (scriptures says)

I'll stop here for you now 

Mr. Chukwudi44,

from the beginning i have never said titheing should be in monetary terms, i am ONLY and FIRMLY on the stands that titheing remains a practice of the new testament, as the topic of the thread suggest.because since it existed before the advent of the law it meant that titheing was a standard for covenant and not a LAW as you and other folks go about misinforming peeps here.

If you wish to pay your tithe in clothes why not, if you wish to give your tithe in agricultural produce why not, but as for me,Titheing was never a LAW but a STANDARD included in the LAW.

period!

Answer to your no.1 question is,

In the Kingdom issues, there are some issues which are of more priority than the others, like Jesus stated clearly in Matt.23:23, now when you go out to win souls to Christ do you preach to them about offerings, fasting and/or about administrative issues of the church? i ask you. But rather you tell them about the salvation Christ came to give man, you tell them about the origin of Sin and what its consequences meant for man until Christ came to redeem us, you tell them of man's eternal existence and so on and so forth. Now that is the weightier part of the Law of Christ (called Grace) without Justice, faithfulness and righteousness and such no one can get his /her soul redeem.

But when you give your life to christ, you now belong to a family (called the "Church" and where Christ is the head and God the Head of Christ, in this new family its expected that Standards, ordinaces and precepts must be followed in other for things to be in orderliness and decency like Paul mentioned. you dont just go into the church and start misbehaving and misleading hence things are kept for us to follow. Now that is where things like Offerings, Titheings,Giving, Fellowshipping, Prayers/prophesying, fasting and more comes in. All these things are meant to edifiy the church and bring us into oneness in communion.

If you read Paul's account to churches, you'll come to see that Churches were mostly practised in Homes major reasons was the persecution she received back then, later began in halls of houses, cathedrals and towers. well all that are story for anther day. so you see because the Apostles never mentioned it doesnt mean it was abolished, it was simply not a much issue to the soul as the matters of righteouness, godliness and the likes.

From the passage you quoted from Heb.7:5-18 i cant seem to find any verse not even a line relating to the abolishment of tithe, but simply the transference of ordinances by reason of the new priesthood change.

i explained it here better , just click HERE

@ Chukwudi, Jagoon and Mad_max,

Good day Friends, i saw your comments and felt i should explain what you guys claim you know but prolly dont, this is prolly what i keep saying here that the scriptures will only present itself to you the way you approach it, if biased , it will mean nothing, if prudent it will profit all things.

I promise not to argue here as its not of me to do so, but will rather give a clear breakdown of this thing called TITHE and its significance as the spirit of God gives me utterance.

What is Tithe?
TITHE
Tenths of produce, property, or spoils, dedicated to sacred use.
(from Fausset's Bible Dictionary, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1998, 2003 by Biblesoft)

Titheing before the advent/origin of the children of Israel was a CUSTOM, it was needful that for every spoil or profit anyone made, he should set apart some quota for the king, or their deity and this they did as a form of WORSHIP and this things were both practised and ritually kept by heathens. well that alone is a topic of its own.

The Origin of Tithe:

Alot of people today clearly believed that the titheing began with the exodus of the israelites from the land of egypt, the answer remains no as the concept and practise began way back Abraham and even Jacob. I will spare nothing to say that titheing was and has always remained a CUSTOM.

When Abram was blessed by the High Priest Melchizedek, He gave him one tenth of everything he gained from defeating Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him.

"And Abraham gave him one tenth of everything." [Gen. 14:20], now it was no mistake that it was only Abraham's and Jacob's adherence that got documented and later seen from the scriptures before the introduction of the law, that still never meant that it was never practised by other heathens. Later we saw Jacob in Gen.28:22 saying "And this stone, which I have set up for a pillar, shall be God's house; and of all that you give me I will surely give one tenth to you." [Gen. 28:22]

Titheing in The Law:

This is where we all get it wrong today, folks think that titheing is/was a Law, but if it was , then how come Abraham (the patriach) paid, how come the real Israel himself (Jacob) paid. If one read thru' leviticus and more, you'll clearly find that Titheing was a task, it was an obligation, it was a requirement, it was a standard and never a Law.

Now i heard someone ask what is a LAW?

A Law is a set of decree/ruling/or any piece of legistlation binding how concepts/principles/standards should be followed/administered/kept to a people.(you can prefarably post a better definition should you find one). Now if you look carefully at this definition you'll find that for a law to be called a law, some things must be in place which are the concepts and standards or traditions as others may call it. Laws in otherswords validate principles. Make no mistakes LAWS ARE NOT PRINCIPLES OR CONCEPTS OR TRADITIONS BUT THEY RATHER VALIDATE AND INERT THE LATER.do you get it? Now my standings are this:

- If titheing was a LAW or Law of Moses as some say it is, then how come the Patriachs practised it, do you mean to say that moses gave the law before Abraham was born or was Jacob in the days when Moses gave the Law.

- To buttress more further this truth, they was never a place in the mosaic law that stated Titheing as a law, rather we saw clearly statements like "NOW THIS IS THE LAW OF BURNT OFFERING ( Lev.6:9) , NOW THIS IS THE LAW OF THE CEREAL OFFERING, LAW OF THE SIN OFFERING, LAW OF THE GUILT, LAW OF PEACE OFFERING, LAW OF THE BEAST AND BIRD, LAW OF LEPROUS DISEASE, LAW OF FLUID DISCHARGE AND so on, there was never such a thing as THE LAW OF TITHEING. so why do many still say that titheing/tithe was a LAW. the first appearance of the word "tithe" in the mosaic administration was in lev.27:30 and it said "And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord's; it is holy to the Lord." Now it will not require you any bachelor's degree to understand that "the lord taught them how to administer the tithe and who owned it" and further reading of tithe gave thus also. Titheing here simply shows that it belongs to God and no body else.

- Thirdly if we still claim that it was abolished, then offerings should as well be abolished, because they were all included in the Mosaic law, why would "one law" be abolished while they other valid.answer yourself this. This alone goes to show that neither of them was a law but precepts that were included in the law of moses and thus was not abolished.

WAS THE LAW ABOLISHED?

How many of us have really taken the time to ask ourselves if any portion of the scriptures gave that the Law was abolished, to my understanding it rather said in Matt.5:17 - "Think not that i came to DESTROY the LAW . . .,i am not come to destroy but to fulfil" So where does this heretic phrase of "abolished" or "destroy" came about. To my understanding, Christ fulfilled the law in that he became all the requirements that the law for its perfection, e.g. were things like the blood, the lamp, the sacrifice, the stigma, the judgements. Ask yourself this, if christ fulfilled all concepts (not law) then why do we still give offerings, wouldnt it have been hypocritical or rather conflicting, i ask you? It is required of xtians that we clearly have the true knowledge of things as against the public views and approaches.

DID JESUS TALK ABOUT TITHEING?

The answer is yes, but then many folks say that it was spoken to rebuke hypocrites as such it does not affect us, with this i say then, who is more hypocritical, the rebuked or the self-righteous, and i ask them questions like, ok what happened to instances when Jesus rebuked Peter, James and John, are we also to say that since it was not to us, then we dont fall-a-fault there. whether it was said to the pharisees or to the disciples, it made no difference,as neither is justified without the holy spirit. In Jesus' comment and rebuke to them, he plainly and clearly stated in Matt 23:23-24

23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices — mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law — justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter without neglecting the formerNIV. Did Christ say anything like "you should have practiced the latter without practising the former? i ask you. or do you mean to say that becos he never said it to his disciples so it doesnt fall on us? ridiculous i say! if thats the argument, then read down that passage and you'll find in vs.25-26

25 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean
NIV

so because he never mentioned disciples there, means that warning doesnt wasnt to us,hmmm i see. so what applies to me are the ones he said to the disciples directly, what a twist of scriptures.! To me, if Christ 'abolished' it like you guys think, then he would have clearly told everyone to saty out of it and prolly put a hypocritical tag on it. but then the opposite was the case.

WHY IS TITHE GIVEN AS MONEY?

I personally do not tell believers to give in monetary grounds, its simply said, if you can give crops produce why not afterall in some orthodox gatherings they still give their increase of food produce and they all celebrate, but lets be sincere and unbiased here, whom among us do receive wages in these supposed agricultural produce. give your tithe in money as much as you do in offerings,simple!God cannot be deceived!

WHY DO WE GIVE MONTHLY?

Folks when do the large populace of beleivers receive the wages for their labour, is it not monthly, but then i dont find any church that says we should give monthly, if you receive yours quarterly or daily or weekly or yearly then its up to you.


Finally for sake of time, i'll answer the question you guys asked in Heb.7:5,
Quote
(5)  And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham

This passage has clearly vindicated my point, how?

remember i said it is a concept/standard, now the bible said "the levites received tithes according to how the Law commanded them to", simple. it never said " the levites received tithes as it was a law" hello do you understand? if not then i think a good grammarian should come in here and explain better

i'll stop here for now while i attend to my official duties. God bless you my friends!

just read the way tonye-t answers people back, even if for once he is wrong, i would rather choose to still learn from him

@Gentleme
We have read all the rubbish your predecessors had to say on the false doctrine of tithes and everhting as been thoroughly punctured using biblical scriptures on like pro-tithers who are fond of twisting scripture and forcing their own deluded opinion in to the bible. So there is no pint spamming this thread with all the hubris you just posted. I would give you a glaring exaple of defective reasoning from tonye -t's post.

WHY IS TITHE GIVEN AS MONEY?
I personally do not tell believers to give in monetary grounds, its simply said, if you can give crops produce why not afterall in some orthodox gatherings they still give their increase of food produce and they all celebrate, but lets be sincere and unbiased here, whom among us do receive wages in these supposed agricultural produce. give your tithe in money as much as you do in offerings,simple!God cannot be deceived!

The above highlighted is a very good good example of how fraudsters twist scripture. Where in the bible did it say tithes should be from wages talkless of asking if we receive agricultural produce as wages The glaring truth is that God in his infinite wisdom[despite the fact that people were earning wages then and money was in use] never requested tithes from wages he requested it from produce but it was our greedy gluttons who twisted it to satisfy their greed.

Tithing was not the only source of income for levites under judaism,there were also supposed to partake of the offerings and other gifts presented to the temple.

This gifts could be on daily basis and could have been anything,animal,grains,money,e.tc

Tithes never involved money and was paid once every 3 years nothing more nothing less

chukwudi44:

Tithing was not the only source of income for levites under judaism,there were also supposed to partake of the offerings and other gifts presented to the temple.

This gifts could be on daily basis and could have been anything,animal,grains,money,e.tc

Tithes never involved money and was paid once every 3 years nothing more nothing less

I decided to reply this post seeing your number of posts has gone up to 419

chukwudi44
Posts: 419

Offline

  Re: Who Says Tithing Is Not New Testamental?
« #226 on: Yesterday at 05:01:10 PM »

   

Let us consider the highlighted sentence above according to the Old Testament tithes.

"Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.  And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household , . . ." -- Deut.14:22-26


You can see clearly in verses 24-26 that If they lived too far from the tabernacle and cannot carry the tithes so far, that they should sell it and bring the money received and buy what is needed for the feast of the Lord, and rejoice with their household.  This shows that tithing of what has been produced could be sold and the money used at the feast, if the giver lived far from the place of worship, this should not be confused with the first tithes that God has given to the Levites.

Therefore, the Psalms 41:9 charlatans have no excuse of not paying tithes that belongs only to God.  Tithes belong to God and God decides how and who He gives it to.

OLAADEGBU:

Tithes belong to God and God decides how and who He gives it to.

Did u actually write the above bold part after or before you thought about the bold part of the Deut quote below

OLAADEGBU:


Let us consider the highlighted sentence above according to the Old Testament tithes.

"Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always. And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household , . . ." -- Deut.14:22-26

anonimi:

Did u actually write the above bold part after or before you thought about the bold part of the Deut quote below

After.  

Watch the videolink above "God's tithing Law!"  it sheds more light on it.

@OLAADEGBU,

thanks for your post. But em,  you forgot to explain the part I emboldened below (in red) 

OLAADEGBU:

Let us consider the highlighted sentence above according to the Old Testament tithes.

Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.  And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household . . ." -- Deut.14:22-26

I think it says the tither should eat his tithe (with his household) and rejoice before the LORD.

em, this don't sound like the customized kinda tithing being practised today

@gentle me

The weightier matters of the law like Justice and mercy were incorporated into the new covenant,there were reiterated in the letters of the Aposrtles,but no where did they ask us to tithe.

The early christians never paid tithe.Paul had to work for his own living,he was a tenth maker,he even mentioned in his letter to the thesalonians that he never received money from anyone without paying for it.

Donations under christianity were well coverd in 1cor 8,9 and 2 cor 9.No where were christians asked to tithe and nowhere in the bible were tithe paid daily ,weekly or monthly ,not even in the OT

You seem not to understand that not making mention of tithing doesn't mean it never happened. Jesus already clarified about tithing being the lighter portion of the law, in terms of what is required. Where in the NT is there mentioned that change?

Don't you think for one moment that if tithing was seen as a legal burden by Paul or any other of the apostles, that such would have been mentioned specifically and dealt with?

You of all persons need to raise as concerns in the RCC the many undue decrees that the pope and prelates have introduced to its members, most of which have not yet been kept. Members are not allowed to use contraceptives while having sexual intercourse is just one stupid burden being placed on civilized people, yet you come on this forum talking about something you have the least knowledge about.

Why not do the smart thing and tackle your own church issues before hypocritically addressing others.

I have gone through this thread at different times and at this point would like to add my thoughts as well.

I agree that the act of giving a tenth was practiced before the time of Moses i.e Abrahams giving a tenth from the spoils of war (note that he did not keep the remaining 90% for himself) or Jacob dedicating a tenth of his blessings to God (out of freewill). Tithing was made a compulsory act as part of God’s commandments to the people of Israel (as contained in the Law of Moses). The practice of setting aside a tenth of your Agricultural produce and remitting same to the Levites (or accumulating in the temple’s storeroom for subsequent distribution to the Levites) was in accordance with the Law of Moses. So we can say the practice of tithing by the Israelites after Moses was based on the Law. Tithing as practiced by modern day churches appears to be derived from the requirement of the Law of Moses as well especially when reference to Malachi 3:10 is used to justify the need for Christians to pay tithe. There is no evidence to prove that the early disciples preached tithing.

Giving is good (in whatever form) and should be encouraged, but Christians should not be coerced to giving. For me, the practice of tithing should be personal (and from the heart) as i see nothing wrong with one offering a tenth of his earnings to the Church to show appreciation to the Almighty for his goodness. The act of giving by today’s Christians appears to have been commercialized as most givers sees the act as an investment (a return is expected in the form of abundant blessings). This can be attributed to the prosperity preaching by the church.

petres_007:

@OLAADEGBU,

thanks for your post. But em, you forgot to explain the part I emboldened below (in red)

I think it says the tither should eat his tithe (with his household) and rejoice before the LORD.

em, this don't sound like the customized kinda tithing being practised today

What I was trying to bring out there was the fact that tithes could be converted into money. Let me give a panoramic view on the subject of tithes in the Bible.

Tithing before the Law of Moses: This was practiced 430 years before the law. Check this out in Gen.14:20; 28:22; Heb.7:1-11.

Tithing under the law of Moses:

Tithes Commanded in Lev. 27:30; Malachi 3:10;

5 Purposes of tithing under the law of Moses;
1. For Levites (Num.18:21-24);
2. Tithes of tithes for priests (Num.18:26; Neh.10:37; 12:44);
3. Tithes of tithes every 3 years for the poor and the ministers (Deut.14:27-29; 26:12-14);
4. To supply God's house (Mal.3:10);
5. To honour God (Prov.3:9-10).

When tithes were brought: yearly, along with all other offerings for the feast (Deut. 12:6-7; 14:22-26).

Tithes Belonged to God, not the people who paid them (Lev. 27:30-34; Mal.3:.

Where the tithes were to be brought: (2Chron.31:12; Neh.10:38; 12:44; 13:5,12; Mal.3:.

If tithes were to be borrowed: 20% interest had to be added when paid (Lev.27:31).

If it was exchanged: both the tithes and exchange must be paid (Lev.27:33).

To your specific question:There were 3 types of tithes, which were:

[list]
[li]The first tithes for Levites (Deut. 14:27; Lev.27; Num.18). This was a yearly tithe.[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]Second tithe for the individual himself and his household to cover expenses at the national feasts, so there be no excuse for not going (Deut. 14:22-26, 12:11,21). This was also a yearly tithe, though not counted as giving to others.[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]The third tithe for the Levites, the strangers, fatherless and widows. It was a special tithe for the poor, a charity tithe to relieve the sufffering of the poor neighbour (Deut.14:28-29). This was to be given every third year, so was not a burden in any degree. God more than made up for it in His blessings of prosperity on the crops and stock of the whole nation. Spread out over a three year period the yearly tax for the poor would amount to 3^1/3% of the nation's increase. It was not to be taken to the place of worship, as the other two tithes, but distributed locally as needed throughout the three years it covered.[/li]
[/list]

And to your question of how is then practised today, I will say that Believers can learn from the same passage that tithing is a clear way to demonstrate our priorities, that the Bible makes the purpose of tithing very clear, and this is to put God first in our lives.  We are to give God the first and best of what we earn.  What we do first with our money shows what we value most.  Giving the first part of our wages to God (10%) immediately focuses our attention on Him.  It also reminds believers that all we have belongs to Him.  A habit of regular tithing can keep God at the top of our priority list and give us a proper perspective on everything else we have.

Tithing in the New Testament (for obedient children of the Kingdom of God)

Jesus Christ taught it

(Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42; Compare Matthew 5:20 with Luke 18:11-12; See Matthew 10:10; Luke 10:7-8; Mark 12:13-17).

Apostle Paul taught it

[list]
[li]Condemned sacrilege, do you know what sacrilege is? find out. (Rom.2:22), robbing temples (Mal.3:8-10) and using holy things (Lev.27).[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]Teachers to be paid (Gal. 6:6)[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]God ordained support of ministers (1Cor.9:7-14; 1 Tim. 6:17-18)[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]Christians to give as God prospers them (1 Cor.16:2)[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]Melchisedec priesthood is eternal and must be supported by children of Abraham (Heb.6:20)[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]Children of Abraham in faith must walk in his steps (Rom. 4:12; Heb.7)[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]Tithing is the strong evidence of obedience and appreciation of God's blessings (Rom. 4:12; Heb.7:6-10; 1 Cor.9:7-14; 1 Tim. 6:17-18, Compare Malachi 3:8-10; Prov. 3:9-10; Gen.14:20; Deut.8:10-20). [/li]
[/list]

OLAADEGBU:

Tithing in the NT (for obedient children of the Kingdom of God)

Jesus Christ taught it (Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42; Compare Matthew 5:20 with Luke 18:11-12; See Matthew 10:10; Luke 10:7-8; Mark 12:13-17).

Apostle Paul taught it Condemned sacrilege, do you know what sacrilege is? find out. (Rom.2:22), robbing temples (Mal.3:8-10) and using holy things (Lev.27).
Teachers to be paid (Gal. 6:6)
God ordained support of ministers (1Cor.9:7-14; 1 Tim. 6:17-18)
Christians to give as God prospers them (1 Cor.16:2)
Melchisedec priesthood is eternal and must be supported by children of Abraham (Heb.6:20)
Children of Abraham in faith must walk in his steps (Rom. 4:12; Heb.7)
Tithing is the strong evidence of obedience and appreciation of God's blessings (Rom. 4:12; Heb.7:6-10; 1 Cor.9:7-14; 1 Tim. 6:17-18, Compare Malachi 3:8-10; Prov. 3:9-10; Gen.14:20; Deut.8:10-20).

Your stupidity is amazing,when christ made that stament in matt23:23 was tithe not still valid ?hadchrist died on the cross then?
till the death of christ on the cross burnt offerings and other jewish law were still in effect but all that changed when christ paid the supreme sacrifice on the cross.

Apostle paul never taught or practise tithing as a christian he actually fended for himself by making tents.

Teachers to be paid (Gal. 6:6)
God ordained support of ministers (1Cor.9:7-14; 1 Tim. 6:17-18

Has anyone on this forum said pastors should not sup[ported financialy ?all we are saying is that montary donations should be of ones own freewill as stated in 2 cor 9:7.

Melchisedec priesthood is eternal and must be supported by children of Abraham

let us assume that melchizedek tithe is still val;id,howmaby times was it paid by Abraham,did he leave any instruction that it should be continued ?

Even the levithical tithe was paid only once in 3 years

Bobbyaf:

You seem not to understand that not making mention of tithing doesn't mean it never happened. Jesus already clarified about tithing being the lighter portion of the law, in terms of what is required. Where in the NT is there mentioned that change?

Don't you think for one moment that if tithing was seen as a legal burden by Paul or any other of the apostles, that such would have been mentioned specifically and dealt with?

You of all persons need to raise as concerns in the RCC the many undue decrees that the pope and prelates have introduced to its members, most of which have not yet been kept. Members are not allowed to use contraceptives while having sexual intercourse is just one stupid burden being placed on civilized people, yet you come on this forum talking about something you have the least knowledge about.

Why not do the smart thing and tackle your own church issues before hypocritically addressing others.

I already know that you are a big fool so I won't bothger replying you

OLAADEGBU:

Tithing in the New Testament (for obedient children of the Kingdom of God)

Jesus Christ taught it

(Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42; Compare Matthew 5:20 with Luke 18:11-12; See Matthew 10:10; Luke 10:7-8; Mark 12:13-17).

Apostle Paul taught it

[list]
[li]Condemned sacrilege, do you know what sacrilege is? find out. (Rom.2:22), robbing temples (Mal.3:8-10) and using holy things (Lev.27).[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]Teachers to be paid (Gal. 6:6)[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]God ordained support of ministers (1Cor.9:7-14; 1 Tim. 6:17-18)[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]Christians to give as God prospers them (1 Cor.16:2)[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]Melchisedec priesthood is eternal and must be supported by children of Abraham (Heb.6:20)[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]Children of Abraham in faith must walk in his steps (Rom. 4:12; Heb.7)[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]Tithing is the strong evidence of obedience and appreciation of God's blessings (Rom. 4:12; Heb.7:6-10; 1 Cor.9:7-14; 1 Tim. 6:17-18, Compare Malachi 3:8-10; Prov. 3:9-10; Gen.14:20; Deut.8:10-20). [/li]
[/list]

May God forgive you for this blaspheming and the twisting of his word for evil and greedy motives.

KunleOshob:

May God forgive you for this blaspheming and the twisting of his word for evil and greedy motives.

Amin!

already know that you are a big fool so I won't bothger replying you

Cat got your tongue, huh!

Chukwudi go deal with the many diabolic issues facing the catholic church members. I am sure you're aware that the catholic church is famous for influencing its members to will property to the church. I wonder who gets all those monies? I wonder what they do with all those monies they get from indulgencies? How come you're not concerned about such spiritual slavery that exists in the Catholic church?

And don't you know that calling people who believe in God fools is far more dangerous than not returning a tithe that is holy unto the Lord? Your sin is even greater because you fail to listen to the voice of Jesus who warns you against such. Yet you have the audacity to talk on religious matters.

@bobbyaf
All those who depend on tithing to be put right with God are under a curse [galatians 3:10] and they have fallen of the grace of christ [galatians 5:4] so realistically speaking they can't be christians since they have no grace.

There is one thing i haven't really gotten from those who feel tithes still ought to be paid; and I hope i get it now:

Please;anybody who is in support of tithe payment, - Do you think that those of us who do not pay tithes are doing something wrong which God is frowning at us for?

I really need to see how u guys see us in that regard.

chukwudi44:

Your stupidity is amazing,when christ made that stament in matt23:23 was tithe not still valid ?hadchrist died on the cross then?
till the death of christ on the cross burnt offerings and other jewish law were still in effect but all that changed when christ paid the supreme sacrifice on the cross.

Hecklers called Christ worse names than that. Infact, your name calling shows that I am doing something right. Listen to what Jesus said as this passage answers all your objections "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven" -- See Matt.5:11-12. Verse 17 He went on to say "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven, but whosoever shall do them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the the kingdomof heaven." Matt.5:17-20

All that Jesus spoke of here is timeless. It aplllies to all and sundry. He came to fulfil the Law. He came to give the proper interpretation to the Moral Law. What He abolished was the ceremonial Laws by His death on the cross. He gave us one Law that will enable us to fulfil the Moral Law which was the commandment to love, for God is Love. If you have the agape Love of God in your heart you will Love God will all your heart which covers the first 4 commandments and the love of your neighbour covers the remaining 6. Love is the fulfillment of the Law and it is only through Christ that you can have that love in your heart. Remember that rich man who claimed to have kept the latter 6 commandments but failed the first 4? He had the love of money in his heart which displaced the Love of God. This is the bone of contention of many Christians today, they have the love of money (Mammon) that displaces the love of God. Tell me one person who has the love of God in his heart and will still hold his tithes with tight hands?

chukwudi44:

Apostle paul never taught or practise tithing as a christian he actually fended for himself by making tents.

If you sincerely go through the list of what Paul taught as I pointed out earlier, you will find out that Paul taught just as Jesus that true disciples must out do the scribes and Pharisees when it comes to giving. If the Pharisees were faithful in paying their 10% true disciples must be willing to give their 100% of not only money but talent, time, expertise or skill. A case study is that of the widow's mite.

chukwudi44:

Has anyone on this forum said pastors should not sup[ported financialy ?all we are saying is that montary donations should be of ones own freewill as stated in 2 cor 9:7.

Tithes is what is used in supporting the ministry of Christ. Jesus said that "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven." -- Matt.5:19 Tithes can be said to be one of the least when compared to Justice, Mercy and Faith. Matt. 23:23 and if your are campaigning against what God has ordained as His own (Mal.3:8-10), then you are on your own.

chukwudi44:

let us assume that melchizedek tithe is still val;id,howmaby times was it paid by Abraham,did he leave any instruction that it should be continued ?

Even the levithical tithe was paid only once in 3 years

The question should be "Where has a substitute programme for tithing in the New Testament been mentioned in the Scriptures."?

KunleOshob:

May God forgive you for this blaspheming and the twisting of his word for evil and greedy motives.

Leave the forgiveness of blasphemy and your so called twisting of Scriptures for God to judge. It is your duty to point out where you feel I blasphemed or twisted the Scriptures before you begin to point accusing fingers. How do you dispute the points I raised?

petres_007:

Amin!

I believe you should endeavour to teach your student on what he does not understand on the Deity of Christ, the trinity, the meaning of spiritual birth and the Infallibility of the Scriptures in addition to your staying in the amen corner.

ttalks:

There is one thing i haven't really gotten from those who feel tithes still ought to be paid; and I hope i get it now:

Please;anybody who is in support of tithe payment, - Do you think that those of us who do not pay tithes are doing something wrong which God is frowning at us for?

I really need to see how u guys see us in that regard.

Can I also ask you whether it is right to pay tax to a corrupt Government, (that's if you pay tax at all).  This same question was asked of our Lord Jesus Christ, what answer did He give to this tricky question, do you know?

OLAADEGBU:

Can I also ask you whether it is right to pay tax to a corrupt Government, (that's if you pay tax at all).  This same question was asked of our Lord Jesus Christ, what answer did He give to this tricky question, do you know?

I asked a question first of all.Please give me an honest straight forward answer rather than an answer that would require me to read meanings into something.

I notice something about your approach to answers towards people who do not seem to flow along the lines of your reasoning: You always seem to exhibit this overbearing "holier than thou" attitude; kind of like saying u believe u are the only one who does things right.    that is regarding your little clause which is meant to imply that maybe I do not pay tax. 
Anyway, I might be wrong in that assumption.

But; as regards your question concerning tax, I do pay tax(never has a month gone by that I haven't - I even get tax refunds sometimes. ).

As regards the law of the land; the law which the government enforces, it is right and my duty to pay tax.

Rom 13:1-7
(1)  Every person must be subject to the governing authorities, for no authority exists except by God's permission. The existing authorities have been established by God,
(2)  so that whoever resists the authorities opposes what God has established, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
(3)  For the authorities are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you like to live without being afraid of the authorities? Then do what is right, and you will receive their approval.
(4)  For they are God's servants working for your good. But if you do what is wrong, you should be afraid, for it is not without reason that they bear the sword. Indeed, they are God's servants to execute wrath on anyone who does wrong.
(5)  Therefore, it is necessary for you to be subject, not only because of God's wrath but also because of your own conscience.
(6)  This is also why you pay taxes. For rulers are God's servants faithfully devoting themselves to their work.
(7)  Pay everyone whatever you owe them-taxes to whom taxes are due, tolls to whom tolls are due, fear to whom fear is due, honor to whom honor is due.

Christ's answer;"Give unto Ceaser what is Ceaser's and unto God what is God's" is very simple; the government has certain expectations of the people it governs and these expectations include taxes but not exclusively.
God also has expectations of us and currently his expectations of us are to adhere to the provisions of the new covenant(which I might add,does not require/ask us to pay tithes; and this is also not exclusive).
At the time of Christ making that statement, people were expected to adhere to the provisions of the old covenant(which means they were also required to tithe;but again, this wasn't the exclusive point being referred to by the statement).


Now, i would appreciate it if you answer me with a very straight forward answer.
At least, I have been gracious enough to answer your question before you made any attempt to answer mine; which shouldn't have been. 

@ttalks
How now? Olaadegbuu has consisitently proven himself to be unable to give straight forward answers as fars as this tithing fallacy is concerned. The reason being there is no straight forward scripture to support it so he as a matter of compulsion is forced to twist and panel beat scriptures to suit his delusions. That apart i suspect very strongly that he has personal interest in this tithing scam and is probably benefitting from the filthy lucre hence his reason to support it is personal and selfish. But then again, if you try a stop a man's source of revenue he is bound to fight back no matter how dirty.

KunleOshob:

@ttalks
How now? Olaadegbuu has consisitently proven himself to be unable to give straight forward answers as fars as this tithing fallacy is concerned. The reason being there is no straight forward scripture to support it so he as a matter of compulsion is forced to twist and panel beat scriptures to suit his delusions. That apart i suspect very strongly that he has personal interest in this tithing scam and is probably benefitting from the filthy lucre hence his reason to support it is personal and selfish. But then again, if you try a stop a man's source of revenue he is bound to fight back no matter how dirty.

Hello Mr. Kunle I'm ok as always.

As regards what u said above about Olaadegbu; I'll say "Hmmmmm".
But still, let me give him the benefit of the doubt . He just might provide a straight answer.
And if he does, that would be an achievement in the camp of tithe advocates because no single one of them has ever produced a straight forward answer
in that regard.

Good day everyone,

Quote from: KunleOshob on September 22, 2009, 10:53 AM
@Gentleme
As you  are obviously on the the curse of the law of tithing i would only pray for you the see the light and receive true salvation which cannot be bought with tithes but is given to us freely through the grace of our lord and savious Jesus christ the son of the living God. However i cannot also stand by and allow fellow "christians" to continue to spread a lie using the name of christianity whilst continuosly dragging in into disrepute. It's no use trying to quote ttalks out of context as i believe we are not illeterates on this forum. He clearly said that it is glaring from scriptures that ustice, mercy and faith were incorporated in to the new covenant whilst tithes was not even contemplated beocs as the bible rightly told us in Hebrews 7: it is a weak, useless and unprofitable law.

@ KunleOshod my brother and friend,

believe me i feel quite disappointed with the way WE have almost turned this thread into a wrestling ground, simply because someone fails to see it your way doesnt mean you should call them CURSED, its really unfortunate believe me, and a man's comments are simply an expressions of HIS TRUE CHARACTER

chukwudi44:

Your stupidity is amazing,when christ made that stament in matt23:23 was tithe not still valid ?hadchrist died on the cross then?
till the death of christ on the cross burnt offerings and other jewish law were still in effect but all that changed when christ paid the supreme sacrifice on the cross.

@ Chukwudi44,

gooooosh, muct you call someone STUPID,bocs a forum grants us all the opportunity to interact doesnt mean it should be abused, OOLADEGBU may be a senior friend or brother who knows and you go al out to say this is quite immatured you know? As far as am concerned you have little or no place as regarding this topic in the first place, why? its been confirmed you're a CATHOLIC and catholics are baseless in Christianity as a faith, am not trying to be sentimental but your posts so far butresses my thoughts.

@Boobyaf, thanks bro, i read your comments so far and i must give respects, you are too much

@Ttalks and OOLADEGBU i greet you brothers, aw una dey

Back to the topic:

Where you guys are not getting it is this! i read someone say that when Jesus spoke on his rebuke to the pharisees in Matt.23:23 , he never actually meant it for the disciples, now if i may ask, do you mean to say that HE ENDORSED TITHEING FOR THE PHARISEES IN THAT STATEMENT because THEY PRACTISED THE LAW AND NOT APPROVE IT FOR HIS DISCIPLES? isnt that pathetic?,

- Even as regarding the law that you guys are condemning, Jesus christ even participated in it, If Jesus hated and abolished the law, then how come he even participated in the law and its provisions with examples listed blow:


1. He was circumcised, as did Abraham and his descendants (was it not in the OLD testament? that you guys call abolished testament) - Luke.2:21

2. He was dedicated in the temple, as did the law provided (was it not in the OLD testament?)

3. He was Baptized, as did Namaan of old under Elisha's time (was it not in the OLD testament? that you guys call abolised testament) -2kings.5

4. Even when he read, from what book did he read from (was it not from Isaiah's book of the ABOLISHED COVENANT as u guys put it)- Luke.4:17

5. He attended the passover and even practised it according to the was your ABOLISHED COVENANT says it should - Matt.26:17

and the list goes on and on safe for space and bytes.


Now this is where i have been painfully explaining to you guys that what you guys think was abolished is not actually what was abolished,

i have explained it from previous posts and would not want to do same

when next i come  i will explain better

- THE ABRAHAMIC COVENANT and its significance to we christians as regarding TITHES

- THE MELCHISEDEK PRIESTHOOD and its connection with Jesus Christ and its significxance to us christians as regarding TITHES

- THE MOSAIC COVENANT and the NEW COVENANT and its significance to us christians

- WAS THE LAW REALLY ABOLISHED ; God is no author of confusion

until then, pls lets try and control our emotions as not to end up abusing ourselves here. KunleOshod i greet you too 

Tonye-t:



- Even as regarding the law that you guys are condemning, Jesus christ even participated in it, If Jesus hated and abolished the law, then how come he even participated in the law and its provisions with examples listed blow:


1. He was circumcised, as did Abraham and his descendants (was it not in the OLD testament? that you guys call abolished testament) - Luke.2:21

2. He was dedicated in the temple, as did the law provided (was it not in the OLD testament?)

3. He was Baptized, as did Namaan of old under Elisha's time (was it not in the OLD testament? that you guys call abolised testament) -2kings.5

4. Even when he read, from what book did he read from (was it not from Isaiah's book of the ABOLISHED COVENANT as u guys put it)- Luke.4:17

5. He attended the passover and even practised it according to the was your ABOLISHED COVENANT says it should - Matt.26:17

and the list goes on and on safe for space and bytes.

Welcome from ur obvious absence Tonye.

Now get this right: None of us are condemning the law(I wonder how u could reach such a conclusion).

Also,we never said Jesus hated the law. All we've established here is that he brought it's need and relevance to and end with his death.

You ask " how come he participated in it if he abolished it?"

Well, if u have been properly going through what most of us have been saying(it's quite clear now that u haven't really done justice to that) you would not ask us that question because:

- we have repeatedly affirmed it on this thread and so many other threads that Jesus Christ was born during the dispensation of the law.
- he lived according to the precepts of the law because he had to fulfil the law.
- also, as long as the law was in force, he expected every other person there and then to walk and live according to the law.

Now, the main thrust of our argument is that:

- the law had shown in many ways than one that it would be replaced by a new covenant. And the death of Christ on the cross was the complete and total fulfilment of the law; thereby ending it(not destroying it as some of you think we imply), setting it aside, and the beginning of the new covenant.

Rom 10:4(KJV)
(4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Rom 10:4(ISV)
(4) For Christ is the culmination of the law as far as righteousness is concerned for everyone who believes.

Rom 10:4(CEV)
(4) But Christ makes the Law no longer necessary for those who become acceptable to God by faith.

Here is a commentary on the verse above:

The subserviency of the law to the gospel (Rom_10:4): Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.
The design of the law was to lead people to Christ. The moral law was but for the searching of the wound, the ceremonial law for the shadowing forth of the remedy; but Christ is the end of both.
See 2Co_3:7, and compare Gal_3:23, Gal_3:24. The use of the law was to direct people for righteousness to Christ.
(1.) Christ is the end of the ceremonial law; he is the period of it, because he is the perfection of it. When the substance comes, the shadow is gone. The sacrifices, and offerings, and purifications appointed under the Old Testament, prefigured Christ, and pointed at him; and their inability to take away sin discovered the necessity of a sacrifice that should, by being once offered, take away sin.
(2.) Christ is the end of the moral law in that he did what the law could not do (Rom_8:3), and secured the great end of it. The end of the law was to bring men to perfect obedience, and so to obtain justification.
This is now become impossible, by reason of the power of sin and the corruption of nature; but Christ is the end of the law. The law is not destroyed, nor the intention of the lawgiver frustrated, but, full satisfaction being made by the death of Christ for our breach of the law, the end is attained, and we are put in another way of justification.
Christ is thus the end of the law for righteousness, that is, for justification; but it is only to every one that believeth.
Upon our believing, that is, our humble consent to the terms of the gospel, we become interested in Christ's satisfaction, and so are justified through the redemption that is in Jesus.

All we need to do is to believe in Christ and we are justified. We do not have to perform any requirement of the law to be justified before God.
All we need to do is believe in Christ and live according to the provisions of his new covenant.
The need for the law of Moses has been taken care of by Christ. Our righteousness is in him since he fulfilled all the requirements of the law.

So, no more adherence to an ended law by Christians.

ttalks:

Welcome from your obvious absence Tonye.

Now get this right: None of us are condemning the law(I wonder how u could reach such a conclusion).

Also,we never said Jesus hated the law. All we've established here is that he brought it's need and relevance to and end with his death.

You ask " how come he participated in it if he abolished it?"

Well, if u have been properly going through what most of us have been saying(it's quite clear now that u haven't really done justice to that) you would not ask us that question because:

- we have repeatedly affirmed it on this thread and so many other threads that Jesus Christ was born during the dispensation of the law.
- he lived according to the precepts of the law because he had to fulfil the law.
- also, as long as the law was in force, he expected every other person there and then to walk and live according to the law.

Now, the main thrust of our argument is that:

- the law had shown in many ways than one that it would be replaced by a new covenant. And the death of Christ on the cross was the complete and total fulfilment of the law; thereby ending it(not destroying it as some of you think we imply), setting it aside, and the beginning of the new covenant.

Rom 10:4(KJV)
(4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Rom 10:4(ISV)
(4) For Christ is the culmination of the law as far as righteousness is concerned for everyone who believes.

Rom 10:4(CEV)
(4) But Christ makes the Law no longer necessary for those who become acceptable to God by faith.

Here is a commentary on the verse above:

All we need to do is to believe in Christ and we are justified. We do not have to perform any requirement of the law to be justified before God.
All we need to do is believe in Christ and live according to the provisions of his new covenant.
The need for the law of Moses has been taken care of by Christ. Our righteousness is in him since he fulfilled all the requirements of the law.

So, no more adherence to an ended law by Christians.

True talk

As far as am concerned you have little or no place as why? its been confirmed you're a CATHOLIC and catholics are baseless in Christianity as a faith

The only reason I won't respond here is because I don't want to derail this thread.

If you want us to discuss about catholicism and it's contribution to christianity create another thrtead for it.

this thread is strictly for tithes

Tonye-t:

@ KunleOshod my brother and friend,

believe me i feel quite disappointed with the way WE have almost turned this thread into a wrestling ground, simply because someone fails to see it your way doesnt mean you should call them CURSED, its really unfortunate believe me, and a man's comments are simply an expressions of HIS TRUE CHARACTER

until then, pls lets try and control our emotions as not to end up abusing ourselves here. KunleOshod i greet you too [/color][/font]

My brother i did not mean to insult him by that statement i was only trying to warn him that he is placing himself under a curse by practising tithing based on law which your popular Malachi 3:10 is derived from. The bible is quite clear on that as evidenced in the passage below:

Galatians 3:10:

10 But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God’s Book of the Law

@Tonye-t
Since you plan to twist tithing into Abraham's covenant, let me quickly remind you that Abraham's covenat with God had absolutey nothing to do with tithes but circumsision. Also there is no biblical evidence that the tithes he gave melchizedek had a religious angle to it as tithing was a custom then in the babylonia area [pagans also practised tithing then] were abraham came from. Also note that Abraham even gave more [The remaining 90%] to the king of Sodom who was not even a priest and Abrahams reason for giving out everything is clearly stated in the bible which were purely egoistic as he didn't want any body to say he became rich through war booty. In the same vein would you say the King of Sodom [pagan king] is greater than Melchizedek since Abraham gave hime more of his booty Just pondering