shadeyinka:


Hm!
The key to the question postulated is time!
There is really nothing like an absolute time t=0 like in temperature where we can have T=0K. This means that time can be extended even beyond the big bang. It is actually more convenient to speak in terms of time difference rather than absolute time in physics.

Time should exist before the Big Bang.

You also say the just before the big bang, space do not exist.
This is difficult to comprehend because space means emptiness. ..If there was no space, where then is the universe expanding to.

Space had always been infinite in size.

With reference to Newtons second law, just before the B- Bang, the singularity must essentially be in equilibrium. Whatever initiated the big bang must essentially be outside the said singularity.

Note that expanding universe is measured relative to movement of objects, the assumption in physics had always been an infinite space.

Why do I use Physics, Logics and Philosophy to discuss Theism?
There exist no other platform that makes sense to the Atheist apart from these. I show them that the basic physical laws break down at some point in time. I show that there seems to be other laws different from the known laws.

Atheists want to believe that the physical laws are absolute... I show the opposite.

shadeyinka:


I gave you a pure scientific view point. Religion and the spirit rhelms are not scientific. So, its never a question of statistics. Its a knowing difficult to describe.

I am too sure of my destination

styca:


Just as it is "a knowing to difficult to describe" for you, that's how it is with the next person who does not believe in what you believe.

I admire your conviction and certainty about where you're going. Also bear in mind that the next person also has the same conviction. Even though s/he might not believe what You believed.

styca:


You're mixing things up here. There's NO Time-Space prior to the big bang.

Are we even talking about the same Space-Time continuum or the every day usage of the term time?


Though I understand your enquiry, what was before the big bang? This is what your stance is about.

It is equally naïve and incorrect to apply a physical law to a phenomenon outside of the physical. And by the way, that law only applies when we are talking about 'large' matter. At singularity, we're looking at high Energy subatomic particles. With this kind of particles all these your classical physical laws does hold.

Again Time Is a product of the BigB. There was nothing before the BigB. Everything came to be after that.

styca:

On a speculative base: If there's time before the BigB, then the following may be true:
1. THere're other universes aside from ours.

2.that the universes (in this case multiverse) are inside eaxch other. Think of Layers of onions, with our universe at the core.

3. If 1 and 2 are correct, then there will be no need to have a creator, since the laws of physics will hold true and hence give rise to the BigB.

4. And if there must be a creator, then s/he must be the laws of physics, since its through their interactions that the universe came to be.

Phew! That's pretty long. Just hope you get my drift.

shadeyinka:


If the laws of Physics are valid before the Bang, it is obvious that their must be some unaccounted force . The unaccounted force seems not part of the sum point of energy before the B-Bang.

I just reiterated that theists will call this unaccounted force from God.
What would the atheist attribute this unaccounted force to is my question!

shadeyinka:


I am sorry my Sis! How can I even imply that your post is senseless? I am sorry if that's the impression I created. I wanted to say that your post didn't have any direct relevance to the violation of the Newtons second law.

Theoretically, time should exist even before the Big Bang. The laws of Physics both Classical and Quantum should still hold. I was looking at what happened before the Bang.

My theory/ postulate is that if the known laws are valid, then it requires an unaccounted force to initiate the Bang. Isn't it possible that this initiator is God?

shadeyinka:


I perfectly agree with you.....And one of those "ridiculous" possibilities is God the creator!

Long time my Friend!

shadeyinka:


Time may not be a product of the big bang. Time is a reference that makes sense only in terms of change;. Just like displacement in the measurement of distance. If space is a product of the bang, it suggest that space is still being continually created...


I think as scientists, we hide a lot of what we don't know and understand under quantum phemomenon. Theories when not verified should not be treated as facts.

If there is a singularity, space must surround it else, the implication is that there is no singularity or the singularity fills up all available space.

However we look at it (classically or quantum) the laws of physics as we know it break down. This is frightening to a scientist: we don't even want to think about the possibility because as of now we have no alternative.



I have heard of the multiverse theory and I must confess that it is way too complicated to understand. One speculation after another till a web of matrix of laws suddenly appear.

If there is time before the bang, the obvious implication is that the known laws of physics are violated before the big bang. i.e the known laws has a time of beginning coinciding with the bang. ( this is easier to understand)

Theists will quickly agree that there are other universe (the rhelm of the Spirit or where God dwell) but I doubt if it is a consequence of time extending beyond the time of the bang.

Theists may partially agree with your second point although not as with the onion model. Theists believe that the physical universe is just a subset of the spiritual rhelm: more like a superposition of universes rather than layers. Although, I doubt if it can be directly linked to time existing before the bang.

There are facts that cannot change whatever we do:
Theists CANNOT prove the origin of God and
Atheiststic Scientists CANNOT prove what initiated the Big Bang

This make Atheists the looser if per chance they are wrong!

raphieMontella:

wait wait...
are u equating your supposed almighty god to the laws of physics?

raphieMontella:

wait wait...
are u equating your supposed almighty god to the laws of physics?

ValentineMary:

The atheist would say that they don't know and would not rush to hasty conclusions like the theist.

ValentineMary:

First of all am a guy. But actually there was no time before the big bang. Time is a factor of space, and before the big bang there was no space. So trying to use the present laws of physics to explain what might have happened before the big bang might not work well. Some theories show that the universe existed at a lower energy level before the big bang. And that can't work well with our conventional math. We need a more advanced mathematics.

Weah96:


Glad to be back. Even though I never left.

Bamidelefundz:

I like the way you try to use science to prove God regardless of any religion affiliation.The thing is the factors that start the cause of space-time to exist is currently unknown to human being due to our level of thinking and research limit. Nonetheless, we should not refer an unknown factor to be a god why?

There are facts that cannot change whatever we do:
Theists CANNOT prove the origin of God and
Atheiststic Scientists CANNOT prove the origin of consciousness

Bamidelefundz:


A factor will always have any pre-factor which is at infinity e.g number didn't start from 0. It's much easier to think of the existence of space time as circle where there is no beginning or end. I tell you this as a fact, universe can't end, because nothing can destroy matter without creating another sub matter which means all the properties of universe(space,matter and dark energy) are in existent and will always be in existence though may exist as a different particle.

Bamidelefundz:

God is not the solution to what we are looking for, we are part of origin as long as we posses matter and use space to our benefit. God is useless here unless you are telling me he is smarter than itself which is not possible. Evolvement lead to creation of any cosmos, IF human still exist in the next 10000000 years, I bet you with rate of research we are doing we will create another sub planet that looks like earth and the generation then won't even regard us present generation because most human being will turn to humanoid already having both character of normal human beings and robot. I know the reason you still stick to an unfounded entity as the one to punish you after this earth is becaus you don't want to lose the experience of chaos and order sight of things you saw while on earth thereby looking for a way to preserve the experience for eternity, sorry it's won't last more than your life time on earth. Quick question: do you give a fuvck about king Darius 2 one of the most richest man ever when he was alive?

IF human still exist in the next 10000000 years, I bet you with rate of research we are doing we will create another sub planet that looks like earth and the generation.......

shadeyinka:


Sorry to misrepresent your gender..its the Mary part of your ID the confused me. My apologies!

Can we really be sure that there was no time before the B Bang. As physicists, can we not examine whether the singularity was stable or unstable. Can we not examine what gave rise to the singularity? Time like displacement is more relevant in terms of change.

If there is no point in the universe with location x=y=z=0, then there can not be a time t=0.

Any singularity must exist in a space except if there is really either no singularity or the singularity fills the whole space. There cannot be an Absolute time t=0.

Time is a factor of EVENTS and not space. The normal laws just seems to disintegrate as one projects towards the b bang

shadeyinka:


Sorry to misrepresent your gender..its the Mary part of your ID the confused me. My apologies!

Can we really be sure that there was no time before the B Bang. As physicists, can we not examine whether the singularity was stable or unstable. Can we not examine what gave rise to the singularity? Time like displacement is more relevant in terms of change.

If there is no point in the universe with location x=y=z=0, then there can not be a time t=0.

Any singularity must exist in a space except if there is really either no singularity or the singularity fills the whole space. There cannot be an Absolute time t=0.

Time is a factor of EVENTS and not space. The normal laws just seems to disintegrate as one projects towards the b bang

ValentineMary:

Actually at the singularity there was only 1 dimension. so Y & Z 0 . So if the 3 cartesian coordinates did not exist, so did the 4th coordinate.

shadeyinka:


You know, I still wonder why Atheists find it convenient to to shut out the remote possibility that God could exist. I see it like a person insisting on understanding a computer only and strictly from the physical dimension(CPU, RAM, HDD). The fact that the Operating System and other Application Softwares can not be seen, touched or measured does not invalidate their immense importance in the "life" of the computer.

Why throw away God simply because he doesn't fit into the physical laws. As said earlier,



If consciousness can "evolve" on earth, what is the probability can earth is strictly exclusive with this nature viz the infinite nature of time. Can life only come out of our "Organic Molecules".

If we believe in complex numbers, isn't it possible that a complex conjugate of our universe exist. Are we now so "intelligent" to say that the square root of minus one is impossible? Just as we say that a spiritual world is impossible.




I agree with you on this.



Is amazing how the average western scientist is ready to believe in an alien technology far advanced and superior to ours on earth. Till tomorrow, NASA is hopping to be able to receive communication from an advanced civilization from another galaxy but yet exclude the existence of a creator.

What reinforces a Theists believe? Experience that cannot be tested in the lab but still valid. It is impossible to explain these experience away. Thosebwho have not expericed it may choose to be skeptical but it doesn't change the truth of the experience.


Would this civilization be wrong if some of them insists that they were created by the gods? Would the Atheistic ones among be correct?

If humans in future can create life, must the life look like us? Couldn't the life be like a robot with some advanced AI? If this super intelligent computers never saw any humans, how would they correctly tell the story of their evolution?

How can paranormal activities be explained from strict scientific point of view? My Bro, what we dont understand is far much more than what we comprehend about our existence and the universe.

shadeyinka:


Sorry to misrepresent your gender..its the Mary part of your ID the confused me. My apologies!

Can we really be sure that there was no time before the B Bang. As physicists, can we not examine whether the singularity was stable or unstable. Can we not examine what gave rise to the singularity? Time like displacement is more relevant in terms of change.

If there is no point in the universe with location x=y=z=0, then there can not be a time t=0.

Any singularity must exist in a space except if there is really either no singularity or the singularity fills the whole space. There cannot be an Absolute time t=0.

Time is a factor of EVENTS and not space. The normal laws just seems to disintegrate as one projects towards the b bang

shadeyinka:


A singularity cannot be linear as you have stated. It cannot also be planner. It can only be in 3 dimension with dx,dy and dz tending to zero.

shadeyinka:

Understood! However can we agree that the force may not obey the physical laws?

Bamidelefundz:

Please don't forget we still have 4th-11th dimension we are still yet to understand base on multiverse hypothesis. We shouldn't conclude yet on the basis of knowledge we possess now in other not to look foolish to the future generation to come.

shadeyinka:


A singularity cannot be linear as you have stated. It cannot also be planner. It can only be in 3 dimension with dx,dy and dz tending to zero.

shadeyinka:


The multiverse hypothesis is a hypothesis. It has no practical basis yet. If the multiverse theory is true, then our universe is just a subset of a higher universe.

Theists will call it the rhelm of the spirit

ValentineMary:

The classical
version of the Big Bang cosmological model of
the universe contains a causal singularity at
the start of time ( t =0), where all time-like
geodesics have no extensions into the past.
Extrapolating backward to this hypothetical
time 0 results in a universe with all spatial
dimensions of size zero, infinite density,
infinite temperature, and infinite space-time
curvature.

source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_singularity

ValentineMary:

The classical
version of the Big Bang cosmological model of
the universe contains a causal singularity at
the start of time ( t =0), where all time-like
geodesics have no extensions into the past.
Extrapolating backward to this hypothetical
time 0 results in a universe with all spatial
dimensions of size zero, infinite density,
infinite temperature, and infinite space-time
curvature.

source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_singularity

Bamidelefundz:

A lot of things are unknown to us human due to the level of knowledge we possess. My only argument is that we should not attribute what we don't know to any religious God because it doesn't solve any problem. It only claim everything to be mystery which is not acceptable to a normal logical mind.

Bamidelefundz:

If indeed the Rhelm of spirit exist of what use is the physical Rhelm to them? A lab for their various test I presume. You can't create a subject material for the purpose of destruction which I'm referring to everything God said he will consume in a lake of fire satan, demons and humans inclusive I believe that's the error of the creator not the created material. To my own knowledge of the universe and everything nothing really exist we are all same matter, space and dark matter. It's only the dimension we enter into that define us of the purpose we offer the universe/multiverse

ValentineMary:

The prevailing laws of physics.

Bamidelefundz:

Bro, I'm an atheist. I should tell you that there can never be a time t=0 at any point in time In the universe. Time is not real at any point, it's just an illustration to define space at a particular point not necessary the start of the point. If t=0 at the singularity, that means an external factor started the Big Bang from singularity. My own problem with an external factor starting Big Bang from singularity is what entity can survive 53,000,000,000k within seconds that quark start to form from the unified force leading to fermions and gluons. It's impossible for an entity to withstand that temperature unless the external factor itself is universe. Your argument is solid but don't conclude it yet. Universe is still an hypothesis and should always be open ended to human beings

endtimeshit:
How can I? God is above all. By the way, God is a physicist

shadeyinka:


Slight point of correction, time is a marker to events that take place in space. If time is a maker of events, was there ever a time when everything in the universe was quiet and static? The lawsbwhich operate before the bang cannot be physical

The issue actually to brainstorm about is the source of energy either that initiated the bang or the inherent energy of the singularity (assuming an insable entity).All known Energy forms has a generator. Whichever way we look at it, the first law of thermodynamics is violated

shadeyinka:


The multiverse hypothesis is a hypothesis. It has no practical basis yet. If the multiverse theory is true, then our universe is just a subset of a higher universe.

Theists will call it the rhelm of the spirit