Smallville10:
i wish i do

because I can only speak for myself,i was once into religion like u b4 I discovered d flaw in it,so for me to go back into religion is impossible

reallest:
because I can only speak for myself,i was once into religion like u b4 I discovered d flaw in it,so for me to go back into religion is impossible

Then who cares?

If you a theist, what gain do I have?

Abeg move ahead!

shadeyinka:


You know what, if I could rewrite scriptures maybe the concept of hell or lake of fire would be temporal (I.e. if I put it in there in the first place). However, no one understand why it is in the scripture and we can't explain it away.

But, some clarifications:
Time doesn't exist in the spiritual rhelm. Its just like in your dream where a 5 min dream may cover a period of 2days or more.

Although this is not clearly taught in the scriptures, I believe that just as rewards are not equal in Paradise maybe punishment in hell or lake of fire is not the same. No one knows.

In a place where time doesn't exist, 100 billion years may just pass as if it is 20 minutes and 20 minutes may pass off like eternity.

Time is a measure of linear change in events...but in the spiritual events is not linear. Events could be concurrent or overlap.

If time doesn't exist, what then is 200billion years? I hope you get the point

The lake of fire is a term to describe Gods refuse dump!
If anyone's name is NOT found in the Book of Life, he is discarded there..Rev13:8, Rev17:8


ALSO,
If your interpretation of death is correct,
1. Why did Jesus die? For His sins?
2. All the Apostles died violent deaths (except John) was it for their sins?
3. If the wages of sin is "an unconscious state" how come there is resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
4. Why would Daniel refer to some people waking up from death to everlasting shame?

Check the definition of death I presented and see whether it conflicts

OK... this comes down to the subject of death>

What happens at death is no mystery to Jehovah, the Creator of the brain. He knows the truth, and in his Word, the Bible, he explains the condition of the dead. Its clear teaching is this: When a person dies, he ceases to exist. Death is the opposite of life. The dead do not see or hear or think. Not even one part of us survives the death of the body. We do not possess an immortal soul or spirit. *

A candle with the flame put out
Where did the flame go?
6 After Solomon observed that the living know that they will die, he wrote: “But the dead know nothing at all.” He then enlarged on that basic truth by saying that the dead can neither love nor hate and that “there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave.” (Read Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10.)

Jesus died because he carried the sins of the world in his shoulders, since the wages of sin is death, he have to die.

Again the bible teaches about the resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous:
Acts 24:15: I have the same hope in God that they themselves cherish—that there is to be a resurrection of the righteous and the wicked.
(NIV).

Resurrection means calling back the dead to life, will it make sense to call back "the living in hell or heaven" to life only to judge them again? actually today, whoever dies does not go to heaven or hell, the human nature is not immortal. when you believe the human is mortal, then the hope of Resurrection takes on a real meaning for you.

promise10:

Then who cares?

If you a theist, what gain do I have?

Abeg move ahead!

U care by quoting me,u should have ignore me to show dat u don't care,dont u think so?

reallest:

U care by quoting me,u should have ignore me to show dat u don't care,dont u think so?

I would ONLY look as if I cared IN YOUR MIND.

But, don't you think I can still care but yet not quoting your post?

promise10:

I would ONLY look as if I cared IN YOUR MIND.

But, don't you think I can still care but yet not quoting your post?

U care by giving me ur 100% attention

shadeyinka:


This coming from joe4christ? OK, I will explain.

What is the purpose of an examination?
Examinations are not designed to "pass all students" examinations are made to FILTER out or differentiate BTW students who meet the minimum level of understanding of a set of given lectures, instruction or coaching.

If not for this, it is not difficult to set an exam that all students irrespective of whether they studied or not pass. E.g (400L examination at a University)
1. What is your name?
2. Write down your favourite food
3. What is 2+2=

So, you see why God did not design the question so that everyone will pass.

God would have set this kind of question:
Do whatever you like, kill, rape, maim people since I love you, I will retain your space in Paradise!

God is a God of Justice in spite of His Love!

The big question is, who is he really competing with, and what point is he trying to make
The Bible depict God like an insecured personality who is trying to prove his sovereignty to his own creation by every means possible using fear tactics.
He is too insecured and unstable for my liking. Is he not thesame dude who said he regretted he created man. And you still believe he is ominiscience and ominiknowest.
I would rather burn in hell than serve such a personality, that's if he actually is the sovereign Creator of everything that ever exist.
He is a lie...

shadeyinka:


Wear96, you are more intelligent than this. Let not argument for the sake of argument twist the arm of reason. No analogy is designed to be a perfect one to one match of actions, events and reaction else the analogy solves no problem...its just a representation not a match.

Do you understand the analogy ?

There is no human analogy that works for the bible god. That's all I'm saying. You must first preface your analogy by attaching the qualities of the god to the human. In your case, you forgot that the hypothetical professor MUST also be the designer of his own students. Only then can you present an honest photo of the scenario.
It's not a big deal. I'm a Virgo, so I always sweat the details and fine print.

reallest:
because I can only speak for myself,i was once into religion like u b4 I discovered d flaw in it,so for me to go back into religion is impossible

please in one or two sentences tell me what made u quit a relationship with GOD

shadeyinka:


..and the reason is because you desire a SLAVE and not a FRIEND from your car invention. Love and friendship conly occur when there is freedom of choice.



In this your case case above, you didn't have any right over her in the first place. You don't own her! A dog however may be a close enough example.

You bought a dog as a companion in your household and this dog reacts violently to anything that is dear to you. The least you will do to that dog is to chain it down.

You will not chain down a girl for not loving you..except something is wrong with you!




First, God is a Spirit and except you are in the spirit rhelm (which happens to all after we die) you cannot see Him.
BUT
Even if God was to physically appear in the Sky once a year to all men, will it make us to love Him?
Lucifer was an Arch Angel who stayed in the presence of God; did it stop his rebellion?

Trust me, as humans, a day will arrive when we would organise a demonstration against Him if we could see Him.

And again, it is about OWNERSHIP! GOD owns us! We are not independent beings who subject our wills to Him. We were created with that purpose in view.
The car analogy is validly close.



LOL!
Tools? Noooo!
A tool is a slave! Consciousness is not even required.

Love and Submission as a selection tool for ones "INVENTION" of a concious free willed ENTITY makes sense.




"I have set before you Life and Death...chose life that you may live" Deut30:19

We all do that for our children don't we?
..clean your bedroom result= Peace
..mess up your bedroom result =Trouble

Therefore, Clean your room so that there will be no trouble!

It is called Expo for the one you love. An objective question with just a YES or NO answer. As a teacher you tell your students :
Choose YES and I will give you full marks
NO! Is the wrong answer. If you choose it, I will mark it wrong!
In the exam hall, a student is free to choose his answer. His free will is indeed free.

To mans every action there is a consequence



As explained above, God doesn't want us as tool else we would be like the planets, the stars, atoms, laws of physics etc these are the tools and not humans

shadeyinka, i must say i respect and like your intelligence into issues we discuss about, we disagree on some issues both we agree also on many issues and it is always enlightening to have discussions with you, which got me thinking, we should have a thread where we have a civil discussion just as theist and atheist and show other people how a matured, respectful and intellectual debate between a theist and an atheist should look like, kudos, i hope you do the honors.

But addressing this issue, you still havent gotten my main bone of contention, I am not saying people cant be forced to choice something that would benefit them the way our parents do.

No, on the contrary, they are cases where people should be forced and if punishment is necessary, then so be it.

My Main point, is not that God wants free agents as his tools or companions, but how far he is willing to go at it.

Lets use your dog example, a dog is a free agent in a limited way and can make some decisions on its own, if you bought a dog and it is not serving your purpose, be honest, would you go tie up the dog, beat it mercilessly to within an inch of its life, starve it for a week and then make it walk in fire 3hrs of everyday?, i am guessing your answer would be No.

Then why is God, sending free-agents with feelings and emotions to hell where there is so much agony, despair, pain and anguish; Where people are burnt every second of every minute of every hour of every single day, for the rest of all eternity just for something they did in less than a 100years and majority's only crime where just because they did not believe in the right God. Do you really think thats fair?

Bring the worst dictator that every lived and i would tell you that person doesnt deserves an eternity in hell, well maybe hitler, stalin and a few others can spend at least 100years though for the pain they caused , but NOONE and i mean NOONE deserves an eternity in hell.

I get sick when i think about it, how can a loving parent say because he wants to correct his or her child, he/she would lock the child up, torture the child, day and night using fire and starve the child for a year. Such a parent would be regarded as a psychopath and locked in prison, and if you would not condone such a parent, then why are you condoning God who is far more worse than this?

NB: Some people might read this and think its because of that reason i am an atheist(I am angry at God), but on the contrary, i dont believe in hell or in an afterlife or even in a God that sends people there, i am just trying to understand how many theists can hold the idea of a God who is loving and merciful but still sends people to burn in hell for all of eternity, it beats me.

SHALOM!

Jesuobu:
Well, I ask this question but I will give you response which I think the answer is and maybe you will respond with whatever you think the answer is.

Please understand that God does not cause anybody to go hell but rather some people choose to go there on their own.

People who don't know what they are talking about plead with us to swallow their Blasphemies.

. JOHN 3:34-36.

34. "For he whom God hath sent speaketh the Words of God:
for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35. "The Father loveth the Son,
and hath given all things into his hand.
36. "He that believeth on the Son hath Everlasting Life:
and he that believeth not the Son shall not see Life;
but The Wrath of God abideth on him."

A SERVANT OF GOD TELLS PEOPLE THE WORDS OF GOD.

All we need to know is THUS SAITH THE LORD.

If you do not have WORDS OF GOD to back up your Crackpot Theories, DON'T TELL US THEM!

I NEVER ask people to believe a Crackpot Theory I do not have Scriptural Backing for!

Umm... what I mean to say, is that....

(*Ahem!*) MOVING ON....

. LUKE 12:1-5.

IN the mean time, when there were gathered together
an innumerable multitude of people,
insomuch that they trode one upon another,
he began to say unto his Disciples first of all,
"Beware ye of the Leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
2. "For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed;
neither hid, that shall not be known.
3. "Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness
shall be heard in the light;
and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets
shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.
4. "And I say unto you my Friends,

'BE NOT AFRAID OF THEM
THAT KILL THE BODY,
AND AFTER THAT HAVE
NO MORE THAT THEY CAN DO.'

5. "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear:

'FEAR HIM,
WHICH AFTER HE HATH KILLED
HATH POWER
TO CAST INTO HELL;'
YEA, I SAY UNTO YOU,

'FEAR HIM.' "

GOD SENDS PEOPLE TO HELL.

Here is YAHSHUA'S EXPLICIT STATEMENT on the topic.

I challenge you to give ONE SCRIPTURE that shows that people send themselves to Hell, but that GOD DOES NOT send people to Hell!

. PSALM 9:17.

17. The Wicked shall be turned into Hell,
and all the nations that forget God.

. MATTHEW 5:28-30.

28. "But I say unto you,

'THAT WHOSOEVER
LOOKETH ON A WOMAN
TO LUST AFTER HER
HATH COMMITTED ADULTERY
WITH HER ALREADY
IN HIS HEART.'

29. “And if thy right eye offend thee,
pluck it out, and cast it from thee:
for it is profitable for thee
that one of thy members should perish,
and not that thy whole body
should be cast into Hell.
30. “And if thy right hand offend thee,
cut it off, and cast it from thee:
for it is profitable for thee
that one of thy members should perish,
and not that thy whole body
should be cast into Hell.”

THE WICKED SHALL BE TURNED INTO HELL- or do you want to say that they will turn themselves into Hell?

Those who refuse to Sacrifice whatever-it-takes to render themselves unable to commit Sin- will they BE CAST into Hell, or will they cast THEMSELVES THEMSELVES?

SILLY IDEAS TAUGHT BY LYING CLERGYMEN BLIND ONE TO THE TRUTHS OF GOD.

One of the major causes of people going to hell is the rejection of the Creator himself and the son Jesus Christ.

WHEN YOU SAY THAT SOMETHING IS "ONE OF THE MAJOR CAUSES," OF SOMETHING, YOU STATING THAT THERE IS AT LEAST ONE OTHER CAUSE, AND IMPLY THAT THERE ARE AS MANY AS THREE CAUSES.

There cannot be any other cause of people going to Hell than their rejection of Yahshua: period.

You have also so implied that it is possible to accept Yahshua, and still go to Hell.

That is completely impossible.

The thing is, that UNJUST STEWARDS teach people to reduce their devotion to YAHSHUA from 100%, promising without authority, that they will still "go to Heaven/be Saved." Which is a LIE on their part.

God has made it abundantly clear through apostle Paul that His wrath will be upon people who reject Him and the son Jesus Christ when it was written in Romans 1:18-20, which says, For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For invincible attribute, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made. So there are without excuse”

"APOSTLE" PAUL is a serial liar, and much of what he says is unreliable.

The point is, if you believe this yourself, what is your excuse for abandoning YAHSHUA'S TEACHINGS, and following the THEORIES of INFERIOR people?

. MATTHEW 13:1-23.

THE same day went Jesus out of the house,
and sat by the sea side.
2. And great multitudes were
gathered together unto him,
so that he went into a ship, and sat;
and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3. And he spake many things
unto them in Parables, saying,
"Behold, a Sower went forth to sow;
4. "And when he sowed,
some seeds fell by the way side,
and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5. "Some fell upon stony places,
where they had not much earth:
and forthwith they sprung up,
because they had no deepness of earth:
6. "And when the Sun was up,
they were scorched;
and because they had no root,
they withered away.
7. "And some fell among thorns;
and the thorns sprung up,
and choked them:
8. "But other fell into good ground,
and brought forth fruit,
some an hundredfold,
some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9. "Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."
10. And the Disciples came, and said unto him,
"Why speakest thou unto them
in Parables?"
11. He answered and said unto them,
"Because it is given unto you to know
The Mysteries of
The Kingdom of Heaven,
but to them it is not given.
12. "For whosoever hath,
to him shall be given,
and he shall have
more abundance:
but whosoever hath not,
from him shall be taken away
even that he hath.
13. "Therefore speak I to them in Parables:
because they seeing see not;
and hearing they hear not,
neither do they understand.
14. "And in them is fulfilled
The Prophecy of Esaias, which saith,

'BY HEARING YE SHALL HEAR,
AND SHALL NOT UNDERSTAND;
AND SEEING YE SHALL SEE,
AND SHALL NOT PERCEIVE:
15. 'FOR THIS PEOPLE'S HEART
IS WAXED GROSS,
AND THEIR EARS
ARE DULL OF HEARING,
AND THEIR EYES
THEY HAVE CLOSED;
LEST AT ANY TIME
THEY SHOULD SEE
WITH THEIR EYES
AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND SHOULD UNDERSTAND
WITH THEIR HEART,
AND SHOULD BE CONVERTED,
AND I SHOULD HEAL THEM.'

16. "But blessed are your eyes, for they see:
and your ears, for they hear.
17. "For verily I say unto you,

'THAT MANY PROPHETS
AND RIGHTEOUS MEN HAVE DESIRED
TO SEE THOSE THINGS WHICH YE SEE,
AND HAVE NOT SEEN THEM;
AND TO HEAR THOSE THINGS
WHICH YE HEAR,
AND HAVE NOT HEARD THEM.'

18 “Hear ye therefore The Parable of the Sower.

19. 'WHEN ANY ONE HEARETH
THE WORD OF THE KINGDOM,
AND UNDERSTANDETH IT NOT,
THEN COMETH THE WICKED ONE,
AND CATCHETH AWAY
THAT WHICH WAS SOWN IN HIS HEART.
THIS IS HE WHICH
RECEIVED SEED BY THE WAY SIDE.
20. 'BUT HE THAT RECEIVED
THE SEED INTO STONY PLACES,
THE SAME IS HE
THAT HEARETH THE WORD,
AND ANON WITH JOY RECEIVETH IT;
21. 'YET HATH HE NOT ROOT
IN HIMSELF,
BUT DURETH FOR A WHILE:
FOR WHEN TRIBULATION OR PERSECUTION
ARISETH BECAUSE OF THE WORD,
BY AND BY HE IS OFFENDED.
22. 'HE ALSO THAT RECEIVED
SEED AMONG THE THORNS
IS HE THAT HEARETH THE WORD;
AND THE CARE OF THIS WORLD,
AND THE DECEITFULNESS OF RICHES,
CHOKE THE WORD,
AND HE BECOMETH UNFRUITFUL.
23. 'BUT HE THAT RECEIVED
SEED INTO THE GOOD GROUND
IS HE THAT HEARETH THE WORD,
AND UNDERSTANDETH IT;
WHICH ALSO BEARETH FRUIT,
AND BRINGETH FORTH,
SOME AN HUNDREDFOLD,
SOME SIXTY, SOME THIRTY.' "

YAHWEH GOD SPECIFICALLY COMMANDED YAHSHUA TO SPEAK IN PARABLES TO PREVENT THE UNWORTHY FROM ATTAINING SALVATION.

That is, HE SENT THEM to HELL- or WORSE (very few Sinners ever reach Hell when they die); they do not send themselves.

So people choose to go to hell because they reject Christ, not because God causes them to go there.

This contradicts your earlier statement, because you said that this was merely ONE of the MAJOR Causes.

God allows people to be born to give them the opportunity to believe, but is man’s responsibility to make choice.

THE DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION STATES THAT GOD KNOWS THE ENTIRE FUTURE, AND THAT THEREFORE IT IS FUTILE TRYING TO ALTER ONE'S DESTINY. That, no matter how hard one tries to escape Hell, one will never achieve it, if one has been foreseen by God to be headed for HELL; conversely, there is no need to try to attain Holiness and Worthiness to enter Heaven- it will happen anyway.

THE SOLUTION TO THIS OYINBO MADNESS- why are you taking advice on your ETERNAL DESTINY from a person whose ENTIRE family HAVE BEEN Thieves and Robbers, and beneficiaries of MURDER for hundreds of years?

America provides 95% of the World's Missionaries, because their churches are funded by INCOME TAX DEDUCTIONS- not because they LOVE GOD. (Did you KNOW that?) These are the World's greatest murderers at this time- but the Europeans are just as bad- they are the home of ROMAN CATHOLICISM. 70 YEARS AGO, they TRIED to TAKE OVER THE WORLD, and DESTROY all PROTESTANT CHRISTIAN CHURCHES.

When they FAILED, they LIED about it, and blamed it on ONE SCAPEGOAT- which would NEVER have WORKED without the COOPERATION of ALL of the FAKE Oyinbo PROTESTANT Churches, ORGANIZED ATHEISTS, and COMMUNIST BLOCS.

They ALL helped to COVER UP THE FACTS- and supported the FAKE HOLOCAUST- so that OYINBOS POSING AS JEWS could invade and occupy PALESTINE. There were no SIX MILLION JEWS murdered in GAS CHAMBERS, nor by any other means. Not even ONE MILLION. Not even HALF of one million.

1. INTRODUCTION TO THE HOLOHOAX- The Big Lie:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odgR_nPsf_Q


2. THE PICTURES:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mylBZHPw3_A


3. A HISTORY OF LIES:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwYnVJniTaI


MOZILLA FIREFOX USERS may want to go to:

http://savefrom.net/

and get their PLUGIN, if you don't already know about it.

It WILL change your LIFE!

In some other cases, some people have genuinely pledged their soul to Satan for money, fame or power and only God’s divine intervention can save them but if they die in that state, they will surely go to hell.

Nairalanders do you think otherwise? If yes, please give your reasons.

GOD CANNOT PREDICT YOUR FUTURE, UNLESS YOU DO EXACTLY AS HE SAYS.

By TELLING YOU your Future, He has ADDED HIS POWER to YOUR OWN- and thus made YOUR WILL the Determining Factor- HE no longer has a SAY.

God can see The Future of HIS KINGDOM, and see His Heavenly Banquet Table with, say, ADAM143, ENOCH007, and NOAH777 sitting at the North-West Corner of His Table. These being Ascended Human Beings, who were headed for Hell, but were Saved through Acceptance and Obedience of the Lord Yahshua. I made up those Names to illustrate the point- I have no idea at this time what the Heavenly Names are.

However, YAHWEH GOD CANNOT SEE WHO the Earthly Sinners ARE who will ATTAIN those HEAVENLY IDENTITIES.

GOD IS A SEVEN-LEVEL BEING.

He occupies and Rules SEVEN UNIVERSES at a time.

He THINKS and ACTS according to the LAWS of those STACKED Universes, which are called "HEAVENS."

Human Beings are ONE-LEVEL BEINGS- with the CAPABILITY of ATTAINING the Seven Senior Levels.

Our NATURAL STATE is to THINK and OPERATE according to the Laws of the Earth Universe- which are INFERIOR TO THE Laws of HEAVEN- which require successively Higher and Higher Spiritual Power Levels to Operate in.

The Earth Universe exists BENEATH Divine Power Levels.

Therefore, there is not enough SPIRITUAL POWER in the EARTH-UNIVERSE Level MIND to UNDERSTAND HEAVENLY LAW- the LEAST aspect of which is THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL: that is, VIRTUE.

When a person UNDERSTANDS the Differences between GOOD and EVIL, they are operating on a HIGHER POWER LEVEL than the Earth Universe.

Following Rules because SOMEBODY TOLD YOU WHAT TO DO is NOT "UNDERSTANDING."

. JOB 28:28.

28. "And unto Man He said,

'BEHOLD, THE FEAR OF THE LORD,
THAT IS WISDOM;
AND TO DEPART FROM EVIL
IS UNDERSTANDING.' "

. JOB 39:13-18.

13. "Gavest thou the goodly wings unto the peacocks?
or wings and feathers unto the ostrich?
14. "Which leaveth her eggs in the earth,
and warmeth them in dust,
15. "And forgetteth that the foot may crush them,
or that the wild beast may break them.
16. "She is hardened against her young ones,
as though they were not her's:
her labour is in vain without fear;
17. "Because God hath deprived her of Wisdom,
neither hath he imparted to her Understanding.
18." What time she lifteth up herself on high,
she scorneth the horse and his rider."

THEREFORE, GOD CANNOT PREDICT WHO WILL AND WHO WILL NOT REPENT AND ACCEPT THEIR HEAVENLY CITIZENSHIP- BECAUSE IT IS A LEVEL 8 DECISION, AND THUS BENEATH HIS ABILITY TO SEE WITHOUT INFLUENCING IT.

Smallville10:
please in one or two sentences tell me what made u quit a relationship with GOD

I discover Christianity to be scam

AnonyNymous:

Nice analogy. But let's modify it a bit to make it similar to what we've been talking about.

"If I wasn't born yet, and my parents saw in a 100% accurate time machine that if they have sex and give birth to me, I will bring about Hitler-level destruction of the earth, then are my parents not evil for still choosing to f*ck and bring about the destruction of the world??"

The same could be said about your god and creation.



Its not fair to condemn a person if you are not the cause of that person's existence.



Its not free will, because what will happen, will still happen. If there is free will, omniscience isn't possible, because omniscience includes knowing the end result already. Its just like putting someone in a cage that has only one exit, and then telling him he has the choice to exit from wherever he likes.

cc hopefullandlord hahn lennycool seun

true talk

reallest:

I discover Christianity to be scam

i could have said HOLY SHIT if u had actually said God was a scam...
I understand perfectly if u say such, the church is now a place of business and politics and hate and jealousy. Pastors are not what we think they are; this makes me move a step away everyday but it hasnt change my relationship with GOD. I know alot of things are happening in d world but we cant hold God responsible for our mistakes because would not interfer with our FREEWILL; one thing athiests dont understand and might never understand is that GOD allows some evil to happen in order to avert (avoid) a greater evil...
So i would say to you, know and understand GOD better and not the church... Only him has something good to offer you

Smallville10:
i could have said HOLY SHIT if u had actually said God was a scam...
I understand perfectly if u say such, the church is now a place of business and politics and hate and jealousy. Pastors are not what we think they are; this makes me move a step away everyday but it hasnt change my relationship with GOD. I know alot of things are happening in d world but we cant hold God responsible for our mistakes because would not interfer with our FREEWILL; one thing athiests dont understand and might never understand is that GOD allows some evil to happen in order to avert (avoid) a greater evil...
So i would say to you, know and understand GOD better and not the church... Only him has something good to offer you

No where in my post did I mention church,i said Christianity not church,what I discover is dat God of Bible is not someone I will like to be associate with

maximunimpact:


OK... this comes down to the subject of death>

What happens at death is no mystery to Jehovah, the Creator of the brain. He knows the truth, and in his Word, the Bible, he explains the condition of the dead. Its clear teaching is this: When a person dies, he ceases to exist. Death is the opposite of life. The dead do not see or hear or think. Not even one part of us survives the death of the body. We do not possess an immortal soul or spirit. *

You have only looked at death from the Physical point of view. As in a dead lion , goat, man can not feel anything. But that is not the only kind of death in existence.

There are three kinds of death described in the Bible, they are:
1. Physical Death:
2. Spiritual Death
3. Second Death: Lake of Fire!
Like I said earlier, death is simply a disconnection or separation

Does God lie?
Look at Gen 2:17
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Did Adam and Eve die on the day they eat the forbidden fruit?
Physically No!
Spiritually Yes!
Spiritual death is when a person is disconnected from God due to sin.

Because of this, they could not come into the presence of the Holy God. They hid themselves
Rev3:10
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid , because I was naked; and I hid myself.

The Glory of God which was there covering was removed from them..they became naked. Rom3:23
This is the Spiritual Death: we were all born this way

The Second Death is clear: Rev20:14, Rev21:8
Paraphrased: if any ones name is not found in the register of heaven he is thrown into Gods refuse bin (outer darkness) where there shall be gnashing of teeth.

Jesus picture of hell is not of annihilation but of torment! Mt8:12, Mt13:42, Mt13:50, Lk13:28 etc

maximunimpact:

A candle with the flame put out
Where did the flame go?
6 After Solomon observed that the living know that they will die, he wrote: “But the dead know nothing at all.” He then enlarged on that basic truth by saying that the dead can neither love nor hate and that “there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave.” (Read Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10.)

Solomon is correct in the sense of the Physical Death (and he was describing the true realities of the physical death. When a person gets disconnected from the physical state (Physical Death) of course, his thoughts, plannings, knowledge etc is of no avail.

However, let me show you from the scriptures that the Physical Death is NOT the end of existence and I will not use Lazarus because you will say that it is a parable.

1. Rev 6:10-11

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?...

This is before the Resurection! They had to wait for the remaining brethren to be killed....they were given white robes to where, they could speak.

2. Mt22:32

32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Jesus died because he carried the sins of the world in his shoulders, since the wages of sin is death, he have to die.

God is NOT the God of the dead, by implication Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive with God, they are not unconscious!
3. Mt17:1-4

Matthew 17

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

You will notice that Jesus, Moses and Elijah were in their glorified bodies. Since it wasn't yet resurrection , how come they were speaking to Jesus.
Or
Did God kill them again after their chat with Jesus?

There are others but let me stop here!

maximunimpact:

Again the bible teaches about the resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous:
Acts 24:15: I have the same hope in God that they themselves cherish—that there is to be a resurrection of the righteous and the wicked.
(NIV).

Resurrection means calling back the dead to life, will it make sense to call back "the living in hell or heaven" to life only to judge them again? actually today, whoever dies does not go to heaven or hell, the human nature is not immortal. when you believe the human is mortal, then the hope of Resurrection takes on a real meaning for you.

No Sir! The human nature has a beginning but no end. God is a spirit and spirits cannot die. A human being is also partly a spirit hence like the angels, he cannot cease to exist.

That is why Jesus says: Lk12:4-5
[ quote] 4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.

5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him[/quote].

Resurrection is simply recombining the Body of Man back to his soul and spirit.

Just as Angels exist even though they do not have a body, so a man does exist after he is disconnected from his body.
Do Angels need a Brain to function? Do they need a heart to exist?

God designed man to have a Body, Soul and Spirit.
In death, man exist as a union of a Soul and Spirit and NO Body. That is the essence of resurrection.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

We were designed to live in a Physical world after resurection.

Sorry for my long post. I can still take any of your questions. I can see you love God!

joe4christ:


The big question is, who is he really competing with, and what point is he trying to make
The Bible depict God like an insecured personality who is trying to prove his sovereignty to his own creation by every means possible using fear tactics.

Who says anything about insecurity?
I guess you have misunderstood the purpose of God.

Let us assume you are the best computer scientist in the world with an ability to make robots with advance artificial intelligence.

You chose to make some robots with the best of your technology so that these robots will love you and you can relate with them as friends and not as slaves or zombies.

This your aim requires that you give them independence of will or else love and friendship doesn't make any sense.

So, you made these robots with consciousness and independent volition.

Since you need only the robots that will by there choice love you and choose to be your friend, you allow them to make their choices by the way they relate with you and with each other.

At the end, you select ONLY those who love you and will to be your friend.

Those robots who choose to hate you and other robots, you bind and throw into your refuse dump.

-In what way have you been egocentric?
-Do you have any right to do whatever you like with your robots?
-In what way have you shown insecurity in your actions?
-should you be sovereign over your robots or not?

Can you honestly answer these four questions?

joe4christ:

He is too insecured and unstable for my liking. Is he not thesame dude who said he regretted he created man. And you still believe he is ominiscience and ominiknowest.
I would rather burn in hell than serve such a personality, that's if he actually is the sovereign Creator of everything that ever exist.
He is a lie...

LOL!
You are the inventor, designer and builder of Boeing 747. You know with certainty that some of your planes will crash and kill its passengers?

Will you go ahead and still create and build the Boeing 747?
Pls answer truthfully Why?

Now, let's assume you went ahead and built this plane because of is ultimate advantage to yourself and humanity AND a few years after, one Boeing 747 Plane crashed killing ALL 320 passengers on board and you went to the crash site.

Would you be happy and exclaim that the sacrifice is insignificant to the overall good to be derived from your plane OR
Will you be genuinely SAD, that these people had to die in your plane?

God regrets for making man is a figurative expression to describe the feeling of sadness even though you know that the events and happening are INEVITABLE!

Finally, it is Your choice to Roast in Hell if you want and God will NOT force you into Paradise against your will.

If hell has degrees of intensity of pain I am sure that some people have chosen from earth to be in the deepest part.

Do NOT joke with a law you don't understand.
Electrocution does not respect even Babies

My spirit tells me that you know the truth but you are following the crowd of those you consider as "intelligent folks"

It is not too late to turn back to Him. He is waiting!
Your exam is NOT yet over!

donnffd:


shadeyinka, i must say i respect and like your intelligence into issues we discuss about, we disagree on some issues both we agree also on many issues and it is always enlightening to have discussions with you, which got me thinking, we should have a thread where we have a civil discussion just as theist and atheist and show other people how a matured, respectful and intellectual debate between a theist and an atheist should look like, kudos, i hope you do the honors.

I am honoured to hear and receive such complements from you. I am almost blushing as I read this. Thanks!
I have also learnt a great deal from you. I guess its our analytic side from the study of Physics that is rubbing unto our theistic/atheistic views. For me, Faith is not Blind but there is always a justification for it.

As per a heathy debate between Theists and Atheists, I think we are already doing that. Moreover, no one can change a human being by the force of logic and reason. We are such a complex set of creature. Whenever we chat, people who read will learn.

donnffd:

But addressing this issue, you still havent gotten my main bone of contention, I am not saying people cant be forced to choice something that would benefit them the way our parents do.

No, on the contrary, they are cases where people should be forced and if punishment is necessary, then so be it.

My Main point, is not that God wants free agents as his tools or companions, but how far he is willing to go at it.

Lets use your dog example, a dog is a free agent in a limited way and can make some decisions on its own, if you bought a dog and it is not serving your purpose, be honest, would you go tie up the dog, beat it mercilessly to within an inch of its life, starve it for a week and then make it walk in fire 3hrs of everyday?, i am guessing your answer would be No.

I think I understand you. The punishment seems extreme for a sin of rebellion committed under a space of 100 years.

But, I didn't make the rules and sometimes, secretly, I wish something could be done about it.

But I think as a Physicist you can understand the concept of time.

In the spirit rhelm, time doesn't exist. Time is meaningless. In such an environment, 100 billion earth years may be like 20 minutes in "heavens" time and vise versa.

I believe the concept of eternity is in the framework of timeless existence.

Finally, even though the bible did not expressly teach this, I believe that the punishment of hell is not the same for all men. My justification is that if the righteous will have varying rewards, it makes sense based on the law of justice that punishments will be in proportion to the offence. But, this is just my speculation and I could be far from the truth about this.

donnffd:

Then why is God, sending free-agents with feelings and emotions to hell where there is so much agony, despair, pain and anguish; Where people are burnt every second of every minute of every hour of every single day, for the rest of all eternity just for something they did in less than a 100years and majority's only crime where just because they did not believe in the right God. Do you really think thats fair?

Then above has been discussed above however, this your statement makes sense if the gap between the judge and the convict is not great.

In this respect, the gap between man and animals is not too great. Therefore, in killing mammals even for food most humans show some measure of concern. We want to give the animal as painless a death as possible.

As the gap between judge and condemned becomes higher empathy doesn't come into the equation. How many billions of bacteria's have you killed in the name of disinfecting your toilet, bathroom and utensils?

Have you once bothered to find out if these bacteria's are feeling terrible pain? We don't even bat an eye that we killed millions of bacteria's just trying to survive. No iota of guilty conscience over a mass murder!

If God could be described in Physical terms, He must be by size at least the size of an average galaxy. (Assuming a single person can build a facility 1000 times bigger than his size). This means that we should be like the size of electrons to God. If God was to be quantified in terms of Age, he must be some trillion years old and by comparison, we humans will be like a transient occurrence.

The point is, if God is infinitely bigger than us, why should He feel anything about consigning " these insignificant rebellious humans" to hell.

donnffd:

Bring the worst dictator that every lived and i would tell you that person doesnt deserves an eternity in hell, well maybe hitler, stalin and a few others can spend at least 100years though for the pain they caused , but NOONE and i mean NOONE deserves an eternity in hell.

Rebellion against One who is infinitely greater than you may provoke an extreme judgement.

Historically, the greater a king, the more extreme his punishment against rebellion against him. Eg
Vlad Dracula of Wallachia, Roman Crucifixion etc.

The point seems to be "how dare you rebel against your creator!"

donnffd:

I get sick when i think about it, how can a loving parent say because he wants to correct his or her child, he/she would lock the child up, torture the child, day and night using fire and starve the child for a year. Such a parent would be regarded as a psychopath and locked in prison, and if you would not condone such a parent, then why are you condoning God who is far more worse than this?

But God is not the Father of everybody...but He is the Godnof everything!

donnffd:

NB: Some people might read this and think its because of that reason i am an atheist(I am angry at God), but on the contrary, i dont believe in hell or in an afterlife or even in a God that sends people there, i am just trying to understand how many theists can hold the idea of a God who is loving and merciful but still sends people to burn in hell for all of eternity, it beats me.

Now, isn't God just being fair?
If here on earth where you live for a maximum of 120 years a person choose to live a life where he rejects God.
Would God be fair in forcing such a person to live with Him for Eternity?

One may argue that couldn't God have just simply destroyed such group of people after a temporal measure of punishment.
Unfortunately, man is a spirit and spirits can neither die nor be destroyed. They may have a beginning but there existence never terminates. Its just the law...no one has control over it.

Jesus warned us over this:
Lk12:4-5

4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.

5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

mank1234:


Not true dear. What pulls the ball is elastic energy which is very different from gravitational force. You need a very massive object, a less massive object, both suspended in a vacuum to demonstrate gravity - this is very very infeasible except for space exploration agencies.

error from you...wat youre even trynna say is entropic elasticity sef...
But i never askked him to ''stretch'' the band...
Just norrmal placing at two ends...any material can do...so long it is flexible and a ''dip'' can be created...like gravity is the curvature/dip of space time...
Gravity keep you to '' earth''...not only works in ''space''...

mank1234:


It takes light 8.3minutes to reach earth from the sun while it takes 4years to reach us from the nearest star, Sirius.
Check out at the link below.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/clips/znt6n39

Devote a little of your time and watch NASATv online. If you do on a regular basis, not only will you be amazed at the orderliness of the universe, which can only be possible through careful design. Such design can only be possible by my God.

you said scientists believe ''light'' by faith...
So?

gaelllic:


First, I would like to congratulate you for your effort at an argument.

Please listen carefully.

For this...description to begin to be worthy of discussion you would have to demonstrate that there is indeed

a physical environment resembling your elastic sheet upon which we all live. There is not.

And even if I chose to humour you...how then is it that your little ball does not spiral around its partner in turns of diminishing length?

Why does it roll straight down the dip? Is that what 'planets' are supposed to do?

Perhaps you saw Carl Sagan perform this activity on a cable program. That is not science.

Please note my courtesy in even addressing this post, it is not empirical evidence.

If you don't know the word, look it up.

Don't be lazy or embarrassed.

lol...clearly you lost interest in ''physics'' at a tender age....
The larger the mass...the larger the effect of gravity oga..
The orbit...the total of the kinetic and potential energy keeps the orbit going...(in a vacuum the earths speed doesnt drop)
The elastic sheet is just used to represent the curvature
click here

AnonyNymous:

Nice analogy. But let's modify it a bit to make it similar to what we've been talking about.

Although, I wish you answer the question posted: for emphasis here it is again. Note that the subject is about Foreknowledge vs Freewill

shadeyinka:


Let me ask you a question:
Suppose your parent told you that they saw you in a special time machine ( that predicts the future with 100% certainty ) causing great havoc to the family and so preemptively the called the police to arrest and imprison you.

Will you submit yourself to this preemptive judgement?

How about if you were caught attempting to burn down the family house while everyone was sleeping. Would you have a justification for not being sent to prison?

So even with Foreknowledge, it is NOT fair to condem a person.

The converse too is true:
How excited would you be if you were awarded Nobel Prize for Science based on the prediction that you will discover the cure of HIV in 30 years time?

The world is one BIG daily examination of everyone: you can choose to treat it seriously or lackadaisically.

That is why your choice based on your freewill is the basis of your reward or judgement.

I will gladly expand it to include the concept of evil which is reflected in your analogy. Now, here you present another analogy with emphasis on evil with a biased taint.

Permit me to remove your bias by inserting the bolded and then answer the question raised by your analogy.

AnonyNymous:

"If I wasn't born yet, and my parents saw in a 100% accurate time machine that if they have sex and give birth to me, I will bring about Hitler-level destruction of the earth which ultimately will produce a race of human being who will live together in love, advancement, peace and harmony for the next one thousand years , then are my parents not evil for still choosing to f*ck and bring about the destruction of the world??"

Would you say these parent are really evil OR It is called sacrifice they had to make for an overall objective!

Even as humans, sacrifice is a daily necessity. We sacrifice pleasures and enjoyment to face our studies with a purpose of excelling. Women repeatedly face the pains of childbirth for the ultimate joy of having a baby. Athletes push their bodies through the rigours of training for Laurels etc

The ultimate goal of God is selecting from among humans those who will by their own volition love Him and each other in reverence.

AnonyNymous:

The same could be said about your god and creation.

Its not fair to condemn a person if you are not the cause of that person's existence.

I agree with you on this: "if you are not the cause of a persons existence". How about if you created this person for a purpose, would this be fair?

Does sacrifice make sense if an ultimate goal will be achieved?

AnonyNymous:

Its not free will, because what will happen, will still happen. If there is free will, omniscience isn't possible, because omniscience includes knowing the end result already. Its just like putting someone in a cage that has only one exit, and then telling him he has the choice to exit from wherever he likes.

cc hopefullandlord hahn lennycool seun

Here is another analogy in my previous post on NL:

shadeyinka:


Who says anything about insecurity?
I guess you have misunderstood the purpose of God.

Let us assume you are the best computer scientist in the world with an ability to make robots with advance artificial intelligence.

You chose to make some robots with the best of your technology so that these robots will love you and you can relate with them as friends and not as slaves or zombies.

This your aim requires that you give them independence of will or else love and friendship doesn't make any sense.

So, you made these robots with consciousness and independent volition.

Since you need only the robots that will by there choice love you and choose to be your friend, you allow them to make their choices by the way they relate with you and with each other.

At the end, you select ONLY those who love you and will to be your friend.

Those robots who choose to hate you and other robots, you bind and throw into your refuse dump.

-In what way have you been egocentric?
-Do you have any right to do whatever you like with your robots?
-In what way have you shown insecurity in your actions?
-should you be sovereign over your robots or not?

Can you honestly answer these four questions?





LOL!
You are the inventor, designer and builder of Boeing 747. You know with certainty that some of your planes will crash and kill its passengers?

Will you go ahead and still create and build the Boeing 747?
Pls answer truthfully Why?

Now, let's assume you went ahead and built this plane because of is ultimate advantage to yourself and humanity AND a few years after, one Boeing 747 Plane crashed killing ALL 320 passengers on board and you went to the crash site.

Would you be happy and exclaim that the sacrifice is insignificant to the overall good to be derived from your plane OR
Will you be genuinely SAD, that these people had to die in your plane?

God regrets for making man is a figurative expression to describe the feeling of sadness even though you know that the events and happening are INEVITABLE!

Finally, it is Your choice to Roast in Hell if you want and God will NOT force you into Paradise against your will.

If hell has degrees of intensity of pain I am sure that some people have chosen from earth to be in the deepest part.

Do NOT joke with a law you don't understand.
Electrocution does not respect even Babies

My spirit tells me that you know the truth but you are following the crowd of those you consider as "intelligent folks"

It is not too late to turn back to Him. He is waiting!
Your exam is NOT yet over!

My apologies: pls ignore statement not directly related to you. I was referring to someone else's post. He was asking why God had to regret creating man in Genesis.

raphieMontella:

you said scientists believe ''light'' by faith...
So?

Go back and read again. I referred to atheist and you not scientist; not all atheist are scientist.
Here's the original text: How come it's easy for an atheist to believe that it takes light from a star more than a year to reach earth but difficult to believe that there's a creator?

Most atheist don't have the luxury of looking through a telescope nor any means to verify what cosmologist/astronomers postulate. Likewise you and I. For you to accept what you can't proof, that's faith.

Again, even if you're a scientist, you can't be all knowing in all field. Science is a very broad subject. So you still have to depend on some form of believe which I call faith to accept what scientists in other field postulate.

Cosmology/astronomy as a field in science is full of so many divergent and conflicting views.

raphieMontella:

error from you...wat youre even trynna say is entropic elasticity sef...
But i never askked him to ''stretch'' the band...
Just norrmal placing at two ends...any material can do...so long it is flexible and a ''dip'' can be created...like gravity is the curvature/dip of space time...
Gravity keep you to '' earth''...not only works in ''space''...

Lol. To demonstrate gravity purely due to the two objects in the test, you need to do it in a vacuum, otherwise other forces will act on it (eg gravity due to earth, earth's magnetic field, etc).

Yes gravity keeps us on earth but what you wanted to proof is the gravity between the two objects in test and not that due to earth. So to do that you need to eliminate gravity due to external environment - the earth. And hence the need for a vacuum.

shadeyinka:


Sorry for the late reply..work exigencies.
Hm! I admit that some things are not easy to comprehend when treated as a isolated fact in the scripture.

However, I can relate the case of Pharaoh with you raphieMontella. You are an Atheist, did God hadden your heart or did you choose to be an Atheist by yourself? If you claim that God hardened your heart, you may have a case however if you are consciously in control of your choices then Irrespective of what a third party says, you are still ultimately responsible for your decision.

Do you think Pharaoh was acting oblivious of his choices? Finally, even if God hardened his heart, it has nothing to do with salvation or punishment of hell which is the issue in contention.

like when asked to let the israelites go...he refused...but how does he know he is willingly refusing their freedom? It may seem so..bt a ''destiny'' is a destiny...
Read romans 9:17

For Judas, there were 12 disciples, who says it must be him and not Peter or James! If he didn't love money that much, it may not have fallen upon him

read psalm 41:9
john 13:10,18(mark 14:18,20)
matthew 26:23,25
john 13:26,27
link all these bible passages...and explain judas wasnt destined to bleep jesus...
P.s would have posted the verses mentioned above here..but am afraid of a ban from those bots

---

also...i have bible verses which signify that god predestines some persons to heaven...''elect'' or sommething..

donnffd:


Bring the worst dictator that every lived and i would tell you that person doesnt deserves an eternity in hell, well maybe hitler, stalin and a few others can spend at least 100years though for the pain they caused , but NOONE and i mean NOONE deserves an eternity in hell.

donnffd:
i am just trying to understand how many theists can hold the idea of a God who is loving and merciful but still sends people to burn in hell for all of eternity, it beats me.

Your problem is that you have no good notion of the majesty of God.

Your problem is scale.

Your inability to comprehend eternal punishment reflects your failure to grasp infinite majesty, and the consequences of offense towards that.

Think well.

Think of all the suya (and other beef products) you've consumed all your life. Each meal, each bite was made possible by the death

of a creature which had no say in the matter. How many tears have you shed over them?

Every time you've used anti-insect aerosols, or even disinfectant, you have acted to take life you will never be able to create. Casually and

thoughtlessly. This is your right, men have dominion over animals.

But understand that the 'gap' in 'status' between you and the smallest bacterium is infinitely incomparable to the 'gap' between you

and God.

i.e. You could nurse a sick mosquito back to health, adopt it as a pet, feed it with your own blood, and still not have descended as low

as He does to have a relationship with you.

You are overestimating yourself in the grand scheme of things. And so you are unable to properly scale the gravity of sin,

and its just punishment.

Leave the young man. A thousand year is like a day in God's eye. Eternity looks long to us but not to the creator. Scientist whom donnffd has so much faith have since come up with the notion that time is relative. Time runs faster here on earth than it does at international space station (ISS) which is extremely very close to us compared to the expanse of the universe. It is believed by some scientists that at the 'black hole' time might be almost at a standstill. If indeed that's true, then his view of eternity being too long is flawed because he's only looking at it from the perspective of the earth.

More so, it seems donnffd would be a very good judge since he has super knowledge of the universe, and what is moral and fair. May be he should just make himself God!

God is awesome, fear him. Seek to know him and worship him alone.

gaelllic:




Your problem is that you have no good notion of the majesty of God.

Your problem is scale.

Your inability to comprehend eternal punishment reflects your failure to grasp infinite majesty, and the consequences of offense towards that.

Think well.

Think of all the suya (and other beef products) you've consumed all your life. Each meal, each bite was made possible by the death

of a creature which had no say in the matter. How many tears have you shed over them?

Every time you've used anti-insect aerosols, or even disinfectant, you have acted to take life you will never be able to create. Casually and

thoughtlessly. This is your right, men have dominion over animals.

But understand that the 'gap' in 'status' between you and the smallest bacterium is infinitely incomparable to the 'gap' between you

and God.

i.e. You could nurse a sick mosquito back to health, adopt it as a pet, feed it with your own blood, and still not have descended as low

as He does to have a relationship with you.

You are overestimating yourself in the grand scheme of things. And so you are unable to properly scale the gravity of sin,

and its just punishment.

raphieMontella:

lol...clearly you lost interest in ''physics'' at a tender age....
The larger the mass...the larger the effect of gravity oga..
The orbit...the total of the kinetic and potential energy keeps the orbit going...(in a vacuum the earths speed doesnt drop)
The elastic sheet is just used to represent the curvature
click here

1. A model, in order to be valid must accurately resemble the real life object. A scale model Mercedes must resemble an actual one. A scale

model 747 must resemble the real thing. Otherwise, all inferences made from that model are invalid. Your sheet demonstration does not represent

the shape of the physical universe. The environment does not consist of a plane surface upon which objects rest. It is a 3-dimensional space

containing 3-dimensional objects within it. Your model is automatically invalid because it is not true to life.

1b.And even at that. If the relative difference in mass between balls is the same (as between sun and earth), the orbit effect should be

observed if this sheet demonstration is held in a vacuum. I assure you it will not.


2. However, let us humour the absurdity. You'll want to read this twice, I think. As per your position...

raphieMontella:

The larger the mass...the larger the effect of gravity oga..

Thus according to your position

The sun is roughly 93 million miles from earth.

The sun is about 93.25 million miles from the moon. ( at its farthest point from the sun)

The sun is about 300,000 times heavier than earth.

The sun is about 27 million times heavier than the moon.

They are both roughly the same distance from the sun. The huge differential you see should negate any of earth's effect on the moon.

The moon is vastly less massive relative to the sun than earth is, and thus ought to feel sun's gravity more acutely.

i.e. The moon should orbit the sun. Why is the earth's gravity effective upon the moon at all?

Your link:

It is rather like a tether ball. Think of the top of the post as the Sun and the ball as the Earth. The string between them is like the force of gravity keeping them the same distance apart. When you hit the tether ball it spins around the post. If there were no air or rope friction, the ball would spin forever without getting any closer to the post. That is essentially what the Earth is doing


Now imagine a smaller ball attached by a much shorter string to this 'tether ball'. Can it possibly maintain an orbit around the tether ball?

Simultaneously with the tether ball maintaining its orbit around the post? Or are both not swept together in an arc around the post?


3. 'Empiricism'. Are you simply stubbornly refusing to look it up? Please do look. Nothing you've brought forth yet qualifies.

Your question is the most difficult in the world. It is not a question I can answer simply with yes or no. I am not an Atheist. I do not know if I can define myself as a Pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. May I not reply with a parable? The human mind, no matter how highly trained, cannot grasp the universe. We are in the position of a little child, entering a huge library whose walls are covered to the ceiling with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written those books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books, a mysterious order, which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of the human mind, even the greatest and most cultured, toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged, obeying certain laws, but we understand the laws only dimly. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that sways the constellations.

-Copied(Albert Einstein)

gaelllic:



1. A model, in order to be valid must accurately resemble the real life object. A scale model Mercedes must resemble an actual one. A scale

model 747 must resemble the real thing. Otherwise, all inferences made from that model are invalid. Your sheet demonstration does not represent

the shape of the physical universe. The environment does not consist of a plane surface upon which objects rest. It is a 3-dimensional space

what is the third dimension sir?....time... So??
Its an analogy bruh..you're mixing it up

containing 3-dimensional objects within it. Your model is automatically invalid because it is not true to life.

because you just dont want to know about gravity...
The Third d is time bruh...

1b.And even at that. If the relative difference in mass between balls is the same (as between sun and earth), the orbit effect should be

observed if this sheet demonstration is held in a vacuum. I assure you it will not.

the vacuum causes the orbit...
The curvature/dip of gravity causes the attraction sire...
The mass of an object causes a ''dip'' in space..

2. However, let us humour the absurdity.

ignorance is not a right to folly bruh...

You'll want to read this twice, I think. As per your position...

The sun is roughly 93 million miles from earth.

The earth is about 240,000 miles from earth. ( a relatively insignificant distance)

The earth is about 81 times heavier than the moon.

The sun is well over 300,000 times heavier than earth.



So why does the earth have any gravitational effect on the moon at all? They are both roughly the same distance from the sun.

The moon is smaller than the earth and thus ought to feel sun's gravity more acutely. Why is the earth's gravity effective on the moon at all?

like you said...the earth is heavier than the moon..
The moon is closer to the earth than it is to the sun...and so it is in the earth's hill sphere ..
Also the ''force'' of earth's pull on the moon is greater than the sun's ''pull'' on the moon...
The law of universal gravitation gives the answer bruh...[f=(Gm1m2)/r2]

Distance and mass..matters in gravity

Your link:

It is rather like a tether ball. Think of the top of the post as the Sun and the ball as the Earth. The string between them is like the force of gravity keeping them the same distance apart. When you hit the tether ball it spins around the post. If there were no air or rope friction, the ball would spin forever without getting any closer to the post. That is essentially what the Earth is doing


Now imagine a smaller ball attached by a much shorter string to this 'tether ball'. Can it possibly maintain an orbit around the tether ball?

Simultaneously with the tether ball maintaining its orbit around the post? Or are both not swept together in an arc around the post?

the answer is ''above''...
Now imagine a lot of balls...with different strings to that ''post''..
The uneven distribution of the ''masses'' causes ''dips'' at uneven locations

3. 'Empiricism'. Are you simply stubbornly refusing to look it up? Please do look. Nothing you've brought forth yet qualifies.

no bruh..you should look up ''emperical''...not me...
U asked for emperical evidence...
I told you ''gravity keeps you to the ground''...thats the observation you need....


If youre expecting emperical evidence of space from me...then disbelieve the speed of light and the speed of sound in air...

shadeyinka:


I think I understand you. The punishment seems extreme for a sin of rebellion committed under a space of 100 years.

But, I didn't make the rules and sometimes, secretly, I wish something could be done about it.

But I think as a Physicist you can understand the concept of time.

In the spirit rhelm, time doesn't exist. Time is meaningless. In such an environment, 100 billion earth years may be like 20 minutes in "heavens" time and vise versa.

I believe the concept of eternity is in the framework of timeless existence.

Finally, even though the bible did not expressly teach this, I believe that the punishment of hell is not the same for all men. My justification is that if the righteous will have varying rewards, it makes sense based on the law of justice that punishments will be in proportion to the offence. But, this is just my speculation and I could be far from the truth about this.

I do understand the concept of Time and sincerely from all logical points of view, Hell cannot exist without the concept of Time.

In physics, Time is just the sequence of events, as long as events occur, then time has occured, and so if we want to use a framework where events happen but no time exist, then we are heading to a paradox, but lets just say for the sake of argument, that time is different and 100billion years on earth is 20minutes in Hell or the spiritual world, as long as the events taking place in Hell never ends, you cant shy away from it, it is Infinity, in other words Eternity.

I am sure you have heard of Infinities inside Infinities, and Actual infinities, stuffs like that.

This idea describes it, so if someone is feeling pain in hell and that pain would never stop, then it is for eternity no matter how you measure it relating to time on earth.

Just as they are infinite decimal numbers between 0 and 1, doesnt mean there are no infinite whole numbers, so likewise this.

Then above has been discussed above however, this your statement makes sense if the gap between the judge and the convict is not great.

In this respect, the gap between man and animals is not too great. Therefore, in killing mammals even for food most humans show some measure of concern. We want to give the animal as painless a death as possible.

As the gap between judge and condemned becomes higher empathy doesn't come into the equation. How many billions of bacteria's have you killed in the name of disinfecting your toilet, bathroom and utensils?

Have you once bothered to find out if these bacteria's are feeling terrible pain? We don't even bat an eye that we killed millions of bacteria's just trying to survive. No iota of guilty conscience over a mass murder!

If God could be described in Physical terms, He must be by size at least the size of an average galaxy. (Assuming a single person can build a facility 1000 times bigger than his size). This means that we should be like the size of electrons to God. If God was to be quantified in terms of Age, he must be some trillion years old and by comparison, we humans will be like a transient occurrence.

The point is, if God is infinitely bigger than us, why should He feel anything about consigning " these insignificant rebellious humans" to hell.

You seem to be making my point for me.

First,If God is so infinitely larger than us that he cannot comprehend our feeble emotions, and reasonings and mistakes and triumphs, then why worship such a being that obviously cannot relate with you on a personal level but demands so much as to giving him your entire life?

Second, If God is so infinitely larger than us, why should he care whether we worship him or not, and why should he care about what we do or what we dont do, I dont see humans giving a bat's eye what a bateria does or does not do, infact we dont care and even if those bateria worships us, they would be wasting their time and energy because we would not notice it even a single bit!

Third, You seem to acknowledge that God is tyrannical in his rule over us and noone should question him, but when i say the same thing point black, i am reprimanded by you and others like gaelllic. What is the difference between "God being so great that if you offended him,you would burn for all of eternity" and "God is a tyrant"?

Rebellion against One who is infinitely greater than you may provoke an extreme judgement.

Historically, the greater a king, the more extreme his punishment against rebellion against him. Eg
Vlad Dracula of Wallachia, Roman Crucifixion etc.

The point seems to be "how dare you rebel against your creator!"

Thank you.

You just stated the exact reason for a belief in such a barbaric act.

The originators of the concept of Hell lived in a society where the peasants dare not offend the rich, lords and the kings, if you did, you hands could be chopped off or tongue sliced off or eyes plucked out.

These was the culture and tradition and so when they taught of the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE who is far grander than any king, lord or Noble, they imagined the punishment against such a being would be infinitely greater than what they were accustomed to.

That's how the concept of Hell prevailed, but like many things, these ancient cultures were extremely wrong and primitive so to say, and they imposed their primitiveness on their creator.

Modern day intellectuals like you still hold these primitive ideas that survived from a different time,different world and different culture and defend it even though you know deep within your heart its a barbaric and primitive idea or concept.

But God is not the Father of everybody...but He is the God of everything!

Well,That's still debatable.