[b]And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2


Why do churches try so desperately to court the world's favor? Churches plan their worship services to cater to the "unchurched." Christian performers ape every worldly fad in music and entertainment. Preachers are terrified that the offense of the gospel might turn someone against them, so they deliberately omit the parts of the message the world might not approve of.

Evangelicalism seems to have been hijacked by legions of carnal spin-doctors, who are trying their best to convince the world that the church can be just as inclusive, pluralistic, and broad-minded as the most politically-correct world-ling.

The quest for the world's approval is nothing less than spiritual harlotry. In fact, that is precisely the imagery the apostle James used to describe it. He wrote: "Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God" (James 4:4).

There is and always has been a fundamental, irreconcilable incompatibility between the church and the world. Christian thought is out of harmony with all the world's philosophies. Genuine faith in Christ entails a denial of every worldly value. Biblical truth contradicts all the world's religions. Christianity itself is therefore antithetical to virtually everything this world admires.

Jesus told His disciples, "If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you" (John 15:18-19).

Notice that our Lord considered it a given that the world would despise the church. Far from teaching His disciples to try to win the world's favor by reinventing the gospel to suit worldly preferences, Jesus expressly warned that the quest for worldly accolades is a characteristic of false prophets: "Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for so did their fathers to the false prophets" (Luke 6:26).

He further explained: "The world . . . hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil" (John 7:7). In other words, the world's contempt for Christianity stems from moral, not intellectual, motives: "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed" (John 3:19-20). That is why no matter how dramatically worldly opinion might vary, Christian truth will never be popular with the world.

Yet in virtually every era of church history there have been people in the church who are convinced that the best way to win the world is by catering to worldly tastes. Such an approach has always been to the detriment of the gospel message. The only times the church has made any significant impact on the world are when the people of God have stood firm, refused to compromise, and boldly proclaimed the truth despite the world's hostility. When Christians have shrunk away from the task of confronting popular worldly delusions with unpopular biblical truths, the church has invariably lost influence and impotently blended into the world. Both Scripture and history attest to that fact.

And the Christian message simply cannot be twisted to conform to the vicissitudes of worldly opinion. Biblical truth is fixed and constant, not subject to change or adaptation. Worldly opinion, on the other hand, is in constant flux. The various fads and philosophies that dominate the world change radically and regularly from generation to generation. The only thing that remains constant is the world's hatred of Christ and His gospel.

In all likelihood, the world will not long embrace whatever ideology is in vogue this year. If the pattern of history is any indicator, by the time our great grandchildren become adults, worldly opinion will be dominated by a completely new system of belief and a whole different set of values. Tomorrow's generation will renounce all of today's fads and philosophies. But one thing will remain unchanged: until the Lord Himself returns, whatever ideology gains popularity in the world will be as hostile to biblical truth as all its predecessors have been.


CHRISTIAN VIEW

Reduce your sense of self Luke 9:24-26

True knowledge is from God 1 Cor 3:18

Getting ahead is losing self Matt 6:19-21

Narrow is the way to heaven Matt 7:13-14

Serve others first Matt 21:16

Jesus makes you good 1 John 1:9


SECULAR VIEW

Improve your sense of self
Knowledge is from human thought
Getting ahead is money and power.
Wide is the way of tolerance
Serve self first
Good deeds make you good


1) Sense of Self

3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. 4 Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others. Phil 2:3-4 NKJV

CHRISTIAN: For Christians, the goal is to decrease our sense of self importance and measure ourselves against Jesus and not against worldly standards of personal importance; fame, wealth. Christian view is based on the Biblical principle that we are to deem others more important than ourselves and to be vessels through which the Holy Spirit can do the work of Jesus.


Secular:
Secular view is based on the premise that we are in a position to judge whether or not we are adequate. Also, it is based on the idea that if we make some change we then become worthy. The goal is to increase our sense of self-worth and consequently, our standing in the world.


True Knowledge

18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, 'He catches the wise in their own craftiness' 20 and again, The LORD knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile. 1 Cor 3:18-20 NKJV


CHRISTIAN: Christian view is based on the Biblical principle that while people can share knowledge, experience and hope with each other, as humans we are limited in our ability to understand. Only God sees the big picture and has a plan for each of us. True wisdom comes from God and only God and is written in His Word, the Bible.


Secular:
Secular world view purports that there is a person or persons who has the answer to particular life questions. Their approach is the best and the author is the defining authority on the subject. This lends itself to the guru effect. One person or human approach becoming idolized as the way to solve a problem.


Getting Ahead

15 Do not love this world nor the things it offers you, for when you love the world, you do not have the love of the Father in you. 16 For the world offers only a craving for physical pleasure, a craving for everything we see, and pride in our achievements and possessions. These are not from the Father, but are from this world. 17 And this world is fading away, along with everything that people crave. But anyone who does what pleases God will live forever. 1 John 2:15-17 NLT

CHRISTIAN: Christian view is based on the belief that true success is in accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior who has given us eternal life. The goal is finding humility and grace as a foundation for any earthly accomplishments. The more worldly success we achieve, the more difficult it is to accept our need for God. We tend to see ourselves as the source of our achievements vs. God who gave us all resources for success.

Secular:
Secular view is based on the premise that the more earthly success we achieve, we gain in value as individuals. These successes are defined by the world are fame, riches and power.


Getting to Heaven

13 You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. 14 But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it. Matthew 7:13-14

6 Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me." John 14:6 NLT

CHRISTIAN: Christian view is that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Jesus as Savior means knowing that He died for our sins which opened the door to Heaven for all who believe in Him. Jesus as Lord means following His instruction and example for living as loving believers. This is difficult as it requires denying ourselves of the worldly desires of the flesh.


Secular:
Secular view is based on the belief that it is within each person's power to get themselves to heaven through good behavior. This breeds a tolerance of a wide range of behaviors that the individual may deem acceptable. This tolerance grows as individuals are reluctant to judge others behaviors since they don't want to be judged.

Service

43 But among you it will be different. Whoever wants to be a leader among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever wants to be first among you must be the slave of everyone else. 45 For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve others and to give his life as a ransom for many. Mark 10:43-45 NLT NLT

CHRISTIAN: Christian view is that true success or power is in serving others as Jesus served. His example of humility gives us the standard for putting others first in all things including leadership.


Secular:
Secular view is that having others serve you is a measure or privilege of power, wealth and success.


What Makes Us Good

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9 NLT

CHRISTIAN: Christian view is of our perception of self is based on the Biblical principle that God made us exactly as He intended, but inherent in our humanness is a sinful nature. Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross so that our sins would be forgiven. If we accept Him as our Savior and Lord, we shed our sinful self and become a renewed being...a Christian.

Secular:
Secular view is based on the premise that we are in a position to judge whether or not we are good. And if we deem ourselves good enough, we will go to Heaven.

My last word and prayer is that God by His Spirit will awaken each one of us who are deceived by this fatal error of “secular Christianity” before it is too late, that He will deliver you from the wrath to come, that you may be justified by faith alone in the Lord Jesus Christ-not by the faith that is alone, but by the faith that bears the fruit of good works. For in James 2:17, “Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” This is what I have set before you continuously. The gospel of “carnal Christianity” is a gospel that does not lead to works of righteousness and holiness; and the Scriptures speak plainly: “Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord” (Heb 12:14). [/b]


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CHRISTIAN: Christian view is of our perception of self is based on the Biblical principle that God made us exactly as He intended, but inherent in our humanness is a sinful nature. Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross so that our sins would be forgiven. If we accept Him as our Savior and Lord, we shed our sinful self and become a renewed being...a Christian.

Does it make sense that God created us exactly as he intended but inherent in our humanness is a sinful nature?

That being the case our efforts at overcoming sin, through Jesus or not, is against the intended purpose of God for creating us.

menxer:
CHRISTIAN: Christian view is of our perception of self is based on the Biblical principle that God made us exactly as He intended, but inherent in our humanness is a sinful nature. Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross so that our sins would be forgiven. If we accept Him as our Savior and Lord, we shed our sinful self and become a renewed being...a Christian.

Does it make sense that God created us exactly as he intended but inherent in our humanness is a sinful nature?

That being the case our efforts at overcoming sin, through Jesus or not, is against the intended purpose of God for creating us.

Well said. However the sinful nature created a vacuum and a need in us for answers even when we feel we do not need them. The feeling of completeness is gone and many now embarks on a self search for a meaning to life and what makes him complete and this search stops at the feet of Jesus.

Adam had it all so did not need to search for answers as all he needed was to fellowship. The sinful nature ends once we come to the place of fellowship in Christ. We then receive an ability to resist and live above Sin and the world unlike when we could not tell the difference. So every one born into this world is now born with a need to be complete and to seek it which is where we come in as believers as we preach the gospel to them. Its a prefect arrangement!

4everGod:


Well said. However the sinful nature created a vacuum and a need in us for answers even when we feel we do not need them. The feeling of completeness is gone and many now embarks on a self search for a meaning to life and what makes him complete and this search stops at the feet of Jesus.

Adam had it all so did not need to search for answers as all he needed was to fellowship. The sinful nature ends once we come to the place of fellowship in Christ. We then receive an ability to resist and live above Sin and the world unlike when we could not tell the difference. So every one born into this world is now born with a need to be complete and to seek it which is where we come in as believers as we preach the gospel to them. Its a prefect arrangement!

Meaning the human being God created and the ones alive today are not the same?

When, who or what introduced emptiness or incompleteness into the perfect creation of God that up till now he can't correct, warranting man to seek completeness at the feet of Jesus?

Your argument admits that God makes mistake (incompleteness) or is incapable of correcting a mistake, assuming someone else "introduced" a mistake into his divine equation.

menxer:


Meaning the human being God created and the ones alive today are not the same?

When, who or what introduced emptiness or incompleteness into the perfect creation of God that up till now he can't correct, warranting man to seek completeness at the feet of Jesus?

Your argument admits that God makes mistake (incompleteness) or is incapable of correcting a mistake, assuming someone else "introduced" a mistake into his divine equation.

At the bolded the first man was totally different from the man of today (who is outside Christ) The first man was made in the image and likeness of Go while todays man is made in the image but not the likeness. Likeness means Character and inner traits.

Todays man needs Jesus in order to have the likeness of God seen in and through them. So Jesus is the completeness we need.

God does not make mistakes. He created perfection in Adam which got corrupted and that Corruption had to do with a tampering of a God likeness given to Adam and rendering it less of Gods likeness which being of a spiritual source required a spiritual intervention to correct. The correction came in Jesus Christ and that correction has been done but for this correction to be complete and acceptable, same way first man voluntarily chose to be corrupted is the same way todays man is expected to voluntarily choose to have corruption taken away. By Choice we fell and by Choice we are restored.

We are not Robots and were not created as one and in order to attain the acceptable height of Gods likeness we need to learn how to make the right decisions and choices until it becomes habitual and a life in us and this can only happen if the foundation is first fixed which is a willing desire to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior thereby fixing the corrupted Likeness in man.

4everGod:
[/b]


At the bolded the first man was totally different from the man of today (who is outside Christ) The first man was made in the image and likeness of Go while todays man is made in the image but not the likeness. Likeness means Character and inner traits.

Todays man needs Jesus in order to have the likeness of God seen in and through them. So Jesus is the completeness we need.

God does not make mistakes. He created perfection in Adam which got corrupted and that Corruption had to do with a tampering of a God likeness given to Adam and rendering it less of Gods likeness which being of a spiritual source required a spiritual intervention to correct. The correction came in Jesus Christ and that correction has been done but for this correction to be complete and acceptable, same way first man voluntarily chose to be corrupted is the same way todays man is expected to voluntarily choose to have corruption taken away. By Choice we fell and by Choice we are restored.

We are not Robots and were not created as one and in order to attain the acceptable height of Gods likeness we need to learn how to make the right decisions and choices until it becomes habitual and a life in us and this can only happen if the foundation is first fixed which is a willing desire to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior thereby fixing the corrupted Likeness in man.

Permit me to assume you are technologically inclined, If a programmer creates an app to do a certain task like browse the Internet, and a hacker introduced a malicious code into it, which steals or exposes people's private data, will you, the original programmer, say the app should correct itself or provide an OTA update/upgrade that automatically fixes the hack?

Since the hacker is identified, is it not wisdom to stop the hacker once and for all except the hacker serves a purpose in your greater business plan?

If man was Perfect at creation (which I doubt as knowledge and wisdom was not given him as eating from the tree of knowledge and wisdom was forbidden), why was it so easy for man to be deceived (hacked)?

Meaning man was not created perfect as he lacked wisdom, knowledge and discernment to repel the hack(er) as a browser app with embedded Anti-Malware would an online virus hack.

.

menxer:

Permit me to assume you are technologically inclined, If a programmer creates an app to do a certain task like browse the Internet, and a hacker introduced a malicious code into it, which steals or exposes people's private data, will you, the original programmer, say the app should correct itself or provide an OTA update/upgrade that automatically fixes the hack?

Since the hacker is identified, is it not wisdom to stop the hacker once and for all except the hacker serves a purpose in your greater business plan?

If man was Perfect at creation (which I doubt as knowledge and wisdom was not given him as eating from the tree of knowledge and wisdom was forbidden), why was it so easy for man to be deceived (hacked)?

Meaning man was not created perfect as he lacked wisdom, knowledge and discernment to repel the hack(er) as a browser app with embedded Anti-Malware would an online virus hack.

First of all, man cannot in any way be likened to a computer program as we are gazillions of miles apart. Man has a soul and a computer does not. Man has emotions and a computer does not. A computer program functions within the program embedded while man has freewill. Your comparison would work if a computer had all the attributes found in man but sadly they do not. No program has a soul or emotions or freewill!

The "hacker" in your question has a time frame of existence in accordance with scripture but for now is serving the purpose of thr creator as without him choice would be meaningless on this earth as everything could be said to be good or everything could also be said to be bad.

The "APP " does not have the ability to correct itself as the "APP" functions in a physical capacity outside its inner spiritual workings and when faulty requires access to its spiritual maker to fix its inner spiritual workings.

Can a man commit suicide and kill his body? Yes
Can a man after killing himself also kill his soul ? No

Man or the "APP" is limited within its own program but the spirit is limitless and what the "Hacker" did was to bring the spirit within the limitations of the fleshly man so they became one and the same In their working but Jesus came to restore the original program which clearly separated the fleshly mans workings from the spiritual man of which He is chief.

At creation Adam was perfect and already has knowledge and wisdom especially considering the fact that he named all that was created and tended the garden which in all its diversity required tremendious wisdom and knowledge to achieve. The serpent came to introduce doubt. He caused man to doubt that he already had this knowledge. Knowledge did not come from the tree...its was already in man.

The serpent said "God knows that the moment you eat of this tree you shall be like God" in other words the serpent offered false knowledge and made man assume that the one given to him by God was either not enough or it was limited...but it wasn't.

4everGod:



First of all, man cannot in any way be likened to a computer program as we are gazillions of miles apart. Man has a soul and a computer does not. Man has emotions and a computer does not. A computer program functions within the program embedded while man has freewill. Your comparison would work if a computer had all the attributes found in man but sadly they do not. No program has a soul or emotions or freewill!

The "hacker" in your question has a time frame of existence in accordance with scripture but for now is serving the purpose of thr creator as without him choice would be meaningless on this earth as everything could be said to be good or everything could also be said to be bad.

The "APP " does not have the ability to correct itself as the "APP" functions in a physical capacity outside its inner spiritual workings and when faulty requires access to its spiritual maker to fix its inner spiritual workings.

Can a man commit suicide and kill his body? Yes
Can a man after killing himself also kill his soul ? No

Man or the "APP" is limited within its own program but the spirit is limitless and what the "Hacker" did was to bring the spirit within the limitations of the fleshly man so they became one and the same In their working but Jesus came to restore the original program which clearly separated the fleshly mans workings from the spiritual man of which He is chief.

At creation Adam was perfect and already has knowledge and wisdom especially considering the fact that he named all that was created and tended the garden which in all its diversity required tremendious wisdom and knowledge to achieve. The serpent came to introduce doubt. He caused man to doubt that he already had this knowledge. Knowledge did not come from the tree...its was already in man.

The serpent said "God knows that the moment you eat of this tree you shall be like God" in other words the serpent offered false knowledge and made man assume that the one given to him by God was either not enough or it was limited...but it wasn't.

Speaking in allegory does not mean the object/subject must have the traits of what it is likened to, else bible allegories wouldn't hold true.

If you say man was wise but forbidden to eat of the tree of wisdom, and the wisdom/knowledge from that tree was false, does that add up?
Was the crowning jewel of Eden a tree bearing false fruits, so to speak?

What is the function of wisdom/knowledge, if not to enable one make informed decision/choices yet man lacked wisdom of right and wrong to discern the "deception" of Sat An?

The Bible records that God after creating everything saw that it was "good", not perfect, meaning there was/is room for improvement.

menxer:


Speaking in allegory does not mean the object/subject must have the traits of what it is likened to, else bible allegories wouldn't hold true.

If you say man was wise but forbidden to eat of the tree of wisdom, and the wisdom/knowledge from that tree was false, does that add up?
Was the crowning jewel of Eden a tree bearing false fruits, so to speak?

What is the function of wisdom/knowledge, if not to enable one make informed decision/choices yet man lacked wisdom of right and wrong to discern the "deception" of Sat An?

The Bible records that God after creating everything saw that it was "good", not perfect, meaning there was/is room for improvement.

The tree was not the tree of Wisdom! It was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The good and evil here was not in the tree in itself but the tree was meant to produce knowledge of error which would be separated from the already existing good in Adam if he went ahead and disobeyed the instruction already given against eating of it.

Wisdom is not the ability to choose good over evil...no.

Wisdom is the ability to always do good via obedience to Gods word or Gods instruction as in the case of Adam...This is how God views wisdom and not our earthly idea of evil.

Adam and Eve were created perfect by God, because whatever God makes, is perfect. However, because of their sin, they lost that perfection.

Good is a synonym of Perfect so when God created everything and declared it was good you can replace good with perfect or entire, flawless, intact, sound, unblemished, unbroken, undamaged, unharmed, unhurt, unimpaired, uninjured, unmarred, whole.


God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden to give Adam and Eve a choice to obey Him or disobey Him. Adam and Eve were free to do anything they wanted, except eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 2:16-17, “And the LORD God commanded the man, ‘You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.’” If God had not given Adam and Eve the choice, they would have essentially been robots, simply doing what they were programmed to do. God created Adam and Eve to be “free” beings, able to make decisions, able to choose between good and evil. In order for Adam and Eve to truly be free, they had to have a choice.

There was nothing essentially evil about the tree or the fruit of the tree. It is unlikely that the fruit, in and of itself, gave Adam and Eve any further knowledge. That is, the physical fruit may have contained some vitamin C and some beneficial fiber, but it was not spiritually nutritious. However, the act of disobedience was spiritually deleterious. That sin opened Adam’s and Eve’s eyes to evil. For the first time, they knew what it was to be evil, to feel shame, and to want to hide from God. Their sin of disobeying God brought corruption into their lives and into the world. Eating the fruit, as an act of disobedience against God, was what gave Adam and Eve the knowledge of evil—and the knowledge of their unclothedness (Genesis 3:6–7).

God did not want Adam and Eve to sin. God knew ahead of time what the results of sin would be. God knew that Adam and Eve would sin and would thereby bring evil, suffering, and death into the world. Why, then, did God allow Satan to tempt Adam and Eve? God allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve to force them to make the choice. Adam and Eve chose, of their own free will, to disobey God and eat the forbidden fruit. The results—evil, sin, suffering, sickness, and death—have plagued the world ever since. Adam and Eve's decision results in every person being born with a sin nature, a tendency to sin. Adam and Eve's decision is what ultimately required Jesus Christ to die on the cross and shed His blood on our behalf. Through faith in Christ, we can be free from sin's consequences, and ultimately free from sin itself. Let me echo the words of the Apostle Paul in Romans 7:24-25, “What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!”

4everGod:



The tree was not the tree of Wisdom! It was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The good and evil here was not in the tree in itself but the tree was meant to produce knowledge of error which would be separated from the already existing good in Adam if he went ahead and disobeyed the instruction already given against eating of it.

Wisdom is not the ability to choose good over evil...no.

Wisdom is the ability to always do good via obedience to Gods word or Gods instruction as in the case of Adam... This is how God views wisdom and not our earthly idea of evil.

Adam and Eve were created perfect by God, because whatever God makes, is perfect. However, because of their sin, they lost that perfection.

Good is a synonym of Perfect so when God created everything and declared it was good you can replace good with perfect or entire, flawless, intact, sound, unblemished, unbroken, undamaged, unharmed, unhurt, unimpaired, uninjured, unmarred, whole.


God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden to give Adam and Eve a choice to obey Him or disobey Him. Adam and Eve were free to do anything they wanted, except eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 2:16-17, “And the LORD God commanded the man, ‘You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.’” If God had not given Adam and Eve the choice, they would have essentially been robots, simply doing what they were programmed to do. God created Adam and Eve to be “free” beings, able to make decisions, able to choose between good and evil. In order for Adam and Eve to truly be free, they had to have a choice.

There was nothing essentially evil about the tree or the fruit of the tree. It is unlikely that the fruit, in and of itself, gave Adam and Eve any further knowledge. That is, the physical fruit may have contained some vitamin C and some beneficial fiber, but it was not spiritually nutritious. However, the act of disobedience was spiritually deleterious. That sin opened Adam’s and Eve’s eyes to evil. For the first time, they knew what it was to be evil, to feel shame, and to want to hide from God. Their sin of disobeying God brought corruption into their lives and into the world. Eating the fruit, as an act of disobedience against God, was what gave Adam and Eve the knowledge of evil—and the knowledge of their unclothedness (Genesis 3:6–7).

God did not want Adam and Eve to sin. God knew ahead of time what the results of sin would be. God knew that Adam and Eve would sin and would thereby bring evil, suffering, and death into the world. Why, then, did God allow Satan to tempt Adam and Eve? God allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve to force them to make the choice. Adam and Eve chose, of their own free will, to disobey God and eat the forbidden fruit. The results—evil, sin, suffering, sickness, and death—have plagued the world ever since. Adam and Eve's decision results in every person being born with a sin nature, a tendency to sin. Adam and Eve's decision is what ultimately required Jesus Christ to die on the cross and shed His blood on our behalf. Through faith in Christ, we can be free from sin's consequences, and ultimately free from sin itself. Let me echo the words of the Apostle Paul in Romans 7:24-25, “What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!”

If according to you good is synonymous with perfect, why is wisdom and knowledge not synonymous?

@ bolded, it is safe to infer that lack of wisdom is the inability to always do good via obedience, which by extension means Adam lacked wisdom. Right?

The argument that God knew Adam would sin yet put what would cause Adam to sin close by is shallow, would you place something injurious in your 4 years old child's room with just a warning to the child not to play with it, to test his obedience?

''God knew Adam would sin... "
'God did not want Adam to Sin... "
"God knew the consequences of sin... "
"God allowed Satan to tempt Adam/Eve..."
If God knew all these and did nothing to avert it only to be angry with Adam/Eve is sadistic to say the least.

What is the point of giving man freewill and forbidding him to use it?

author=menxer post=50370913]

If according to you good is synonymous with perfect, why is wisdom and knowledge not synonymous?

@ bolded, it is safe to infer that lack of wisdom is the inability to always do good via obedience, which by extension means Adam lacked wisdom. Right?

How is good the same as wisdom and knowledge when there is evil wisdom and evil knowledge? You see Good is good and if knowledge and wisdom are to be seen through the eyes of good then they must be the good kind of wisdom and knowledge or should i say the God kind of Wisdom and Knowledge.

The argument that God knew Adam would sin yet put what would cause Adam to sin close by is shallow, would you place something injurious in your 4 years old child's room with just a warning to the child not to play with it, to test his obedience?

''God knew Adam would sin... "
'God did not want Adam to Sin... "
"God knew the consequences of sin... "
"God allowed Satan to tempt Adam/Eve..."
If God knew all these and did nothing to avert it only to be angry with Adam/Eve is sadistic to say the least.

You need to understand that perfect obedience is not forced. If you force obedience on anyone then they are obeying because of you and not because they absolutely want to. Perfect obedience can only come via free will and this is what God wants and not a mechanical obedience. [/quote]

What is the point of giving man freewill and forbidding him to use it?

On the contrary God never forbids the use of our free will but desires that we cultivate it positively and merge it with His will which in his position as the Almighty is a perfect one. So to serve a perfect God one needs perfect Obedience not via coercion but via submitting ones own will to His will even when we have free will.

menxer:


Speaking in allegory does not mean the object/subject must have the traits of what it is likened to, else bible allegories wouldn't hold true.

If you say man was wise but forbidden to eat of the tree of wisdom, and the wisdom/knowledge from that tree was false, does that add up?
Was the crowning jewel of Eden a tree bearing false fruits, so to speak?

What is the function of wisdom/knowledge, if not to enable one make informed decision/choices yet man lacked wisdom of right and wrong to discern the "deception" of Sat An?

The Bible records that God after creating everything saw that it was "good", not perfect, meaning there was/is room for improvement.

What happened in Eden had nothing to do with knowledge, Wisdom or perfection. For Adam had all of that, but only didn't know it.
What God was teaching Adam was CONTROL.

In Life, CONTROL IS EVERYTHING.

Adam was given charge of all things in Eden. Everything. Adam had absolute power. What ever he decided to call anything those were their names till today. But God needed to teach him to put that POWER UNDER CONTROL.

Adam, you have the power to do it, it is right there before you, but walk away.

Let me create a scenario for us.

You are a father. A wealthy father. Of course your son can't lack in your house. If it's bread, there's every kind of bread. White bread, brown bread, corn bread, wheat bread, all kinds. Nothing lacking in the house.

Now, you needed to go out, but your son was left free at home. You call him to you and say, " Son, am going out, i"ll be back soon. Everything is at your disposal, only leave the wheat bread, don't touch it. You tell him the consequences shd he touch it. You left.

Sometime later, A stranger comes in talking about the wheat bread you instructed him not to eat. Doubt and mistrust gets planted into your boy. He begins to think, "Daddy doesn't love me as he says he does after all".
For how can he keep me from being like him? Now, he has forgotten that he is indeed like you, for the son of a goat is a goat.
And in a bit to be like you, finds out that he has lost the very essence of his likeness with you. although, still retains the image, but the likeness was gone.

In an attempt to take over your place, he lost the very power that puts him in your place.

In a move to Infringe on Gods sovereignty, he became a rebel who ran away when no one was after him.

Obedience without any room to disobey is not complete obedience.

You most have the power and choice to obey or disobey, without which, you can't truly say you are faithful. You have to choose what to do. You are a free agent not a robot.

This is what makes Christianity the hardest faith to adhere to, because you are enjoined to willingly, acceptably walk away from what you have power to do.
You are told not to Lust after a woman/man, but the woman/man is right there before you. Take your eyes and mind off.

Thou shall not steal, but you're hungry and have no food.

Thou shall not lie; but they said the job is for people whose age range is below 35, and you need this job. so, you have to reduce your age.

When your enemy is hungry, give him food, pray that he prospers even when his prosperity will make your life miserable.

When someone slaps your left cheek, turn the right let him slap; even when the enemy takes advantage and slaps your mum before you, tell your mum to turn the other cheek.


POWER UNDER CONTROL. That was what is was all about.

analice107:

What happened in Eden had nothing to do with knowledge, Wisdom or perfection. For Adam had all of that, but only didn't know it.
What God was teaching Adam was CONTROL.

In Life, CONTROL IS EVERYTHING.

Adam was given charge of all things in Eden. Everything. Adam had absolute power. What ever he decided to call anything those were their names till today. But God needed to teach him to put that POWER UNDER CONTROL.

Adam, you have the power to do it, it is right there before you, but walk away.

Let me create a scenario for us.

You are a father. A wealthy father. Of course your son can't lack in your house. If it's bread, there's every kind of bread. White bread, brown bread, corn bread, wheat bread, all kinds. Nothing lacking in the house.

Now, you needed to go out, but your son was left free at home. You call him to you and say, " Son, am going out, i"ll be back soon. Everything is at your disposal, only leave the wheat bread, don't touch it. You tell him the consequences shd he touch it. You left.

Sometime later, A stranger comes in talking about the wheat bread you instructed him not to eat. Doubt and mistrust gets planted into your boy. He begins to think, "Daddy doesn't love me as he says he does after all".
For how can he keep me from being like him? Now, he has forgotten that he is indeed like you, for the son of a goat is a goat.
And in a bit to be like you, finds out that he has lost the very essence of his likeness with you. although, still retains the image, but the likeness was gone.

In an attempt to take over your place, he lost the very power that puts him in your place.

In a move to Infringe on Gods sovereignty, he became a rebel who ran away when no one was after him.

Obedience without any room to disobey is not complete obedience.

You most have the power and choice to obey or disobey, without which, you can't truly say you are faithful. You have to choose what to do. You are a free agent not a robot.

This is what makes Christianity the hardest faith to adhere to, because you are enjoined to willingly, acceptably walk away from what you have power to do.
You are told not to Lust after a woman/man, but the woman/man is right there before you. Take your eyes and mind off.

Thou shall not steal, but you're hungry and have no food.

Thou shall not lie; but they said the job is for people whose age range is below 35, and you need this job. so, you have to reduce your age.

When your enemy is hungry, give him food, pray that he prospers even when his prosperity will make your life miserable.

When someone slaps your left cheek, turn the right let him slap; even when the enemy takes advantage and slaps your mum before you, tell your mum to turn the other cheek.


POWER UNDER CONTROL. That was what is was all about.

If you have never riden a bicycle, you cannot claim to have knowledge/wisdom of controlling a bicycle in motion.

Please check your dictionary for image/likeness, and stop confusing yourself.
If all that God created was good, how come likeness is so fickle, going by your argument?
Your child cannot lose his likeness of you because he disobeyed you.

Obedience and disobedience are two ends on the freewill-meter. Just like hot and cold on a thermometer, there is no specific point where one ends and the other starts, both are equally good for a purpose.

Adam giving names to things speak to the creativity in human nature. There are things that didn't exist in the time of Adam or in Eden, so he couldn't have given them a name, but as those things were/are "created", names were/are given, like chariots, cars, condom, steel, telephone, VR device, etc.

Besides Adam means Man.

analice107:

What happened in Eden had nothing to do with knowledge, Wisdom or perfection. For Adam had all of that, but only didn't know it.
What God was teaching Adam was CONTROL.

In Life, CONTROL IS EVERYTHING.

Adam was given charge of all things in Eden. Everything. Adam had absolute power. What ever he decided to call anything those were their names till today. But God needed to teach him to put that POWER UNDER CONTROL.

Adam, you have the power to do it, it is right there before you, but walk away.

Let me create a scenario for us.

You are a father. A wealthy father. Of course your son can't lack in your house. If it's bread, there's every kind of bread. White bread, brown bread, corn bread, wheat bread, all kinds. Nothing lacking in the house.

Now, you needed to go out, but your son was left free at home. You call him to you and say, " Son, am going out, i"ll be back soon. Everything is at your disposal, only leave the wheat bread, don't touch it. You tell him the consequences shd he touch it. You left.

Sometime later, A stranger comes in talking about the wheat bread you instructed him not to eat. Doubt and mistrust gets planted into your boy. He begins to think, "Daddy doesn't love me as he says he does after all".
For how can he keep me from being like him? Now, he has forgotten that he is indeed like you, for the son of a goat is a goat.
And in a bit to be like you, finds out that he has lost the very essence of his likeness with you. although, still retains the image, but the likeness was gone.

In an attempt to take over your place, he lost the very power that puts him in your place.

In a move to Infringe on Gods sovereignty, he became a rebel who ran away when no one was after him.

Obedience without any room to disobey is not complete obedience.

You most have the power and choice to obey or disobey, without which, you can't truly say you are faithful. You have to choose what to do. You are a free agent not a robot.

This is what makes Christianity the hardest faith to adhere to, because you are enjoined to willingly, acceptably walk away from what you have power to do.
You are told not to Lust after a woman/man, but the woman/man is right there before you. Take your eyes and mind off.

Thou shall not steal, but you're hungry and have no food.

Thou shall not lie; but they said the job is for people whose age range is below 35, and you need this job. so, you have to reduce your age.

When your enemy is hungry, give him food, pray that he prospers even when his prosperity will make your life miserable.

When someone slaps your left cheek, turn the right let him slap; even when the enemy takes advantage and slaps your mum before you, tell your mum to turn the other cheek.


POWER UNDER CONTROL. That was what is was all about.

this topic has been bothering me for quite sometime now.Thanks a whole lot! You're not an ignorant christian.

AlfaAce:


this topic has been bothering me for quite sometime now.Thanks a whole lot! You're not an ignorant christian.

You welcome, and thanks for your kind words sir.

JESUS IS LORD. Most answers to life's questions is right there in the word, but we need more than the word. The holy spirit is paramount.

@ analice107, @ 4everGod, @ menxer

The difference between the Christian view and the Secular view is that between light and darkness. Its the same choice that Eve had to make in the Garden of Eden.

Its all about Trust and Dependent on the Source (God the Creator).

Satan says:
1 Don't trust God, He doesn't want you to be like Himself
2. When you take the leap, you will truely know ALL things and thus be independent from Him
3. It is actually delicious, God doesn't want you to enjoy yourself

The three above is the system on which the world and secularism is based. Secularity says, let's remove God out of the equation, we can solve our own problems.

Here I rest my case

menxer:


[If you have never riden a bicycle, you cannot claim to have knowledge/wisdom of controlling a bicycle in motion[\quote]

What are you talking about? between the Bicycle and the rider, who controls the motion? Is it the Bicycle that controls the motion or the rider?
Well, i have never ridden a Bicycle before, so i don't really know.


[Please check your dictionary for image/likeness, and stop confusing yourself

There's something you are not getting here. When we talk about God, it will be a mistake for you to quickly run to defining him by the dictionary.

When we say "Man was created in the image and likeness of God", what comes into your mind? Do you quickly picture the frame of a male human in your mind?

If God created Man in His image, the first thing you shd ask is, What is the image of God?

The Bible says God is a Spirit. So the Image of God is SPIRIT.

The image of God is immoral, It is infinite, its indestructible, its invisible and invincible.
If then man is created in Gods Image, then it goes to say, man was created, immortal, invisible, invincible, and infinite.

If man was created in the likeness of God, then man becomes the exact copy or clone of God. Meaning, the physical appearance of man is not the real image of man. Man's true image is Invisible, you can't see him.(This, he lost when he fell).

Remember God created man first before He formed him with clay.

But, God did not create man to live in the realm of the spirit, he was to live in the realm of the material, hence, the body (clay). And, for man to function in his domain, a second dimension was added to him, Consciousness (his soul).

His soul makes him a responsible agent. It allows him to make choices and take decisions without consulting with anyone. His body and soul enabled him interact and function in and with his environment, but his spirit enabled him interact with God, who is a Spirit.

We hear that God came in the cool of the day to fellowship with Man. in what form was he doing that? Was he taking up flesh and appearing visibly for Adam to walk with in Eden? No. He came in a spirit form, and Man who also had a spiritual dimension was able to interact and commune with God.

When Man Fell, he lost his invisibility, his invincibility, and his immortality (These are the attributes of God which gave man God's likeness) He lost them all, thus, got cut off from his source.

So when i say Man retained the image but lost the likeness of God, am not confused.


[If all that God created was good, how come likeness is so fickle, going by your argument? [/quote]
What is your definition of good?

[Your child cannot lose his likeness of you because he disobeyed you.[/quote]
From the scenario i created, If you as a parent knew that the wheat bread you asked your son not to eat contained poison which will harm your son, but your son disobeyed you to eat it, will your love for your son render the potency of the poison in the bread ineffective? If your dies out of the poison, will he have your likeness anymore?


[Obedience and disobedience are two ends on the freewill-meter. Just like hot and cold on a thermometer, there is no specific point where one ends and the other starts, both are equally good for a purpose.[/quote]

I will reiterate. Power under control.

[Adam giving names to things speak to the creativity in human nature. There are things that didn't exist in the time of Adam or in Eden, so he couldn't have given them a name, but as those things were/are "created", names were/are given, like chariots, cars, condom, steel, telephone, VR device, etc.[/quote]
How did man, whether ancient or modern knew to name things? And, you talk about creativity in human nature, how did that come about?

Besides Adam means Man. [/quote]

Yes, Adam means Man, its still doesn't change anything.

Thank God for a new Day

shadeyinka:
@ analice107, @ 4everGod, @ menxer

The difference between the Christian view and the Secular view is that between light and darkness. Its the same choice that Eve had to make in the Garden of Eden.

Its all about Trust and Dependent on the Source (God the Creator).

Satan says:
1 Don't trust God, He doesn't want you to be like Himself
2. When you take the leap, you will truely know ALL things and thus be independent from Him
3. It is actually delicious, God doesn't want you to enjoy yourself

The three above is the system on which the world and secularism is based. Secularity says, let's remove God out of the equation, we can solve our own problems.

Here I rest my case

This is starting to happen to me.I no longer put that God factor into consideration like i used to.I pray God delivers me,I shouldn't have sat down to think about some things and more so i shouldn't have come to this section.indeed,Ignorance is bliss.

AlfaAce:

This is starting to happen to me.I no longer put that God factor into consideration like i used to.I pray God delivers me,I shouldn't have sat down to think about some things and more so i shouldn't have come to this section.indeed,Ignorance is bliss.

Yes, its a good thing you came to this section, for If your faith is not tested, how can you say you are a winner? Have you ever seen a champion who never fought any battle?
To be a champion, you fight and conquer.

To be a winner, you endure and push to the end.

To be victorious, triumphant, and an overcomer, you MUST be tempted and overcome the temptation.

So, yea. Here is a slimy pit full of lying and deceitful demons.

Here is where you'd know if what you have been holding unto since if faith or fear.

Here is where you'd know if you have been sitting in church hoping you'd be a Christian, just like an Agbero sitting in a garage, hoping he'd become a car.

Here is where you would know if indeed you know what it means to be a Christian. It is your Testimony that will sustain you.

If you don't have one, then how did you become a Christian?

Yeah, this is the place to be.

If you are still afraid of looking satan in the face and say 'Get out of here', then question your faith, and toughen up.

Compared to what awaits you in future as a Christian, what these Apostles of Satan do here is a walk in the park.

Be ready.

AlfaAce:

This is starting to happen to me.I no longer put that God factor into consideration like i used to.I pray God delivers me,I shouldn't have sat down to think about some things and more so i shouldn't have come to this section.indeed,Ignorance is bliss.

There is no problem asking about things. I am a practical and pragmatic person by personality. I just don't believe a doctrine, I want to understand why!

The gospel and God is easy to understand if you are sincerely looking forward to clear a misunderstanding.

The world of the Christian is like a battle field. Many times, you do not get what you want under fire of the ememy.

Please check out these two post below and if you are on WhatsApp, you can pm me and we can chat in privacy. I can God willing answer most of your questions.

PART 1:
https://www.nairaland.com/3423081/real-fake-student-university-heaven
PART 2:
https://www.nairaland.com/3436394/how-improve-spiritual-cgpa

Shalom!

shadeyinka:


There is no problem asking about things. I am a practical and pragmatic person by personality. I just don't believe a doctrine, I want to understand why!

The gospel and God is easy to understand if you are sincerely looking forward to clear a misunderstanding.

The world of the Christian is like a battle field. Many times, you do not get what you want under fire of the ememy.

Please check out these two post below and if you are on WhatsApp, you can pm me and we can chat in privacy. I can God willing answer most of your questions.

PART 1:
https://www.nairaland.com/3423081/real-fake-student-university-heaven
PART 2:
https://www.nairaland.com/3436394/how-improve-spiritual-cgpa

Shalom!

I'm not on whatsapp,for now i'm only active on facebook.I'll go through the threads.Thanks.

AlfaAce:

I'm not on whatsapp,for now i'm only active on facebook.I'll go through the threads.Thanks.

OK! When you are through, you can still pm me. We can use the email.

Peace!

analice107:

Yes, its a good thing you came to this section, for If your faith is not tested, how can you say you are a winner? Have you ever seen a champion who never fought any battle?
To be a champion, you fight and conquer.

To be a winner, you endure and push to the end.

To be victorious, triumphant, and an overcomer, you MUST be tempted and overcome the temptation.

So, yea. Here is a slimy pit full of lying and deceitful demons.

Here is where you'd know if what you have been holding unto since if faith or fear.

Here is where you'd know if you have been sitting in church hoping you'd be a Christian, just like an Agbero sitting in a garage, hoping he'd become a car.

Here is where you would know if indeed you know what it means to be a Christian. It is your Testimony that will sustain you.

If you don't have one, then how did you become a Christian?

Yeah, this is the place to be.

If you are still afraid of looking satan in the face and say 'Get out of here', then question your faith, and toughen up.

Compared to what awaits you in future as a Christian, what these Apostles of Satan do here is a walk in the park.

Be ready.

Thank you very much.
What is the need for God to test my faith since he already knows the eventual outcome (being omniscient)?
Does God love me so much to send me to hell if i don't love him back? Even if my deeds are just.
Why must my existence be made a competition between God and satan? Did i ask to be born?
Two Supernatural entities gamble with the soul of a helpless creature like me? Wetin i do?
A man was crucified in a small village in the middle east thousands of years ago,what does that have to do with me? A young boy in Africa,wetin konsine me?.
Out of over 5,000 religions each with their own versions of God/eternity,what make just my own real? I consider another religion as folly,just the way someone else considers mine.
If God knew a soul not going to make heaven,what is the point creating it? He gave us free will,right? An omniscient God gave me freewil cos he already knows what i'll opt for,why should i then suffer for it?
Religion seems like mind control to me but on another hand. How come the bible carries deep messages that relate with our lives,How come end-time prophecies are just coming to pass? So I dunno what to think!

shadeyinka:

OK! When you are through, you can still pm me. We can use the email.
Peace!

alright Boss

AlfaAce:

alright Boss

Check your mail!

AlfaAce:

Thank you very much.
What is the need for God to test my faith since he already knows the eventual outcome (being omniscient)?
Does God love me so much to send me to hell if i don't love him back? Even if my deeds are just.
Why must my existence be made a competition between God and satan? Did i ask to be born?
Two Supernatural entities gamble with the soul of a helpless creature like me? Wetin i do?
A man was crucified in a small village in the middle east thousands of years ago,what does that have to do with me? A young boy in Africa,wetin konsine me?.
Out of over 5,000 religions each with their own versions of God/eternity,what make just my own real? I consider another religion as folly,just the way someone else considers mine.
If God knew a soul not going to make heaven,what is the point creating it? He gave us free will,right? An omniscient God gave me freewil cos he already knows what i'll opt for,why should i then suffer for it?
Religion seems like mind control to me but on another hand. How come the bible carries deep messages that relate with our lives,How come end-time prophecies are just coming to pass? So I dunno what to think!

Sweetheart. I just opened a thread about this same thing, let's meet up there ok? lets talk about it .
The thread is "Are you angry that God created hellfire?

Come in sweetie.