Scholar8200:
Old bottle and old cloth have something in common...THEY ARE OLD!!!

Again he has a point, d quality of ancient fabric meant that u cant mend an old cloth with a new one, if u do d old one will tear d more. but d reason new wine bursts an old wine skin is because when fermentation takes place d wine wil over expand d skin thus bursting it.

Ubenedictus:
He is actually right, wine in ancient times refers to an alcoholic beverage. u are d one who seem ignorant.

Kindly do not quote me without going through this thread and takong advantage of the greek/hebrew guide I gave the link which offered a Greek/Hebrew guide to the original words interpreted as WINE in the Bible and what kind of WINE those words meant.

The argument here is not about if in those days wine was alcoholic the argument is if the one Jesus turned from water was alcoholic and the Greek translation clearly says it wad NOT.

Read and understand before you comment.

Besides the illustration using the old cloth and new patch or new wine in old wineskins was not referring to the intake of wine but wad referring to the embodiment of the Holy Spirit in an unclean old sinful vessel (man). NEW FOR NEW and not NEW FOR OLD thereby destroying the vessel (man).

Ubenedictus:
He is actually right, wine in ancient times refers to an alcoholic beverage. u are d one who seem ignorant.

actually wine at all times has always been an alcoholic beverage. Only in Nigeria will you find people who think there is such thing as none alcoholic wine. A peep in any dictionary will always refer to wine as an alcohol.

Geist:
actually wine at all times has always been an alcoholic beverage. Only in Nigeria will you find people who think there is such thing as none alcoholic wine. A peep in any dictionary will always refer to wine as an alcohol.

Is this thread about alcoholic wine or about the greek word translated as Wine in John 2 when Jesus turned water to wine and what that word meant in reality?

Nobody is disputing the alcoholic content of wine but like I have pointed out wine does not have to be alcoholic to be wine. The alcoholic content in wine is a choice based on large preference but not true nature.

4everGod1:


Is this thread about alcoholic wine or about the greek word translated as Wine in John 2 when Jesus turned water to wine and what that word meant in reality?

Nobody is disputing the alcoholic content of wine but like I have pointed out wine does not have to be alcoholic to be wine. The alcoholic content in wine is a choice based on large preference but not true nature.

first of, there is no such thing as alcoholic wine. To say alcoholic wine means that there has to be some kind of non alcoholic wine, which there isn't. It's like saying there is something like 'perfect peace' as if to say there can be a peace which isn't perfect and that's just not true. Wine itself is an alcohol, no need describing it as 'alcoholic wine' again.
Secondly I was only correcting uben who seemed to think it was only in ancient times that wine was necessarily an alcohol. Again even till today, wine remains an alcohol.
Uh?
Pardon me, I didn't read your second paragraph. Could you please share any number of these alcoholic contents of wine. Never heard of such.

Geist:
first of, there is no such thing as alcoholic wine. To say alcoholic wine means that there has to be some kind of non alcoholic wine, which there isn't. It's like saying there is something like 'perfect peace' as if to say there can be a peace which isn't perfect and that's just not true. Wine itself is an alcohol, no need describing it as 'alcoholic wine' again.
Secondly I was only correcting uben who seemed to think it was only in ancient times that wine was necessarily an alcohol. Again even till today, wine remains an alcohol.

you miss the point entirely. English was derived from ancient languages and in those days certan expressions are above the literal english interpretation of then so we make do with the best possible word to fill the gap.

Wine is made from grapes and in Bible days there is a word which is used when speaking of Wine as grape Juice and that word is Oinos...this word is greek..The greek word that speaks on wine with alcoholic content is known as Shekar..

Wine in those days were seen as 2 different things...one was alcoholic which is when you allowed th grapes to ferment...the other is fresh grape extract which has not fermented hence free from alcoholic content so in order to differentiate them 2 words were brought into play.....OINOS for non alcoholic grape juice (wine) and SHEKAR for alcoholic grape juice (wine) Do you understand now

4everGod1:



you miss the point entirely. English was derived from ancient languages and in those days certan expressions are above the literal english interpretation of then so we make do with the best possible word to fill the gap.

Wine is made from grapes and in Bible days there is a word which is used when speaking of Wine as grape Juice and that word is Oinos...this word is greek..The greek word that speaks on wine with alcoholic content is known as Shekar..

Wine in those days were seen as 2 different things...one was alcoholic which is when you allowed th grapes to ferment...the other is fresh grape extract which has not fermented hence free from alcoholic content so in order to differentiate them 2 words were brought into play.....OINOS for non alcoholic grape juice (wine) and SHEKAR for alcoholic grape juice (wine) Do you understand now

dear, I was not ready to enter into this argument. I was only correcting uben. What you would refer to as non alcoholic wine is in fact not a wine but just grape juice whether in today's world or in ancient times. That was the point me I was driving at and not what the translations of wine are in the Bible. But for sake of curiosity. Where did you get the meaning of these your Greek words? They seem wrong to me.

Mediator97:
This is 2016 years after the death of Christ.

Actually after christ's birth.

Mediator97:
This is 2016 years after the death of Christ.

Actually after christ's birth.

Geist:
dear, I was not ready to enter into this argument. I was only correcting uben. What you would refer to as non alcoholic wine is in fact not a wine but just grape juice whether in today's world or in ancient times. That was the point me I was driving at and not what the translations of wine are in the Bible. But for sake of curiosity. Where did you get the meaning of these your Greek words? They seem wrong to me.

The word WINE in John 2 was translated from the greek word OINOS which means non alcoholic wine but since its a generic word for Wine in greek but never used to replace SHEKAR then the translators simply translated it to WINE which many like you feel it meant ALCOHOLIC WINE when in the original greek it does not.

Google is your tool. you can look up the meaning of Oinos or Shekar and find out which was used in John 2 when wine was mentioned.

4everGod1:



The word WINE in John 2 was translated from the greek word OINOS which means non alcoholic wine but since its a generic word for Wine in greek but never used to replace SHEKAR then the translators simply translated it to WINE which many like you feel it meant ALCOHOLIC WINE when in the original greek it does not.

Google is your tool. you can look up the meaning of Oinos or Shekar and find out which was used in John 2 when wine was mentioned.

My question is where did you get meaning of the Greek word oinos to mean non alcoholic wine simple. Was shekar used used in the Bible? Please don't refer me to Google. Google is more like a referral and not an actual source of knowledge. I want to know your actual source of such information.

4everGod1:



you miss the point entirely. English was derived from ancient languages and in those days certan expressions are above the literal english interpretation of then so we make do with the best possible word to fill the gap.

Wine is made from grapes and in Bible days there is a word which is used when speaking of Wine as grape Juice and that word is Oinos...this word is greek..The greek word that speaks on wine with alcoholic content is known as Shekar..

Wine in those days were seen as 2 different things...one was alcoholic which is when you allowed th grapes to ferment...the other is fresh grape extract which has not fermented hence free from alcoholic content so in order to differentiate them 2 words were brought into play.....OINOS for non alcoholic grape juice (wine) and SHEKAR for alcoholic grape juice (wine) Do you understand now

shekar is a hebrew word not greek..
And if oinos meant non-alcoholic grape juice,how can oinopotes which is derived from oinos mean drunkards?
Can a drinker of juice be addicted and get drunk and be called a drunkard?

raphieMontella:

shekar is a hebrew word not greek..
And if oinos meant non-alcoholic grape juice,how can oinopotes which is derived from oinos mean drunkards?
Can a drinker of juice be addicted and get drunk and be called a drunkard?

See why I say nothing would make a blind man see if he has decided to remain blind? I suggest you read up sone more. I have given you a link previously and you still wish to argue so let me give you another.

http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2008/04-10b.html

raphieMontella:

shekar is a hebrew word not greek..
And if oinos meant non-alcoholic grape juice,how can oinopotes which is derived from oinos mean drunkards?
Can a drinker of juice be addicted and get drunk and be called a drunkard?

Free the Guy na Jesus didn't Turn Water to Alcoholic Wine it Was juice he Turned it into And the Grape juice Was A Good juice because the one they Drank Drunk Before was Just bad Juice which they Got well Drunk on Which actually mean past participle meaning Drinking..

4everGod1:



See why I say nothing would make a blind man see if he has decided to remain blind? I suggest you read up sone more. I have given you a link previously and you still wish to argue so let me give you another.

http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2008/04-10b.html

These are your words

in Bible days there is a word which is used when speaking
of Wine as grape Juice and that word is
Oinos...

OINOS for non alcoholic grape juice (wine) and SHEKAR for alcoholic grape juice
(wine)

these are words from your link

As both yayin and oinos are generic words,
they designate the juice of the grape in all its
stages.

your notion is that oinos means non-alcoholic juice alone..which is wong.

raphieMontella:



These are your words

these are words from your link

your notion is that oinos means non-alcoholic juice alone..which is wong.

No my notion is that Oinos is a generic word for Wine in greek but is not specific for alcoholic wine. I am sure tou read rhe new link I sent you thoroughly and agree with it otherwise you would have raised more objections as you are well known to do.

FSMs:

Free the Guy na Jesus didn't Turn Water to Alcoholic Wine it Was juice he Turned it into And the Grape juice Was A Good juice because the one they Drank Drunk Before was Just bad Juice which they Got well Drunk on Which actually mean past participle meaning Drinking..

From your choice of expressions I would rate you as a guy between 20 and 23 but even a guy in that stage of life is more intelligent and makes more sense then you do in an argument so I wonder if there isnt a deficiency with you upstairs.

Since English isnt your strong side why not start typing in your native dialect and save yourself the embarrassment of not knowing what a past participle is and when it is used in a sentence especially if people in primary 6 know it too well.

DRINK DRANK DRUNK is the order. In a sentence it goes thus;

I drank the left over wine which everyone else drunk yesterday or

I wish I hadnt drunk that wine or

You can drink that wine but make sure it isnt one someone else has already drunk

simply because the word Drunk was used does not mean a drunken state it depicts an act of previois drinking.

its like saying GET GOT GOTTEN or TAKE TOOK TAKEN or RING RANG RUNG


its simple english but I guess for you english isnt so simple.

4everGod1:



No my notion is that Oinos is a generic word for Wine in greek but is not specific for alcoholic wine. I am sure tou read rhe new link I sent you thoroughly and agree with it otherwise you would have raised more objections as you are well known to do.

lol

raphieMontella:

lol

you guys need to carry out an intervention for FSMs aka EyehateGod aka Deicide aka AmenRa and all his other aliasis and help him out with counselling. He is slowly loosing it.

4everGod1:



No my notion is that Oinos is a generic word for Wine in greek but is not specific for alcoholic wine. I am sure tou read rhe new link I sent you thoroughly and agree with it otherwise you would have raised more objections as you are well known to do.

how can you mean what you didn't say?

Geist:
how can you mean what you didn't say?

I am sure the person whom I referred my post to understood it since he began this discourse with me from the start.

4everGod1:



No my notion is that Oinos is a generic word for Wine in greek but is not specific for alcoholic wine. I am sure tou read rhe new link I sent you thoroughly and agree with it otherwise you would have raised more objections as you are well known to do.

Still on the argument I see.
But what makes you believe that the drink which Jesus allegedly produced (miraculously) is certainly a nonalcoholic beverage?

DeSepiero:

Still on the argument I see.
But what makes you believe that the drink which Jesus allegedly produced (miraculously) is certainly a nonalcoholic beverage?

This has already been thrashed out and accepted by one of yours.

in a nutshell...Greek origin of the word for Wine used in John 2 and ots meaning and the what context the word was used.

Easy as pie. A little research goes a long way.

4everGod1:


This has already been thrashed out and accepted by one of yours.

in a nutshell...Greek origin of the word for Wine used in John 2 and ots meaning and the what context the word was used.

Easy as pie. A little research goes a long way.

Considering that the Greek word 'Oinos' could be used for wine (alcoholic beverage) or grape juice (nonalcoholic beverage), my research does not totally rule out the possibility that the drink in question is an alcoholic beverage.

DeSepiero:

Considering that the Greek word 'Oinos' could be used for wine (alcoholic beverage) or grape juice (nonalcoholic beverage), my research does not totally rule out the possibility that the drink in question is an alcoholic beverage.

Suite yourself especially when translators have linked the same word to the word YAYIN then I suggest you cross reference both.

Have fun.

4everGod1:


Suite yourself especially when translators have linked the same word to the word YAYIN then I suggest you cross reference both.

Have fun.

From that site of yours, linking it to Yayin doesn't still erase that possibility because yayin is either fermented or unfermented. We both know fermentation results in alcohol production. So, in essence, Yayin can still have significant amounts of alcohol.

DeSepiero:


From that site of yours, linking it to Yayin doesn't still erase that possibility because yayin is either fermented or unfermented. We both know fermentation results in alcohol production. So, in essence, Yayin can still have significant amounts of alcohol.

Like I said suite yourself. Nobody can convince a person who refuses to be convinced especially when they see themselves as an adversary.

4everGod1:



Like I said suite yourself. Nobody can convince a person who refuses to be convinced especially when they see themselves as an adversary.

I understand you have the need to bow out of this conversation at the moment, but the ad Hominems are unnecessary.
Let's just say I keep an open mind on many issues.
One mustn't close up all possibilities on an issue just to favour or protect ones belief.

GrizzlyBear:
8. Odysseus



Homeric tales about Odysseus emphasize his suffering life, just as in Mark Jesus said that he, too, would suffer greatly. Odysseus is a carpenter like Jesus, and he wants to return his home just as Jesus wants to be welcomed in his native home and later to God’s home in Jerusalem. Odysseus is plagued with unfaithful and dim-witted companions who display tragic flaws. They stupidly open a magic bag of wind while Odysseus sleeps and release terrible tempests which prevent their return home. These sailors are comparable to Jesus’ disciples, who disbelieve Jesus, ask foolish questions, and show general ignorance about everything. It’s amazing that either Odysseus or Jesus ever manage to accomplish anything, given the companions they have, but this simply demonstrates the power and ability of the one true leader who has a divine mandate to lead the people out of darkness and into a brighter future.

Op just bamboozled everyone with fakes ass lies and stories.

Odysseus was the KING of Ithaca a Greek city. Yes its true that his story emphasises on his suffering, but that's because he was COURSED by Poseidon the god of sea and tremor after he ( Odysseus) boasted that I the was him and not the gods that devised a way to destroy Troy. Yes, Odysseus was a king and a warrior, something the Op felled to tells us.

Your comparison with his soldiers and the disciples of Christ is total rubbish!!!! You were just reaching there.

He letter got to his home , killed people and reclaimed his kingdom.

Lol... Dionysus was never born to a virgin girl, Dionysus who was the Greek demi god of wine, vegetation and fertility of nature had a earthly mother who's name was Semele and Zeus bleeped her and she became pregnant. The only of Zeus's children that was of virgin birth was the goddess Athena, and guess what? She sprang out from Zeus's head!!! Not from a woman but from the god's head.

So please stop spreading lies everywhere!!!

I don't know much about the other stories you posted there but I'm sure going to research on them and crash this your lies polluted thread!

DeSepiero:


I understand you have the need to bow out of this conversation at the moment, but the ad Hominems are unnecessary.
Let's just say I keep an open mind on many issues.
One mustn't close up all possibilities on an issue just to favour or protect ones belief.

if you had a belief it would have been different and worth my while but last time I checked Atheism is said to not be a belief. So enjoy your life

GrizzlyBear:
5. Heracles



Heracles is the Son of a god (Zeus). It is recorded that Zeus is both the father and great-great- great grandfather of Heracles, just as Jesus is essentially his own grandpa, being both “The root and offspring of David” (Revelation 22:16) as he is part of the triune God which is the father of Adam and eventually of Jesus. Both are doubly related to the Supreme God.
Diodorus writes that,”For as regards the magnitude of the deeds which he accomplished it is generally agreed that Heracles has been handed down as one who surpassed all men of whom memory from the beginning of time has brought down an account; consequently it is a difficult attainment to report each one of his deeds in a worthy manner and to present a record which shall be on a level with labours so great, the magnitude of which won for him the prize of immortality.”
Jesus is also said to have done a very large number of good works. John 21:25 says that: “Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.”

Hera tries to kill Heracles as an infant by sending two serpents after him, yet Heracles survives by strangling them. This parallels Herod’s slaughter of the innocents in an attempt to kill Jesus (Matthew 2:13-16).
Heracles makes a descent into Hades and returns from it with Theseus and Peirithoüs, just as Jesus descends into the “lower parts of the earth” or Hades (Ephesians 4:7-; Though Jesus does not bring anyone up from it. Heracles’ body is not found and he is assumed to have been taken by the gods:”After this, when the companions of Iolaüs came to gather up the bones of Heracles and found not a single bone anywhere, they assumed that, in accordance with the words of the oracle, he had passed from among men into the company of the gods.”

this is absolute rubbish!!!!! you're thinking that we all are bunch of ignorant folks here? you want to tell me the Christ is a copy of Zeus?? in what way? the 12 labours killing the chimaera? carrying the weight of the earth for a day? killing the hydra snake lol.... you must as dumb as this post to think that there aren't people who know the true account of the Heracles lore.

GrizzlyBear:
5. Heracles



Heracles is the Son of a god (Zeus). It is recorded that Zeus is both the father and great-great- great grandfather of Heracles, just as Jesus is essentially his own grandpa, being both “The root and offspring of David” (Revelation 22:16) as he is part of the triune God which is the father of Adam and eventually of Jesus. Both are doubly related to the Supreme God.
Diodorus writes that,”For as regards the magnitude of the deeds which he accomplished it is generally agreed that Heracles has been handed down as one who surpassed all men of whom memory from the beginning of time has brought down an account; consequently it is a difficult attainment to report each one of his deeds in a worthy manner and to present a record which shall be on a level with labours so great, the magnitude of which won for him the prize of immortality.”
Jesus is also said to have done a very large number of good works. John 21:25 says that: “Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.”

Hera tries to kill Heracles as an infant by sending two serpents after him, yet Heracles survives by strangling them. This parallels Herod’s slaughter of the innocents in an attempt to kill Jesus (Matthew 2:13-16).
Heracles makes a descent into Hades and returns from it with Theseus and Peirithoüs, just as Jesus descends into the “lower parts of the earth” or Hades (Ephesians 4:7-; Though Jesus does not bring anyone up from it. Heracles’ body is not found and he is assumed to have been taken by the gods:”After this, when the companions of Iolaüs came to gather up the bones of Heracles and found not a single bone anywhere, they assumed that, in accordance with the words of the oracle, he had passed from among men into the company of the gods.”

this is absolute rubbish!!!!! you're thinking that we all are bunch of ignorant folks here? you want to tell me the Christ is a copy of Zeus?? in what way? the 12 labours killing the chimaera? carrying the weight of the earth for a day? killing the hydra snake lol.... you must as dumb as this post to think that there aren't people who know the true account of the Heracles lore. smh.