easymancfc:


No Catholic doctrine directly goes against scripture if you understand it properly..
alot of people don't know that there is a difference between a doctrine, a Tradition and a tradition...
if you read what the Catholic Church actually means...
An example is we say we don't worship idols.. people like Splinz say we do.. and he forces it on us...
like I said to him... let God who sees our hearts judge us.. if we all judge people by what we see or what we think they do. everyone will be condemned..

Ok....fair enough.
Will talk later.

MZLady39:

Did he say "all" or some?

Good question.

That brother and his fellow travelers has been making lots of inventions all in my name, confidently peddling lies and assertions which exist only in their head.

Of course, I am not bothered at all. I mean, "inventions" has always been their stocks in trade.

Splinz:


Good question.

That brother and his fellow travelers has been making lots of inventions all in my name, confidently peddling lies and assertions which exist only in their head.

Of course, I am not bothered at all. I mean, "inventions" has always been their stocks in trade.

He said almost all... especially pertaining to rev 6:9... of which is the bone of contention

Splinz:


Good question.

That brother and his fellow travelers has been making lots of inventions all in my name, confidently peddling lies and assertions which exist only in their head.

Of course, I am not bothered at all. I mean, "inventions" has always been their stocks in trade.

Inventions, lies.. LOL.. what makes you think you are worth such attention..

easymancfc:


He said almost all... especially pertaining to rev 6:9... of which m

Go and learn what the bold means. I wouldn't be the one to teach you English too.

Splinz:


Go and learn what the bold means. I wouldn't be the one to teach you English too.

Fact still remains that you said Rev 6:9 is symbolic.. All others don't take away from that...

So don't use English to escape it.

easymancfc:


Fact still remains that you said Rev 6:9 is symbolic..

Have you been able to prove it otherwise?

Splinz:


Have you been able to prove it otherwise?

Go and read earlier comments... the people killed (martyrs) whether in the past ( in the persecution of the early church in Rome and Jerusalem) or middle ages or will be in the future are not symbolic, neither is their cry for vengeance.. point is a dead unconscious soul with the body in the grave cannot cryout for vengeance... you can't be conscious and unconscious at the same time.. ITS THE SIMPLE PRINCIPLE OF NON CONTRADICTION

besides there are many more verses that contradict your heretic theory and many other Christian groups reject it

easymancfc:


Go and read earlier comments... the people killed (martyrs) whether in the past ( in the persecution of the early church in Rome and Jerusalem) or middle ages or WI be in the future are not symbolic, neither is their cry for vengeance.. point is a dead unconscious soul with the body in the grave cannot cryout for vengeance... you can't be conscious and unconscious at the same time.. ITS THE SIMPLE PRINCIPLE OF NON CONTRADICTION

besides there are many more verses that contradict your heretic theory and many other Christian groups reject it

Apart from the fact that you lot are only experts in butchering the truths, as a result of terribly misunderstanding these truths, lack of comprehension skills also posed a serious problem.

Like I've been saying, enjoy your spree of ignorance.

Splinz:


Apart from the fact that you lot are only experts in butchering the truths, as a result of terribly misunderstanding these truths, lack of comprehension skills also posed a serious problem.

Like I've been saying, enjoy your spree of ignorance.

Again you blame it on comprehension ... you say we butcher truth.. I say what gives you the authority to be the "expert" who decides who is right... you say we are ignorant .. I say if in your own ignorance you feel that way.. then enjoy too

MZLady39:



No problem baby brother! I love encouraging folks....especially when I see they are correct.
What I meant by "delivery" was how you can "cut folks" with your tongue....not "what" you say....but "how" you say it. You remember from way back in February (with your "brothers"...
You know my brother that if I disagree with you, I'll tell you.
But let me get off these nice brothers' conversations.

Sorry brother for the slight derailment.
CC: LogicStatement

italo:


Haha! The heretic who said Christians cant pray for others sins to be forgiven has been pushed to a dead end by his own lies.

He'll rather runaway than accept what the Bible says.

1John5:16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.

John20:22 When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

@kabasa77 This is the scriptures italo quoted from the bible to prove you wrong that Christians can pray for other's sins to be forgiving also by the authority given by Jesus in Jn 20:22. You could not prove him wrong because you know the bible is the truth instead, you came up with this fictitious claim you wrote below _v that has nothing to do with the discussion. You are so ignorant of the scriptures.

kabasa77:




Don't be silly Mr... You are the ones who are idol worshippers, worshiping the Queen of Heaven, where in your Bible was your Mary crowned the Queen of Heaven, and what of your silly immaculate birth of Mary?

The Bible have said it, we have only one mediator and intercessor, Jesus, you can pray for your brother here on earth, but you don't pray to those already in heaven to help you, when Jesus is there.. Continue in your folly

It still baffles me when non Catholics say Catholics don't read the bible or know what it contains but so far from this discussion on the topic, it so obvious that you protestants are the ones who don't read the bible but believe whatever your pastors tell you. As an advice please, read the bible with an open mind and allow the Holy Spirit to teach you.

LogicStatement:

Again, my apologies.
I just will get the info from the brother & then exit out of the thread.

easymancfc:


You too

Brother,
Sorry...i know it's late there. I can get the link from you sometime on Friday. Either way, we'll get it. Not staying on tonight. I have to do something.
Take care

[quote author=MZLady39 post=56421100][/quote]

So lets say Mary Magdalene committed fornication after Jesus' death...

You think if Peter forgave her, she isnt forgiven?

You think if Peter retained her sin, it isnt retained?

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MZLady39:


Again, my apologies.
I just will get the info from the brother & then exit out of the thread.

No worries, one love

italo:


So lets say Mary Magdalene committed fornication after Jesus' death...

You think if Peter forgave her, she isnt forgiven?

You think if Peter retained her sin, it isnt retained?

Brother,
I would love to answer your question...however I've been teling the OP that I was gonna be exiting here once the other brother gives me the info.
I won't speak further (on anything else) unless the OP gives me the "go".

MZLady39:


Brother,
I would love to answer your question...however I've been teling the OP that I was gonna be exiting here once the other brother gives me the info.
I won't speak further (on anything else) unless the OP gives me the "go".

Okay.

MZLady39:


Brother,
I would love to answer your question...however I've been teling the OP that I was gonna be exiting here once the other brother gives me the info.
I won't speak further (on anything else) unless the OP gives me the "go".

u don't need my permission to comment here. It's an open forum, pls feel free to contribute

[quote author=LogicStatement post=56485263]
u don't need my permission to comment here. It's an open forum, pls feel free to contribute[/quote

Ok....thanks. Was just trying to respect your thread.

italo:


So lets say Mary Magdalene committed fornication after Jesus' death...

You think if Peter forgave her, she isnt forgiven?

You think if Peter retained her sin, it isnt retained?

Ok...
Peter was both an Apostle & Evangelist (Acts 2:14-40). So Peter had responsibilities pertaining to the administration of the church/people...but not regarding forgiveness of sins.
The particular verse speaking about the "rock" that the church would be built upon refers to Jesus Christ....not Peter (Matthew 16:18).
If Christ had to identify the spirit behind Peter's rebuke of Jesus' mission, (Matthew 16: 22, 23), then that signifies that Peter was fallible and thereby has to obtain forgiveness from Christ just as every other human being
(1 John 1:9).
So "no" Peter would have no authority to forgive or retain Mary Magdalene's sin. She would need to go to her Savior and confess her sins and ask for forgiveness.

MZLady39:



Ok...
Peter was both an Apostle & Evangelist (Acts 2:14-40). So Peter had responsibilities pertaining to the administration of the church/people...but not regarding forgiveness of sins.

The particular verse speaking about the "rock" that the church would be built upon refers to Jesus Christ....not Peter (Matthew 16:18).

Matt 16:17-18 is very clear on this "17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church , and the gates of Hades c will not overcome it."
The bolded in that context shows that Jesus was not referring to Himself as rock but Peter. It should be noted that the English meaning of Peter is 'rock', so Jesus told him that he would build His church on him. Also, it should be noted that Peter did not own the church, the church belongs to Jesus but only built on Peter to lead. That is why Peter is the head of the Apostles and the church of Christ.

If Christ had to identify the spirit behind Peter's rebuke of Jesus' mission, (Matthew 16: 22, 23), then that signifies that Peter was fallible and thereby has to obtain forgiveness from Christ just as every other human being
(1 John 1:9).
So "no" Peter would have no authority to forgive or retain Mary Magdalene's sin. She would need to go to her Savior and confess her sins and ask for forgiveness.

You've just called Jesus a liar. Jn 20:22-23 says "22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” This shows Peter and other apostles have been given the power to forgive sins. Also in Matt 16:19 the authority was given by Jesus to Peter "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be d bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Jesus gave Peter the key to the kingdom of heaven as well as the authority to bind or to loose. Therefore, if Jesus Christ our master said this, who are you to say Peter does not have the authority? Pls don't call Jesus a liar!

MZLady39:



Ok...
Peter was both an Apostle & Evangelist (Acts 2:14-40). So Peter had responsibilities pertaining to the administration of the church/people...but not regarding forgiveness of sins.
The particular verse speaking about the "rock" that the church would be built upon refers to Jesus Christ....not Peter (Matthew 16:18).
If Christ had to identify the spirit behind Peter's rebuke of Jesus' mission, (Matthew 16: 22, 23), then that signifies that Peter was fallible and thereby has to obtain forgiveness from Christ just as every other human being
(1 John 1:9).
So "no" Peter would have no authority to forgive or retain Mary Magdalene's sin. She would need to go to her Savior and confess her sins and ask for forgiveness.

1.. Indeed but Peter also had a separate role to nurture (feed) Christ's sheep and lamb which included the other apostles (john 21:15-18) and was tasked with strengthening his brethren (22:31-32)... Both Roles given to him alone by Christ himself..

2... The power to forgive and retain sins was given by Christ to the apostles not just Peter so anyone of the apostles could forgive Mary Magdalene's sins or anyone else's.. They can do this through Christ with the power he gave them in John 20:21-23

3 The power to Forgive of Sin has nothing to do with Matt 16:18...
And Peter was the rock Christ was talking about to specify Peter's role in his church.. Peter's name was changed from Simon bar Jonah to Kepha in Aramaic and petros when translated into Greek which means rock, (see John 1:42) and in biblical language a name change normally manifests something (as in the case of Abram - Abraham, Sarai - Sarah and Jacob - Israel..

4 Again Fallibility has nothing to do with The Power to forgive sin and like I pointed out, this power was given to all the apostles not just Peter (john 20:23).. Jesus rebuked Peter a long time before He gave them the power to forgive sin.. So Jesus could have purified him and made him and all other apostles who ran away and abandoned Jesus on the cross worthy before he gave them that power.. Besides before then, they had not received the Holy Spirit and like Jesus told them, "receive the Holy Spirit" before he made the declaration that they could forgive or retain sins... REMEMBER THAT THE POWER TO FORGIVE SIN IN HIS NAME (john 20:23) WAS GIVEN AFTER THE RESURRECTION..
On the issue of the man who slept with his step mother at the church in Corinth, Paul says this in 2 cor 2:10 Any one whom you forgive, I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ,
In Mathew 9 when Jesus healed the paraletic.. He did it to prove that he had the authority to forgive sins..
In Mat 9:8 it says "When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men".
TAKE NOTE IT'S SAYS TO MEN, NOT JUST TO THIS MAN (JESUS CHRIST)

Confessing our sins to God is fine.. But the Bible also enjoins us to confess our sins to one another and pray for one another so that we can healed.. IT ALSO SAYS THE PRAYER AND ANOINTING WITH OIL BY THE ELDERS OF WHICH PETER IS (1 Peter 5:1, James 5:15).. WILL BRING HEALING AND FORGIVENESS

LogicStatement:




Matt 16:17-18 is very clear on this "17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church , and the gates of Hades c will not overcome it."
The bolded in that context shows that Jesus was not referring to Himself as rock but Peter. It should be noted that the English meaning of Peter is 'rock', so Jesus told him that he would build His church on him. Also, it should be noted that Peter did not own the church, the church belongs to Jesus but only built on Peter to lead. That is why Peter is the head of the Apostles and the church of Christ.

You've just called Jesus a liar. Jn 20:22-23 says "22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” This shows Peter and other apostles have been given the power to forgive sins. Also in Matt 16:19 the authority was given by Jesus to Peter "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be d bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Jesus gave Peter the key to the kingdom of heaven as well as the authority to bind or to loose. Therefore, if Jesus Christ our master said this, who are you to say Peter does not have the authority? Pls don't call Jesus a liar!

Hold on brother,
We can choose to "agree to disagree" without resorting to accusations.
I don't know who Jesus is to you, but to ME, He's my Lord and Savior. He's the King. He's my friend that sticketh "closer than a brother". He"s my Comforter, Healer & Provider....amongst so many other things.
But what He is NOT....is a liar which I did not call Him that nor would I ever, ever...
He is not man that He should lie.
Now you may call me anything you'd like (for that I cannot control..)....but please don't wrongly use the interpretation of scripture to allege what you "think" I may have said...
That wasn't fair of you to say..
Peace my brother

MZLady39:


Hold on brother,
We can choose to "agree to disagree" without resorting to accusations.
I don't know who Jesus is to you, but to ME, He's my Lord and Savior. He's the King. He's my friend that sticketh "closer than a brother". He"s my Comforter, Healer & Provider....amongst so many other things.
But what He is NOT....is a liar which I did not call Him that nor would I ever, ever...
He is not man that He should lie.
Now you may call me anything you'd like (for that I cannot control..)....but please don't wrongly use the interpretation of scripture to allege what you "think" I may have said...
That wasn't fair of you to say..
Peace my brother

Thank God you know Jesus can't lie. So, do u accept Jn 20:20-23 that Peter & the apostles were given the authority to forgive (or withhold) sin?

LogicStatement:

Thank God you know Jesus can't lie. So, do u accept Jn 20:20-23 that Peter & the apostles were given the authority to forgive (or withhold) sin?

Brotherrrrr......
Nope...I don't accept that.
So that means 1 of us is wrong

MZLady39:


Brotherrrrr......
Nope...I don't accept that.
So that means 1 of us is wrong

John 20:23 is pretty clear.. With Jesus Christ speaking directly to his disciples, there's no parable, no hyperbole, no metaphor, no big statements...

IT IS JESUS 'S WORDS SO IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT, YOU DON'T BELIEVE WHAT JESUS DECLARED... AND THE WORD OF GOD DOES NOT RETURN TO GOD WITHOUT ACHIEVING IT'S PURPOSE...
THEREFORE, IF JESUS SAYS THEY CAN FORGIVE OR RETAIN SINS, THEN THEY CAN PERIOD...

someone once said that it means they can only DECLARE SOMEONE FORGIVEN, but can't actually forgive sin that my Bible translation had a problem... but all Bible valid Bible translations use "IF YOU FORGIVE/REMIT" NOT "DECLARE FORGIVEN"

New International Version
If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
New Living Translation
If you forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven. If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
English Standard Version
If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”
Berean Study Bible
If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld."
Berean Literal Bible
If you might forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you might retain any, they are retained."
New American Standard Bible
"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."
King James Bible
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
International Standard Version
If you forgive people's sins, they are forgiven. If you retain people's sins, they are retained."
NET Bible
If you forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven; if you retain anyone's sins, they are retained."
New Heart English Bible
Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“If you will forgive a man's sins, they will be forgiven him, and if you hold a man's, they will be held.”
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Whenever you forgive sins, they are forgiven. Whenever you don't forgive them, they are not forgiven."
New American Standard 1977
“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
Jubilee Bible 2000
unto those whose sins ye release, they shall be released; and unto those whose sins ye retain, they shall be retained.
King James 2000 Bible
Whosoever's sins you remit, they are remitted unto them; and whosoever's sins you retain, they are retained.
American King James Version
Whose soever sins you remit, they are remitted to them; and whose soever sins you retain, they are retained.
American Standard Version
whose soever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them; whose soever'sins ye retain, they are retained.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
Darby Bible Translation
whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them; whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.
English Revised Version
whose soever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Webster's Bible Translation
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Weymouth New Testament
If you remit the sins of any persons, they remain remitted to them. If you bind fast the sins of any, they remain bound."
World English Bible
Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
Young's Literal Translation
if of any ye may loose the sins, they are loosed to them; if of any ye may retain, they have been retained.'

http://biblehub.com/john/20-23.htm

easymancfc:


John 20:23 is pretty clear.. With Jesus Christ speaking directly to his disciples, there's no parable, no hyperbole, no metaphor, no big statements...

IT IS JESUS 'S WORDS SO IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT, YOU DON'T BELIEVE WHAT JESUS DECLARED... AND THE WORD OF GOD DOES NOT RETURN TO GOD WITHOUT ACHIEVING IT'S PURPOSE...
THEREFORE, IF JESUS SAYS THEY CAN FORGIVE OR RETAIN SINS, THEN THEY CAN PERIOD...

Yes...if I offend someone knowingly or unknowingly, then I should go to them, apologize and ask for forgiveness (James 5:16).
The bigger issue would be to figure out why I would keep committing the same sins repeatedly? Anger issues, envy issues, unforgiveness issues, deception issues, gluttony, theft issues, sexual issues etc.
Now who has the power to give me victory in those areas?
Am I gonna confess to Peter each time....who can't give me victory over them.
All he's doing is listening and making me feel good for the moment...then I keep repeating the cycle.
If I commit adultery (if I were married), then guess who should be involved in my confession?
My (future husband) & God!
Peter (who as much as I truly loved reading about that disciple & hope to meet him and King David in the kingdom one day), has nothing to do with listening to or retaining a confession from me to him about my personal & private sin.
That wouldn't be any of his business...neither would he be able to do anything for me but point me to the Lord who does this...(1 John 1:9) for ALL of my sins....if I'm willing to give them to Him.
Ok....brother. But if you believe differently then....

MZLady39:


Yes...if I offend someone knowingly or unknowingly, then I should go to them, apologize and ask for forgiveness (James 5:16).
If I commit adultery (if I were married), then guess who should be involved in my confession?
My (future husband) & God!
Peter (who as much as I truly loved reading about that disciple & hope to meet him and King David in the kingdom one day), has nothing to do with listening to or retaining a confession from me to him about my personal & private sin.
That wouldn't be any of his business...neither would he be able to do anything for me but point me to the Lord who does this...(1 John 1:9)
Ok....brother. But if you believe differently then....

Quoting out of context.. Jesus was speaking specifically to his apostles.. not everyone of us...

secondly the Lord's prayer covers the forgive us as we forgive others part...

JESUS WAS MAKING A SEPARATE DECLARATION FROM FORGIVING EACH OTHER, THE CONTEXT IS DIFFERENT..

John 20:21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
this is what preceded the declaration..

Jesus gave his disciples power to do many things, Teach, baptize (mat 28:15-20), preach, baptize, cast out demons, heal (mark 16: 15-18) and to FORGIVE SINS (john 20:23) before he ascended and they did all of that... NO EXCEPTIONS

easymancfc:


Quoting out of context.. Jesus was speaking specifically to his apostles.. not everyone of us...

secondly the Lord's prayer covers the forgive us as we forgive others part...

JESUS WAS MAKING A SEPARATE DECLARATION FROM FORGIVING EACH OTHER, THE CONTEXT IS DIFFERENT..

John 20:21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
this is what preceded the declaration..

Jesus gave his disciples power to do many things, Teach, baptize (mat 28:15-20), preach, baptize, cast out demons, heal (mark 16: 15-18) and to FORGIVE SINS (john 20:23) before he ascended and they did all of that... NO EXCEPTIONS

Brother....ok.
So since the disciples are all deceased, we now have another human being to take up their roles
Let's agree to disagree.
It's unfortunate that we couldn't come to a mutual understanding.
Thanks for the discussion though