MZLady39:


Yes...if I offend someone knowingly or unknowingly, then I should go to them, apologize and ask for forgiveness (James 5:16).
The bigger issue would be to figure out why I would keep committing the same sins repeatedly? Anger issues, envy issues, unforgiveness issues, deception issues, gluttony, theft issues, sexual issues etc.
Now who has the power to give me victory in those areas?
Am I gonna confess to Peter each time....who can't give me victory over them.
All he's doing is listening and making me feel good for the moment...then I keep repeating the cycle.
If I commit adultery (if I were married), then guess who should be involved in my confession?
My (future husband) & God!
Peter (who as much as I truly loved reading about that disciple & hope to meet him and King David in the kingdom one day), has nothing to do with listening to or retaining a confession from me to him about my personal & private sin.
That wouldn't be any of his business...neither would he be able to do anything for me but point me to the Lord who does this...(1 John 1:9) for ALL of my sins....if I'm willing to give them to Him.
Ok....brother. But if you believe differently then....

Maybe you don't know this, but people came confessing their sins to the apostles and the crowd... (Acts 19:18)

James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed..

it says ONE ANOTHER.. NOT JUST THE OFFENDED PARTY OR "YOUR HUSBAND" ALONE.. AND "PRAY" FOR ONE ANOTHER...

you seem to think forgiveness was the only power they were given.. they were also given power to retain sins..

the Lord's prayer says forgive us as we forgive others..

Do you think everyone has the right TO RETAIN SINS??

IF EVERYONE DOES, DO YOU THINK GOD WILL HOLD IT AGAINST THEM..

MZLady39:


Brother....ok.
So since the disciples are all deceased, we now have another human being to take up their roles
Let's agree to disagree.
It's unfortunate that we couldn't come to a mutual understanding.
Thanks for the discussion though

NO... THE WORK OR MISSION DIDN'T END WHEN THE APOSTLES DIED. ...
The apostles could pass on the power given to them by laying hands on others..
Remember Jesus said mat 28: 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

He said Till the end of the age.. and he and they knew that they would not be alive till the end of the age...


All Apostolic men had stewards who took their place upon dead.. Paul had Timothy,Titus, etc Peter had Mark, Clement, Cletus, Linus etc and they were also tasked with passing it on..
2 Tim 2:2 and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

like I said, the power is passed on by laying on of hands
2 tim 1:6 Hence I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of MY HANDS; 7 for God did not give us a spirit of timidity but a spirit of power and love and self-control.
TAKE NOTE OF MY HANDS
1 Tim 4:14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the elders laid their hands upon you

PAUL HIMSELF HAD HANDS LAID ON HIM BEFORE HE WENT ON HIS MISSIONARY JOURNEYS

Acts 13:2b “Set apart for me Barnabas and SAUL for the work to which I have called them.” 3 Then after fasting and praying THEY LAID THEIR HANDS on them and sent them off.

easymancfc:


NO... THE WORK OR MISSION DIDN'T END WHEN THE APOSTLES DIED. ...
The apostles could pass on the power given to them by laying hands on others..
Remember Jesus said mat 28: 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

He said Till the end of the age.. and he and they knew that they would not be alive till the end of the age...


All Apostolic men had stewards who took their place upon dead.. Paul had Timothy,Titus, etc Peter had Mark, Clement, Cletus, Linus etc and they were also tasked with passing it on..
2 Tim 2:2 and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

like I said, the power is passed on by laying on of hands
2 tim 1:6 Hence I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of MY HANDS; 7 for God did not give us a spirit of timidity but a spirit of power and love and self-control.
TAKE NOTE OF MY HANDS
1 Tim 4:14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the elders laid their hands upon you

PAUL HIMSELF HAD HANDS LAID ON HIM BEFORE HE WENT ON HIS MISSIONARY JOURNEYS

Acts 13:2b “Set apart for me Barnabas and SAUL for the work to which I have called them.” 3 Then after fasting and praying THEY LAID THEIR HANDS on them and sent them off.

I was only speaking about the disciples' "forgiving & retaining" sins. That is my issue.
Not the other roles.

easymancfc:


Maybe you don't know this, but people came confessing their sins to the apostles and the crowd... (Acts 19:18)

James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed..

it says ONE ANOTHER.. NOT JUST THE OFFENDED PARTY OR "YOUR HUSBAND" ALONE.. AND "PRAY" FOR ONE ANOTHER...

you seem to think forgiveness was the only power they were given.. they were also given power to retain sins..

the Lord's prayer says forgive us as we forgive others..

Do you think everyone has the right TO RETAIN SINS??

IF EVERYONE DOES, DO YOU THINK GOD WILL HOLD IT AGAINST THEM..

Brother,
I thought I had differentiated between the role of humans forgiving each other as opposed to Christ doing the ultimate forgiveness & cleansing.
Who do you confess your sins to?

MZLady39:



I was only speaking about the disciples' "forgiving & retaining" sins. That is my issue.
Not the other roles.

Forgiving Sin is part of the package they were given.. and they could pass everything on.. the Power they were passing did not exclude John 20:23.. Or do you have where it is written that Laying on of hands could pass Preaching, healing, baptizing but not forgiving sin?

easymancfc:


Forgiving Sin is part of the package they were given.. and they could pass everything on.. the Power they were passing did not exclude John 20:23.. Or do you have where it is written that Laying on of hands could pass Preaching, healing, baptizing but not forgiving sin?

So who's forgiving sins now?

MZLady39:


Brother,
I thought I had differentiated between the role of humans forgiving each other as opposed to Christ doing the ultimate forgiveness & cleansing.
Who do you confess your sins to?

No you have not... you seem to emphasize forgiveness as a power we all have.. to forgive those who offend us.. but John 20:23 Also includes a power to retain sins which Jesus also gives to humans (the apostles ).. Are we also free to retain sins, and if we do, will God hold it against us

MZLady39:


So who's forgiving sins now?

Whoever has the line of ordination back to the apostles ... who had the original power and passed it on to their successors

easymancfc:


No you have not... you seem to emphasize forgiveness as a power we all have.. to forgive those who offend us.. but John 20:23 Also includes a power to retain sins which Jesus also gives to humans (the apostles ).. Are we also free to retain sins, and if we do, will God hold it against us

Havr you ever offended someone and not only apologized but asked for their forgiveness?
I'm not calling that "power". The power that Christ has.

easymancfc:


Whoever has the line of ordination back to the apostles ... who had the original power and passed it on to their successors

And that my brother....is where we will forever disagree....

MZLady39:



Havr you ever offended someone and not only apologized but asked for their forgiveness?
I'm not calling that "power". The power that Christ has.

Refusing to forgive someone is a different case, and God condemns it.. The beatitudes say blessed are the merciful. for they shall have mercy shown them.. So if I don't show mercy to those who offend me, I might not have mercy shown to me..

You are making an assumption that Jesus was saying if anyone offended the disciples...
John 20:23 says if you forgive ANYONE... not if you forgive those who offend you...

THE DISCIPLES WERE GIVEN POWER TO RETAIN SINS.. NOT JUST NOT FORGIVE SOMEONES SIN...

easymancfc:


Refusing to forgive someone is a different case, and God condemns it.. The beatitudes say blessed are the merciful. for they shall have mercy shown them.. So if I don't show mercy to those who offend me, I might not have mercy shown to me..

You are making an assumption that Jesus was saying if anyone offended the disciples...
John 20:23 says if you forgive ANYONE... not if you forgive those who offend you...

THE DISCIPLES WERE GIVEN POWER TO RETAIN SINS.. NOT JUST NOT FORGIVE SOMEONES SIN...

So your goal is to do what my brother?

MZLady39:



And that my brother....is where we will forever disagree....

If the disciples/apostles could lay hands on faithful men to bring them into God's service, (2 tim 2:2, 2 Tim 1:6-7), It shows that the apostles could ordain successors.. and their successors could do the same.. forming a chain of ordination...
Just like our ancestors gave birth to their children who gave birth to theirs and so on until our grandparents and to our parents and to us and the Chain continues until the end of the world...

Remember mat 28:20.. lo, I will be with you till the end of the age...

and like Paul says in Ephesians 3:21
New International Version
to him be glory in the church and in Christ
Jesus throughout all generations, for ever
and ever! Amen.
New Living Translation
Glory to him in the church and in Christ
Jesus through all generations forever and
ever! Amen.

MZLady39:


So your goal is to do what my brother?

To show that the disciples were given the power to forgive and retain sins John 20:23, just like they were given power to preach, baptize, speak in tongue, heal etc

easymancfc:


To show that the disciples were given the power to forgive and retain sins John 20:23, just like they were given power to preach, baptize, speak in tongue, heal etc

Brother....sorry but I cannot agree with that
Now I'm tired. The discussion's gone on long enough don't you think?
This has been very interesting though.
Thanks for your time

1

MZLady39:



Brother....sorry but I cannot agree with that
Now I'm tired. The discussion's gone on long enough don't you think?
This has been very interesting though.
Thanks for your time

the whole issue boils down... to Authority..
One or two Persons interpretation of scripture... or what the early Christians believed and the Church has believed since the beginning..

Thanks for your Time also.. have a good night

kabasa77:


I guess you don't read the Bible, read it and gain knowledge, I answered u by giving you Bible verses that point to Jesus and only Jesus as the mediator and intercessor for Christian having made a public show of principalities and powers and is seated at the right hand of the Father making intercessions for us..

Only one mediator is true in three senses: There is only one who is by nature a mediator, having both divine and human natures; there is only one whose mediation is strictly needed; there is only one who can mediate by His own power. Every other mediation is really only a sharing in the one mediation of Jesus Christ.

Others, including Our Lady and the Saints, can act only by His power. So to say they do it does not detract from Him, but rather shows the greatness of His power in that He can even make creatures capable of doing something, not of course the same as what He does, as we have said.

MZLady39:


Brotherrrrr......
Nope...I don't accept that.
So that means 1 of us is wrong

Funny you! It's either u know it's the truth & u'v decided to close your eyes to it or u don't understand the English. If the former is correct, sorry, your case is worse than the man who has not being preached to, & if the later is the case, u need to read that passage again in a bible written in your local language. May the Holy Spirit help u

kabasa77:


And where is it written that the dead should interceded for the living.

But the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

Thus in Psalm 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalm 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2)

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:. Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

Jesus himself warned us not to mess with small children because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven." (Matt. 18:10).

MZLady39:


Hold on brother,
We can choose to "agree to disagree" without resorting to accusations.
I don't know who Jesus is to you, but to ME, He's my Lord and Savior. He's the King. He's my friend that sticketh "closer than a brother". He"s my Comforter, Healer & Provider....amongst so many other things.
But what He is NOT....is a liar which I did not call Him that nor would I ever, ever...
He is not man that He should lie.
Now you may call me anything you'd like (for that I cannot control..)....but please don't wrongly use the interpretation of scripture to allege what you "think" I may have said...
That wasn't fair of you to say..
Peace my brother

He did not accuse you wrongly. He said exactly what you are doing. Calling Jesus a liar albeit indirectly.

This is akin to the notion JW and Moslems have of Jesus as just a son and prophet respectively, they deny him his status as God contrary to the scriptures and yet they claim to love him more.

"Recieve the Holy Spirit. If you forgive/retain anybody's sins, they are forgiven/retained."

<<Jesus>>

Not us.

LogicStatement:

Funny you! It's either u know it's the truth & u'v decided to close your eyes to it or u don't understand the English. If the former is correct, sorry, your case is worse than the man who has not being preached to, & if the later is the case, u need to read that passage again in a bible written in your local language. May the Holy Spirit help u

Brothers,
Thank you guys for your discussions, suggestions, explanations and advice etc.
Lol....my main and fluent language is English so I understand.
Unfortunately, I don't know any Igbo (my dad's tribe...which would be the "local" language) if I lived in Nigeria.
Actually, my first degree was in English.
So hopefully we were all reading English in our Bibles at least for these discussions we had....
And yes I know the truth...and may the Holy Spirit guide us into ALL truth

Cc: jnrybayano
easymancfc

MZLady39:


Brothers,
Thank you guys for your discussions, suggestions, explanations and advice etc.
Lol....my main and fluent language is English so I understand.
Unfortunately, I don't know any Igbo (my dad's tribe...which would be the "local" language) if I lived in Nigeria.
Actually, my first degree was in English.
So hopefully we were all reading English in our Bibles at least for these discussions we had....
And yes I know the truth...and may the Holy Spirit guide us into ALL truth

Cc: jnrybayano
easymancfc

OK, explain how u understand Jn 20:23

LogicStatement:

OK, explain how u understand Jn 20:23

Brother,
Our discussion has come to an end.
Let's pray for the Holy Spirit to help us (or rather anyone who may be having difficulty) interpret all of the scriptures properly that were mentioned during our discussion....especially John 20:23.
It's very important to read "line upon line" "precept upon precept"...not just one scripture verse

LogicStatement:

OK, explain how u understand Jn 20:23

Website link deleted....new one coming.

MZLady39:


Brother,
Our discussion has come to an end.
Let's pray for the Holy Spirit to help us (or rather anyone who may be having difficulty) interpret all of the scriptures properly that were mentioned during our discussion....especially John 20:23.
It's very important to read "line upon line" "precept upon precept"...not just one scripture verse

You are expressing yourself this way because you've been boxed to the corner with the truth smeared to your face. Even if u read the whole John 20 from the start to the end, it doesn't change the truth that Jesus breathed on them (apostles) & gave them the authority to forgive or retain sin. Don't hardened your heart to the truth dear. Bye....

LogicStatement:

You are expressing yourself this way because you've been boxed to the corner with the truth smeared to your face. Even if u read the whole John 20 from the start to the end, it doesn't change the truth that Jesus breathed on them (apostles) & gave them the authority to forgive or retain sin. Don't hardened your heart to the truth dear. Bye....

But you want to continue debating brother..post after post...day after day.
Why o why?
The "truth smeared to my face"?
Lol...are you a baby?
Anyhow, I sent you a link that may explain it better than I.
Take care

MZLady39:


But you want to continue debating brother..post after post...day after day.
Why o why?
The "truth smeared to my face"?
Lol...are you a baby?
Anyhow, I sent you a link that may explain it better than I.
Take care

Yes, I'm baby. Are u satisfied now? Does that soften your heart? I guess not. U claimed to read English, yet u can't read the bible to understand simple English but u brought up a link where u'v being brainwashed to believe what they want u to believe. Sorry, the scriptures & the teachings of the apostles suffice for me with the help of the Holy Spirit. Bye bye...May the Lord help u to soften your heart to believe the truth

*pls don't reply, just ruminate on Jn 20:23 & ask God to interpret it to u in your quiet time

MZLady39:


Here's a website with a good explanation for your question my brother.

https://www.gotquestions.org/John-20-23.html

Gotquestion.com is owned by a Calvinist heretic called Michael Houdmann so that influences all his "Answers". His OSAS corrupts all of his theology.. So I would not trust anything on that site. even fellow evangelicals disagree with his scriptural interpretations... Besides gotquestions is not the infallible interpreter of scripture

easymancfc:


Gotquestion.com is owned by a Calvinist heretic called Michael Houdmann so that influences all his "Answers". His OSAS corrupts all of his theology.. So I would not trust anything on that site. even fellow evangelicals disagree with his scriptural interpretations... Besides gotquestions is not the infallible interpreter of scripture

Don't mind her. Gotquestion that has been disapproved by many theologians to contain heretics, no wonder she's twisting straightforward scriptures like him. When Christians don't have a mind of their own, they resort to "my pastor says" while their pastorpreneur buy private jets

easymancfc:


Gotquestion.com is owned by a Calvinist heretic called Michael Houdmann so that influences all his "Answers". His OSAS corrupts all of his theology.. So I would not trust anything on that site. even fellow evangelicals disagree with his scriptural interpretations... Besides gotquestions is not the infallible interpreter of scripture

Hi my brother,
I will admit that I didn't do a thorough research behind the author of the website before I quickly posted it here. I did, however quickly glance over the explanation and thought it was an acceptable one. I don't know all of the author's views....which may or may not be correct. Trying to "totally discredit" someone because some of the person's views may be wrong....is unChristlike.

But on this particular point (which is what WE are discussing) about the "apostles having the authority to forgive & retain sins"....I totally agree with the author.
Since our brother, LogicStatement, was having a "temper tantrum" I was quickly trying to get him an explanation that was clearer than mine...since he wasn't satisfied with what I was saying.
You know...believe it or not...there are some doctrinal points that we, who profess Christ to others, can agree on.
Each denomination, as I have previously stated, has some correct interpretation of scripture.
You guys love the art of debate (and feeling superior)...and you want to "force" people to believe your views (don't worry...you aren't the only ones in the Religion Section doing that).
This is such a bad look for people of other religions....or who have abandoned Christianity (a.k.a "the Free-thinkers).
We can't agree on anything
I keep saying that Christianity is supposed to be a "heart transformation" religion.
I came on this thread to encourage Splinz....not just here but moreso for another thread he was on.
I tried to gracefully bow out..yet you guys continued on in an effort to "win" a fuel-driven debate.
Now what exactly were you guys initially discussing before I came in here?

Brothers...I love you guys....but you didn't convince me anymore than I convinced you (which wasn't my ultimate gain).
It's now the Holy Spirit's job to step in and show all of us.
Now I will post an explanation that may be more thorough for you. I will not engage in a debate about the info I will post or anything else.
The horse has been beaten to death. He's dead my brothers....let him rest in peace.
If you guys want to attack authors' credibility behind a particular writing instead of reading through, humbly praying for the Holy Spirit to guide you into understanding (because we don't know it all), then so be it.
Brothers, you guys should be careful about judging folks...and you should know better.
Especially with the reputations that Catholics have received for generations.....
I have a soft spot for Catholics...especially since some of my family members, although nominal, are members. I know they believe Christ is their Lord and Savior....
Again, thanks for the discussion.
I'll be seeing you guys around NL (or another thread) I'm sure

John 20:23

Author: Ángel Manuel Rodríguez
What did Jesus have in mind when, according to John 20:23, He gave His disciples authority to forgive sins?

This passage has been debated for centuries, particularly during and after the Protestant Reformation. Forgiveness of sin is essentially an act of divine grace toward rebellious creatures made possible through the costly sacrifice of Jesus. Whatever conclusion we reach on the meaning of this text, we have to remain within that particular understanding.
1. Forgiveness and Personal Offenses: God's forgiving disposition is expected to be practiced by human beings. Jesus said: "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him" (Luke 17:3, 4).* This generous spirit is modeled after God's infinite disposition to forgive us our sins: "Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you" (Eph. 4:32).
2. Forgiveness and Church Discipline: Although the verb "to forgive" is not employed in Matthew 16:19 and 18:18, the context of the last verse suggests that the authority to "bind" and to "loose" includes the idea of disciplining members or forgiving the offenses of those who repented. This responsibility was given to the church and not to a particular individual within the church. It is true that at first Jesus was addressing Peter (Matt. 16:19), but the same was said to the disciples (Matt. 18:18) and through them to the church. The text could be translated literally: "Whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven." The church's decision must reflect a decision previously made in heaven. This is possible only through a knowledge of God's will as revealed in the Scriptures.
3. Forgiveness and the Proclamation of the Gospel: John 20:23 does not seem to fit either of the two previous cases. Yes, Jesus is addressing the disciples, but they stand in the text as representatives of the church(es). Through them Jesus is instructing the church.
First, we must examine the context. After the Resurrection Jesus appears to the disciples, greets them, and says, "As the Father has sent me, I am sending you" (John 20:27). Then He gives them the Holy Spirit. Jesus is commissioning the disciples, incorporating them into the mission the Father entrusted to Him. They are empowered through the Spirit: "If they forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven" (verse 23). They are to go out to the world and forgive or not forgive sins.
Second, there is nothing in the text to suggest that Jesus is instituting the ecclesiastical practice of auricular confession, or the absolution of postbaptismal sins by a church officer. Those are later developments in the life of the postapostolic church and should not be read into this text.
Third, John knows that when we confess our sins to God they are forgiven through Christ (1 John 1:9). Christ continues to be our atoning sacrifice before the Father, and the forgiving power of His sacrifice is not temporally limited in any way (1 John 2:1, 2; 4:10).
Finally, since Christ's command to the disciples is in fact the evangelical commission, we can use other biblical passages dealing with that commission to interpret John 20:23. In other words, clearer passages should be used in order to understand a difficult one better. In this case Luke 24:47 is useful.
After His resurrection Christ appeared to the disciples and said to them: "Repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." The disciples and the church forgive sins in the sense that they confront humanity with the gospel of judgment and salvation (John 3:16; 12:31). Individuals react to that proclamation, and the church decides who is to join it and who is not to join it.
In other words, the authority bestowed on the church by Christ—to forgive or not to forgive—is the authority to preach the gospel and to decide who can or cannot be baptized. It is a tremendous responsibility that should not be taken lightly.
*Bible texts in this article are quoted from the New International Version.