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Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by MuttleyLaff: 10:03am On Dec 17, 2017 |
Codeofconduct:On the contrary. Can I live life for you? The, strangely compelling "got to have that knowledge of good and evil" is still here, literally ever present so much so, that many dont necessarily draw knowledge from others' experiences to gain wisdom... Many just have to do things, their way So, reiterating, life, quintessentially, is an experience Codeofconduct:Keeping it short and simple, because all currently live in an imperfect world Codeofconduct:"bend the laws" is not exclusive to extreme "lefts" The nature of the "walk freely" illusion is that, when you see through it, it disappears. Need I say more? Codeofconduct:We are sailing, we are sailing Cross the sea, we are sailing, stormy waters to be near Him We are flying, we are flying Like a bird, cross the sky, we are flying, passing high clouds To be with Him, to be free Oh Lord, to be near You, to be free Codeofconduct:Aye, the boy falling from the sky actually is having a sweet sailing, with a parachute as his Savior |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by Codeofconduct(m): 11:50am On Dec 17, 2017 |
MuttleyLaff: lolz bulls eye I must confess I liked all your reply's... Tried tricking you to oblige, and yet again you sailed through. It was a test sir and I'm honoured to meet you 1 Like |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by Nobody: 12:30pm On Dec 17, 2017 |
MuttleyLaff:Hello friend, First off, I wish to apologize for a mistake I made in my answer. What I meant to write was, the story is either esoteric/allegory or fantasia. English is unfortunately not my first language. Second, I do not claim to have all truths. It is perfectly okay if you believe I don't know, or I am ignorant. The best I can utter here, is my perspective, which may hold water or not. I greet you warmly. I hope you are fine. 3 Likes 1 Share |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by Nobody: 12:35pm On Dec 17, 2017 |
LoJ: But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety - 1 Timothy 2:15 2 Likes |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by Codeofconduct(m): 12:53pm On Dec 17, 2017 |
LoJ: I've questions but I wish to first hear you .... Who knows? Perharps you might bring light to my hovering cloud, please do share your experience. |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by MuttleyLaff: 1:20pm On Dec 17, 2017 |
LoJ:Apology is unnecessary and unwarranted You actually inadvertently and without making a mistake, answered LoJ:It was a hypothetical question Thinking of the question, in hindsight, I should have made it a binary one LoJ:I don't feel fazed by people who ask questions. It's those, with one cop out of an excuse or the other, who refuse, that I become suspicious of their motives for not wanting to give answer(s) It gets me wondering or thinking what's he trying to hide and/or whats he trying to hide from LoJ:Whether it holds water or not isnt part of my remit I am interested in your perspective I am curious to know how you see, what you've seen, if you saw anything and will you see That's why, as a starting point and potentially, for further exploration, I roped you into that question I asked LoJ:I am loyal, I greet you warmly too. I am fine, believe you are faring better LoJ:Please, the floor is yours 1 Like |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by Nobody: 4:00pm On Dec 17, 2017 |
MuttleyLaff: I missed your later edit. I think this is a very weak “get-out” clause. According to the Genesis monologue of creation God made man in the likeness of God, that statement in itself tells us everything we need to know. In Gen 1:31 you have validation that God looked at all his creation and declared it Good. There is no room for manoeuvre here, we have Man in the likeness of God, declared as Good. You wrote about Man’s Fall from Grace and the disorder that followed. I do not quite see it that way, If we understand the “Tree of Life” as the original writers intended then this soon becomes clear. The “Tree of Life” is the transposition of the properties of celestial planetary attributes to humankind. If we say that Eve metaphorically speaking ate of the Apple, and that she imbibed knowledge and that her actions precipitated God to cast both his prime creations out of his Grace, we are then positing that God intended that his creation exist in a state of perpetual ignorance, akin to that of animals, in my view that is an intolerable position given that we are told that God man made in his own image and gave man dominion over all other forms of his creation. Clearly, it was always intended that man by his primacy above all else bar God, would have knowledge and awareness of his own spirituality. 4 Likes 1 Share |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by MizMyColi(f): 6:22pm On Dec 17, 2017 |
Sarassin: Hello dear, Please pardon my barging in. Your discussions with Muttleylaff are a pleasure to read. Considering all you wrote up there, could you please address the question of why God put that tree and made them aware of it. If he knew they would eat it, and become "lesser" why put it there in the first place. I'm not sure I've seen you address this before, but I'll really love for you to because I wish to gain fresh perspective. 1 Like |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by Nobody: 7:14pm On Dec 17, 2017 |
Hello to all. I am sorry, as I was willing to type my intended message, I got an emergency. So I am back to ponder on this message. Let me appreciate the quality of posters and their many interventions. I must acknowledge that I learn a lot from you all. There is little doubt that Paul had at least a negative disposition towards women. Theories about that abound in the literature, there is no need for us to examine it here. Suffice to say that, it is quite strange that the author of the doctrine of grace as the only basis for salvation, would claim that women can be saved (only?) by bearing children, plus works of righteousness. Indeed, before Paul, the gospel of grace did not exist. Jesus never claimed that anyone is saved without works (he actually stated the contrary in Matthew 25:40) and even Peter acknowledges it in Acts 10:34 - 35. It is Paul that was the greatest theorizer and defender of universal salvation through grace. How come then, would the very same Paul limit the salvation of women, through childbearing When I was still a young pastor (I have since resigned ), I wondered about this for a very long time. Until I got a quite revealing experience. |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by Codeofconduct(m): 7:33pm On Dec 17, 2017 |
LoJ: does this mean child birth, in every sense of the word? LoJ:intresting |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by Nobody: 7:34pm On Dec 17, 2017 |
A friend of mine, a lady mother of 2 children had an emergency. The last born was very sick she had to rush to buy stuffs to treat him. She needed my help to take care of the children, while she rushed to the various pharmacies and get those Chinese sounding medicines . I always joyfully help, so I went to spend the entire time with the last born and the first born. The unavoidable happened. The baby began to cry, and to cry, and cry. I tried all possible mean to calm him, and take care of him. I sang music (I'm a professional musician/arranger) took him on my torso, walked with, danced with him, jumped with him, smiled to him, spoke to him, laid on the bed with him. I tried to feed him, clean him, change the clothes and all... The baby ultimately found peace as I was already totally exhausted. But that moment when he found peace and slept, was so pure and so pricey, that I almost cried of joy. I realised all the works the sweet mothers, all over the world are doing daily to bring their children up "in the way of the lord" . I also realized that, while taking care of him, I needed twice or thrice the concentration, focus, energy, endurance, single-mindedness, dedication and selflessness I usually exhibit while practicing my spiritual exercices (Mantras, meditation or rituals). I came to the conclusion that, true motherhood is sacred, divine, and is surely the shortest path to spiritual growth. I don't know what Paul meant in that passage, and I continue to think he had misogynist tendencies. Still, he is right on point on that one. I doff my hat in respect, admiration and love to all the women out there taking good care of their children. Wherever Heaven is, it must be ruled by a Woman. 4 Likes |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by Nobody: 7:37pm On Dec 17, 2017 |
Codeofconduct:I am not a christian, (no more), but Paul obviously refers to physical childbearing. Only contorsionnists and apologist, would try to give it another meaning to justify an obvious contradiction in Paul's views about grace. Again, I am not a christian and I dont speak for them. Codeofconduct:Yes, I was a former pastor. Heartfelt greetings. 1 Like |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by Nobody: 7:46pm On Dec 17, 2017 |
MizMyColi: May I chip in? I read somewhere that the tree of knowledge represents a (wo)man's coming of age, that losing of one's childish innocence that is the result of the loss of one's naive ignorance. Would you want to be like a child again? Live in blissful unawareness? Sure, it may be easier but it would also deprive you of independence and a great variety of experience and personal development. Taken to the extreme, the whole of the human species could not evolve collectively if individuals would not and therefore the universe would stop expanding like it does. I am not an expert but I love alternative readings of the Bible. The ones that go beyond the literal and/or church translations that never add up at the end of the day. I find this 'God created man in His image' particularly interesting. Since God is the Creator, we all are. So much room for creativity and joyous productivity. |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by MizMyColi(f): 8:04pm On Dec 17, 2017 |
Mindfulness: Awwww Sweetheart, You should see me shining my 44 teeth Such a pleasure reading you! Okay, I totally agree with the creator bit. Unfortunately, most of humanity spends her creative days worrying and struggling to fix things... Even I, am sometimes caught in that cycle. I understand the explanation you proffered. It makes sense. But again, why rain curses on them for following their curiosity...is man inherently disobedient? There's just some stuff in the OT bible I simply can't wrap my head around. 1 Like |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by Nobody: 8:12pm On Dec 17, 2017 |
MizMyColi: Hello MizMyColi, I am sure MuttleyLaff will not mind… The question you asked is a conundrum wrapped within an enigma and an age-old one at that. But it is in itself diversionary, in other words it is the wrong question. We say God said “let there be light…” and God said “let the waters be separated..” and that these things happened as God intoned but the exilic priests who compiled the Genesis accounts at the time of Ezra also realised that the allegorical models of the “Tree of Life” were in fact a blueprint of creation. Therefore, it is not difficult to work out the rest. |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by MizMyColi(f): 8:21pm On Dec 17, 2017 |
Sarassin: Is like my head is spinning; D May I request that you go deeper? Perhaps on another thread... Please... |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by Nobody: 8:37pm On Dec 17, 2017 |
MizMyColi: Obviously, there are many contradictions in the Bible and many of us do not resonate with the image of God that paints the Creator in a hostile, punitive, vengeful, brutal and sadistic way. I even refuse to think of God in this way. It is blasphemy in my eyes. In Jesus Name. Amen. By painting God as the offense-taking, petty, easily irritated Being, we make God in our image forgetting who we really are. The Bible has been written and re-written, translated over and over again, delivered from generation to generation to generation and across cultures. It was written by, through and for (wo-)men. It is bound to be flawed. This is why God gave you an inner voice. Listen to it. A thought is right when it feels right. If God wanted us to be obedient, he would have created us so. 6 Likes |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by MizMyColi(f): 8:52pm On Dec 17, 2017 |
Mindfulness: Ooshey. Eiisshhh. Gosh, I love you. I love you sis Let me coman be going before activists threaten me with 14years. Thank you for the laughter and joy you bring . I have actually posited a number of times that the OT God most people try so hard to defend is my devil. Some things do not add up...and I'm done bothering my head. I only decided to talk about these things again because Sarassin brings on a perspective that's not mainstream and he speaks from experience most times. Oh, I love it when you apply humor. 1 Like |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by Ladyhippolyta88(f): 10:05pm On Dec 17, 2017 |
LoJ:Some scholars believe apostle Paul was a misogynist.While other scholars believe that apostle Paul didn't write that and someone else did using his name and there is a word called pseudoepigrapha in cases like this. |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by AlfaSeltzer(m): 10:30pm On Dec 17, 2017 |
wtf is this? |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by kkins25(m): 10:47pm On Dec 17, 2017 |
MizMyColi:Mr Sarassin, I nd mizmycoli wouldn't mind a new thread. |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by Nobody: 10:49pm On Dec 17, 2017 |
Ladyhippolyta88:Hello Ladyhippolyta88, I really did not want to dabble into all those theories about Paul, since, whatever you say, you will always find someone to state the contrary. And honestly, that was not even the point of the post. I just wished to show that, Motherhood is divine, and we should all learn to be "mothers" in order to grow spiritually. I send you my regards |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by kkins25(m): 10:49pm On Dec 17, 2017 |
Ladyhippolyta88:what part of Paul's statement are you referring to? Salvation through grace alone is absolutely the handy work of Paul. |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by Nobody: 10:51pm On Dec 17, 2017 |
AlfaSeltzer: A kind of open diary, where I share my views, questions and experiences, usually but not always around spiritual questions, and where others are free to agree or disagree, or even ask questions or answer that of others. 1 Like |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by MuttleyLaff: 7:38am On Dec 18, 2017 |
Sarassin:You're making it sound like it is an elaborate edit The pressure of time made me mistype a carefully thought out remark My mind conveyed "I was talking of those body jerking movement moments, even after death" but my finger typed "I wasn't talking of those body jerking movement moments, even after death" Correcting wasn't to was was the edit Sarassin:“get-out” clause indeed You know me better than throwing an underhand ball You almost made me bring up the look-at-you Idi Amin laughing gif with this your laughable “get-out” clause line Sarassin:Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness . They will rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the livestock, all the earth, and the creatures that crawl on the earth. - Genesis 1:26 Man was created in the image of the Godhood, so Sarassin, in effect, Man is a visible representation of the impression of the Godhood The likeness is continuum. Why is it continuum? It is continuum because Man, out of the box, was not made perfect, like God is Man, was created and set on a journey to perfection Man, is an innovation of the Godhood Genesis 1:26, as regards to intent, tells everything, we need to know Sarassin:God looked at everything Looked at all His creation and saw that the stage is set so therefore declared, very good. We're good to go, we're ready for action Let the action begin! Let's see man faithfully reflect or give a true picture of the Godhood Sarassin:Trust me, if you manage to locate, a good vantage point, you quite easily could see it that way Sarassin:Sure, but to be worthy eating off it, one will first, have to pass the test Sarassin:For the record and benefit of others, it wasnt an apple, but never mind that, as I know what you mean Sarassin:Man's knowledge can go beyond his experience The acquistion of knowledge doesnt all have to be experiential so the price of knowledge and/or experience didnt necessarily have to cost Man anything People are known to learn from others experience Sarassin:That's why an alternative tree, equally interesting, was present, alongside, in the garden's centre MizMyColi:I am sure LoJ and Sarassin dont mind you barging in an open plan thread MizMyColi, about the why. One word? Either choice of word, from the next immediate two words below Forethought or foresight Sarassin:Sometimes, when questions asked, have complex twists or complicated turns their answers, actually, are simple and short MizMyColi:I earlier alluded that, it's strongly evident, that there were "situation problems" This encouraged the Godhead to propose creative efforts to solve the "situation problems" Man, is the start of the solution, not just only to solving that "situation problems" but also to meet a need Man is NOT happenstance, rather is the product of a well-thought-out plan hence the earlier reference or use of necessity is the mother of invention MizMyColi:Move deeper in the garden, to see that, there actually were two trees, set in the middle of it One, symbolises freedom, obtain and eat from, the other symbolised restrain, abstain and not eat from One symbolises God's knowledge and experience, the other symbolised Man's knowledge and experience One symbolises dependency on God, the other symbolised independency from God One symbolises life, the other symbolised death One symbolises healing, the other symbolised hurting 1 Like |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by Ladyhippolyta88(f): 9:00am On Dec 18, 2017 |
kkins25:The one in which he said women would be saved through childbearing. |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by MizMyColi(f): 9:07am On Dec 18, 2017 |
Hei God, More head spinning for me this morning |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by Nobody: 9:56am On Dec 18, 2017 |
Hello to all. "That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh." - book of Genesis. Today I wish to ponder on the concept of completeness. As long as I can remember, I have always been looking for completeness. I have always felt uncomplete, and looking for that which will make me whole. This pursuit is what led me to extensive reading as a child, then to music, then religion, then philosophy, then science, etc. I was looking for the "lacking me". I think this issue of completeness or lack of it, is universal. I can be wrong though. I believe most people are actually, behind the name of god, religion, passion, and the rest, simply willing to be "whole" again. From my experience, I have realised, man comes into this "world" from a state of unconscious completeness, and falls into a state of conscious incompleteness as a baby. Perhaps this is the real fall of man. We feel this incompleteness consciously, and eager to retrieve our former state of completeness. Man is looking for union, or reunion with the lacking side of him. Is it the mystical truth behind this quoted verse of the Bible? 2 Likes |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by Nobody: 10:05am On Dec 18, 2017 |
You seek love. You seek fame You seek money, you seek recognition and achievement. You seek God You seek power You seek sex. You are actually seeking yourself. Your real self. The lost side of you, disconnected from you at birth. From the state of unconscious completeness, to a state conscious incompleteness, we arrive in this dimension. We are now seeking to reach a state of conscious completeness. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by MizMyColi(f): 10:18am On Dec 18, 2017 |
Hi Muttleylaff, I think I'll just let these rest. It would seem you are privy to some knowledge I am unable to thoroughly decipher from your posts. Of course, I understand your post at face value. You say there were two trees in the garden... But the bible does not give that impression. So, if I pondered more on it, then I am setting myself up for inevitable confusion. Perhaps, speaking in clearer terms and maybe referring to an account of creation you get this knowledge from might help. |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by MuttleyLaff: 11:24am On Dec 18, 2017 |
MizMyColi:The LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground --trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were, the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - Genesis 2:9 Dont be too hard on yourself, we all, including myself, have knowledge gaps 1 Like |
Re: In The Beginning There Was An End. by MizMyColi(f): 12:18pm On Dec 18, 2017 |
MuttleyLaff: Okay, it's clearer now that you mention "The middle" I'm aware that the garden was filled with all kinds of trees. |
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