Romeo4real,

Are these Christians who say the Bible is wrong or that Scriptural doctrine is wrong doctrine?

@nuclearboy - i replied to your question, it seems the spambots are holding on to the post!

@Romeo4real;

Yes my Brother. I did see your response and its not the spambots. I hear there was a server crash and all posts following May 9th were lost.

I got your point about who a Christian is "definition" wise and agree. Where I have problems is when this "excitement gospel" runs off their mouths and cheapens it into a "feel good" thing thus -

questioner/poser "hey, do you believe in Christ?" answer/victim "sure I do"
questioner/poser "do you accept Him as Lord?" answer/victim "sure, why not"
questioner/poser "ok, open your mouth and say anything. I assure you thats the Holy Ghost" answer/victim "dance dance dance and forget your sorrow. Afro juju is good for you and rice and beans is very sweet"
questioner/poser "great great great - now listen. ANY voice telling you anything you do is wrong is devilish cos NO MATTER WHAT you do, you have the righteousness nature and are Christ personified" answer/victim (to himself as he walks off to enjoy) "ol'boy, I hit it this time - ate my cake and still have it. Now where's the nearest lovely young woman I can lure into bed?"

That is what we're being offered today and that is why I just say "these are NOT Christian" for if they were, it would be a horror to them to imagine the above talkless to propagate it. Sadly, its not and soon we will find people come in here to "explain" how the Wheat and Tares will grow together till harvest and tell us "Isn't it better than leaving them out there? At least they will learn a better way here".

Maybe a better representation of answer/victim would have be "the deluded"

i think we need the hebrew vation of the bible to clear what SIN and a SIINER really is,if a born agian christian commit adultry, what act is that? mastke?SIN, if the act commited was sin then he his called a sinner, maybe till he begs for forgivness and if he failed to reapents then he remain a SINNER,simple, lets forget big grammers that will make us feel like the untouchable in the house of God.

youths really we are not just raiseing issue but pro-offering solution by different sound wisdom and our young and adult really we want to bring the programme on air i mean the television and radio please my fellow brothers and sisters we your financial contribution to make these plan a success thanksmy fellow sisters and brothers presently now am working on programme called world of why we raise issue affecting our society affecting the youths affecting the social systems and our economy , modern trend of civilization affecting the remember why is a question both rich man and poor man will ask why is a question that obama will ask why is a question pastors will ask we keep learning and knowing till we pass off on the face of the earth to death thanks for makeing these effort a success for more information u can call on these number 07090814030 or mail pointmarket1.v.p.analysis@gmail.com

Prov 14:9 - Fools make a mock at sin,

Eze 3:20  Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Eze 3:21  Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned;,

Joh 8:34  Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Rom 6:1  What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:14  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15  What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1Cor 15:34  Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1Tim 5:20  Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

Heb 10:26  For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

1Jn 3:8  He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning ,
1Jn 3:9  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I don't know how some people will sit down to form a doctrine that accommodate sin despite all the scriptures above.

The word you hear from your pastor will not be the measurement for justification/judgment on the last day. The final authourity is in the WORD of God.  

Your pastor too will stand to be judged by the same WORD.

@eros

especially with Nigerians; its like a cancerous computer virus.

nuclearboy:


I got your point about who a Christian is "definition" wise and agree. Where I have problems is when this "excitement gospel" runs off their mouths and cheapens it into a "feel good" thing thus -

questioner/poser "hey, do you believe in Christ?" answer/victim "sure I do"
questioner/poser "do you accept Him as Lord?" answer/victim "sure, why not"
questioner/poser "ok, open your mouth and say anything. I assure you thats the Holy Ghost" answer/victim "dance dance dance and forget your sorrow. Afro juju is good for you and rice and beans is very sweet"
"

hahahahahahahaha!!! i'm laughing in russian language, *forma sheist to be precise!*

A born again christian is not a sinner even if je sin because sin is a nature. If any man be in christ he is a new creation.

A born-again is a sinner if he sins, but if he truly repents and ask God thr Christ for forgiveness, he will be forgiven Proverb 28 verse 13.
If i, a born-again STARTS living in sin, then heaven is a mirage to me, i`ll be deceiving myself if i think that i am striving for heaven.
Please read Ezekiel 18 verse 24, it will answer your question.
Also remember the popular verse of the scripture that says `he that put his hands on the plough and look back is not fit for the kingdom of God`.

A born again christian is not a sinner even if je sin because sin is a nature. If any man be in christ he is a new creation.

Even when provisioned with numerous evidence to the contrary, the deluded still cling to their assertions no matter what. What part of a "new creation" says you are not a sinner, even when you sin? This is truly laughable!

Nigerians have largely been blinded and deceived by religion and methinks that is one of the ill that plague our nation. If the born again Xtian can't sin cos he/she has received Christ, how come we have such massive corruption in government. Does being a self-professed born-again Christian sanctify the looting of the public coffer and the betrayals of public trust? No wonder these acts are perpetrated with impunity. The pastors are certainly leading their flocks off the cliffs. A sinner is a sinner regardless of religious affiliations. Dear "Christians" stop following blindly the teachings of these misguided "pastors"! Stop reading those verses in isolation. Always endeavour to read the entire passage or chapter or book (as the case may be) so that the context in which those often quoted words were written can become manifest. SHINE YOUR EYES!!!

Hmm, question what makes a sinner? Is it one who doesnt believe in God or what?

Paul never calls a Christian sinner. This is not English language but spiritual. A sinner is the unsaved man. The fact that a Christian does something wrong has not changed his nature from righteousness. And the fact that a sinner(umbells) does nice things doesnt make him righteous. If good works will not make a sinner righteous, same way mistake of the rightrous will not change his nature to a sinner. You may bark like a dog but it will never change your nature to be a dog. You are a human.

For all that says otherwise, let me ask you. If you bark like a Dog what are you?

Read the scriptures bellow. Who is refered to as sinner?, and who is refered to as righteous? Christians or the unsaved? Let us wrap up this matter.

1 Peter 4:18
And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

^^ Hi Pastor Jo, hope you are blossoming in d Greater Light

Yes i am back to this thread after much observations,

Those that call a Christian a sinner, because he committed a sin, should interprete what Revelations 22:11 meant by classification of man into four groups:

1) UNJUST
2) FILTHY
3) RIGHTEOUS
4) HOLY

Revelations 22:11
"He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous[a] still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”


Please i want those concerned to tell me who a "righteous" man is on one hand, and who a "holy" man is on the other hand!!!

The first two groups are obvious!!!!

@ Gunnaz007,
welcome back, This topic is so simple, but some misunderstands it as though one is encouraging sin, Far from it. God has given us dominion over sin. The bible is clear on this.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you:

The issue we are dealing with has to do with the name "Sinner" for a Christian who did wrong. It is the unsaved man that is the sinner because of the nature of sin in him. The Christian is the righeousness of God because of the nature of righteousness in him. He cant lose this nature of righteousnes , even if he makes a mistake. Do you disown your child because he poos on his body?. I dont take beer, I discourage any christian from it. But if a christian is found with beer, he is still the son of God with holding a bottle of beer. Thesame thing goes for any other work of flesh. cursing o, fighting o. it does not take away the nature of righteousness from them. They are still righteous before God .

Paul never calls a Christian sinner.

Why would he call a Christian a sinner if the Christian is not sinning?
A true "Christian" is "Christ" like; Christ does not sin. Obviously any Christian who commits sin, is not Christ like, so is subsequently a sinner. Why is that so difficult to comprehend?
As i said earlier, can someone please show me anywhere in the Bible that says a Christian who sins is not a sinner? So far nobody has been unable to do this!

The fact that a Christian does something wrong has not changed his nature from righteousness.

What nonsense is this? And what Bible are you reading. How can you be righteous when you are doing something contrary to the word of God. This is madness!

good works will not make a sinner righteous, same way mistake of the righteous will not change his nature to a sinner.

You are contradicting yourself; but that is not surprising because the argument is illogical. This is not difficult - Sin is the nature of the unrighteous; subsequently, if you sin, you cannot be righteous; if you are unrighteous, you are a sinner. Do you get this? Remember, just because you believe in God and ascribe to the Christian faith does not make you a Christian. The original definition of a Christian is someone who is Christ like, believes, lives and breathes the teachings, philosophies and precepts of Jesus Christ. Not someone who goes to CAC, CEC or Redeemed!

For all that says otherwise, let me ask you. If you bark like a Dog what are you?

You are simply a person barking like a dog. This is a silly analogy. Christianity is a choice. Sinning is a choice, due to the nature of man. Barking is not a choice for a dog. It is an instinctive innate physiological response to specific stimuli. Do you get that?

Read the scriptures bellow. Who is referred to as sinner?, and who is referred to as righteous? Christians or the unsaved? Let us wrap up this matter.

Read the scriptures properly. A righteous man does NOT commit any sin. The verses did not say "Christian". It said "righteous". Aha! What part of this is so difficult to understand? A Christian committing sin is not righteous. Let us wrap up this matter!

@Joagbaje -

The Christian is the righteousness of God because of the nature of righteousness in him. He cant lose this nature of righteousness , even if he makes a mistake.

Why are you saying these illogical things? The question for you is - What is a "Christian"? Is it someone who is "saved"? What does it mean to be "saved"? What is "righteousness"? What is a "mistake"?

Are you aware that a a person does not become righteous because he is saved? Are you aware that a person does not become righteous because he is a Christian? Are you aware of these things?

I dont take beer, I discourage  any christian from it. But if a christian is found with beer, he is still the son of God with holding a bottle of beer. Thesame thing goes for any other work of flesh. cursing o, fighting o. it does not take away the nature of righteousness from them. They are still righteous before  God .

Apologies, but this statement is nonsensical. Drinking beer is not wrong, nor is it a sin for a Christian. Cursing, fighting however are sins. ALL sinners are son's of God - That has nothing to do with righteousness. We are [b]ALL [/b]son's of God; but that does not make us righteous before God. Please study your Bible properly.

Gunnaz:

Your question is stilted in that it answers itself trying to force a mold for any respondent.

A supposed "Christian" could be "filthy" e.g Robert Liardon having carnal knowledge of another man. Or what would you call homosexuality in the light of the Bible?

A supposed "Christian" could be "unjust" e.g. Maurice Iwu "selling" elections to the highest bidder or any MOG who has seats "reserved" at the front for big men forgetting that the God he claims is not a respecter of persons.

A supposed "Christian" could be "righteous" when he truly shows the life of Christ in himself. Indeed, this is the definition of Christian - manifesting Christ (the embodiment of right) so that people wonder just as they did when they met the Apostles or people like Moses or Elijah. Keep in mind that "righteousness" is living RIGHT, not an esoteric feel good definition of "claiming" by "confession"!

A "Christian" should be Holy ALWAYS. Let us use this "example" - if during the time Christ was on the Cross, he at any time wavered and suddenly screamed, "hey, I'm not taking this anymore. Angels, come to my rescue", what do you think would have happened? Then answer this - if they, the angels had obeyed (as surely they must have), would Christ's sacrifice have still been the same? That is what happens to your sinning Christian. At the time when he sins, he IS a sinner and if at that exact second he dies, his "labor" has been in vain. Or would he (as in the example), be the same?

One way to assess this is - The Bible says "If the righteous shall turn away from righteousness and shall turn to do evil,, , ". Would you then say this is not applicable to Christianity?

All you need to consider is that you, myself, all of us were once sinners (as we prefer to say). If the sin nature cannot become righteousness, there is no way you would be able to sit and say you're a Christian today. Same for when you go away from righteousness - you'll not be righteous THEN!

@Romeo4real,

Romeo4real:

@Joagbaje -
Why are you saying these illogical things? The question for you is - What is a "Christian"? Is it someone who is "saved"? What does it mean to be "saved"?

It means for a man to recieve the life of God by faith through the confession of christ as lord .

What is "righteousness"?

Righteousness is the nature of God that grants ability to man to stand in Gods pressence and also giving man ability to do right.

What is a "mistake"?

A mistake is any works of the flesh. Any wrong step which is contrary to the life and nature of God in a christian

Are you aware that a a person does not become righteous because he is saved?
Are you aware that a person does not become righteous because he is a Christian? Are you aware of these things?

I'm aware that you don't understand word or doctrine of righteousness as yet.

Hebrews 5:13
13 For every one that useth milk[ is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

. Drinking beer is not wrong, nor is it a sin for a Christian.

I agree with you it's not sin but it's still bad habit.

Cursing, fighting however are sins. ALL sinners are son's of God - That has nothing to do with righteousness. We are ALL [/b]son's of God; but that does not make us righteous before God. Please study your Bible properly.

I see , you view righteousness according to good works. That was under the law of Moses their righteousness was by keeping the law.
[b]Deuteronomy 6:25
25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the our God, as he hath commanded us.

Righteousness is a gift we recieve by faith. The righteouness of the law is like rag compared to Gods own righteousness.

Romans 3:21-22
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God[ which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Philippians 3:9
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


So you see , righteousness is not by good works but by faith. It is a gift. And God does not take away the gift just because we did wrong.

You said nobody has ever shown you that if a Christian sins , he is not a sinner. If you understand righteousness , the mystery will be solved for you. God does count sin against us.

2 Corinthians 5:19
19 For God was in Christ, restoring the world to himself, no longer counting men's sins against them but blotting them out. This is the wonderful message he has given us to tell others.


if you are born again and still call youself a sinner, you have trampled on the blood of christ and made it none effect.if you have recieve eternal life, you are no longer a sinner. Your righteousness is a gift.

Romans 5:17
17.they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Righteousness is the nature of God that grants ability to man to stand in Gods presence and also giving man ability to do right.

Can you see that your definition of “Righteousness” even contradicts your statements? Lets break down your statements. (1) Righteousness is the nature of God. (2) It grants man an ability to stand in God’s presence. (3) It give man ability to do right.

Therefore, by your statements, “Righteousness “is simply an ability? right? Is it conferred to “any” man? If not, what kind on man exactly is this “ability” conferred upon?

A mistake is any works of the flesh. Any wrong step which is contrary to the life and nature of God in a christian

If this is the definition of a “Mistake”, then please enlighten us to the definition of “Sin”

I'm aware that you don't understand word or doctrine of righteousness as yet.Hebrews 5:13.13 For every one that useth milk[ is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

I do understand. And why are you quoting obscure scripture to justify your fallacy? How does this particular scripture say that a Christian who sins is still righteous and is not a sinner? If you go on to finish the same scripture you quoted, it goes on to say – “But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.”- If you are mature, and have trained yourself to distinguish good from evil, why would you still be doing evil things and sinning? If this is so, it means you are not mature yet, and therefore unrighteous.

I see , you view righteousness according to good works. That was under the law of Moses their righteousness was by keeping the law.

Please show me where I have said this. Under the law, righteousness was by keeping the law; and it still partly is. Jesus clarified this many times to his disciples and the Pharisees. He made clear the Law is still valid and he did not came to change it. He came to clarify the NEW relationship between the Law and Grace. He came to add another dimension to our salvation – that of Grace. Paul also spent a great deal of time explaining the relationship between these concepts in Romans. I would suggest you read it. ALL of it.

Righteousness is a gift we received by faith. The righteousness of the law is like rag compared to Gods own righteousness.

Err, Joagbaje, please quote the whole scripture. Here is the rest below -

“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,  and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. - Now can you see the relationship? You can only become righteous through the Grace of Christ redeeming you. Once redeemed, you cannot go back to you old ways of sinning or committing “mistakes” as you choose to call it. If you do, you are unrighteous and back to square one. The Bible makes this very clear.

So you see , righteousness is not by good works but by faith.

Nobody said it is by good works – alone.

It is a gift. And God does not take away the gift just because we did wrong.

Yes, it is a gift, premised upon Redemption, conferred by interceding Grace, due to Forgiveness of SIN! Can you follow this?

Do not be duplicitous when quoting the Bible. Do not quote passages in isolation. Any Christian worth his salt knows that redemption only comes through grace, which only comes via forgiveness; which is necessary because you have sinned. You are NOT supposed to sin once you have been redeemed. If you do, you lose your redemption, which is why you have to ask for forgiveness and grace again. This is not a difficult argument to follow. Golly!

hello nuclearboy,

I am very busy preparing for my exams now as i don't have the time to present my arguments. But I will leave you with an interpretation of the scripture I posted earlier on this thread; that is

1John 1:7 (Amplified version)

But if we [really] are living and walking in the Light, as He [Himself] is in the Light, we have [true, unbroken] fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses (removes) us from all sin and guilt [keeps us cleansed from sin in all its forms and manifestations].


1John 1:7 (KJV version)

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Please kindly expatiate on the above passage, pointing out who John was addressing; when next i show up, I will present my understanding of Revelations 22:11 and 1John 1:7.

Cheers

Romeo4real:

Can you see that your definition of “Righteousness” even contradicts your statements?
Lets break down your statements. (1) Righteousness is the nature of God. (2) It grants man an ability to stand in God’s presence. (3) It give man ability to do right.

There is no contradiction in any definition here.Every child of God wants to do right. Righteousness is embeded in our spirit. Sin or mistakes are not produced in our spirit, They are works of the flesh.Yes it grants man ability to stand in God's pressence without sense of guilt , condemnation, or inferiority.

Therefore, by your statements, “Righteousness “is simply an ability? right? Is it conferred to “any” man? If not, what kind on man exactly is this “ability” conferred upon?

Its conferred on any one that is born again. The point is, Righteousness is God's nature. when a man becomes born again, he is automatically born with the same nature of righteousness. Thesame way a man does not become a sinner by what he did wrog. Every man was born with the sin nature.As long as a man still has the sin nature by rejecting christ, no matter the good works, he is still a sinner. No matter the wrong doing of a christian , his nature of righteousness remains unchanged.God still see him as righteou, and will not change the state of his human spirit from righteousness into the nature of sin. This does not mean however , that he should live carelessly, Sin has consequences and thats why a man needs to repent if he does wrong. But as he walks in the word of God and grow as a christian, The nature of righteousness overides every works of the flesh. It will become difficult for him to walk in the flesh .

If this is the definition of a “Mistake”, then please enlighten us to the definition of “Sin”

There is a differece between someone who is living in sin and someone who falls into an error or makes a mistake. But all are called works of the flesh.

Galatians 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, [21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:

I do understand. And why are you quoting obscure scripture to justify your fallacy? How does this particular scripture say that a Christian who sins is still righteous and is not a sinner?

With the explanations i gave above , it is clear he is always righteous before God. He may not even feel righteous because of guilt due to his ignorace. God does not take his rigtheousness away becase the man christian man is born with it. While the sinner is born with sin nature. and nothing he does good can make him right with God unless he gets born again first.

If you go on to finish the same scripture you quoted, it goes on to say – “But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.”- If you are mature, and have trained yourself to distinguish good from evil, why would you still be doing evil things and sinning? If this is so, it means you are not mature yet, and therefore unrighteous.

You are still making thesame mistake, equating righteousness with works. A man is not made righteous by what he does. He is born with it as a nature in Christ, He doenst earn it by good behaviour. Did Abraham not make mistakes and even lie. Yet God callled him righteous.It is lack of undestanding of righteousness that makes some people stop going to church because they fell into certain habits and feel they are not really saved

. Under the law, righteousness was by keeping the law; and it still partly is. Jesus clarified this many times to his disciples and the Pharisees. He made clear the Law is still valid and he did not came to change it.

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Do not be duplicitous when quoting the Bible. Do not quote passages in isolation.

I can never be duplicitous and i dont appreciate the use of that language. If you dont understand , simply say so.Read the passage yourself.

Any Christian worth his salt knows that redemption only comes through grace, which only comes via forgiveness;which is necessary because you have sinned.

You are NOT supposed to sin once you have been redeemed. If you do, you lose your redemption, which is

Where did you get that from the bible? Seriously i will really like to know. That a christian will lose his salvation because he did something wron? Do you know how many things youve done wrong that you did not even know it was a sin. ? Pls show me with scriptures. And make sure they are relevant to a christian

to cut the long stories short. Pple shld become born again and try to live a righteous life. no one is perfect but try to be.the most important thing is that u TRIED. God sees everyone's heart. God bless. Please, Ignore the devil.

It would be best to use God's definitions of sin before claiming that Christians can sin.

1John3:4 Sin is transgression of the law. Are you under this law still in spite of it being naled to the cross?
Sin is unbelief John16:9. Are you an unbeliever?
Blasphemy.Mark3:29 Do you blaspheme?
What is not of faith is sin. Rom14:23 Do you not have faith in gospel of Christ?
Unrighteousness.1John5:17 Do you not have righteousness through Christ?

Sin is the label that applies to those who commit the above. So using God's definitions of sin, Christians are not sinners.

Christianity made easy! That is what it is now. Make some confessions and whatever sin you commit after that is not held against you! Is it that you don't read the bible on your own and try to understand apart from what your pastor tells you? Is he God? So if a born again commits sin, will he go to heaven or hell? If hell then what took him there?
Okay oh

^^^^
In truth, you need a dose of reformed theology.

God sees the heart! True repentance is what makes the difference in this matter!

I will prefer to refer a born-again christian who commits sin as a transgressor. Note however, that the transgressor and the unregenerated sinner will end up in the same place-hell

Confusion e dey kpa ye kpa. . .