I always have had a problem why European nations can get self determination, but when it comes to Africa, we can't.

Kosovo is such a small nation, in which some of our minority tribes like the Ijaw have a bigger population than the population of Kosovo, yet when an African people want self-determination, the whole world says we can't

Why must we keep our colonial borders?

Don't we all see that most African nations have not seen progress since independence but actually has gotten worse.

Let us have a non-tribalistic discussion so[b] ignore people who will want to derail this thread [/b]and make it the usual Igbo v. Yoruba nonsense.

EzeUche:

I always have had a problem why European nations can get self determination, but when it comes to Africa, we can't.

I think it's because of the same reason threads derail in the first place -- because we don't have a network of people who can stay on one thing long enough to do it well. In my opinion, our continent has a derth of interconnected skilled-people who enjoy doing there tasks to such an extent that you can really call them professionals.

If you look at merchants and artisans during the Renaissance era, you see that they were craftsman, builders, blacksmiths et. al. who learned their trade as apprentices, starting from when they were very young. But to really prove themselves, they had to show the quality of their work, because that was the only way they could increase their value against others in the same trade. And then the general success of that class led to the general success of their city or state: roads were built and maintained so that merchants could move artisan crafts and ordinary people could find the way to the markets.

I think it was really the ingenuity of the merchant and artisan class that made way for the Industrial revolutions that happened all over Europe.

In Nigeria and all across Africa, too many people want to make the money the easiest way, and too few care enough about quality. If modern Africa doesn't redevelop its network of interconnected trade and skilled workers (which it had before it was smashed by European colonialists in their bid to exploit our continent) then we will only stay as stagnant as we have been for much of the last century.

ikenwan,

I agree with what you have said, but the question is, why do people in Europe are given the opportunity to have homogenous or close to homogenous nations. Germans live in Germany, Italians live in Italy, French live and France etc. These nations are based solely on one major ethnic group.

I know people like to argue that Africa is made up of many tribes, but a lot of these tribes have no business being made into a seperate ethnic group when they all speak the same language or just a different dialect. The example I like to use is the Ibibio. Efiks, Ibibio, Calabari and I believe Ogoni all speak the same language, but people act like they are different ethnic groups. They are one of the same.

Guy I am baffled by the same thing. When the Jews yearned for their own state the UK had no problem going all the way back to Palestine carve out Israel. The Jews lost about 6 million while Biafra lost about 3 million. Both were being persecuted but somehow black Africans of Biafra didn't deserve their own nation. The USSR split into several nations and there was no objection. Tiny Kosovo just did the samething yet even fellow Africans can't see the imbalance in the way bothe people are treated so different. I just don't get why we don't believe in ourselves.

udezue:

Guy I am baffled by the same thing. When the Jews yearned for their own state the UK had no problem going all the way back to Palestine carve out Israel. The Jews lost about 6 million while Biafra lost about 3 million. Both were being persecuted but somehow black Africans of Biafra didn't deserve their own nation. The USSR split into several nations and there was no objection. Tiny Kosovo just did the samething yet even fellow Africans can't see the imbalance in the way bothe people are treated so different. I just don't get why we don't believe in ourselves.

Our fellow Africans are our worse enemy I must say. There are a lot of groups in Africa who yearn for their own nation, like the Oromo people of Ethiopia, but fellow Africans say no. Our "leaders" do not want something to happen, because they know the people will hold them accountable for the injustices of keeping regimes in place.

Most African nations fear self-determination, because they know that this will inspire people within their borders. Watch the referendum in Southern Sudan next year and see that the African Union will probably not recognize their independence.

As the black americans say, black people suffer from the "crabas in a barrel" mentality. When one group does well, the other groups will try to bring them down.

This is a much better topic than the one before.

EzeUche, I wholeheartedly understand where you're coming from and I feel the same way. 'Til date, I have never been able to fully understand why Africans are unable to grasp self-determination (at least, in this day and age). I'm sure that pre-colonially and pre-slave era, it was not a problem, but now, things are different. There is so much adherence to colonial borders, by Africans themselves. That's why I've said it over and over that the biggest hurdle Africans have in this journey of self-determination is themselves. Many Africans seem afraid of what they don't know (the outcome redrawing borders; drawing borders, correctly), but the way I see it, what they do know (the state of Africa now) is killing them. On NL here, someone made the comment that it is better to drive a small car that works than a large vehicle that doesn't have all its screws in place, and I agree. Let us all drive smaller, more efficient cars. We do not need these large, ineffective, and overly-heterogeneous colonial conglomerates.

It even amazes me what some people say about the size of the new nations to be, if we were to divide according to more 'natural' lines. Africans comment saying that the new nations would be too small, yet, as you mentioned, their population and landmass would be much larger than many European countries. Thankfully though, we have the Sudan referendum that will be happening this coming January. If Sudan and manage to conduct a peaceful border redrawing, and if south Sudan can be peacefully seceded, then a chain reaction of similar 'natural' amendments will be soon to follow. The sounds of redrawing the map of Africa, and ridding ourselves of colonial borders has since been echoing all over Africa. If all goes well, come January 2010, those echoing sounds will become billowing sounds of celebration.

EzeUche:

The example I like to use is the Ibibio. Efiks, Ibibio, Calabari and I believe Ogoni all speak the same language, but people act like they are different ethnic groups. They are one of the same.

They don't share a consciousness. Consciousness is identity. Ethnicity is about identity. If they don't identify with each other like that (if they don't recognize themselves as sharing a consciousness with each other), then you cannot really call them an ethnic group.

EzeUche:

ikenwan,

I agree with what you have said, but the question is, why do people in Europe are given the opportunity to have homogenous or close to homogenous nations. Germans live in Germany, Italians live in Italy, French live and France etc. These nations are based solely on one major ethnic group.

I know people like to argue that Africa is made up of many tribes, but a lot of these tribes have no business being made into a seperate ethnic group when they all speak the same language or just a different dialect. The example I like to use is the Ibibio. Efiks, Ibibio, Calabari and I believe Ogoni all speak the same language, but people act like they are different ethnic groups. They are one of the same.

Their homogeneity isn't due to their being of the same ethnic group. In Germany alone, there are several different backgrounds. There are the German Deutsch who speak the German language we know, there are the Dutch from the Netherlands, the Yiddish speakers,  Frisian speakers, Danes, and even some who speak the old Frankish language of the French people (this is also the language that "Dutch" came from). English fits into this category. They may all be descendants of ancient Germanic peoples, but their ethnic identities are different today.

Similarly, France and Italy aren't homogeneous because there citizens all come from the same tribes. In France, you don't only have the French national language, but you have German speakers, Italian speakers, Spanish speakers, and you have Occitan, Provencal, and a whole lot of other mixed languages that are hybrids of Germanic/Celtic/Latin languages.

Europe's -- Western Europe, especially -- homogeneity is due to it's interconnectedness. Think about it.

Most africans do not think about tmrrw.they are only interested in the now.

ChinenyeN:

They don't share a consciousness. Consciousness is identity. Ethnicity is about identity. If they don't identify with each other like that (if they don't recognize themselves as sharing a consciousness with each other), then you cannot really call them an ethnic group.

Now this is the perfect explanation. At the national level, European tribes self-identify e.g. an Englishman won't call himself a Frenchman, but at the International level, Western Europe acts as one.

ikenwan:

Now this is the perfect explanation. At the national level, European tribes self-identify e.g. an Englishman won't call himself a Frenchman, but at the International level, Western Europe acts as one.

The European Union is a new concept, and it is going through some strains right now. Western Europe did not act as one in the past. The British and the French were bitter enemies and they fought a 100 year war.

In addition, Germany rose up twice in two world wars that brought Western Europe to its knees. The only reason why the allowed Germany into the European Union is to contain them. Western Europe does not act as one when it comes to international relations. They all have their own voice and this is where I disagree with you.

But that is another discussion.

ChinenyeN,

I think next year will be a monumental year in the entire international systerm. The ruling of the courts to give say that Kosovo was not acting criminally when they declared independence in 2008, is going to send shockwaves around the world. Not only on the continent of Africa, but also in Asia as well or possibly in Europe. The Basque of Spain were the first to comment on this issue and they said that it has given them more impetus to create their own nation.

Sovereign nations right now will have a hard time containing these independence movements that operate within their nations. The world is going to become a less stable place.

And I am part Ibibio and I know what I am talking about. When an Efik man speaks, I understand, when a Calabari man speaks, I understand. We all speak the same language, but maybe in a different dialect.

In the U.S., you have different dialects of English like southern English, yankee English and midwest English, but they are still one people. Why is Africa any different? As soon as we get rid of these clan based loyalties, the better.

EzeUche:

ChinenyeN,

I think next year will be a monumental year in the entire international systerm. The ruling of the courts to give say that Kosovo was not acting criminally when they declared independence in 2008, is going to send shockwaves around the world. Not only on the continent of Africa, but also in Asia as well or possibly in Europe. The Basque of Spain were the first to comment on this issue and they said that it has given them more impetus to create their own nation.

Sovereign nations right now will have a hard time containing these independence movements that operate within their nations. The world is going to become a less stable place.

And I am part Ibibio and I know what I am talking about. When an Efik man speaks, I understand, when a Calabari man speaks, I understand. We all speak the same language, but maybe in a different dialect.

In the U.S., you have different dialects of English like southern English, yankee English and midwest English, but they are still one people. Why is Africa any different? As soon as we get rid of these clan based loyalties, the better.

The Catalans too

Agreed. A lot is in store for us all next year, but the Sudan referendum is that pivotal point. All that we have in store, seems dependent (to an extent) on what occurs in Sudan, come January 2010). I can only hope for favorable outcome.

EzeUche:

And I am part Ibibio and I know what I am talking about. When an Efik man speaks, I understand, when a Calabari man speaks, I understand. We all speak the same language, but maybe in a different dialect.

Believe me, I understand what you're saying, but what you're saying is not what I was referring to.

Lol EzeUche, it's true, I won't deny it! But you have to agree, when they weren't fighting each other, they were conducting a large amount of trade with each other and not only of goods, but of their culture and their values. The way that the European Union has reached its current state is the direct result of this. Western Europe has begun to apply what its history has taught it and is learning to tolerate each other. Africa needs to do the same! But maybe, Nigeria first.

EzeUche:

In the U.S., you have different dialects of English like southern English, yankee English and midwest English, but they are still one people. Why is Africa any different? As soon as we get rid of these clan based loyalties, the better.

This can be saved for a different discussion, although, it is loosely tied to this topic of African self-determination.

The fact in the matter, I support any people's right to self-determination. If the present situation is not working, then a group of people should have a right to form their own nation. This is most needed in Africa, where these borders have done nothing for us, but cause more bloodshed.

No one said it was going to be easy, but anything is better than the present situation we have now. Sudan went through many civil wars and now the people in Southern Sudan now have the right to choose if they want to stay in that union or leave.

I wish those Biafran soldiers did not give up so easily. My father would tell me that many of his comrades would have rathered went into the bush and start a guerilla war than surrender, but that is history now.

EzeUche:

Kosovo is such a small nation, in which some of our minority tribes like the Ijaw have a bigger population than the population of Kosovo, yet when an African people want self-determination, the whole world says we can't

Why must we keep our colonial borders?

Kosovo fought for it with one voice, where killed and during the peace talks the opted for a separate nation. They were not just being docile and demanding we want a separation nation and the world rose with one voice and say "yes you need to be separate"

EzeUche:

ikenwan,

I agree with what you have said, but the question is, why do people in Europe are given the opportunity to have homogenous or close to homogenous nations. Germans live in Germany, Italians live in Italy, French live and France etc. These nations are based solely on one major ethnic group.

I know people like to argue that Africa is made up of many tribes, but a lot of these tribes have no business being made into a seperate ethnic group when they all speak the same language or just a different dialect. The example I like to use is the Ibibio. Efiks, Ibibio, Calabari and I believe Ogoni all speak the same language, but people act like they are different ethnic groups. They are one of the same.

ogoni and (Efiks, Ibibio) are not the same, in fact there is no single similarity between them. it's the only unique tribe in rivers state without any overlapping language with other ethnic groups. make proper research before posting rubbish

udezue:

Guy I am baffled by the same thing. When the Jews yearned for their own state the UK had no problem going all the way back to Palestine carve out Israel. The Jews lost about 6 million while Biafra lost about 3 million. Both were being persecuted but somehow black Africans of Biafra didn't deserve their own nation. The USSR split into several nations and there was no objection. Tiny Kosovo just did the samething yet even fellow Africans can't see the imbalance in the way bothe people are treated so different. I just don't get why we don't believe in ourselves.

If they tell you the determination of the Jews you will be baffled. Brother read history books how the Jews got their state. May be you have not heard of the seven days war between the Jews and the Arabs. you think Israel was created on a platter of gold? people were on hunger strike, some died boats were left on the high seas. the nation of Israel was gotten after much blood shedding

USSR split was easy because Russia which was controlling the federation wanted the split and they were not depending on the others, in fact they saw the others as burdens.

But in Nigeria it's the other way round.

I am not surprised. Kosovo is very different to Serbia.

1) Kosovo is made up ethnic Albanians and Albania supported their armed struggle
2) America wanted to cut the power of serbia because serbia was seen as anti west.
3) Kosova does not have oil like some parts of Nigeria( I know you will jump up and say ehen)
4) Kosovo plained their armed struggle very well unlike some parts of Nigeria where some ambitious soldier just shouted biafra.

agiator,

I could not allow your response to go unanswered. Kosovo did not fight for it, NATO fought for their independence from Serbia in order to spite Russia which is a huge supporter of their fellow slavic country of Serbia. The Serbs were committing attrocities in Kosovo and NATO kicked them out of Kosovo. Serbs could not do anything about this province, because the Western European nations would not allow them to do anything in Serbia. Learn the history, before you talk to me.

And concerning the Ogoni, I said I think. When somones says they think it is this way, that means that they are not sure. I wasn't sure so that is why I worded it like that. I am half Ibibio and I speak it fluently as well as Igbo so do not talk to me about such issues.

The case about Israel, read about the Balfour Declaration and the Palestine Mandate before you talk to us. After WWII, Europe felt sorry for the Jews, but they did not really want them in Europe, so they gave them their homeland back at the expense of the Palestinians. After the British left, the Arab nations decided to recapture Jerusalem, but the Israelis defeated them. Britain gave them their sovereign nation, but Israel fought for it to continue existing.

Most African groups see other groups as burdens. The Niger Deltans see the north and the southwest as burden on them, cause their oil is being used to benefit the whole nation even though other regions are not doing anything. I sympathize with the Ijaw and they have a right to self-determination. No one said splitting up is easy, and blood will be lost, but every people have a right to control their own destiny.

rethink:

I am not surprised. Kosovo is very different to Serbia.

1) Kosovo is made up ethnic Albanians and Albania supported their armed struggle
2) America wanted to cut the power of serbia because serbia was seen as anti west.
3) Kosova does not have oil like some parts of Nigeria( I know you will jump up and say ehen)
4) Kosovo plained their armed struggle very well unlike some parts of Nigeria where some ambitious soldier just shouted biafra.

The Serbs considers Kosovo as their cultural heritage, so of course they will be mad. Yet, why is it different for Kosovo which has such a small population. Even smaller than the Ijaw population.

Biafra may not have been planned well, but it was a response to people being killed in large numbers by another group. When a nation cannot protects its citizens, then those citizens have a right to opt out of that union. The East had every right to leave Nigeria. And continues to have that right. The only reason why we are still here, is because a gun is still pointed at our head due to oil being found in the region. If there was no oil, then we would have already split up.

agitator:

Kosovo fought for it with one voice, where killed and during the peace talks the opted for a separate nation.  They were not just being docile and demanding we want a separation nation and the world rose with one voice and say "yes you need to be separate"

ogoni and (Efiks, Ibibio) are not the same, in fact there is no single similarity between them.  it's the only unique tribe in rivers state without any overlapping language with other ethnic groups.  make proper research before posting rubbish

If they tell you the determination of the Jews you will be baffled. Brother read history books how the Jews got their state.  May be you have not heard of the seven days war between the Jews and the Arabs. you think Israel was created on a platter of gold?  people were on hunger strike, some died boats were left on the high seas.  the nation of Israel was gotten after much blood shedding

USSR split was easy because Russia which was controlling the federation wanted the split and they were not depending on the others, in fact they saw the others as burdens.

But in Nigeria it's the other way round.

The arabs kindly agreed to allow the jews to have some of their land because of their hard ships after the haulocost.Israel was supplied by western powers and began to expand beyond the land given to them by the palestinians. What the jews were doing was taking palestinian land  that is what led to the trouble than the 6 day war against isreal and the surrounding arab countries. What the Jews did was zionism. They did not have to  beg and fight year after year for self-determination. they were just given it. Israel was accepted as a member of the United Nations by majority vote on May 11, 1949, a year after they declared independence. Clearly the united nations gave them independence in the snap of a finger.

The east can be actualized if there is unity. what the 5 governors did by coming together and making an agreement not to go for presidency in 20011 is a start. Groups like ohanaeze missed and are missing the big picture by going against that decision,which is sad. The case of kosovo should be observed carefully and agitators right now showed mark down the reasons for the U.N. thinking about accepting their self-determination as this ?can be used against excuses used by U.N. in denying Eastern nigeria and other african countries.

LIKE I SAID BEFORE WHY SHOULD THERE BE FEDERALISM WENT EACH PART OF THE COUNTRY CAN GO ITS WAY AND AFTERWARD TRADE WITH EACH OTHER AND LIVE PEACEFULLY AND WITHOUT CONFLICT

Biafra may not have been planned well, but it[b] was a response [/b] to people being killed in large numbers by another group. When a nation cannot protects its citizens, then those citizens have a right to opt out of that union.

It was a response not a well planned military and political struggle.

Typical of Africans we want the results of other people but we dont want to work like other people.

If you wanted to break up from Nigeria without firing a shot there is a way to go about it. I am sorry to say that as it is now the people that should lead have their hands in the sweet banga soup.

Majority of the "Igbo" states are not ruled by cow chasing hausa men
nor are they governed by Yoruba Yoruba oyen efemanu tribal marked yoruba man like me.

I hear people shouting we want state police they can always form a voluntary police service that may not need to carry weapons. since we have states it is easier to divide but go and ask your Rulers they want more state  why?

you think the Ijaw will join you and become a second class citizen?

Amongst pure Igbos there is division well I hope your wish come to pass.

I know that language is a temporary arrangement of syllables it changes or dies.

rethink,

You wrote a whole lot of nonsense. I wasn't just taking about Igbos, I was talking about Africans in general. Oromo people, Amhara people, Somali people, Ewe people, Akan people, Yoruba people etc. Why can't we have our own nation states? These borders are not working for us. Will it take another 50 years for you to understand that it is not going to work. People wonder why Africa is not progressing and this is the main reason why.

Look around the world and you see most nations are almost homgenous in nature. Japan, China (Han acct 85% of the population) etc.

Are you trying to say that the Igbo governors are our leaders? Do not make me laugh. They do not represent us. These men are stooges and clearly do not represent the interest of the Ndi Igbo. So I will not say that they are my leaders. You think T. A. Orji is my leader? 

And what does this have to do with the Ijaw people? They have a right to self-determination as well. They can form their own nation for all I care. They have oil, we have oil that is not tapped. No biggie. Oil isn't everything. It seems like Non-Eastern ppl are stuck on oil. Oil is the glue that keeps us together.

Yes, there divisions amongst Igbos, but who cares. There is division among many people. You think Germany is truly united? You got the remnants of Prussia and Bavaria in Germany, but they still having their own nation.

I hope rethink is not trying to derail this thread.

asha 80:

I hope rethink is not trying to derail this thread.

I am pretty sure that is exactly what he is doing.

He wants to turn this into a Nigerian tribal battle, but I wont allow him to do so. This topic is about Africa in general.

It is time to redraw the map of Africa. Then there will be progress.

@aisha80
On the contrary Aisha I am just sharing my view on the matters Arising. Infact this thread is a tribal one and I have my personal view on tribalism

In my prelude I said this thread is a tribal one because you Ezeuche said the basis of self determination should be language. Language is a tribal matter. Now i do believe our languages are very similar but it is very easy to use language to divide nigerian so that the PARASITIC ELITE AND THEIR AGENTS can easily steal the money in a localized manner.

I like to face the truth. The tribal parasitic elites that never raised a finger to fight the white slave masters are saying we want our own countries so that we can steal more.

They say it is better for our tribes man to steal our lands money than some cow chasing Yoruba Yoruba person.

I asked an ugheli guy once that since you guys have oil you are blessed he said " the oil no dey our place" The ughelian speaks Urhobo

rethink:

@aisha80
On the contrary Aisha I am just sharing my view on the matters Arising. Infact this thread is a tribal one and I have my personal view on tribalism

In my prelude I said this thread is a tribal one because you Ezeuche said the basis of self determination should be language. Language is a tribal matter. Now i do believe our languages are very similar but it is very easy to use language to divide nigerian so that the PARASITIC ELITE AND THEIR AGENTS can easily steal the money in a localized manner.

I like to face the truth. The tribal parasitic elites that never raised a finger to fight the white slave masters are saying we want our own countries so that we can steal more.

They say it is better for our tribes man to steal our lands money than some cow chasing Yoruba Yoruba person.

I asked an ugheli guy once that since you guys have oil you are blessed he said " the oil no dey our place" The ughelian speaks Urhobo

First it is asha not aisha and i am not from the north which is what you might think.

First this is about Africa as a whole.Stop narrowing to nigeria.

I do not care about whether oil or no oil so whether you talk to an ughelli guy about oil being found in his back yard has nothing to do with what this thread is all about.

Nobody is talking oil here.

I always have had a problem why European nations can get self determination, but when it comes to Africa, we can't.

simple. african leaders lack the balls to handle their own affairs. they are weak minded.

Bakassi is good example, we have to go to same people that STOLE and ENSLAVE us to decide who should keep Bakassi??

Did UK went to anyone to determine who own FALKLANDS ISLAND which is 10,000km away from UK?

otawa:

simple. african leaders lack the balls to handle their own affairs. they are weak minded.

Bakassi is good example, we have to go to same people that STOLE and ENSLAVE us[b] to decide who should keep Bakassi[/b]??

Did UK went to anyone to determine who own FALKLANDS ISLAND which is 10,000km away from UK?

exactly. I'm not sure, but I hope that it's more complex than lack of proper judgment.

Please, let's not make this an issue of Biafra vs Nigeria. This is a topic on African self-determination. Yes, I understand that the topic of Biafra is [loosely] tied to this, but this ought not become another shouting contest over Biafra.

Look around the world and you see most nations are almost homgenous in nature. Japan, China (Han acct 85% of the population) etc.

read the boldened what makes them Homogenous? color or language

Are you trying to say that the Igbo governors are our leaders?

Since you classified as an Igbo they should be your leaders

Do[b] not make me laugh[/b]. They do not represent us.

Actually I intended to make you laugh. Since there is a "US" and "THEM" who do they represent the hausa man or Yoruba man?

These men are stooges and clearly do not represent the interest of the Ndi Igbo.

They represent the interest of the MARSIANS. Almost missed the "stooges" point.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,xxxxxx are they stooges of Yoruba and Hausa people? Men this Hausa men are very strong. Imagine Ngbatians and Mallam cow chasing abokians with their dead heads doing this?

So I will not say that they are my leaders. You think T. A. Orji is my leader?  

I can just see Orji Uzor kalu prostrate to an Oba in my village or sorry know he was given the saraudna(or some cooked up name title) of borno state with that thing that osama wears arround his head.