Rhino.3dm:

From the above i think its very wrong to categorize a liar and murderer in thesame group. . . .
Just assume because i lied (of course i do sometimes) and i was convicted for multiple life sentences. . . Even in north korea or District 9 that doesn't make sense at all and i called it unbeatable height of injustice.

i know  you can argue that  everything boils down to intentions. . . Can an intended muderer(not attempted murderer) be a murderer? ?. . . .

This is the first time am totally rejecting your answer my lady, in the past i have struggle to chew some with bitterness. . . Thus bring in another concept or take my next question as follow. . . . . . .


Will God forgive crime that is meted on someone else? ?   
      for instance i lost my money to armed robbery. . . And the arm robbers later seek for forgiveness from God will he forgive them? ?

Rhino.3dm:

. . . How do we come to that? Yet people still cry foul whenever they percieved injustice been meted to them biasly or ortherwise.

So now i ask you again. . . .

How do people come to the conlusion that the bread they are supposed to buy 20 naira and been sold at 50 naira is an injustice or cheating on them?

. . . No matter your depth of reasoning or method of application, justice should be thesame and equal and also proportional to the crime commited and anything less or more CAN NEVER be called justice and rather INJUSTICE. . . . .thus can never be from God or of God because my concept of God is JUST and he ceases to God the day he becomes UNJUST.
. . . . . .tu Capito tutti ?

Rhino.3dm:

I believe that justice is a subconcious attribute institute in our very nature as humans.
My concept is that there is a clear line between just and unjust and who set premises has to be devine. Ideally when one says sin is sin metaphorically i dont have problem with that considering the motivation but the consequencies of killing cannot be thesame. . .

No matter what criterion you are using a suicide bomber that kills thousand CAN NEVER be in thesame category with a 419er.

Common take a look a our judiciary system and ask you self. . . . .

seyibrown:

Can I assume that 'your concept of God' did not set up our (The Nigerian) judiciary system and that the crimes and punishments were written and decided by men? Or did he set it up?

Where does your belief that 'justice should be equal and proportional to the crime committed come from'? Can you point me to where your 'concept of God'/God speaks/writes/tells you or infers that 'a suicide bomber is not in the same 'sinner league' as a 419er?

I am certain that most judiciary systems will mete out a greater punishment on a suicide bomber (If he didn't die in the process) than they would on a fraudster. Is this where your logic comes from?

As an example, what would you classify as equal and proportional punishment for someone who forces or manipulates an 8 year old into having sex with them? Does your God say how he will treat people who do things like this?

Rhino.3dm:

You are kind of jumping lines or faster. What i think what is important here is that we have to establish the fact or not that the gravity of sin/offence should vary i.e lair is not equal to a murderer . . . Then we can now proceed to what should be the appropriate punishment.

Or are you agreeing with my perspection that sin(s) are/should not be thesame? ?

seyibrown:

Here is my answer to your question on whether sin is equal (before Jehovah):


You were right in saying that I would talk about intentions. Yes, we all know that people pretend all the time. The Yorubas say ‘Awo fele bo’nu, ko je ki ari ikun asebi’. Basically, you can’t see how much evil is in a man’s heart by his outward covering.

Proverbs 23:7 (Amplified Bible) reads
7For as he thinks in his heart, so is he. As one who reckons, he says to you, eat and drink, yet his heart is not with you [but is grudging the cost].

The inner man is the real man.

Does everyone who took part in the October 1st celebrations really love Nigeria? The same Nigerians who oppress, harass, rob, despoil, murder and keep other Nigerians in a state of perpetual poverty. In all their regalia, you’d think they are the best people on earth. Yes, God looks at the heart. When they take a front seat in Church on Sunday, God sees their hearts. When they leave Church and go back to oppressing the people, God still sees their heart. God also sees the heart of that poor homeless man who has been reduced to scavenging the rubbish heaps for his daily meal and who still strives to be a good Nigerian.

1 Samuel 16:7 (Amplified Bible)
7But the Lord said to Samuel, Look not on his appearance or at the height of his stature, for I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees; for man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.

[b] There is more inside of a man than you can see from the outside.


You would tell your son not to commit armed robbery because he could get killed in the process of robbery; he would be assaulting other people and taking their hard-earned money off them; and he could get arrested, convicted ,  and shot for it! There are other things you would tell your son not to do because you see the bigger picture! God sees the bigger picture, we see some of it. Every commandment God gave is for our own good. Deviation from God’s guidelines will leave you to face the consequences of not walking in the way he instructed. HE SEES THE BIGGER PICTURE. Whether we see it or not, there is consequence for every action we take. It might be immediate or it could take years to catch up but the consequences are waiting here on earth and in the afterlife.


God’s word says that a man will reap whatever he sows! The law of seed and harvest means that he will reap it some hundred-fold or more. Think of a man who plants a seed of corn; when it’s harvest time, he does not reap one grain of corn, he reaps at least one corn cob with at least 200 corn grains on it! When a man sows a seed of armed robbery causing other people pain, he should expect to receive that kind of pain at least one-hundred times.

God says ‘love your neighbour as yourself’. He saw the bigger picture of what would happen when man does not care about the man next to him, when man thinks only of his own pleasure not caring who he hurts in the process of fulfilling his desires. For example, a paedophile who wants (and takes) sexual pleasure for a child who, not caring that the child is too young, not his wife, somebody else’s daughter; that the parents would not approve; and that he is forcing himself on the child or getting the child to cooperate/participate by manipulation (deception, covering up his unlawful/immoral intent). In Matthew, Jesus was clear about people who coerce or manipulate children to engage in wrong conduct .

Matthew 18:6 (Amplified Bible) [/b]
6But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in and [a]acknowledge and cleave to Me to stumble and sin [that is, who entices him or hinders him in right conduct or thought], it would be better (more expedient and profitable or advantageous) for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be sunk in the depth of the sea.

He also says not to oppress the poor, the needy and the vulnerable. They will cry to the just God to give them the justice due to them in their pain and agony.

I believe God will give us justice for every person who has taken advantage of us in our vulnerability and powerlessness. See verse below:

2 Thessalonians 1:4-10 (Amplified Bible)
4And this is a cause of our mentioning you with pride among the churches (assemblies) of God for your steadfastness (your unflinching endurance and patience) and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecutions and crushing distresses and afflictions under which you are holding up.
    5This is positive proof of the just and right judgment of God to the end that you may be deemed deserving of His kingdom [a plain token of His fair verdict which designs that you should be made and counted worthy of the kingdom of God], for the sake of which you are also suffering.
    6[It is a fair decision] since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with distress and affliction those who distress and afflict you,
    7And to [[a]recompense] you who are so distressed and afflicted [by granting you] relief and rest along with us [your fellow sufferers] when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire,
    8To deal out retribution (chastisement and vengeance) upon those who do not know or perceive or become acquainted with God, and [upon those] who ignore and refuse to obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    9Such people will pay the penalty and suffer the punishment of everlasting ruin (destruction and perdition) and eternal exclusion and banishment from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
    10When He comes to be glorified in His saints [on that day He will be made more glorious in His consecrated people], and [He will] be marveled at and admired [in His glory reflected] in all who have believed [who have adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Him], because our witnessing among you was confidently accepted and believed [and confirmed in your lives].

I also know that God recompenses his children when they suffer from the afflictions of their fellow man.

Isaiah 61:7 (King James Version)
7For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.



[b]You would tell your daughter to be back home at a certain time because you see the bigger picture. You know the possible dangers out there at night. If she disobeys you, hangs out late and gets shot or despoiled, you did not arrange the despoiler or the shooter. You had advised her out of your love for her. You warned her out of your love for her. She would bear the consequences of her disobedience to you and live with the consequences of the ‘evil’ that was done to her by ‘somebody else who had chosen to disobey God by not loving his neighbour’. Unfortunately, as a loving father, you would hurt too. You would be angry with the person who hurt your daughter, you would want them apprehended, tried, convicted and jailed or even executed.

Now, if this person responsible for your daughter’s hurt turn up at your door a month later and starts pleading for forgiveness. They say they realise what they did was bad, and how wicked they had been, would never do it again, would go for counselling, and maybe even promised to go give themselves up to the police. And if they turned out to be the child your ex-girlfriend/ ex-wife took away from you years ago. What would you do?

God tells us not to let the sun go down on our anger. He encourages us to forgive as he forgives us. When we forgive, we let go of any bitterness towards whoever hurt us. We might still be hurting but we instead ask God to recompense us make right what has been put wrong by our fellow man. Love covers a multitude of sins. We forgive that person and the rest is between them and the ultimate Judge. Those who hurt their fellow man have a choice to repent and turn from their evil ways or die in their sin.

Even if you choose to forgive your son, the society might  not (If they knew what he did). Iya Sikira next door will say ‘don’t leave my daughter with him o’! Mama Bose and the rest of the neighbours will gossip behind his back. An outsider might even be angry enough or tempted to bring totally false accusations against him despite the fact that you and your daughter have completely forgiven him and he has truly turned from his bad ways.

That means there is Natural Justice, Societal (Human rationality) Justice and Supernatural/Divine Justice. God is also the father of us all. He offers grace and forgiveness  to his children - all of them, but it's up to the child to accept it.



GOD IS JUST – HE GIVES EVERY MAN THE CHANCE TO TURN FROM THEIR SIN AND NOT DIE IN IT.

Ezekiel 18 (Amplified Bible) [/b]
1THE WORD of the Lord came to me again, saying,
    2What do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
    3As I live, says the Lord God, you shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
    4Behold, all souls are Mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine; the soul that sins, it shall die.(A)
    5But if a man is [uncompromisingly] righteous (upright and in right standing with God) and does what is lawful and right,
    6And has not eaten [at the idol shrines] upon the mountains nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, has not defiled his neighbor's wife nor come near to a woman in her time of impurity,
    7And has not wronged anyone but has restored to the debtor his pledge, has taken nothing by robbery but has given his bread to the hungry and has covered the unclothed with a garment,
    8Who does not charge interest or percentage of increase on what he lends [in compassion], who withholds his hand from iniquity, who executes true justice between man and man,
    9Who has walked in My statutes and kept My ordinances, to deal justly; [then] he is [truly] righteous; he shall surely live, says the Lord God.(B)
    10If he begets a son who is a robber or a shedder of blood, who does to a brother either of these sins of violence,
    11And leaves undone all of the duties [of a righteous man], and has even eaten [the food set before idols] on the mountains and defiled his neighbor's wife,
    12Has wronged the poor and needy, has taken by robbery, has not restored [to the debtor] his pledge, has lifted up his eyes to the idols, has committed abomination (things hateful and exceedingly vile in the eyes of God),
    13And has charged interest or percentage of increase on what he has loaned [in supposed compassion]; shall he then live? He shall not live! He has done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.
    14But if this wicked man begets a son who sees all the sins which his father has committed, and considers and fears [God] and does not do like his father,
    15Who has not eaten [food set before idols] upon the mountains nor has lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, has not defiled his neighbor's wife,
    16Nor wronged anyone, nor has taken anything in pledge, nor has taken by robbery but has given his bread to the hungry and has covered the unclothed with a garment,
    17Who has withdrawn his hand from [oppressing] the poor, who has not received interest or increase [from the needy] but has executed My ordinances and has walked in My statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father; he shall surely live.
    18As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, robbed his brother, and did that which is not good among his people, behold, he shall die for his iniquity and guilt.
    19Yet do you say, Why does not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son has done that which is lawful and right and has kept all My statutes and has done them, he shall surely live.
    20The soul that sins, it [is the one that] shall die. The son shall not bear and be punished for the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear and be punished for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him only, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon the wicked only.
    21But if the wicked man turns from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all My statutes and does that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
    22None of his transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; for his righteousness which he has executed [for his moral and spiritual rectitude in every area and relation], he shall live.
    23Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked? says the Lord, and not rather that he should turn from his evil way and return [to his God] and live?
    24But if the righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? None of his righteous deeds which he has done shall be remembered. In his trespass that he has trespassed and in his sin that he has sinned, in them shall he die.
    25Yet you say, The way of the Lord is not fair and just. Hear now, O house of Israel: Is not My way fair and just? Are not your ways unfair and unjust?
    26When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and dies in his sins, for his iniquity that he has done he shall die.
    27Again, when the wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and does that which is lawful and right, he shall save his life.
    28Because he considers and turns away from all his transgressions which he has committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
    29Yet says the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not fair and just! O house of Israel, are not My ways fair and just? Are not your ways unfair and unjust?
    30Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, says the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin and so shall they not be a stumbling block to you.(C)
    31Cast away from you all your transgressions by which you have transgressed against Me, and make you a new mind and heart and a new spirit. For why will you die, O house of Israel?(D)
    32For I have no pleasure in the death of him who dies, says the Lord God. Therefore turn (be converted) and live!

There are physical and spiritual consequences for every action we take. That is why it is better to follow God’s instructions and let him take care of the consequences.


Do you know the parable of the prodigal son? See link: (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2015:11-32&version=AMP). He was welcomed back home with so much joy and celebration when he came back home. There is joy in heaven for every sinner that repents. That covers every transgressor, every deviator from God’s laws – liar, murderer, despoiler, thief, fornicator or homosexual.


Psalm 103:8-14 (Amplified Bible)
8The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and plenteous in mercy and loving-kindness.(A)
    9He will not always chide or be contending, neither will He keep His anger forever or hold a grudge.
    10He has not dealt with us after our sins nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
    11For as the heavens are high above the earth, so great are His mercy and loving-kindness toward those who reverently and worshipfully fear Him.
    12As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us.
    13As a father loves and pities his children, so the Lord loves and pities those who fear Him [with reverence, worship, and awe].
    14For He knows our frame, He [earnestly] remembers and imprints [on His heart] that we are dust.

[b]God knows us. He knows we are prone to sin and he has made provision to overcome sin. He has made provision to approach the throne of grace in time of need. He has made provision for us to be able to turn away from sin. Sin is unholiness. Without holiness, we will not see God. He has given us the chance to escape the wages of all sin by the blood of Jesus which washes away our sins and makes us white as snow.

We all stem from God. We are all accountable for our actions to the one who has rightly instructed us the path to follow if we ever deviate. We are all related to him and should not choose to alienate ourselves from the Father who loves us, who knows what we don’t know, and wants the best for us.

I will say again that there is Natural Justice, Societal Justice and Supernatural/Divine Justice.

In this natural realm, the law of seed and harvest is engaged when we commit sin (sow a bad seed), in that we reap hundred-fold or more of whatever sin we commit. We cannot also forget the societal aspect of punishment as may be stipulated by the judiciary/ society. We know that society (by human rationality) grades offences (sin/evil) and attaches differing levels of punishment.

Man (in his natural limitations) and Human Society cannot preside over supernatural/divine Judgement as that office belongs to God, therefore, man cannot determine or fathom ‘how’ God will judge those who choose to die in sin, whether they die as a liar, murderer or adulterer; we cannot determine that he should treat liars differently from adulterers or murders. I have found nowhere in his word where he suggests or expressly says that he will classify liars into a ‘sinner league’ separate from the murderers ‘sinner league’. However, he does make it clear in his word that ‘the (ultimate spiritual) wages of sin is death’ and his son Jesus Christ is the only escape route. All sin is therefore equal before God when it comes to Divine judgement [/b]

Rhino.3dm:

Will God forgive crime that is meted on someone else? ?
for instance i lost my money to armed robbery. . . And the armed robbers later seek for forgiveness from God will he forgive them? ?

seyibrown:

Will I be right in concluding that your inferences/conclusion on the matter of 'sin equality' are solely yours(rational) and have not come from the God you serve, and that he does he not give you any advice on how to live/conduct your life in this world ?

Rhino.3dm:

The rationality and ability of humans to inquire and understand things justly is in our very nature. am not trying to introduce any argument about free will, which is a known fact. there are laws of nature which i believe God set which are proportional to certain parameters and can be affected by some constraints. remember you said God is perfect and anything less is what?

i need no one to tell me to eat neither do i need any person or book to tell me to urinate cos it is in my very nature to understand things in accordance to laws of nature(God) so, why do i need anyone to tell me that 5 naira is not equal to 20 naira or a suicide bomber is not equal to 419ner. being that no level of sin was mention in your scripture doesnt means that there is none.
hope you understand where am coming from?