Lenny9000:

@DonOvero
I didn’t bother reading most of your stuff about Christianity not because I am being rude, but because that part is settled and makes no sense to argue. See it this way "I am eating rice and chicken" and someone that believes he is extra smart tells me no you are not eating, but actually sleeping, just your mind playing ticks on you. So do I argue with such? Nope! I will just continue wacking and enjoying my rice and chicken. Why waste time arguing with the self styled expert, so my food can get cold? Some of us Christians have personal and physical proofs of why we say we are Christians. And yes I have heard every talk/argument on this topic, Again its like this, I pray and ask God for a shoe and a long lost friend appears and gives me a brad new shoe and I say Thank you God, but the self style expert says its coincidence Bla! bla!, Next I pray for 1000bucks and my brother who knows nothing of it gives me 1000bucks and again I say thank you God and the self style expert says its coincidence, And it continues to a sick person the doctor has left for dead and after praying he walks, I say Thanks to God expert says body heals itself, To me there is no argument here. I am happy with my personal results, the self style expert is happy with his knowledge/explanation, so both of us are cool and can live happily. But trouble will come when the self styled expert wants/tries to force his opinion down my throat because those coincidences never ever happens until I pray and ask God for help, As for me and God, it is personal. I got my most “PRECIOUS” by God’s grace so I might as well be the only one alive that believes in God. No shaking!

Now back to the juju and stuff… you still didn’t make any valid point on the issues raised on my post. I said whenever you wanna go to Naija, holla! And then we can see the rain makers or do I have to pay your trip? It is after the rainmakers doesn’t convince you, then you can continue in your disbelieve until then I suggest you hold your peace cos no point in going back and forth, Evil people do ritual killing and make money, By the way what was that Governor Oji doing in that shine? Taking a bath? I assume you have seen the pics on this site. Back to Discovery Channel, they show some dark stuff that we term juju so what are we arguing about. Speak to people that have actually visited Indian and see the power of some forces instead of arguing trying to convince yourself. If you are 100% sure of what you are saying visit India or any worshipper/priest of “Kali” and say you don’t believe in juju/dark force and see if you will come out alive. Please there are certain things that are a million years way beyond you, the Western people know these, some are involved in it but come out in the open and denounce it as fantasy and you clap! In truth you are the one being deceived because the people you are championing their theories actually believe and practice them in secret. Yes it is Secretive, because it is Dark.
Peace

I gat one word for these: ~~~~~> CLASSIC !!!

Timmi:

@ Donevero:

As an atheist, you seem to act counter to others belief, without believing in anything. That in itself is a fallacy. Your premise as an atheist is that God does not exist and as such those that believe in God are simple minded and cannot reason nor rationalize. That again is a fallacy and as a student of psychology, you should know that your claim as an atheist and not believing in anything is not logical.

However, I want to address some issues that you should logically consider in your unbelieving mind.

1. If God does not exist, then all the things that we experienced and see must have come into being by happenstance. That is not logical, the orderliness and the complexity of things around us, even some that up till now still defies scientific explanation, showed that there is a higher being that created this complexity and orderliness.

2. Science did not discover anything, but rather tries to find explanation for what has been created. Everything has been created, we as humans are trying to find out the mechanism of these creations and how we can best apply these intricacies to resolve other human problems.

3. God created a perfect man in Adam and prepared a place for him to nurture, but God gave man a choice by presenting Adam the two trees, explained the consequences of choosing either one of them and allowed Adam to make his choice. That in itself is a God like quality, for our parents, growing up rarely gave us a choice. God instituted a choice theory so as not to create a zombie.

4. What we choose then is up to us, just as you have choosing not to believe in God and God allowed you to choose whether to believe in Him or not knowing the consequences of your choice.

5. You seems to know some parts of the Bible, but you have chosen to use the areas that you feel like using while using them also out of context. For if you have taken time to read through the old Testament, you would have seen where God told His people exactly what will happen in the future - some as far off as 400-years, forewarned them and told them what they should do to prevent such occurrence and yet they choose to do the opposite and hence they have to face the consequence of their choices. Same thing applies now, we are allowed to choose knowing the consequences of our action or inaction, however, once we choose, we have no control over the consequence.

In closing, let me remind you of what the Lord - Jesus Christ said in Luke 9:56 - "For the son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."

I wish you well in your choices, but I advise that you choose right.

Your explanation is as plain as the word: ~~~> CLEAR !!!

Debroslink:

WE HAVE PASTORS (REAL AND FAKE) WHO PERFORM MIRACLES. PLS WHERE ARE THEY GETTING THEIR MIRACLE POWERS 4RM??


DONOVERO, PLS JUST COME 2 IJEBU-ODE DURING HER FESTIVALS AND SEE LIVE JUJU ON DISPLAY. HAVE U SEEN A MAN FLYING IN D SKY ON BROAD DAY LIGHT IN FRONT OF PEOPLE. OR WHAT CAN U SAY OF ORO FESTIVALS IN SOME TOWNS IN OGUN STATE?

PAY A VISIT 2 IJEBU-IGBO AND SEE THINGS 4 URSELF.

REMEMBER, SEEING IS BELIEVING,


JUJU IS REAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SATAN IS REAL!!!!!!!

GOD IS REAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I dey feel u broda !

You know, just like dey say: what an elderly man sees wen he bends down, a child cannot see it even if he climbs on a tree!

Enough kudos to @Lenny b'cos, he has decided to spend his time and effort to take the 'Thomas' of these thread when he gets to Nigeria to see what we havin been seein for yrs.

I just pray and wish he visits NGR durin the 'Ijebu festival' let me know if he'll go back home dsame as he came !

Lenny9000:

@DonOvero

I am happy with my personal results, the self style expert is happy with his knowledge/explanation, so both of us are cool and can live happily. BUT TROUBLE WILL COME WHEN THE SELF STYLED EXPERT WANTS/TRIES TO FORCE HIS OPINION DOWN MY THROAT BECAUSE THOSE COINCIDENCES NEVER EVER HAPPENS

God bless you my broda !!!

And that's exactly what is happenin now !

I told that 'John Thomas' to believe to himself that there's nothin like juju, and let those that believes that juju does exist be, and nottin else. And i also told him that i can only laugh at those tryin to convince him with one logic or the other. But my broda, no need of tellin you what i got in return, you can go back from the beginin of the arguement and see it yourself. why? b'cos i refused to share his world view, he called me all sorts of names that did no harm to my PC, not to talk of affectin me phisically or financialy. Just like som1 said initialy, that guy needs deliverance, seriously !!!

Even Tensor gave up on him b'cos, he's an atheist and knows nottin about God so no need of wastin time and energy with him b'cos argueing with him is like lookin for a way to make heaven and askin satan for advice !!!

Bros Lenny, i thank you one's again for bringin up these statement, i believe it'll help that 'Thomas' to change his mentality !

@Invisible n DonOvo
i challenge anybody that has doubts to come to Enugu for us to further examine some magics which i've seen myself. I stay in Lagos but i'm currently in Enugu right now. How do go expect me to go on and type prove 4u while you dont believe any of my personal experience. I hate Philosopher bcoz they dont research or invest on research studies. They can only buy books from those accient philosophers. Philosophers has no base. They rely on scientists,physicians to bring out facts. But cannot do their own researchs. They r always busy quating Socrates,Aristotle,Heraclitus,etc who they believe are the wisest humans eva. Is is bcoz you did get to read about my Dad or mum. Those peaple are not more intelligent than i'm. 'Socrates say', 'they say' they say', Live those accient dump as5es and lets face reality.hencefort, u remain an a5shole if u stil want to remain there and ask me to type some prove over the net. I have agreed to pay 4all bills/expences if i fail to show u a magician u will further convince u that magic exist.

^ Pure ignorance- Philosophy is the most intellectual of all disciplines. yes if juju is not logical then it does not exist.

Well the topic is misleading as it implies that juju or voodoo is a stand alone practice. That is not the case as all their practitioners are just agents of the Devil or Satan.

Yes these satanic priests or occultic personalities  may indeed be able to perform acts that seemingly defy the laws of science but that is just to dazzle and confuse their victims. At the end of the day juju just impoverishes those who come into contact with it. They do this by stealing by destroying and killing the good things they come in contact with and have prevailing power over. Countries like Benin Republic and Haiti where voodoo is widely practised are also known for their widespread and debilitating  poverty,ignorance and disease.

And no, they are not capable of performing their conjuring tricks in a neutral location as it is from within their base that their powers are derived and in which the accompanying covenants and sacrifices are made. Even the presence and prayers of a single strong Christian in the location would be enough to disable any evil powers these magicians have.

That is not to say that there are no black magic festivals where such conjuring tricks are performed. Again their sole purpose is to dazzle, confuse amd frighten those unwise enough to attend such festivals.

to know some parts of the Bible, but you have chosen to use the areas that you feel like using while using them also out of context.  For if you have taken time to read through the old Testament, you would have seen where God told His people exactly what will happen in the future - some as far off as 400-years, forewarned them and told them what they should do to prevent such occurrence and yet they choose to do the opposite and hence they have to face the consequence of their choices.  Same thing applies now, we are allowed to choose knowing the consequences of our action or inaction, however, once we choose, we have no control over the consequence.

Quick questions to all the religious people- have u ever bothered to learn the history of the bible or did you think it cam e from above- locked, stocked and ready?

 Science did not discover anything, but rather tries to find explanation for what has been created.  Everything has been created, we as humans are trying to find out the mechanism of these creations and how we can best apply these intricacies to resolve other human problems.

Creation is a primitive thought. The idea that we have to come from somewhere or be created by something is for only those with simple minds. If you want a better explanation how the universe can exist without a creator please go and talk to a quantum physicist.

So then who created God? If you can assert than God is an independent entity that "can be" or exist without the support from another source, then it follows that the universe can also be such an entity (and its constituents) and so no need for God. Contradictory argument itself.

1.  If God does not exist, then all the things that we experienced and see must have come into being by happenstance.  That is not logical, the orderliness and the complexity of things around us, even some that up till now still defies scientific explanation, showed that there is a higher being that created this complexity and orderliness.

The orderliness and complexity amongst us has been due to thermodynamics. I would assume that due to several random events that consisted of several permutations, the universe came to be. i.e several combinations of elements were made b4 an "ideal" fit was found. That is why the universe is so old. Trial and error to create complexity.

Can people also explain how it is possible for scientists to display evolution in a test tube?

^Sefago, I know you are an atheist and so no I won't answer your questions as you don't have any locus standi to question anybody's faith seeing you don't have faith yourself.
Anybody that is a Christian that decides to answer your questions would just be led a blind alley of argument and counter argument which would be an exercise in futility.
You need faith and not logical arguments for you to be able to fully understand Christianity.

^ Yes, but I have the right to question the source of the faith. Faith without no source makes you no different from a zombie.

Moreover, how do you know I am atheist. I just believe people must justify their beliefs, opinions, and ideas of sort. I am always indifferent to their ideas but at least you must have a compelling justification. I dont do right or wrong.

@Sefago
Well let me attempt to play you at your own clever little scientific game.

First of all I ask you to ponder infinity and the infinitesmal. Just think about it deeply and meditatively. Then move on to infinite space-time. If youre done with that then you can move over to infinite love, understanding and wisdom.

From that point  on hopefully it should not be too difficult for you to conceive of a Being, called Yahweh, that is the very embodiment of these qualities and always will be and always has been.

First of all I ask you to ponder infinity and the infinitesmal. Just think about it deeply and meditatively. Then move on to infinite space-time. If youre done with that then you can move over to infinite love, understanding and wisdom.

From that point  on hopefully it should not be too difficult for you to conceive of a Being, called Yahweh, that is the very embodiment of these qualities and always will be and always has been.

But does "it" exist?

You have presented a thought experiment that could be true- yes a being exist that is unadulterated good, love, wisdom and understanding- but you have not proven his existence.

Let me give you a paradigm from the classical china brain experiment. For example, if everyone in china (about a billion + people in population) organized themselves as a brain with each person being a neuron and acting like a neuron (the brain consists of a billion neurones)- would this create a conscious mind?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_brain

You have not shown your link between logic and occurrence. Moreover, what dictates that such a pure being has to be the christian God- why can it not be Allah, Shiva or any of those sorts

What makes your religion right?

Well I just have to say that the adherents of Islam, Hinduism, Shintoism, etc etc have never claimed for instance that their gods possess or are capable of posessing for instance infinite love. On the contrary they have a much more limited role.

That is by the way. The point I'm making is that you cannot expect to understand any religion without faith which would itself open your mind and spirit  to new ways of thinking and living.

Your other point's theme would only be realised by collective brainwashing and of itself is highly devilish and satanic.

I can't believe what im seeing !!!

Pardon me if am wrong, but the topic is about juju and our 'personal' experience of it? Then why all these invasion of philosophers, psychologists, atheists, christians, muslims, hindu, buddists? Please lets stick to the point and not derail this thread, juju will always exist in the minds of those that thinks it exist, nowhere else. I have explanations for everything that have ever happened to me, for some people though, they let others read meanings into all their affairs for them. Make good profit and they will say its juju. Have a llittle accident and someone will tell you enemies are in action, fall sick of malaria and people will suggest a native doctor.

Juju is just like a religion, its an illusion.

Damn I should have my own rap album

It is proper to say, Otumokpu (juju) does exist but I do not practice it than to deny it completely. Forumites, do not be deceived, Juju does exist but do not adhere to it.
I have seen a man drink palm wine with a basket some years back. I watched this live and till date NTA ABA has a video of it for proof. This happened at Ozuruimo festival, Owerri in1993.

Andre Uweh:

It is proper to say, Otumokpu (juju) does exist but I do not practice it than to deny it completely. Forumites, do not be deceived, Juju does exist but do not adhere to it.
I have seen a man drink palm wine with a basket some years back. I watched this live and till date NTA ABA has a video of it for proof. This happened at Ozuruimo festival, Owerri in1993.

Sorry to burst your bubble brother, I have watched closely a masquerade dance where majic is practiced. They made a very tight little basket and poured well mixed starch solution inside. It was almost like a cellophane bag sealing every crack in the basket, and yes, it was used to drink pammy!
The problem is that little children like you who watch only TV believe every fallacy uttered by illiterate old folks in the villages.

invisible!:

Sorry to burst your bubble brother, I have watched closely a masquerade dance where majic is practiced. They made a very tight little basket and poured well mixed starch solution inside. It was almost like a cellophane bag sealing every crack in the basket, and yes, it was used to drink pammy!
The problem is that little children like you who watch only TV believe every fallacy uttered by illiterate old folks in the villages.

Now that is funny! . Yes it shouldn't be forgotten that these juju men are masters of deception and subterfuge. They will use every devious strategm to lure those unwise enough to take them seriously.

invisible!:

Sorry to burst your bubble brother, I have watched closely a masquerade dance where majic is practiced. They made a very tight little basket and poured well mixed starch solution inside. It was almost like a cellophane bag sealing every crack in the basket, and yes, it was used to drink pammy!
The problem is that little children like you who watch only TV believe every fallacy uttered by illiterate old folks in the villages.

Clown,don't be silly, I did not say I watched it on Tv. I said that I saw it live at Owerri cultural festival. M0ron, Why not reread my post before chatting crap.

Andre Uweh:

Clown,don't be silly, I did not say I watched it on Tv. I said that I saw it live at Owerri cultural festival. M0ron, Why not reread my post before chatting crap.

Put your head inside the freezer near you for five minutes, remove your head and take a deep breath, then reread your post.

Andre Uweh:

It is proper to say, Otumokpu (juju) does exist but I do not practice it than to deny it completely. Forumites, do not be deceived, Juju does exist but do not adhere to it.
I have seen a man drink palm wine with a basket some years back. I watched this live and till date NTA ABA has a video of it for proof. This happened at Ozuruimo festival, Owerri in1993.

You watched a live festival of Ozuruimo from NTA ABA in 1993, you probably bought the video for proof sake. Baba, you are guilty of watchery!

invisible!:

Put your head inside the freezer near you for five minutes, remove your head and take a deep breath, then reread your post.You watched a live festival of Ozuruimo from NTA ABA in 1993, you probably bought the video for proof sake. Baba, you are guilty of watchery!

Surely this iidiot has a problem with comprehension. In 1993, if at all you were born by then as your reasoning suggest, I saw it live a man drinking water from a basket. The NTA Aba had this programme also covered and it was relayed in their station severally.
Mr Whoopsy, do you even know what is Ozuruimo festival, impotent retardo.

Don't care about juju unless we can use Juju to increase food or do something good.

Andre Uweh:

Surely this iidiot has a problem with comprehension. In 1993, if at all you were born by then as your reasoning suggest, I saw it live a man drinking water from a basket. The NTA Aba had this programme also covered and it was relayed in their station severally.
Mr Whoopsy, do you even know what is Ozuruimo festival, impotent retardo.

Clean the corners of your mouth, you are foaming from your mouth. Control your temper and do some sober thinking, take some lesson on anger management lest you burst an artery.
The truth is that when some people who have allowed others to reason with their brain come online and see superior logic, they fail to understand, but who will blame them, since they have outsourced their reasoning faculty to Ijebu Ode. They resort to insults but will sadly miss the lesson. Enjoy your ignorance sha.

udezue:

Don't care about juju unless we can use Juju to increase food or do something good.

Abi oooo my brother. They will tell you its only bad things juju can achieve. Illiterate villagers worshipping juju and expecting their christian children to send them feeding money, why dont the juju provide food, clothes and other amenities so their kids can concentrate of building their young lives? The ironies of this life!

I have continual read some ludicrous things posted here. Tensor main argument for not debating is if you have no faith, then you cannot question my faith. "Good reasoning"

"Governor, do you believe it is right for you to enrich yourself at the expense of the citizens?"
"mumu!! what do you believe?"
" I believe it is wrong as evident by these facts, so can you please answer the question"
"My friend, if you don't believe then I will not answer"

It is a good thing that 'Christ' did not use the same reasoning when asked what he believed in and to explain it.
It is a good things that when someone asks the , Father, rev, vic etc the question they did not adopt you idiot approach.

Can you read what you type, AS YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN ANYTHING I WILL NOT ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS

Ignorant thinking. If you asked an scientist to prove the earth was around longer than the 6-8000 the bible suggests, what do you imagine the outcry would be if he said "as you believe in the bible I will not answer you"

You Ignorance betrays you.

Timmi:

@ Donevero:

As an atheist, you seem to act counter to others belief, without believing in anything. That in itself is a fallacy. Your premise as an atheist is that God does not exist and as such those that believe in God are simple minded and cannot reason nor rationalize. That again is a fallacy and as a student of psychology, you should know that your claim as an atheist and not believing in anything is not logical.

However, I want to address some issues that you should logically consider in your unbelieving mind.

1. If God does not exist, then all the things that we experienced and see must have come into being by happenstance. That is not logical, the orderliness and the complexity of things around us, even some that up till now still defies scientific explanation, showed that there is a higher being that created this complexity and orderliness.

2. Science did not discover anything, but rather tries to find explanation for what has been created. Everything has been created, we as humans are trying to find out the mechanism of these creations and how we can best apply these intricacies to resolve other human problems.

3. God created a perfect man in Adam and prepared a place for him to nurture, but God gave man a choice by presenting Adam the two trees, explained the consequences of choosing either one of them and allowed Adam to make his choice. That in itself is a God like quality, for our parents, growing up rarely gave us a choice. God instituted a choice theory so as not to create a zombie.

4. What we choose then is up to us, just as you have choosing not to believe in God and God allowed you to choose whether to believe in Him or not knowing the consequences of your choice.

5. You seems to know some parts of the Bible, but you have chosen to use the areas that you feel like using while using them also out of context. For if you have taken time to read through the old Testament, you would have seen where God told His people exactly what will happen in the future - some as far off as 400-years, forewarned them and told them what they should do to prevent such occurrence and yet they choose to do the opposite and hence they have to face the consequence of their choices. Same thing applies now, we are allowed to choose knowing the consequences of our action or inaction, however, once we choose, we have no control over the consequence.

In closing, let me remind you of what the Lord - Jesus Christ said in Luke 9:56 - "For the son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."

I wish you well in your choices, but I advise that you choose right.

This so ridiculous, and unlike Tensor the ignoramus I will answer your questions and look forward to your respone.

Point 1. Your argument is redundant. If the world is so complex and orderliness and something must have created it. Then the thing that created it must too be complex so who created God. If your response is that nothing made God, then why cant the same rationale be used for the universe? if you say God always existed, then how did he come to exist? if something so complex had to be created then why cant have something created something as complex as God?

Point 2. Science did not discover anything? LOL, type into google, scientific discoveries, let us not be lazy now, the answers are right there.

Point 3, How can you say god created a choice? if he is all knowing and all powerful and he knew we would eat the apple, how was that a choice when it was already predetermined? If he did not know what we would choose then he cannot be all that powerful.

Point 4 does not ask anything

Point 5, I have read the bible back to front, you do understand that is it mans interpretation of stories he heard many centuries ago, re written, re hashed, some gospels included some excluded. Have you even read it?

DonOvero:

I have continual read some ludicrous things posted here. Tensor main argument for not debating is if you have no faith, then you cannot question my faith. "Good reasoning"

My point remains that you as a person that has no faith whatsoever has no locus standi to question another person's faith. It would make no sense for a person of faith to join issues with you over his faith or even the very basis for his faith as you would not understand. Its not something that can be comprehended by pure reason.
This is shown in your reply to Timmi where instead of stating your own views on for instance how the universe was created, you simply resorted to lampooning his own views on that.

Andre Uweh:

It is proper to say, Otumokpu (juju) does exist but I do not practice it than to deny it completely. Forumites, do not be deceived, Juju does exist but do not adhere to it.
I have seen a man drink palm wine with a basket some years back. I watched this live and till date NTA ABA has a video of it for proof. This happened at Ozuruimo festival, Owerri in1993.

I don't know how you can come up with such claims as you were simply a bystander at the satanic festival. You don't know for instance whether the basket was hermetically sealed as you were not there when they were preparing it for use in the festival. Your account still amounts to another dem say tale.
That notwithstanding there is satanic power upon which juju or voodoo is based.

tensor777:

My point remains that you as a person that has no faith whatsoever has no locus standi to question another person's faith. It would make no sense for a person of faith to join issues with you over his faith or even the very basis for his faith as you would not understand. Its not something that can be comprehended by pure reason.
This is shown in your reply to Timmi where instead of stating your own views on for instance how the universe was created, you simply resorted to lampooning his own views on that.

Tensor, your point is mute now. You continue to look silly when you try to argue without answering the most basic questions put to you. As far as timid point on how the universe was created, again why do you let your ignorance blind you? My views on how the universe was created is the same as anybody with a slice of intelligence.

Don't bother replying, you try to sound smart but my niece who is 10 would debating you into tears, but then again, you wouldn't answer any questions she posed to you right?

Yes I believe there is juju and please keep your overbearing attitude to yourself.  Why must everyone be wrong and you right, don’t impose your own conviction on others. Yes I believe 100% that there is “juju”, black magic or whatever name you wish to call it

Go and stick your scientific theory  where the sun don’t shine, I watched one of the “most brilliant minds” as they call him  – Stephen Hawking  explain how the world came to be and the whole 3 hours was at best ludicrous in my own opinion. In fact the whole frigging “higher intelligent thinking” documentary was filled with “I think” “lucky”.

tensor777:

I don't know how you can come up with such claims as you were simply a bystander at the satanic festival. You don't know for instance whether the basket was hermetically sealed as you were not there when they were preparing it for use in the festival. Your account still amounts to another dem say tale.
That notwithstanding there is satanic power upon which juju or voodoo is based.

You are no worse than the fools saying JUJU exist. If Satanic powers exist then so must Satan.
If satan exist then so must God
If God is all knowing, all powerful then he must have know what Satan was going to do, but God chose to create him anyway. Is that the action of a loving God??

So what does god do during this almighty wait for judgement day? if he is indeed all knowing then he must know who will be saved and who wont be, if that is the case why put up with this long wait and not declare judgement day now?

What did god do before he 'created' the universe? Did he just play with his angels?

The bible said First came Adam, I think SCIENCE has proved this to be incorrect.(that one is for you timid!!)