solite3:
I agree with you that our salvation is secure only when we continue to abide in Christ. Shallom

I am very pleased to hear that, my brother.

Grace be with your spirit.

Ihedinobi3:

I am very pleased to hear that, my brother.

Grace be with your spirit.

thanks bro

solite3:
If you took your time to read op, you wouldnt come to this erroneous conclusion.
People who the writer of hebrews were addressing were Jewish, professing Christians who doubted, the superiority of Christ and his all sufficient sacrifice. The sin that will make one harden to the point of Unrepentance is rejecting the counting the blood of Christ as unclean even after receiving the knowledge of the truth.

The sin unto death doesnt mean the sinner can not be forgiven, it only mean that the death consequence would not be reversed no matter the prayer.
People accused paul of preaching grace so that sin will continue but that is the opposite of what paul preached.
Any preacher that say people should continue in sin because grace has come is a false preacher.

These were christian jews(not just superficially professing) who knew the superiority of Jesus Christ over Moses already but faced persecution, so Paul had to go over again to strengthen them not to yield as that superiority of His covenant also meant greater penalty if violated. Heb 10:28-29. That was the whole purpose of Paul doing a comparison in the earlier chapters, just to show them the logic for a greater penalty if they succumbed to the temptation of apostasy, not because they didn't already know this superiority.

On the issue of sin unto death, let us establish two things.
First, there is clearly revealed in scripture, the fact that God may discipline his children with terminal sickness which would be irreversible just to help them make things right and be forgiven before they exit this world.

Second, that there is a sin of apostasy that a believer can commit which will make him lose eternal life in his spirit and be damned to condemnation irreversibly. (Heb 6:4-6, 10:26-27, 2Pet 2:3,13,20-22).

The next is to decide which was meant in 1Jn5:16. To do this, we may need to establish the context. In 1Jn 5:11-12, we see that eternal life is life in this context as well eternal death is death in v16 as also in 1Jn 3:14-15. Even Paul does same in Rom5:17, 6:15-16,21-23. Also, John had already spoken to them about such believers who sin unto death in 1Jn 2:19. Now here in 1Jn 5:16, he says do not pray for them because such are irredeemable, consistent with Heb 6:4-6,10:26-27

Finallydead:

These were christian jews(not just superficially professing) who knew the superiority of Jesus Christ over Moses already but faced persecution, so Paul had to go over again to strengthen them not to yield as that superiority of His covenant also meant greater penalty if violated. Heb 10:28-29. That was the whole purpose of Paul doing a comparison in the earlier chapters, just to show them the logic for a greater penalty if they succumbed to the temptation of apostasy, not because they didn't already know this superiority.

No doubt, they were christian jews buy among them were people who were not yet convinced about the gospel.

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

So not all were believers.

On the issue of sin unto death, let us establish two things.
First, there is clearly revealed in scripture, the fact that God may discipline his children with terminal sickness which would be irreversible just to help them make things right and be forgiven before they exit this world.

Second, that there is a sin of apostasy that a believer can commit which will make him lose eternal life in his spirit and be damned to condemnation irreversibly. (Heb 6:4-6, 10:26-27, 2Pet 2:3,13,20-22).

The next is to decide which was meant in 1Jn5:16. To do this, we may need to establish the context. In 1Jn 5:11-12, we see that eternal life is life in this context as well eternal death is death in v16 as also in 1Jn 3:14-15. Even Paul does same in Rom5:17, 6:15-16,21-23. Also, John had already spoken to them about such believers who sin unto death in 1Jn 2:19. Now here in 1Jn 5:16, he says do not pray for them because such are irredeemable, consistent with Heb 6:4-6,10:26-27

@ boled the sin of apostasy is rejecting the finished work of Christ on the cross as all sufficient for a man's justification. Such sin can only be commited by a person who is yet to come to the saving faith of Jesus.

Hebrews 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

The sin of apostasy can only be commited by an unsaved man.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Anyone who abandons the Christian faith was not really a christian from the start, this is what John and other apostles taught and what Jesus himself taught. Jesus said my sheep knows me and they hears me. Anyone that wouldnt hear Jesus is not his sheep, there is nothing like a sheep that wouldnt hear Jesus.

Apostle John never said a saved person can commit the sin unto death but instead in

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Anyone who is born of God cannot continue to commit sin simply because he is born of God. That professing Christian who is living a life of sin is definitely not a christian.

So the issue of a Christian losing his salvation because of sin has totally been cancelled by John.

solite3:
No doubt, they were christian jews buy among them were people who were not yet convinced about the gospel.

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

So not all were believers.




@ boled the sin of apostasy is rejecting the finished work of Christ on the cross as all sufficient for a man's justification. Such sin can only be commited by a person who is yet to come to the saving faith of Jesus.

Hebrews 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

The sin of apostasy can only be commited by an unsaved man.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Anyone who abandons the Christian faith was not really a christian from the start, this is what John and other apostles taught and what Jesus himself taught. Jesus said my sheep knows me and they hears me. Anyone that wouldnt hear Jesus is not his sheep, there is nothing like a sheep that wouldnt hear Jesus.

Apostle John never said a saved person can commit the sin unto death but instead in

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Anyone who is born of God cannot continue to commit sin simply because he is born of God. That professing Christian who is living a life of sin is definitely not a christian.

So the issue of a Christian losing his salvation because of sin has totally been cancelled by John.

I don't think you are completely right here (and I understood your last response to me here to suggest that you had understood this matter in the same light as I had presented it, so now I'm not entirely sure that you had).

To begin, you are right, of course, that sin is not going to cost us our salvation. John does not teach that at all. However, your quote of Hebrews 10:29 is clear that that there is a punishment for anyone who although having already been sanctified by the blood of the Lord Jesus still turns around to seek something to add to the Blood of Jesus Christ to be saved. That is apostasy. It is a real danger to believers or else Paul would not have been warning the Jewish Christians of his day of it.

1 John 2:19 does not teach that no one who is saved can never give up their Faith again. It teaches that if anyone remains in the Faith, they would not leave the community of believers, but if they throw their faith away, then of course they would leave. If John were teaching that it is impossible for a true believer to apostatize, he wouldn't warn the believers that he was writing to avoid apostasy:

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father...28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
(KJV) 1 John 2:24,28

As long as you are willing to discuss this Scripturally and work steadily through it, I will be happy to continue to offer my help, but if you really continue to hold on to this idea that the believer cannot fall away, I really cannot continue to fellowship with you. That would put other believers who may be listening to me at risk (not that I know that anyone here is, but if they are, I must protect them by obeying the Scriptures in this).

Ihedinobi3:

I don't think you are completely right here (and I understood your last response to me here to suggest that you had understood this matter in the same light as I had presented it, so now I'm not entirely sure that you had).

To begin, you are right, of course, that sin is not going to cost us our salvation. John does not teach that at all. However, your quote of Hebrews 10:29 is clear that that there is a punishment for anyone who although having already been sanctified by the blood of the Lord Jesus still turns around to seek something to add to the Blood of Jesus Christ to be saved. That is apostasy. It is a real danger to believers or else Paul would not have been warning the Jewish Christians of his day of it.

what would make anyone reject the blood of Jesus if not unbelief. It seems as if hebrews was saying they were truly sanctified by the blood, yes in the sight of humans they were sanctified by the blood because they were in the comunity of the believers and were probably baptised and had experience the christian fellowship and had partake through the gospel of heavenly things but the fact that they rejected christ meant they were never of him.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Did you see that the writer differentiated those that backslide from those that believe.
Those that believe are not those that backslide.

1 John 2:19 does not teach that no one who is saved can never give up their Faith again. It teaches that if anyone remains in the Faith, they would not leave the community of believers, but if they throw their faith away, then of course they would leave. If John were teaching that it is impossible for a true believer to apostatize, he wouldn't warn the believers that he was writing to avoid apostasy:

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father...28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
(KJV) 1 John 2:24,28

As long as you are willing to discuss this Scripturally and work steadily through it, I will be happy to continue to offer my help, but if you really continue to hold on to this idea that the believer cannot fall away, I really cannot continue to fellowship with you. That would put other believers who may be listening to me at risk (not that I know that anyone here is, but if they are, I must protect them by obeying the Scriptures in this).

1 John 2vv19 certainly teaches that those that backslided were never true christians.

I John 2vv24, and other verses of the bible certainly contains warning to those who think they are saved but continue in sin, or had no root in Christ to know they are in danger. The christian community is one of mixed multitude.
Some are born into the christian community, some are in the christian community because of miracles and signs, some are there to take advantages,some are outright false brethrens who are sent to spy and cause disunity and derail the church. The letters of the apostles had to be written in such a way as to enlighten all believers concerning their actions and if possible to save some and at the same time building the church up in Christ.
The command that every christian to abide in christ is neccesary for believers to remain settled and grounded in him, by so doing they prove that they are truly saved.

solite3:

[s]@ boled the sin of apostasy is rejecting the finished work of Christ on the cross as all sufficient for a man's justification. Such sin can only be commited by a person who is yet to come to the saving faith of Jesus.

The sin of apostasy can only be commited by an unsaved man.

Anyone who abandons the Christian faith was not really a christian from the start, this is what John and other apostles taught and what Jesus himself taught. Jesus said my sheep knows me and they hears me. Anyone that wouldnt hear Jesus is not his sheep, there is nothing like a sheep that wouldnt hear Jesus.
That professing Christian who is living a life of sin is definitely not a christian.

So the issue of a Christian losing his salvation because of sin has totally been cancelled by John.
[/s]

ALL WRONG.

Giving you the benefit of doubt that you aren't one of those who are not open-minded and objective enough to change preconceived notions, but that you are only in this exchange to both teach and learn, I'll give you a head start on this but you still need to do further research on the subject of apostasy.
First off, the word apostasy is not actually an English word but actually derived from a greek word 'apostasia' which only means to denounce an INITIALLY held faith or belief (not just to disbelieve or reject a faith) and is the word used by Paul in informing about the precedents to the coming of the Lord in 2Thes 2:3...except there comes a falling away (apostasia in greek) first.... In Christian doctrine, not only is it possible for a GENUINELY converted believer (2Pet 2:1,20-22) to turn away( Heb 6:4-6,10:26, 1Cor 15:2, Col 1:23)but we are in fact awaiting a MAJOR apostasy(many believers) before the Lord comes as Paul says in 2Thes 2 and also prophesied by the Lord (Mt 24:10-13, note that offended actually is translated from a greek word which means to stumble or fall into deceit) and God Himself said (Heb 10:38, if it was impossible, God wouldn't say "if" ) and as a matter of fact a teaching like yours here is why many will, making them lose guard and become careless not building up their faith for the evil day, which is why I will advise you cease to teach such or else bring the blood of many on your head(Mt 5:19, Jam3:1). The whole book of Hebrews was written only because of this possibility else it was useless to write the book since they couldn't have fallen as well as every other warning in scripture to believers to this effect. So please study this subject in scripture again in the meekness of Christ and stop teaching this.
May the Lord give you understanding.

Finallydead:

ALL WRONG.

Giving you the benefit of doubt that you aren't one of those who are not open-minded and objective enough to change preconceived notions, but that you are only in this exchange to both teach and learn, I'll give you a head start on this but you still need to do further research on the subject of apostasy.
First off, the word apostasy is not actually an English word but actually derived from a greek word 'apostasia' which only means to denounce an INITIALLY held faith or belief (not just to disbelieve or reject a faith) and is the word used by Paul in informing about the precedents to the coming of the Lord in 2Thes 2:3...except there comes a falling away (apostasia in greek) first.... In Christian doctrine, not only is it possible for a GENUINELY converted believer (2Pet 2:1,20-22) to turn away( Heb 6:4-6,10:26, 1Cor 15:2, Col 1:23)but we are in fact awaiting a MAJOR apostasy(many believers) before the Lord comes as Paul says in 2Thes 2 and also prophesied by the Lord (Mt 24:10-13, note that offended actually is translated from a greek word which means to stumble or fall into deceit) and God Himself said (Heb 10:38, if it was impossible, God wouldn't say "if" ) and as a matter of fact a teaching like yours here is why many will, making them lose guard and become careless not building up their faith for the evil day, which is why I will advise you cease to teach such or else bring the blood of many on your head(Mt 5:19, Jam3:1). The whole book of Hebrews was written only because of this possibility else it was useless to write the book since they couldn't have fallen as well as every other warning in scripture to believers to this effect. So please study this subject in scripture again in the meekness of Christ and stop teaching this.
May the Lord give you understanding.

That your signature is cool o.
Big bang 2 A. K. A. redemption by Christ.

solite3:
what would make anyone reject the blood of Jesus if not unbelief. It seems as if hebrews was saying they were truly sanctified by the blood, yes in the sight of humans they were sanctified by the blood because they were in the comunity of the believers and were probably baptised and had experience the christian fellowship and had partake through the gospel of heavenly things but the fact that they rejected christ meant they were never of him.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Did you see that the writer differentiated those that backslide from those that believe.
Those that believe are not those that backslide.


1 John 2vv19 certainly teaches that those that backslided were never true christians.

I John 2vv24, and other verses of the bible certainly contains warning to those who think they are saved but continue in sin, or had no root in Christ to know they are in danger. The christian community is one of mixed multitude.
Some are born into the christian community, some are in the christian community because of miracles and signs, some are there to take advantages,some are outright false brethrens who are sent to spy and cause disunity and derail the church. The letters of the apostles had to be written in such a way as to enlighten all believers concerning their actions and if possible to save some and at the same time building the church up in Christ.
The command that every christian to abide in christ is neccesary for believers to remain settled and grounded in him, by so doing they prove that they are truly saved.

I am happy for your response, because it gives me hope of continued fellowship with you.

1. I think that I can try to appreciate your difficulty with these passages, but I find that I cannot sympathize with your departure from what they actually say. As you yourself said, Hebrews IS saying that the believers in question were sanctified by the Blood of Jesus Christ. It does not SEEM to say it. Here is the quote again:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
(KJV) Hebrews 10:29

You actually have to ignore this verse entirely in order to say that the believer spoken of here was not said to be sanctified. It is clearly what Paul said.

Your explanation for what that sanctification meant is partly why we had a conversation about water baptism etc. In that conversation, you agreed (if memory serves me right), that water baptism is not how we are saved, even though you insisted that it was still necessary. I let it go, because I felt that as long as you kept in mind that only faith in Jesus Christ saves us, you would come around to the Truth on your own. But here you have explained the Scripture to mean that this person was baptized in water and attended the gatherings of believers and that made him sanctified. This is a very costly mistake to make in interpreting the Bible. You have just claimed that to be sanctified by the Blood, we must be baptized and attend church, but also that this does not really make a person belong to the Lord Jesus Christ. You also speak of partaking of the Gospel, but my understanding of that contradicts what you say, so I don't understand what you meant to say with that. Do you know just how many Scriptures you have broken with this statement?

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. . .18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(KJV) John 3:16,18

Nothing about water baptism or "[being] in the community of believers and [having] experience of the Christian fellowship" in the above. We are sanctified (that is, set apart to God from among sinners) by the Blood of Jesus Christ through Faith in Him. That is what the Scriptures teach. There is no scriptural basis for this interpretation that you have made here.

Who is "of Christ?" The Bible says that it is anyone who has the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9). How do we have the Spirit of Christ? By believing in the Lord Jesus (1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 1:13). Therefore, if anyone is said to be sanctified by the Blood of Jesus Christ, then they have the Spirit of Jesus Christ, and are therefore "of Him."

When you speak of partaking of the Gospel of Heavenly things, like I said, it seems to me that you mean something different from what I see in the Bible. I don't find the phrase itself in the Bible, but to partake means to take part in something, and the Gospel is the Truth about Jesus Christ. So, to take part in it is to believe in it. You may mean something different, but if you do, it has nothing to do with what I can see in the Bible. As I have said in the foregoing, believing the Gospel is the same as being saved or sanctified by the Blood of Jesus Christ and being "of Him." So, there again, you are quite wrong.

2. Regarding Hebrews 10:39, it is exactly the same as what I said to you and ichuka. Paul was expressing confidence that those who were listening to him by reading that letter were like him: believers committed to holding on to their Faith until the end. If they were of the sort to give it up, then they wouldn't be bothering with what he was telling them. As I said, it is why those of us who serve the Church with the Truth make a difference between the people that we minister to. Some people listen and are saved and grow spiritually, some don't. If you, for example, are continuing to discuss this matter with me, to my mind, that means that I can be persuaded of better things of you than I have warned you about. Those who continue to engage with the Truth especially when they are being corrected by it are the kind who do not turn back into perdition. Nothing in what Paul says here means at all that the believer cannot fall away. If it did, that would break other Scriptures including the following:

18 “Hear then the parable of the sower: . . . 20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
(ESV) Matthew 13:18,20-21

If the Lord spoke the Truth, then Paul could not also be saying that believers cannot turn back into perdition, not unless we want to dismiss that part of the Bible as Scripture, and if we did, we would have to dismiss many other Scriptures that sound just like that (see 1 John 2:13,27, for example). As long as we hold on to our Faith, we will not "backslide," and how we respond to the things that enable us to do so can give those who minister to us confidence or concern about our likely future choices.

3. 1 John 2:19 says,

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
(KJV) 1 John 2:19

I see no place where it says that those who left were never true Christians. It does say that their going out proved that they were no longer part of the Body of Christ. In fact, John says unequivocally that proof that anyone is still of the Body of Christ is that they "continue" to be of the Body of Christ. This fits well with his admonition to those to whom he was writing in 1 John 2:28. If we cease to continue in the Faith, then we cease to be believers. Can this happen? Matthew 13:20-21 is abundantly clear that it can. That is why John warns those who had not gone out yet that they should be careful not to go out, because no one will be saved simply because they once believed, if they stopped believing somewhere along the way.

4. This is 1 John 2:24 says:

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
(KJV) 1 John 2:24

There is nothing in there about sin, only something about continuing to hold on to the Gospel we heard when we first believed. That is the only way to stay saved, not by avoiding sin, although, as I have said before, it is a very bad idea to continue to sin without confession to the Lord after we are saved. As for having root in Christ, it is clear from here and everywhere else in the Bible that this is about holding on to the Gospel no matter what. If our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is weak and of a transient, conditional sort, then we will fall away. If it is of the unconditional sort, then we will not fall away until the end. That's it. That is what 1 John 2:24 and other Scriptures like it teach. Compare

12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
(KJV) 1 Timothy 6:12

7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith...
(KJV) 2 Timothy 4:7

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
(KJV) 1 John 5:4-5

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
(KJV) Matthew 24:13

All of these Scriptures teach that we are in a real fight where our faith is the bone of contention, so to speak. If we keep it until the end, we will be saved. If we don't, we will not be. So, no one ought to rest on their laurels or act like they are never in any danger of losing their faith.

There is a way of reducing risk of losing our faith. As long as we are growing spiritually, we grow increasingly immune to the attacks on our Faith. We will never become completely invulnerable, but we can become so hard to deceive or blackmail into giving up our Faith that we seem to become invulnerable:

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
(KJV) Ephesians 4:11-16

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
(KJV) Philippians 3:12-14

That is, if we are pressing forward spiritually, then we certainly are in far less danger of backsliding than if we are not. Aggressively pursuing spiritual growth, which is the same as aggressively working to learn everything that the Bible has to teach us using the help of gifted and prepared Bible teachers whom we have tested and proved through comparing what they teach with the Bible, is the only way to limit the risk of apostasy right down to zero. If we are pressing forward, then we are not sliding back or shuffling sideways in a way that makes us vulnerable to being knocked back by the devil's deceit. There is no other way to limit the risk.

5. As for the Christian community being a mixed multitude, that has always been the case. Even the Twelve were a mixed multitude until Judas showed that he really was not one of them. That is neither here nor there. Just as some people stopped following the Lord Jesus in John 6 despite having done so for a while, we can also stop following the Lord after a while even though we once truly believed in Him.

I agree also with the existence of different motives for people's participation in the gathering of believers. Today, more than at any other time in history, people are identifying as Christians especially because they associate the Gospel with wealth, health, and prosperity. If any of them truly believe, whenever they suffer difficulty, their faith is likely to come under pressure that it may not be able to handle because they failed to properly appreciate the Message in the Gospel. That does not mean that they were never believers. It just means that they apostatized when they could have avoided doing so by seeking out a gifted and prepared Bible teacher to teach them the whole Truth that they have come into so that they can protect themselves from the lies that seduce us into apostasy.

To be clear, there is only one difference of note between believers: some are zealously pursuing knowledge of biblical truth to please their Lord, others are not. Those who are not remain at risk of falling away from the faith. Those who are are building themselves up in their most holy Faith and being victorious and stacking eternal reward for themselves.

CodeTemplar:


That your signature is cool o.
Big bang 2 A. K. A. redemption by Christ.

Bless you bro.

Ihedinobi3:

I am happy for your response, because it gives me hope of continued fellowship with you.

1. I think that I can try to appreciate your difficulty with these passages, but I find that I cannot sympathize with your departure from what they actually say. As you yourself said, Hebrews IS saying that the believers in question were sanctified by the Blood of Jesus Christ. It does not SEEM to say it. Here is the quote again:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
(KJV) Hebrews 10:29

You actually have to ignore this verse entirely in order to say that the believer spoken of here was not said to be sanctified. It is clearly what Paul said.

Your explanation for what that sanctification meant is partly why we had a conversation about water baptism etc. In that conversation, you agreed (if memory serves me right), that water baptism is not how we are saved, even though you insisted that it was still necessary. I let it go, because I felt that as long as you kept in mind that only faith in Jesus Christ saves us, you would come around to the Truth on your own. But here you have explained the Scripture to mean that this person was baptized in water and attended the gatherings of believers and that made him sanctified. This is a very costly mistake to make in interpreting the Bible. You have just claimed that to be sanctified by the Blood, we must be baptized and attend church, but also that this does not really make a person belong to the Lord Jesus Christ. You also speak of partaking of the Gospel, but my understanding of that contradicts what you say, so I don't understand what you meant to say with that. Do you know just how many Scriptures you have broken with this statement?

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. . .18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(KJV) John 3:16,18

Nothing about water baptism or "[being] in the community of believers and [having] experience of the Christian fellowship" in the above. We are sanctified (that is, set apart to God from among sinners) by the Blood of Jesus Christ through Faith in Him. That is what the Scriptures teach. There is no scriptural basis for this interpretation that you have made here.

Who is "of Christ?" The Bible says that it is anyone who has the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9). How do we have the Spirit of Christ? By believing in the Lord Jesus (1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 1:13). Therefore, if anyone is said to be sanctified by the Blood of Jesus Christ, then they have the Spirit of Jesus Christ, and are therefore "of Him."

When you speak of partaking of the Gospel of Heavenly things, like I said, it seems to me that you mean something different from what I see in the Bible. I don't find the phrase itself in the Bible, but to partake means to take part in something, and the Gospel is the Truth about Jesus Christ. So, to take part in it is to believe in it. You may mean something different, but if you do, it has nothing to do with what I can see in the Bible. As I have said in the foregoing, believing the Gospel is the same as being saved or sanctified by the Blood of Jesus Christ and being "of Him." So, there again, you are quite wrong.

I hope this might help,

'Sanctified' is one of those words that you need to let the context dictate it's usage. The word literally means 'set apart' and it can apply (and often does) to true believers... but can also apply to objects, places and even people that aren't saved! Look at the following examples of what is said to be sanctified in the Bible:

Nation of Israel (Exodus 19:10)
Mount Sinai (Exodus 19:23)
Breast of the Ram (Exodus 29:27)
The Priests (Exodus 29:41)
The Tabernacle (Exodus 29:36)

In the New Testament we have the interesting verse in 1 Cor 7:14

"For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy."

I can only take from this that where a believer is married to an unbeliever God sees the unbelieving partner (and any children) as 'set apart' or 'sanctified' because of the faith of their partner. Does this mean that the unbeliever is saved? No. But they are said to be sanctified or set apart. I think it would be fair to say that Judas was also 'set apart' as one of the 12 disciples to do the Lord's work, but not saved.

So Heb 10:29 is speaking of those that joined themselves to true believers in the church and in this sense were 'sanctified' or set apart. But they willfully left that going back on their initial belief and decision and went back to Judaism. They are apostates.

Concerning Heb 10:29, the well loved Bible teacher H.A Ironside says the following:

“There is an expression used in these verses that may still perplex and bewilder those who have not apprehended that profession is one thing, and possession another. … He who is sanctified by the one offering of Christ upon the cross, that is, by His precious blood, is perfected forever (Heb. 10:10, 14-19). But in this passage it is equally plain that one who counts the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, shall be forever lost. In order not to miss the true force of this for our souls, it is necessary that we give some attention to what we have already designated ‘positional sanctification.’ Of old all the people of Israel, and all who were associated with them, were set apart to God both on the night of the Passover and afterwards in the wilderness. But this did not necessarily imply a work of the Spirit in their souls. Many were doubtless in the blood-sprinkled houses that solemn night, when the destroying angel passed through to smite the unsheltered first-born, who had no real faith in God. Yet they were by the blood of the Lamb put in a place of blessing, a position where they shared in many hallowed privileges. So afterward with those who were under the cloud and passed through the sea, being baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea. All were in the same position. All shared the same outward blessings. But the wilderness was the place of testing, and soon proved who were real and who were not. At the present time God has no special nation, to be allied to which is to come into a position of outward nearness to Him. But He has a people who have been redeemed to Himself out of all kindreds and tongues and peoples and nations, by the precious blood of the Lamb of God. All who ally themselves by profession with that company are outwardly among the blood-sheltered: in this sense they are sanctified by the blood of the covenant. That blood stands for Christianity, which in its very essence is the proclamation of salvation through Christ’s atoning death. To take the Christian place therefore is like entering the blood-sprinkled house. All who are real, who have judged themselves before God, and truely confided in his grace, will remain in that house. If they go out, it proves their unreality and such can find no other sacrifice for sins; for all the typical offerings are done away in Christ.

2. Regarding Hebrews 10:39, it is exactly the same as what I said to you and ichuka. Paul was expressing confidence that those who were listening to him by reading that letter were like him: believers committed to holding on to their Faith until the end. If they were of the sort to give it up, then they wouldn't be bothering with what he was telling them. As I said, it is why those of us who serve the Church with the Truth make a difference between the people that we minister to. Some people listen and are saved and grow spiritually, some don't. If you, for example, are continuing to discuss this matter with me, to my mind, that means that I can be persuaded of better things of you than I have warned you about. Those who continue to engage with the Truth especially when they are being corrected by it are the kind who do not turn back into perdition. Nothing in what Paul says here means at all that the believer cannot fall away. If it did, that would break other Scriptures including the following:

18 “Hear then the parable of the sower: . . . 20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
(ESV) Matthew 13:18,20-21

If the Lord spoke the Truth, then Paul could not also be saying that believers cannot turn back into perdition, not unless we want to dismiss that part of the Bible as Scripture, and if we did, we would have to dismiss many other Scriptures that sound just like that (see 1 John 2:13,27, for example). As long as we hold on to our Faith, we will not "backslide," and how we respond to the things that enable us to do so can give those who minister to us confidence or concern about our likely future choices.

I think I have addessed this issue before, preservation leads to perseverance. Our holding on to our faith ti the end proves that we were really saved. Those who would not persevere till the end where never of christ.

3. 1 John 2:19 says,

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
(KJV) 1 John 2:19

I see no place where it says that those who left were never true Christians. It does say that their going out proved that they were no longer part of the Body of Christ. In fact, John says unequivocally that proof that anyone is still of the Body of Christ is that they "continue" to be of the Body of Christ. This fits well with his admonition to those to whom he was writing in 1 John 2:28. If we cease to continue in the Faith, then we cease to be believers. Can this happen? Matthew 13:20-21 is abundantly clear that it can. That is why John warns those who had not gone out yet that they should be careful not to go out, because no one will be saved simply because they once believed, if they stopped believing somewhere along the way.

common, that is not what John is saying, John said the apostate left because they were not part them, if the apostate were true christians they would not have left.

4. This is 1 John 2:24 says:

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
(KJV) 1 John 2:24

There is nothing in there about sin, only something about continuing to hold on to the Gospel we heard when we first believed. That is the only way to stay saved, not by avoiding sin, although, as I have said before, it is a very bad idea to continue to sin without confession to the Lord after we are saved. As for having root in Christ, it is clear from here and everywhere else in the Bible that this is about holding on to the Gospel no matter what. If our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is weak and of a transient, conditional sort, then we will fall away. If it is of the unconditional sort, then we will not fall away until the end. That's it. That is what 1 John 2:24 and other Scriptures like it teach. Compare

12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
(KJV) 1 Timothy 6:12

7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith...
(KJV) 2 Timothy 4:7

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
(KJV) 1 John 5:4-5

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
(KJV) Matthew 24:13

All of these Scriptures teach that we are in a real fight where our faith is the bone of contention, so to speak. If we keep it until the end, we will be saved. If we don't, we will not be. So, no one ought to rest on their laurels or act like they are never in any danger of losing their faith.

There is a way of reducing risk of losing our faith. As long as we are growing spiritually, we grow increasingly immune to the attacks on our Faith. We will never become completely invulnerable, but we can become so hard to deceive or blackmail into giving up our Faith that we seem to become invulnerable:

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
(KJV) Ephesians 4:11-16

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
(KJV) Philippians 3:12-14

That is, if we are pressing forward spiritually, then we certainly are in far less danger of backsliding than if we are not. Aggressively pursuing spiritual growth, which is the same as aggressively working to learn everything that the Bible has to teach us using the help of gifted and prepared Bible teachers whom we have tested and proved through comparing what they teach with the Bible, is the only way to limit the risk of apostasy right down to zero. If we are pressing forward, then we are not sliding back or shuffling sideways in a way that makes us vulnerable to being knocked back by the devil's deceit. There is no other way to limit the risk.

5. As for the Christian community being a mixed multitude, that has always been the case. Even the Twelve were a mixed multitude until Judas showed that he really was not one of them. That is neither here nor there. Just as some people stopped following the Lord Jesus in John 6 despite having done so for a while, we can also stop following the Lord after a while even though we once truly believed in Him.

I agree also with the existence of different motives for people's participation in the gathering of believers. Today, more than at any other time in history, people are identifying as Christians especially because they associate the Gospel with wealth, health, and prosperity. If any of them truly believe, whenever they suffer difficulty, their faith is likely to come under pressure that it may not be able to handle because they failed to properly appreciate the Message in the Gospel. That does not mean that they were never believers. It just means that they apostatized when they could have avoided doing so by seeking out a gifted and prepared Bible teacher to teach them the whole Truth that they have come into so that they can protect themselves from the lies that seduce us into apostasy.

To be clear, there is only one difference of note between believers: some are zealously pursuing knowledge of biblical truth to please their Lord, others are not. Those who are not remain at risk of falling away from the faith. Those who are are building themselves up in their most holy Faith and being victorious and stacking eternal reward for themselves.

if you mean a believer is anyone who simply identify as a christian. Then yes such can fall away.
By the way John records that anyone who is born of God does not commit sin. Rejecting Jesus is the greatest sin and no one who is born of God can commit such.

solite3:


I hope this might help,

'Sanctified' is one of those words that you need to let the context dictate it's usage. The word literally means 'set apart' and it can apply (and often does) to true believers... but can also apply to objects, places and even people that aren't saved! Look at the following examples of what is said to be sanctified in the Bible:

Nation of Israel (Exodus 19:10)
Mount Sinai (Exodus 19:23)
Breast of the Ram (Exodus 29:27)
The Priests (Exodus 29:41)
The Tabernacle (Exodus 29:36)

In the New Testament we have the interesting verse in 1 Cor 7:14

"For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy."

I can only take from this that where a believer is married to an unbeliever God sees the unbelieving partner (and any children) as 'set apart' or 'sanctified' because of the faith of their partner. Does this mean that the unbeliever is saved? No. But they are said to be sanctified or set apart. I think it would be fair to say that Judas was also 'set apart' as one of the 12 disciples to do the Lord's work, but not saved.

So Heb 10:29 is speaking of those that joined themselves to true believers in the church and in this sense were 'sanctified' or set apart. But they willfully left that going back on their initial belief and decision and went back to Judaism. They are apostates.

Concerning Heb 10:29, the well loved Bible teacher H.A Ironside says the following:

“There is an expression used in these verses that may still perplex and bewilder those who have not apprehended that profession is one thing, and possession another. … He who is sanctified by the one offering of Christ upon the cross, that is, by His precious blood, is perfected forever (Heb. 10:10, 14-19). But in this passage it is equally plain that one who counts the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, shall be forever lost. In order not to miss the true force of this for our souls, it is necessary that we give some attention to what we have already designated ‘positional sanctification.’ Of old all the people of Israel, and all who were associated with them, were set apart to God both on the night of the Passover and afterwards in the wilderness. But this did not necessarily imply a work of the Spirit in their souls. Many were doubtless in the blood-sprinkled houses that solemn night, when the destroying angel passed through to smite the unsheltered first-born, who had no real faith in God. Yet they were by the blood of the Lamb put in a place of blessing, a position where they shared in many hallowed privileges. So afterward with those who were under the cloud and passed through the sea, being baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea. All were in the same position. All shared the same outward blessings. But the wilderness was the place of testing, and soon proved who were real and who were not. At the present time God has no special nation, to be allied to which is to come into a position of outward nearness to Him. But He has a people who have been redeemed to Himself out of all kindreds and tongues and peoples and nations, by the precious blood of the Lamb of God. All who ally themselves by profession with that company are outwardly among the blood-sheltered: in this sense they are sanctified by the blood of the covenant. That blood stands for Christianity, which in its very essence is the proclamation of salvation through Christ’s atoning death. To take the Christian place therefore is like entering the blood-sprinkled house. All who are real, who have judged themselves before God, and truely confided in his grace, will remain in that house. If they go out, it proves their unreality and such can find no other sacrifice for sins; for all the typical offerings are done away in Christ.


I think I have addessed this issue before, preservation leads to perseverance. Our holding on to our faith ti the end proves that we were really saved. Those who would not persevere till the end where never of christ.

common, that is not what John is saying, John said the apostate left because they were not part them, if the apostate were true christians they would not have left.






if you mean a believer is anyone who simply identify as a christian. Then yes such can fall away.
By the way John records that anyone who is born of God does not commit sin. Rejecting Jesus is the greatest sin and no one who is born of God can commit such.

I'll answer your arguments, solite3, but I am not sure that I will continue to after now. If this is a position that you have taken rather than one that you are investigating, then I have no intention to try to change your mind. We all have a right to believe what we want to believe, and even to teach whatever we want to teach. It is the Lord to Whom we must answer for how we exercise that right, not to each other. So, I am really not holding you to ransom about this. So, if we simply cannot agree about it, we must leave things as they are and act in accordance with our individual consciences.

1. The article that you shared essentially teaches that the Sanctification that we receive from the Blood of Jesus Christ does not necessarily save us from our sins. It may simply apply to us because we go to church. This flies in the face of everything in the Bible. To respond,

(i) Hebrews 10:29 does not refer to a marriage.

(ii) The Lord Jesus was clear that Judas was not a true member of the Twelve (John 6:70-71).

(iii) This is Hebrews 4:10-18

And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”
17 then he adds,
“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”
18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin
(ESV) Hebrews 10:10-18

The whole thrust of this passage is that the Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus was a "once-for-all-time" thing. That is why there is no other Sacrifice that we can look forward to if we either fail to avail ourselves of the Lord Jesus's Sacrifice or simply reject it.

(iv) Regarding Israel, the Bible says that they are beloved because of their fathers (Romans 11:28). This is the principle of "blessing by association" (see Genesis 12:3, for example). This is a different thing from the Sanctification of the Blood of Jesus Christ. Because a person is a physical descendant of Abraham, God treats them differently from the rest of the world, but how can this be called "sanctified by the Blood of Jesus Christ?" Romans 9-11 is clear that because of unbelief, many Jews by birth have been rejected by the Lord and are being replaced by believing Gentiles. This doesn't seem a parallel to what I see in Hebrews 10:29.

2. Regarding your second point, this is where we have been disagreeing. What I read in the Bible is that perseverance leads to preservation, not the other way around. If we continue to believe, we will be saved. Those who are saved at the end are those who continue to believe until the end. I see nothing else in the Bible:

13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
(ESV) Matthew 24:13

20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
(ESV) Matthew 13:20-21

3. I don't see where John said that they were never true Christians. It is clear, however, that he said that they would have continued with other believers if they believed at the point of leaving. That is to say that they only left because they didn't believe at the point of leaving.

4. John did teach that those who are believers are not "sinners by profession," in a manner of speaking, that is, such people's job description in this world is not to sin. When we come to believe, sin becomes an aberration in our lives, that is, it is not normal to us anymore in the sense that we may be expected to continue as we once did before we believed. That is why we have confession as a way to be made clean whenever we fall into sin again. In fact, this is also what John wrote:

8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. ​1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
(ESV) 1 John 1:8-2:1

This agrees with the following:

2 For we all stumble in many ways. And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body.
(ESV) James 3:2

So, the Scriptures do not teach that those who believe cannot sin any longer. We can and do continue to sin after we have believed, but it is no longer the normal way for us to be, so when we sin, we ought to confess and accept the Lord's forgiveness in order to have our fellowship with Him continued. But sin does nothing to our salvation except in so far as it damages our faith in the Lord (and it does oppose our faith in Him).

John, then, does not teach that we no longer have free will after we believe for the first time. In fact, all of chapter 2 warns us not to turn away from what we have believed just like the "antichrists" that John warned his charges about did. If we cannot turn away and stop abiding, then there was no point in warning us to continue to abide in the things we heard when we first believed and to remain in the Lord.

Ihedinobi3:

I'll answer your arguments, solite3, but I am not sure that I will continue to after now. If this is a position that you have taken rather than one that you are investigating, then I have no intention to try to change your mind. We all have a right to believe what we want to believe, and even to teach whatever we want to teach. It is the Lord to Whom we must answer for how we exercise that right, not to each other. So, I am really not holding you to ransom about this. So, if we simply cannot agree about it, we must leave things as they are and act in accordance with our individual consciences.

1. The article that you shared essentially teaches that the Sanctification that we receive from the Blood of Jesus Christ does not necessarily save us from our sins. It may simply apply to us because we go to church. This flies in the face of everything in the Bible. To respond,

(i) Hebrews 10:29 does not refer to a marriage.

(ii) The Lord Jesus was clear that Judas was not a true member of the Twelve (John 6:70-71).

(iii) This is Hebrews 4:10-18

And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”
17 then he adds,
“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”
18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin
(ESV) Hebrews 10:10-18

The whole thrust of this passage is that the Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus was a "once-for-all-time" thing. That is why there is no other Sacrifice that we can look forward to if we either fail to avail ourselves of the Lord Jesus's Sacrifice or simply reject it.

You should know that words should be understood according to context and not taking out of context.

Comparing heb 10v14 and hebrew 10v29

Hebrews 10:14, For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

You should note that sanctification simply means to be set apart.
Vs 14 says those that are sanctified are perfected forever while v 29 seems to say that one that is sanctified is not really perfect yet. To reconcile these seeming contradictions you need to understand the audience it is written to what message that verse is trying to conven


(iv) Regarding Israel, the Bible says that they are beloved because of their fathers (Romans 11:28). This is the principle of "blessing by association" (see Genesis 12:3, for example). This is a different thing from the Sanctification of the Blood of Jesus Christ. Because a person is a physical descendant of Abraham, God treats them differently from the rest of the world, but how can this be called "sanctified by the Blood of Jesus Christ?" Romans 9-11 is clear that because of unbelief, many Jews by birth have been rejected by the Lord and are being replaced by believing Gentiles. This doesn't seem a parallel to what I see in Hebrews 10:29.

2. Regarding your second point, this is where we have been disagreeing. What I read in the Bible is that perseverance leads to preservation, not the other way around. If we continue to believe, we will be saved. Those who are saved at the end are those who continue to believe until the end. I see nothing else in the Bible:

13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
(ESV) Matthew 24:13

20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
(ESV) Matthew 13:20-21

3. I don't see where John said that they were never true Christians. It is clear, however, that he said that they would have continued with other believers if they believed at the point of leaving. That is to say that they only left because they didn't believe at the point of leaving.

4. John did teach that those who are believers are not "sinners by profession," in a manner of speaking, that is, such people's job description in this world is not to sin. When we come to believe, sin becomes an aberration in our lives, that is, it is not normal to us anymore in the sense that we may be expected to continue as we once did before we believed. That is why we have confession as a way to be made clean whenever we fall into sin again. In fact, this is also what John wrote:

8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. ​1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
(ESV) 1 John 1:8-2:1

This agrees with the following:

2 For we all stumble in many ways. And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body.
(ESV) James 3:2

So, the Scriptures do not teach that those who believe cannot sin any longer. We can and do continue to sin after we have believed, but it is no longer the normal way for us to be, so when we sin, we ought to confess and accept the Lord's forgiveness in order to have our fellowship with Him continued. But sin does nothing to our salvation except in so far as it damages our faith in the Lord (and it does oppose our faith in Him).

John, then, does not teach that we no longer have free will after we believe for the first time. In fact, all of chapter 2 warns us not to turn away from what we have believed just like the "antichrists" that John warned his charges about did. If we cannot turn away and stop abiding, then there was no point in warning us to continue to abide in the things we heard when we first believed and to remain in the Lord.

Ok thanks brother, I agree that the only way a Christian can continue being saved is by remaining in the faith or abiding in Christ.

So it maybe possible that hebrew 10 v 29 might be truly speaking of a believer who was truly sanctified or not.

solite3:

Ok thanks brother, I agree that the only way a Christian can continue being saved is by remaining in the faith or abiding in Christ.

So it maybe possible that hebrew 10 v 29 might be truly speaking of a believer who was truly sanctified or not.

Good to hear bro. Some of these false convictions cost us more than we can imagine. Did you happen to research on the concept of apostasy?

There is no such thing as once saved, always saved. You can decide to be born again today and also decide to go back to the world. It's purely a personal choice. We are not robots. We are products of our decisions. As long as we live in this earthly body, you will be tempted to either continue in the faith or enjoy the pleasures of sin for a moment. It's all about choice and God will not infringe on your right to choose.

So those who preach the gospel of eternal security in salvation are liars. They only make references to scriptures which supports their preconceived opinions while ignoring others that teaches otherwise. I have so many scriptures to buttress my point but I won't waste my time cause they have made up their minds just like the Jehovah's Witnesses on what they chose to believe.

Finallydead:

Good to hear bro. Some of these false convictions cost us more than we can imagine. Did you happen to research on the concept of apostasy?

Apostasy is the falling from faith.
One can be in the fairh without being bornagain and such people fall away because they did not take root in Christ.
I still convinced that God preserves those he saved and those in saves remain in Christ.

Ken4Christ:
There is no such thing as once saved, always saved. You can decide to be born again today and also decide to go back to the world. It's purely a personal choice. We are not robots. We are products of our decisions. As long as we live in this earthly body, you will be tempted to either continue in the faith or enjoy the pleasures of sin for a moment. It's all about choice and God will not infringe on your right to choose.

So those who preach the gospel of eternal security in salvation are liars. They only make references to scriptures which supports their preconceived opinions while ignoring others that teaches otherwise. I have so many scriptures to buttress my point but I won't waste my time cause they have made up their minds just like the Jehovah's Witnesses on what they chose to believe.

that is the mistake @ bold being born again is not caused by human effort but by God'd intervention. You can only experience spiritual birth once and that is all.

Eternal security doesnt say you can go on sinning after being saved but rather when you are saved God keeps you and you continue in Christ.
Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and they follow him.
You said "we are not robots" yes we are not, ever since the fall humans wants to live apart from God.
Two things is involve its either we go on our ways and perish or we submit to God's way which is to believe on Jesus so that God will change us and give us eternal life.
A man who is going on is way can live with God forever hence has to repent( have a change of heart) and let God change him.

solite3:

Ok thanks brother, I agree that the only way a Christian can continue being saved is by remaining in the faith or abiding in Christ.

So it maybe possible that hebrew 10 v 29 might be truly speaking of a believer who was truly sanctified or not.

The following is not part of my post although it was included in it by your quote of my post:

"You should know that words should be understood according to context and not taking out of context.

Comparing heb 10v14 and hebrew 10v29

Hebrews 10:14, For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

You should note that sanctification simply means to be set apart.
Vs 14 says those that are sanctified are perfected forever while v 29 seems to say that one that is sanctified is not really perfect yet. To reconcile these seeming contradictions you need to understand the audience it is written to what message that verse is trying to conven"

As for your response, I don't think you and I agree on this at all or that you are convinced that the interpretation that I have offered is correct.

To be clear, please let me repeat that you are not obliged to agree with me. I don't demand that you do. You are perfectly free to believe whatever you are convinced is true and to teach it too. I am not denying you that right, and I am not holding you to ransom. The only issue here is that I am a pastor-teacher, and this subject is a very important one. This is a make-or-break issue in our Faith. So, I cannot afford to tolerate disagreement in it.

If you are persuaded that those who believe can never fall away again, then I cannot continue to fellowship with you, since doing so would put anyone who listens to me at risk.

I am not trying to get you to agree with me by saying that. I am simply trying to protect anyone that the Lord is pleased to entrust to my care. If this is a problem for you, then you must take the time to look at the Bible and try to see if it endorses my position or not. If you find that it does, then we can resume our fellowship with each other. If you don't, then you must proceed according to your conscience without any reference to me. Consider that ichuka has done exactly that.

So, again, I must notify you of my cessation of fellowship with you for the reason that I have stated above.

Ihedinobi3:

The following is not part of my post although it was included in it by your quote of my post:

"You should know that words should be understood according to context and not taking out of context.

Comparing heb 10v14 and hebrew 10v29

Hebrews 10:14, For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

You should note that sanctification simply means to be set apart.
Vs 14 says those that are sanctified are perfected forever while v 29 seems to say that one that is sanctified is not really perfect yet. To reconcile these seeming contradictions you need to understand the audience it is written to what message that verse is trying to conven"

As for your response, I don't think you and I agree on this at all or that you are convinced that the interpretation that I have offered is correct.

To be clear, please let me repeat that you are not obliged to agree with me. I don't demand that you do. You are perfectly free to believe whatever you are convinced is true and to teach it too. I am not denying you that right, and I am not holding you to ransom. The only issue here is that I am a pastor-teacher, and this subject is a very important one. This is a make-or-break issue in our Faith. So, I cannot afford to tolerate disagreement in it.

If you are persuaded that those who believe can never fall away again, then I cannot continue to fellowship with you, since doing so would put anyone who listens to me at risk.

I am not trying to get you to agree with me by saying that. I am simply trying to protect anyone that the Lord is pleased to entrust to my care. If this is a problem for you, then you must take the time to look at the Bible and try to see if it endorses my position or not. If you find that it does, then we can resume our fellowship with each other. If you don't, then you must proceed according to your conscience without any reference to me. Consider that ichuka has done exactly that.

So, again, I must notify you of my cessation of fellowship with you for the reason that I have stated above.

I have to edit all that out because I dont want to continue going round.
I believe in perseverance of the saints i.e abiding in Christ but only true believers will be able to abide in Christ till the end, this is the biblical stand.
Have a nice day

solite3:
Apostasy is the falling from faith.
One can be in the fairh without being bornagain and such people fall away because they did not take root in Christ.
I still convinced that God preserves those he saved and those in saves remain in Christ.

Alas!

solite3:
that is the mistake @ bold being born again is not caused by human effort but by God'd intervention. You can only experience spiritual birth once and that is all.

Eternal security doesnt say you can go on sinning after being saved but rather when you are saved God keeps you and you continue in Christ.
Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and they follow him.
You said "we are not robots" yes we are not, ever since the fall humans wants to live apart from God.
Two things is involve its either we go on our ways and perish or we submit to God's way which is to believe on Jesus so that God will change us and give us eternal life.
A man who is going on is way can live with God forever hence has to repent( have a change of heart) and let God change him.

So, if I receive eternal life from God and I fall into temptations like fornication and I am beginning to enjoy it. As such, I decide to stop going to church just to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a moment which might even last till I die, will I still make heaven?

If a Pastor filled with the Holy Ghost lives in sin, will he make heaven because he has received eternal life if he doesn't repent?

Don't tell me because you have received eternal life that you don't make mistakes. What do you do when you make mistakes? Do you just ignore them or ask for forgiveness?

Ken4Christ:


So, if I receive eternal life from God and I fall into temptations like fornication and I am beginning to enjoy it. As such, I decide to stop going to church just to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a moment which might even last till I die, will I still make heaven?

If you receive eternal life, it means you are now regenerated and CAN NO Longer enjoy living in sin, it does not mean a believer does not sin but that he is no longer a sinner who enjoy living in sin but that his desire/passion has now being turn towards righteousness because he has being regenerated (spiritual rebirth).

If a Pastor filled with the Holy Ghost lives in sin, will he make heaven because he has received eternal life if he doesn't repent?

A bornagain Christian cannot live in sin like unbelievers.

Don't tell me because you have received eternal life that you don't make mistakes. What do you do when you make mistakes? Do you just ignore them or ask for forgiveness?

every one makes mistakes but to continue to live in sin/enjoy sin means one is not actually saved.
Asking for forgiveness is so that God may cleanse you from unrighteousness so your relationship with God can be restored.

When a christian sins he experiences a broken relationship which might lead to hardship, it will be like a fish taken out of water, it won't take long for him to run back to God because nothing in this life or beyond could be compared to the love of God and the experience of his life.

if you receive eternal life you wont go on sinnning because you would have been regenerated.



1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Any one who continues to lead a life of sinful rebellion against God is not a child of God.
If you commit sin, you will suffer the repercussion of it such as loss of fellowship and wont be able to be a witness for Christ but you will experience the need to have a restoration of relationship with God.


Anybody who lives in sin, what he or she consider as enjoyment is sin does not know God/has not sin God.


1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

solite3:
If you receive eternal life, it means you are now regenerated and CAN NO Longer enjoy living in sin, it does not mean a believer does not sin but that he is no longer a sinner who enjoy living in sin but that his desire/passion has now being turn towards righteousness because he has being regenerated (spiritual rebirth).


A bornagain Christian cannot live in sin like unbelievers.

every one makes mistakes but to continue to live in sin/enjoy sin means one is not actually saved.
Asking for forgiveness is so that God may cleanse you from unrighteousness so your relationship with God can be restored.

When a christian sins he experiences a broken relationship which might lead to hardship, it will be like a fish taken out of water, it won't take long for him to run back to God because nothing in this life or beyond could be compared to the love of God and the experience of his life.

if you receive eternal life you wont go on sinnning because you would have been regenerated.



1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Any one who continues to lead a life of sinful rebellion against God is not a child of God.
If you commit sin, you will suffer the repercussion of it such as loss of fellowship and wont be able to be a witness for Christ but you will experience the need to have a restoration of relationship with God.


Anybody who lives in sin, what he or she consider as enjoyment is sin does not know God/has not sin God.


1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Then what happens, if a Christian sins and does not repent or run back to God before death takes him or her, will he or she still be saved? Please be very honest with your answer. Don't tell me a born again child cannot sin. Even you can not say you have reached a level where you don't sin or can't sin.

Ken4Christ:


Then what happens, if a Christian sins and does not repent or run back to God before death takes him or her, will he or she still be saved? Please be very honest with your answer. Don't tell me a born again child cannot sin. Even you can not say you have reached a level where you don't sin or can't sin.

Read first John very well come back again.
One of the test to know a born again Christian is that a bornagain christian does not continue in sin trying to invalidate this, means you are kicking aginst the word of God.
Those scenarios does not exist according to the bible.

solite3:
Read first John very well come back again.
One of the test to know a born again Christian is that a bornagain christian does not continue in sin trying to invalidate this, means you are kicking aginst the word of God.
Those scenarios does not exist according to the bible.

Why are you lying to your teeth? Are you telling me you no longer sin because you are born again? What about the news of even Holy Ghost filled Pastors caught in the very act. As long as you are in this physical body, you will still sin. The only difference is that you will not be comfortable in it and that forgiveness is available for you. But if you choose not to repent because of the pleasures of sin, you will go to hell and lose your salvation. So many Christians are in this category. They are living with the opposite sex they are not married to and even have children.

Ken4Christ:


Why are you lying to your teeth? Are you telling me you no longer sin because you are born again? What about the news of even Holy Ghost filled Pastors caught in the very act. As long as you are in this physical body, you will still sin.

where did I say that? Stop twisting my words, I said a bornagain christian can never continue in sin or lead a rebellious life against God continually. How do you know they were holy ghost filled?

The only difference is that you will not be comfortable in it and that forgiveness is available for you. But if you choose not to repent because of the pleasures of sin, you will go to hell and lose your salvation. So many Christians are in this category. They are living with the opposite sex they are not married to and even have children.

how do you know they are Christian? No bornagain Christian can go to hell you can take that to the bank, if someone who label his or herself is living a life of Sin (living a rebellious life against God) it means such is not born of God.

Here is the greek translation of 1 John 5vv 18

1492 [e]
18 Oidamen
18 Οἴδαμεν
18 We know
18 V-RIA-1P
3754 [e]
hoti
ὅτι
that
Conj
3956 [e]
pas
πᾶς
everyone
Adj-NMS
3588 [e]
ho
ὁ
-
Art-NMS
1080 [e]
gegennēmenos
γεγεννημένος
having been born
V-RPM/P-NMS
1537 [e]
ek
ἐκ
of
Prep
3588 [e]
tou
τοῦ
-
Art-GMS
2316 [e]
Theou
Θεοῦ
God
N-GMS
3756 [e]
ouch
οὐχ
not
Adv
264 [e]
hamartanei
ἁμαρτάνει ,
continues to sin
V-PIA-3S
235 [e]
all’
ἀλλ’
but
Conj
3588 [e]
ho
ὁ
[b]the [One]
Art-NMS
1080 [e]
gennētheis
γεννηθεὶς
having been begotten
V-APP-NMS
1537 [e]
ek
ἐκ
of
Prep
3588 [e]
tou
τοῦ
-
Art-GMS
2316 [e]
Theou
Θεοῦ
God
N-GMS
5083 [e]
tērei
τηρεῖ
protects
V-PIA-3S
846 [e]
auton
αὐτόν ,
him
PPro-AM3S
2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj
3588 [e]
ho
ὁ
the
Art-NMS
4190 [e]
ponēros
πονηρὸς
evil [one]
Adj-NMS
3756 [e]
ouch
οὐχ
not
Adv
680 [e]
haptetai
ἅπτεται
does touch
V-PIM-3S
846 [e]
autou
αὐτοῦ .
him
PPro-GM3S

It didnt say he that is born of God may not continue to sin but rather cannot (impossible) continue to sin. Dont force what you feel like into the bible let it speak for itself.

solite3:
where did I say that? Stop twisting my words, I said a bornagain christian can never continue in sin or lead a rebellious life against God continually. How do you know they were holy ghost filled?


how do you know they are Christian? No bornagain Christian can go to hell you can take that to the bank, if someone who label his or herself is living a life of Sin (living a rebellious life against God) it means such is not born of God.

Here is the greek translation of 1 John 5vv 18

1492 [e]
18 Oidamen
18 Οἴδαμεν
18 We know
18 V-RIA-1P
3754 [e]
hoti
ὅτι
that
Conj
3956 [e]
pas
πᾶς
everyone
Adj-NMS
3588 [e]
ho
ὁ
-
Art-NMS
1080 [e]
gegennēmenos
γεγεννημένος
having been born
V-RPM/P-NMS
1537 [e]
ek
ἐκ
of
Prep
3588 [e]
tou
τοῦ
-
Art-GMS
2316 [e]
Theou
Θεοῦ
God
N-GMS
3756 [e]
ouch
οὐχ
not
Adv
264 [e]
hamartanei
ἁμαρτάνει ,
continues to sin
V-PIA-3S
235 [e]
all’
ἀλλ’
but
Conj
3588 [e]
ho
ὁ
[b]the [One]
Art-NMS
1080 [e]
gennētheis
γεννηθεὶς
having been begotten
V-APP-NMS
1537 [e]
ek
ἐκ
of
Prep
3588 [e]
tou
τοῦ
-
Art-GMS
2316 [e]
Theou
Θεοῦ
God
N-GMS
5083 [e]
tērei
τηρεῖ
protects
V-PIA-3S
846 [e]
auton
αὐτόν ,
him
PPro-AM3S
2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj
3588 [e]
ho
ὁ
the
Art-NMS
4190 [e]
ponēros
πονηρὸς
evil [one]
Adj-NMS
3756 [e]
ouch
οὐχ
not
Adv
680 [e]
haptetai
ἅπτεται
does touch
V-PIM-3S
846 [e]
autou
αὐτοῦ .
him
PPro-GM3S

It didnt say he that is born of God may not continue to sin but rather cannot (impossible) continue to sin. Dont force what you feel like into the bible let it speak for itself.

When it says, he cannot sin, it refers to the inner man but the outward man can lead you to sin. Hence Apostle Paul says he puts the outward man, his body under control so he will not be disqualified.

I don't think you are fully into ministry. If you are, you won't talk this way. I have won hundreds of souls to Christ and some of which even get filled with the Holy Spirit. But not all of them continue in the faith.

Your walk with God is a personal decision. If you decide to turn back to the world, God cannot stop you. The choice is still yours.

Even Apostle Paul talked about how difficult it is to reconcile those who have tasted the heavenly gift and the power of the Holy Ghost back to faith.

Please read the entire New Testament Chapter by chapter and verse by verse and you will discover that only those who keep their faith till the end will be saved.

I could give you scores of scriptures but I have low battery. Please stop this demonic doctrine before you land yourself in the very pit of hell. False teachings is a very dangerous sin especially that which makes people ignore the consequences of their errors. This is what Jehovah's Witnesses are doing and yours is not quite different from theirs.

Jesus warned that not everyone that calls him Lord will enter the kingdom but those who do his will.

Apostles Paul warned that God will cut off those who draw back just the way the Jews who did not believe were cut off.

Jesus rebuked the Laodocean church for their lukewarmness and threatened to spue them out if they don't repent.

I am tired of this stupid doctrine that has no scriptural basis. Christ is coming back for only faithful Saints. And he has made provisions for our errors. But if you continue in error without repentance, you will not make heaven. God is not mocked. The ungodly and sinners will not stand in his presence. We have so many ungodly believers today and they must repent to make it. Where do you worship? Is it every one who has received Christ in your church that is service God faithfully. I am not sure if you are a committed believer. Otherwise you won't be talking this way.

Ihedinobi3:

Hello solite3.

This is actually not biblical. It is a popular falsehood today and a very strategic one given the fact that we are on the cusp of the Tribulation when a full third of the Church will fall away.

This is what I read in the Bible:

Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.
2 Timothy 2:11-13 NIV1984

[1]Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, [2]that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. [3]Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction...
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 NASB

The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy.
But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.
Matthew 13:20-21 NIV1984

Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:12-13 NIV1984

There is far more than all the above. To put it simply, believing the Gospel does not remove our free will. That is why we are kept on Earth afterwards: to be tested as to our choice to believe. If we endure our testing to the end, it proves that our choice is genuine and our Faith real. If we break under the testing and give up our faith, then we are no longer saved. That can and does happen. The Tribulation is designed by the Lord specifically for the purpose of testing the Laodicean Church and removing from it all those whose faith is ephemeral. A full third of the Church will fall away this way (Zechariah 13:8; Revelation 12:4; Daniel 8:10). Thinking that one can't lose their faith is the reason that many will do so in the tests of this life.

I think the problem is that the TARES are thoroughly mixed with the WHEAT in the church of Christ that it looks like we can't even trust the wheat to produce the fruit of its nature.

I don't think I have ever thought of the possibility of me loosing sonship from my earthly father (even though I am not perfect). The relationship I have with him compels me to live my life to honour and respect him. If you ask if I can loose my sonship to my earthly father, my answer will be an emphatic NO!

I think some of us Christians has such kind of relationship with our heavenly Father that when you ask us if we can loose our salvation, the answer is an emphatic NO!

I think part of the problem is that we have made "being born again" to be synonymous with "reciting the sinners prayer"! Unfortunately, this isn't true. No where did the bible teach that we are saved by or through prayers but by GRACE through FAITH!

Loosing ones salvation isn't a child's play because it is impossible after loosing one's salvation to get it back again. Except your argument is that salvation is lost only at the point of death.

1. Jesus compared those who are saved to Good Trees which produce good fruit in various degrees 20s, 40s, 60s..
2. There is also judgement of the saints according to their Faithfulness/Works of righteousness
3. Some Christians will even recieve eternal life as one who passed through fire (not a single reward)
4. Any Christians who is still comfortable with SIN is either not born again (even if he has recited the sinners prayers 100 times) OR a carnal Christian who is at a risk of chastisement and loss of reward and commendation from Christ.

Finally, salvation is a GIFT of FAVOUR! None of us would be able to boast of what we did to support the work of Christ.


If anyone is in Christ, such is a new Creation Old things have passed away and all things have become new

shadeyinka:

I think the problem is that the TARES are thoroughly mixed with the WHEAT in the church of Christ that it looks like we can't even trust the wheat to produce the fruit of its nature.

I don't think I have ever thought of the possibility of me loosing sonship from my earthly father (even though I am not perfect). The relationship I have with him compels me to live my life to honour and respect him. If you ask if I can loose my sonship to my earthly father, my answer will be an emphatic NO!

I think some of us Christians has such kind of relationship with our heavenly Father that when you ask us if we can loose our salvation, the answer is an emphatic NO!

I think part of the problem is that we have made "being born again" to be synonymous with "reciting the sinners prayer"! Unfortunately, this isn't true. No where did the bible teach that we are saved by or through prayers but by GRACE through FAITH!

Loosing ones salvation isn't a child's play because it is impossible after loosing one's salvation to get it back again. Except your argument is that salvation is lost only at the point of death.

1. Jesus compared those who are saved to Good Trees which produce good fruit in various degrees 20s, 40s, 60s..
2. There is also judgement of the saints according to their Faithfulness/Works of righteousness
3. Some Christians will even recieve eternal life as one who passed through fire (not a single reward)
4. Any Christians who is still comfortable with SIN is either not born again (even if he has recited the sinners prayers 100 times) OR a carnal Christian who is at a risk of chastisement and loss of reward and commendation from Christ.

Finally, salvation is a GIFT of FAVOUR! None of us would be able to boast of what we did to support the work of Christ.


If anyone is in Christ, such is a new Creation Old things have passed away and all things have become new

Hi shadeyinka.

More importantly, the Scriptures do say that Christians (that is, all those who believe in Jesus Christ, God Who became Man to die for our sins) can fall away. Failure to accept the Scriptures' witness of this is a deliberate exposure of oneself to spiritual vulnerability. It is a major reason why believers in this Laodicean Age are so careless about spiritual growth, progress, and production. It is also a major reason that the great apostasy of 2 Thessalonians 2 will actually occur. That is why I (and other pastor-teachers trained in the Truth) don't take it lightly. If anyone teaches it, I disassociate myself from them, so that their error will be limited to them and to those who deliberately choose to listen to them.

Ken4Christ:


Why are you lying to your teeth? Are you telling me you no longer sin because you are born again? What about the news of even Holy Ghost filled Pastors caught in the very act. As long as you are in this physical body, you will still sin. The only difference is that you will not be comfortable in it and that forgiveness is available for you. But if you choose not to repent because of the pleasures of sin, you will go to hell and lose your salvation. So many Christians are in this category. They are living with the opposite sex they are not married to and even have children.

2 Corinthians 4:3 for a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear.

The Bible talked about it, so bro don't be surprise to hear men preach this way. All we need to do is either correct them in love, or pray for them to embrace the truth.

Ihedinobi3:

Hi shadeyinka.

More importantly, the Scriptures do say that Christians (that is, all those who believe in Jesus Christ, God Who became Man to die for our sins) can fall away. Failure to accept the Scriptures' witness of this is a deliberate exposure of oneself to spiritual vulnerability. It is a major reason why believers in this Laodicean Age are so careless about spiritual growth, progress, and production. It is also a major reason that the great apostasy of 2 Thessalonians 2 will actually occur. That is why I (and other pastor-teachers trained in the Truth) don't take it lightly. If anyone teaches it, I disassociate myself from them, so that their error will be limited to them and to those who deliberately choose to listen to them.

Of course, Christians can fall away!
But any Christian who is banking on being saved after falling away is most likely never been made a new creature and the old self is their principal nature (probably they've learnt church language and mannerisms).

A "saved person" who is NOT a new creation in Christ Jesus should beware! They may never have been ever known by Christ Jesus in the first place!

Gold is gold anywhere: gold doesn't need to do anything to be gold. It is its nature to be previous/gold. Impure gold can still be purified (enter heaven as by fire). Lead may be painted with shining colour but it doesn't make it gold. It may look like 24karat gold, look bigger, look cleaner but it isn't gold.

Salvation is by Transformation into a NEW nature not old nature painted with a similitude of new nature.

This scripture help us see that the power of salvation even goes beyond any Christian to the foundation of the world (before anything was created).
Rom 8:29-30:
"For whom he did foreknow , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

There is a powerful combination of foreknowledge and predestination from God well before He made anything.

It simply means that God cannot by mistake include anyone's name in the book of life if he'll not make heaven.

Jesus concluded everything by saying: BY THEIR FRUIT ye shall know them!

Mat 24:24:
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so that,if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

Anyone who is comfortable with sin is most certainly NOT born again even if he came out for alter-call through Reinhard Bonke, Baba Adeboye and Baba Kumuyi altogether accompanied by the laying on of hands.

It is impossible to continue in SIN and expect GRACE (even of salvation) to abound/cover it. It's impossible!

francesawesome:
2 Corinthians 4:3 for a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear.

The Bible talked about it, so bro don't be surprise to hear men preach this way. All we need to do is either correct them in love, or pray for them to embrace the truth.

When the unregenerate person comes to the church, he comes out for an alter-call and begins to work in the church as a choir member, usher etc. And the rest of us measure his spirituality by his activities.

Unfortunately because he never was transformed in the first place, the sin nature is his natural state and he wants to enjoy the fame and publicity church association has given him at the same time find excuses and justification for sin and immoralities!

To such, we'll be surprised to hear Jesus say "I never knew you, you workers of iniquity!"
Iniquity means lawless!
Not under bound or control of Christ Jesus.

Good morning