ezeagu:

I actually gave a source with the names of Eri's grandson's some of who founded Igbo towns that exist today.

Oh, but it's not "unsupportable trash" because to you it "is held". Okay, it "is held" that Igbo is the oldest word for an ethnic group existing in Nigeria shown by the names of the sons of Eri.

Egharevba is an author from the 12th century? Everything you say from now on without a 'source' from that time is "unsupportable trash", okay?

You blatantly asserted that no other ethnic group of Nigerians has been using their current name for their ethnic group as long as Igbos. That cannot possibly be proven. I didn't contest or doubt the validity of any story about Eri; that's not relevant to my point.

Also, I didn't even say that "I held" that Benin acquired that name in the 12th/13th century, for the record. I said that "it's usually held." There are other theories out there, like the Beni-Nupe theory of the name (see Ryder, Thornton, etc.), so I keep an open mind and don't take the "Ile-Ibinu from Oranmiyan" story as gospel or dogma.

abadaba:

word

Quiet, you.

PhysicsRND:

You blatantly asserted that no other ethnic group of Nigerians has been using their current name for their ethnic group as long as Igbos. That cannot possibly be proven.

Are there any ethnic-groups with ancestors using their groups name as early as Eri did?

ezeagu:

Are there any ethnic-groups with ancestors using their groups name as early as Eri did?

Eri named his sons with the word Igbo (I thought Igbo just meant "person" or "man" in Igbo and that Ndigbo meant "the people," in Igbo?) in them, so he was making a conscience and concerted reference to a not fully extant ethnic group? That makes little sense to me.

That is the  mere mention of the word, not the use of it to designate an ethnic group.


An example of groups using the word for an ethnic group since time immemorial: Contrary to Egharevba, other,  more mythological Benin oral historians (not unlike those Igbo oral historians who claim Eri came down from the sky) actually believed that Edo was the cradle of creation ("Edo Ore Isi Agbon" by Osanobua and called the gods of the Benin people the Ebo n'Edo.

Apparently "Edo" has been around since creation. 

PhysicsRND:

Eri named his sons with the word Igbo (I thought Igbo just meant "person" or "man" in Igbo and that Ndigbo meant "the people," in Igbo?) in them, so he was making a conscience and concerted reference to a not fully extant ethnic group? That makes little sense to me.

That is the  mere mention of the word, not the use of it to designate an ethnic group.

One of Eri's grandsons was called (or started a town called) Amaigbo. 'Ama Igbo' means 'Igbo area/town/square'. He also had a grandson called Igbo Ora (or started a town called Igbo Ora). 'Igbo Ora' means 'Igbo public/population'. Eri, or those who named his grandsons, knew what they were doing when naming them. The 'Igbo' (or their ancestors) existed before Eri.

PhysicsRND:

An example of groups using the word for an ethnic group since time immemorial: Contrary to Egharevba, other,  more mythological Benin oral historians (not unlike those Igbo oral historians who claim Eri came down from the sky) actually believed that Edo was the cradle of creation ("Edo Ore Isi Agbon" by Osanobua. Also, the gods of Benin people have always been called the Ebo n'Edo.

Apparently "Edo" has been around since creation. 

The word Edo is not used like Eri's descendants used Igbo.

The word Edo is not used like Eri's descendants used Igbo.

How is gods of the Edo (Ebo n'Edo) not used the same way? Also, the name of the people is the same as the name of the land and in the case of Ebo n'Edo it's not referring to the land.

Anyway, the Edo (mythological leaning unscientific oral historians, that is) not only believe that their land was the first land, but that they were the first people:



"The Edo version is that, in the beginning, Osanobua (Oghene-Osa, Tu-SoS) decided to populate the world so He asked His four sons in Erinmwin (Heaven) to choose whatever gift of nature each fancied. The oldest chose wealth, the next in age chose wisdom, the third chose mysticism (spiritual energy) and as the youngest was about to announce his choice, Owonwon (the Toucan) cried out to him to settle for a snail shell. This did not make sense to him but he settled for it all the same. The brothers laughed at his silly choice but Osanobua said it was a wise choice. That when they get to the middle of the water where He was sending them, the youngest son should turn his snail shell facing the water.

There was no land only water every where and the four sons were in a canoe, sailing, drifting, propelled by the power of eziza (wind.) In the middle of the water stood a tree on top of which lived (Owonwon) the toucan. The importance of the emergence of the tree before man on earth is not lost on modern science, which recognizes that without the tree manufacturing oxygen, life on earth would have been impossible. Modern science has also confirmed the Edo cosmology that birds, insects etc, preceded man to earth. The Edo myth of creation was earth based in scope.

When the children got to the middle of the water, the youngest son turned his snail shell upside down resulting in an explosion from the bottom of the water that forced volumes and volumes of sand to gush out of the water and fill up space around them for as far as the eyes could see. With the explosion, the four elements of creation, amen (water) eziza (air) arhen (fire) and oto (sand or land) were in place. Land was every where but the kids did not know what it was. They were afraid to climb out of the canoe to step on the land, so they sent the Chameleon to test its firmness. That is why the Chameleon walks with hesitation.

The youngest son of Osanobua was the only spirit out of the four sons who could have the physical human body attribute on stepping on the land, because that was the advantage of the physical or material choice he made. It was put in his hand from heaven. The other sons were deities. The youngest son, the ruler of the earth, represents innocence and so is susceptible to the powers of the deities, his brothers. These same weak and strong, good and evil, physical and spiritual, influences form the basic elements of all modern religions, with man endowed with the power to make choices.

Junior wanted his older spirit brothers to remain with him on his land. The oldest brother chose to take his spirit gift and live in what was left of the water. The other two brothers accepted junior's invitation and deposited their spirit selves and gifts on the land as soon as they stepped on it from the canoe. Junior stepped on his land gingerly at first, then vigorously, stamping hard and repeatedly on it, running and rolling over it. He looked around and felt good and happy with his enormous gift. He called his land agbon (earth) and himself, Idu, meaning the first human on earth."




Later (the full story is too long to bother to post):


"As Osanobua was making to leave, Idu politely asked: “what if we have other problems and want to reach our creator quickly?” Osanobua said, “you can individually live for up to five hundred years, but you can come to me at will through your individual spirit self, ehi, whose double is permanently with me in heaven. All you would need to do is climb the Alubode hill and you are with ehi in heaven, who would bring you to me.”

As Osanobua left to his abode where the earth, water, and the sky meet, darkness was lifted from the earth.

Life was sweet and easy and before long, Idu and his wife, Eteghohi, were making babies. As the years rolled by, generations of extended Idu's family began to spread out in all directions, setting up communities, villages and towns. The different communities farthest from base spoke variations of Idu language and knew that they came from one common ancestor, Papa Idu, the ancestor of all mankind." - Naiwu Osahon


For another source:

http://books.google.com/books?ei=nCJfTeveHojAtgf9wOGGDA&ct=result&id=xl0uAQAAIAAJ&dq=idu+benin+osanobua&q=idu+#search_anchor

Can't access the whole book, but:

Page 11 ". . .the words used by Akka when he claimed the territory of Otoidu or Iduland for the descendants of Idu, the first Oduduwa, Oghene of Uhe. Akka was at the point of Idu's people's memorable departure from Uhe after the death of his father Idu."

Page 28 " The word uku is an old Idu word, meaning great. It was first used in Iduland for kuku, grandson of Idu. He had branched out of the Idu Party after the descent from the Uhe Plateau heights in the 7th century AD."

-   Osaren S.B. Omoregie (editor), International Society for Benin Studies , Great Benin: handbook on Ubiniology


So apparently before the 7th century AD, one Akka, son of Oduduwa (who was actually Idu), had coined the word Otoidu (Otoedo). 

Hmmm. The Edo earthworks just so happen to have started around the 7th-8th century.  How convenient.  Kind of like how Eri just so happens to have lived around 900AD and Igbo-Ukwu happens to have flourished at that time.  How convenient.

Mythological histories are interesting, but let's not get carried away.

PhysicsRND:

How is gods of the Edo (Ebo n'Edo) not used the same way?

You answered yourself in the next sentence.

PhysicsRND:

Hmmm. The Edo earthworks just so happen to have started around the 7th-8th century.  How convenient.  Kind of like how Eri just so happens to have lived around 900AD and Igbo-Ukwu happens to have flourished at that time.  How convenient.

If there were any leaded bronze artworks among the earth works then it would be very, convenient.

PhysicsRND:

Mythological histories are interesting, but let's not get carried away.

Yeah, but Eri is not mythological.

lol so he didn't descend from the sky?


Ok.

Suuuuuurrrre.

PhysicsRND:

lol so he didn't descend from the sky?


Ok. 

Suuuuuurrrre.

PhysicsRND:

So apparently before the 7th century AD, one Akka, son of Oduduwa (who was actually Idu), had coined the word Otoidu (Otoedo).

Uhh, didn't this guy come from the sky?

ezeagu:

Uhh, didn't this guy come from the sky?

Not according to Binis.

I was quoting Binis, so. . .

PhysicsRND:

Not according to Binis.

I was quoting Binis, so. . .

PhysicsRND:

The youngest son of Osanobua was the only spirit out of the four sons who could have the physical human body attribute on stepping on the land, because that was the advantage of the physical or material choice he made. It was put in his hand from heaven. The other sons were deities. The youngest son, the ruler of the earth, represents innocence and so is susceptible to the powers of the deities, his brothers. These same weak and strong, good and evil, physical and spiritual, influences form the basic elements of all modern religions, with man endowed with the power to make choices.

Junior wanted his older spirit brothers to remain with him on his land. The oldest brother chose to take his spirit gift and live in what was left of the water. The other two brothers accepted junior's invitation and deposited their spirit selves and gifts on the land as soon as they stepped on it from the canoe. Junior stepped on his land gingerly at first, then vigorously, stamping hard and repeatedly on it, running and rolling over it. He looked around and felt good and happy with his enormous gift. He called his land agbon (earth) and himself, Idu, meaning the first human on earth."

So he fell from water?

ezeagu:

So he fell from water?

I don't think you followed the story.


Osanobua (God) created/birthed Idu/Oduduwa.

Idu = Adam (more or less)

Nobody says Adam had to fall from the sky in Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.

Anyways, like I said, only the unscientific, mythology leaning types could believe stuff like that.

PhysicsRND:

I don't think you followed the story.


Osanobua (God) created/birthed Idu/Oduduwa.

Idu = Adam (more or less)

But Chukwu created/birthed Eri.  And the stories (mythology) are very similar.

PhysicsRND:

Anyways, like I said, only the unscientific, mythology leaning types could believe stuff like that.

Yeah, so back to the point: Eri is not mythological.

ezeagu:

Yeah, so back to the point: Eri is not mythological.

Lol, point is, the supposed ancestor of the Edo people is not mythical either if people say he's not.

The first guy (Osahon) took a mythical approach. The second guy didn't. I only posted the first guy's story to put the Idu/Oduduwa figure in context for the second story, which is not mythological and claims a specific date.

Idah (Igala)?


Nupe?


Nok? (whoever they were)


Old Calabar (Efik)?


Kwararafa Confederacy (Jukun)?



You haven't heard of any of these?


Also, I think you were ignoring another nation nearby the Yoruba "nation" (The Yoruba were not one unified ethnic "nation", not even under Oyo, until colonialism so the rest of your entire post is like the pot calling the kettle black, by the way).

Physics,

The indigenity of the cultures you mentioned is not in dispute, neither is their antiquity. In the context of the post that drew this response, I went bottom up to the protectorate ruler under the umbrella of which several other secondary and tributary people existed.

So if I say Yoruba empire was the only and authentic nation before the creation of the "new society" (Nigeria), I went as far back as possible to see if any of the current three major tribes had that attribute of an ancient Kingdom (Songhay, Oyo, Mali, Kanem, Benin, Ashanti. . . .etc) The Hausas do not have a nation either. The seven states belong to Fulani nation and was formulated after the model of Oyo empire, long after Oyo had been the single Protectorate in the region. The Igbo kingdom, so to speak, cannot even be identified in any of this context of state/nation/empire/kingdom.

Eze,

You are funny and I'm glad that you find yourself amusing because I see you opened with laughter.

Look, I wish to disclose to you that the civil war was not your war. You fought a war that should have been directed externally at the British, not internally at other tribes.

Go and read Awo's conversation with Ojukwu. . . . reflect on what Awo was saying and you will get it. Ojukwu did not understand the implicit meaning.

Yoruba was disfavored by British because they knew our intent against their presence.

Negro_Ntns:

Eze,

You are funny and I'm glad that you find yourself amusing because I see you opened with laughter.

Look, I wish to disclose to you that the civil war was not your war. You fought a war that should have been directed externally at the British, not internally at other tribes.

Go and read Awo's conversation with Ojukwu. . . . reflect on what Awo was saying and you will get it. Ojukwu did not understand the implicit meaning.

Yoruba was disfavored by British because they knew our intent against their presence.

Are you suggesting Biafrans should have capitulated at the sight of drunken aggressors and probably head to neighboring country’s border like some people did?

^^^

Again?

Dont you get tired?

You must be hurting really bad

Are you suggesting Biafrans should have capitulated at the sight of drunken aggressors and probably head to neighboring country’s border like some people did?

No Dede, not at all. Igbos fought the battle vigilantly to the best of your abilities but war is not limited to the violent act of bloodshed.

Nigeria should have been the first African nation to gain independence if Zik and Balewa had supported Awo's challenge to the British, which is simply that both charters of first, The League of Nations, and second, its successor The UN, made their continued presence in Nigeria illegitimate. If Britain would advocate against rival Netherlands and called their presence in South Africa an illegitimate station and demanded that they exit SA, then it ought to set a moral example for the world, by declaring sovereign independece for Nigeria.

Awo questioned the validity of England's intent when in middle 1800s it declared an end to slavery and patrolled the seas enforcing those demands. In effect and in its occupation of those lands, England was advocating economic interests, . . . . far from being a moral leader.

Awo never hid his contempt for the British but he was tactful and remained engaged to the extent that the interests of Western region was not thwarted.

The civil war did not start in 1966. . . . it erupted into bloodshed in that year, but it had brewed for years.

Artificial coalitions were created by Britain to frustrate the West. Part of that coalition was the military configuration mentioned earlier. If Yorubas had listened to Akintola instead of Awo, we would have ended up worse than Igbos are today. The plan was to put a coalition of North/East together to destroy West. Then use power and access to dominate East with North. In all of that the only winner will be Britain, because North will then be outwitted and contained.

Biafra fought the white man's war. . . thinking they fought a tribal war.

Negro_Ntns:

Biafra fought the white man's war. . . thinking they fought a tribal war.

Biafra didn't declare war. Biafra wasn't back by European powers.

Negro_Ntns:

No Dede, not at all. Igbos fought the battle vigilantly to the best of your abilities but war is not limited to the violent act of bloodshed.

Nigeria should have been the first African nation to gain independence if Zik and Balewa had supported Awo's challenge to the British, which is simply that both charters of first, The League of Nations, and second, its successor The UN, made their continued presence in Nigeria illegitimate. If Britain would advocate against rival Netherlands and called their presence in South Africa an illegitimate station and demanded that they exit SA, then it ought to set a moral example for the world, by declaring sovereign independece for Nigeria.

Awo questioned the validity of England's intent when in middle 1800s it declared an end to slavery and patrolled the seas enforcing those demands. In effect and in its occupation of those lands, England was advocating economic interests, . . . . far from being a moral leader.

Awo never hid his contempt for the British but he was tactful and remained engaged to the extent that the interests of Western region was not thwarted.

The civil war did not start in 1966. . . . it erupted into bloodshed in that year, but it had brewed for years.

Artificial coalitions were created by Britain to frustrate the West. Part of that coalition was the military configuration mentioned earlier. If Yorubas had listened to Akintola instead of Awo, we would have ended up worse than Igbos are today. The plan was to put a coalition of North/East together to destroy West. Then use power and access to dominate East with North. In all of that the only winner will be Britain, because North will then be outwitted and contained.

Biafra fought the white man's war. . . thinking they fought a tribal war.

Believe me, it is either some of the Awolowo disciples think that most of us are undiscerning onlookers or the Awoists had monopoly on historical facts. I have read considerable amount of statements about constitutional conferences on Nigeria from 1946 to 1958. I have never picked up an iota where Awolow drew a line in the sand and threw a gauntlet to the feet of British colonialists demanding independent for Nigeria now or war.

Every article had indicated totally different aspect of events from this pathetic feel-happy fallacy. As a matter of fact, the colonialists had strategized a plan for a coalition partnership between NPC and AG because the colonial masters had thrills from politics of regionalism adopted by NPC and AG instead of nationalistic pictures painted by NCNC. However, the stunning victories scored by NCNC in eastern and western regions during 1954 federal election got the British scrambling backwards due to apparent NCNC’s strength in federal executive ministerial council.

^^^^

You are entitled to your opinion, but desist from trying to pass it off as facts. And, no you are not as well informed as you claim.

Negro_Ntns:

Physics,

The indigenity of the cultures you mentioned is not in dispute, neither is their antiquity. In the context of the post that drew this response, I went bottom up to the protectorate ruler under the umbrella of which several other secondary and tributary people existed.

So if I say Yoruba empire was the only and authentic nation before the creation of the "new society" (Nigeria), I went as far back as possible to see if any of the current three major tribes had that attribute of an ancient Kingdom (Songhay, Oyo, Mali, Kanem, Benin, Ashanti. . . .etc) The Hausas do not have a nation either. The seven states belong to Fulani nation and was formulated after the model of Oyo empire, long after Oyo had been the single Protectorate in the region. The Igbo kingdom, so to speak, cannot even be identified in any of this context of state/nation/empire/kingdom.

Okay, I get what you meant now. You were only talking of the three major ethnic groups.


However, I disagree with your assertion about the Hausas:

"The earliest source to mention Amina is Muhammad Bello's history Ifaq al-Maysur, composed around 1836. He claims that she was "the first to establish government among them," and she forced Katsina, Kano and other regions to pay tribute to her.[2] Bello, unfortunately provided no chronological details about her. She is also mentioned in the Kano Chronicle, a well-regarded and detailed history of the city of Kano, composed in the late 19th century, but incorporating earlier documentary material. According to this chronicle, she was a contemporary of Muhammad Dauda, who ruled from 1421–38, and Amina conquered as far as Nupe and Kwarafa, collected tribute from far and wide and ruled for 34 years.[3] A number of scholars accept this information and date her reign to the early to mid-15th century.[4][5]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amina


"The seven original states of Hausaland: Katsina, Daura, Kano, Zazzau, Gobir, Rano, and Garun Gabas cover an area of approximately 500 square miles and comprise the heart of Hausaland. In the sixteenth century, Queen Bakwa Turunku built the capital of Zazzau at Zaria, named after her younger daughter. Eventually, the entire state of Zazzau was renamed Zaria, which is now a province in present-day Nigeria.

However it was her elder daughter, the legendary Amina (or Aminatu), who inherited her mother's warlike nature. Amina was 16 years old when her mother became queen and she was given the traditional title of magajiya. She honed her military skills and became famous for her bravery and military exploits, as she is celebrated in song as "Amina daughter of Nikatau, a woman as capable as a man."

Amina is credited as the architect who created the strong earthen walls around the city, which was the prototype for the fortifications used in all Hausa states. She built many of these fortifications, which became known as ganuwar Amina or Amina's walls, around various conquered cities.

The objectives of her conquests were twofold: extension of Zazzau beyond its primary borders and reducing the conquered cities to vassal status. Sultan Muhammad Bello of Sokoto stated that, "She made war upon these countries and overcame them entirely so that the people of Katsina paid tribute to her and the men of Kano [and], also made war on cities of Bauchi till her kingdom reached to the sea in the south and the west." Likewise, she led her armies as far as Nupe and, according to the Kano Chronicle, "The Sarkin Nupe sent her [the princess] 40 eunuchs and 10,000 kola nuts. She was the first in Hausaland to own eunuchs and kola nuts."

Amina was a preeminent gimbiya (princess) but various theories exist as to the time of her reign or if she ever was a queen. One explanation states that she reigned from approximately 1536 to 1573, while another posits that she became queen after her brother Karama's death, in 1576. Yet another claims that although she was a leading princess, she was never a queen.

Despite the discrepancies, over a 34-year period, her many conquests and subsequent annexation of the territories extended the borders of Zaria, which also grew in importance and became the center of the North-South Saharan trade and the East-West Sudan trade. "

http://blackhistorypages.net/pages/amina.php




Also, there is no evidence that the Sokoto caliphate was modeled after the Oyo empire.

This thread inspired my thread on Nigeria's history via News stories and videos :

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-693700.0.html

When can we all say the TRUTH?