Igwe-1:

You guys should remember that IGBOs are everywhere. If you factor the number of igbos outside south east( 7million in lagos assuming lagos is 18million as projected, about 2.5million in kano, plus millions in other places like kaduan, abuja, bayelsa, delta,) Igbos easily have the highest population in Nigeria. That is the reason why OBJ and the north did not want to include the ethnicity question in the last census because they knew the truth will be out. OBJ wants the old dynamic of Huasa>Yoruba>Igbo to stay instead of the other way round because the people that benefit the most are Yorubas. This is the real truth. Jonathan should redo this census because it was total crap. The UN was giving a state like anambra 7million but the census said 4million, just to tell you the degree of descripancy.

There are 2.5 million Igbos in Kano  That sounds very fake to me. What %age of the population of Kano city is then Igbo? 30%? 40%?

I don't see how Hausa > Yoruba > Igbo benefits us more than Igbo > Yoruba > Hausa. In the latter situation, the Hausaman wants to secede and form his own new country. . . since political power (and thus control of oil wealth) is all that is keeping him in Nigeria. How do Yoruba lose if we go from #2 to #2?

You'll also have to definitely cite this UN # for Anambrarians. . .

ekt_bear:

There are 2.5 million Igbos in Kano That sounds very fake to me. What %age of the population of Kano city is then Igbo? 30%? 40%?

I don't see how Hausa > Yoruba > Igbo benefits us more than Igbo > Yoruba > Hausa. In the latter situation, the Hausaman wants to secede and form his own new country. . . since political power (and thus control of oil wealth) is all that is keeping him in Nigeria. How do Yoruba lose if we go from #2 to #2?

You'll also have to definitely cite this UN # for Anambrarians. . .

There are multiple sources on these. I will pull them up when i get a chance. Bottomline is that Igbos are the most populated ethnic group in nigeria by all Margins but the conspiracy of the Yoruba and Hausa and Britian has kept the truth hidden. Thats why i want an honest person to lead Nigeria so the truth can come to light.

These are the top 5 economically vibrant states in Nigeria, places to site your business (especially for those abroad):

Lagos
Rivers
Delta
Oyo
Imo

Hrm, I guess you've probably visited those places  extensively, unlike us southerners. Can you give  specific estimates for each of those states? The large  cities mainly, not the rural areas (I looked at Kano non- urban LGAs and believe they are heavily inflated.)  What do the #s look like in your opinion?

Honestly i don't have access to those figures at the moment but what i know when i visited kano metropolis last year i saw lots of people, i mean real fcking humans . And that guy does have a point, there lot's of igbos in kano but i doubt that 2.5 mil estimate. If there're more igbos in kano than there're in kd then he could have a point.

ekt_bear:
Comments:
1) Likely under 8 million Ijaw in Nigeria. 5% is a better estimate than 10%.
2) #s for the three major ethnic groups, dunno. But populationwise, proly Igbo (#1), Yoruba (#2), Hausa-Fulani (#3).3) I'm a bit surprised that they were too lazy to get updated GDP figures for states. . . using that same 2007 Canback database that they just grabbed from Wikipedia Grin Grin Grin I wish they'd been less cheap and purchased updated figures. I'd really like to know how the states stack up GDP-wise.
4) Igboland literacy rates for women, phenomenal.

Overall though, seems like a fairly decent summary of naija, I think.

This agrees with data from UME, WAEC, mobile telephony, bank accounts, etc.

RichyBlacK:

This agrees with data from UME, WAEC, mobile telephony, bank accounts, etc.

Can you provide references to the telephone and bank data? For example, state-by-state usage of cellular phones would tell a lot.

odumchi:

Let's use some common sense, the north is mostly desert and a dry savannah, how can such a barren region have a greater population than the fertile, arable south?

Not true. You are confusing Niger Republic with Northern Nigeria. This is a rehash of myths that have been peddled by Southern pseudo-intellectuals that do not bear up to scrutiny. All over the world, the major population centers tend to lie in the flood plains and along the tributaries of major rivers, whether Nile, Congo, Niger, Euphrates & Tigris, Ganges or Yangtze rivers. With that in mind it should not be surprising that the NW has a high population given that it abuts the River Niger - the 3rd largest river in the world.

Both annual and seasonal floods have made the Niger River basin extremely fertile, facilitating extensive farming activities.

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Niger_river_map.PNG[/img]
Map of the Niger River, and Niger River Basin shown in green

Answer this: How many rivers in the North are tributaries of River Niger?
Here is one river:

The Kaduna River is a tributary of the Niger River which flows for 550 kilometres through Nigeria. It got its name from the crocodiles that lived in the river and surrounding area. Kaduna in the native dialect, Hausa, was the word for "crocodiles"

This is a clearly nonsense post. My friend have you ever been to the North or the "Ugwu Hausa"?
The North Is a savannah grassland that is barren except for small shrubs. Why do you think Hausa and Fulani men wrap themselves in turban-like clothing inorder to protect themselves from the sand storms and dry wind? Also to correct you, most of the Hausa population in Niger, Republic exist directly above Katsina State Nigeria or into easten Niger.

This type of climate cannot support extensive agriculture, and agriculture leads into large populations. This climate only supports the grazing of herd animals such as goats, cows and sheep, thus making the proper population figure Igbo>Yoruba>Hausa.

aletheia:

Not true. You are confusing Niger Republic with Northern Nigeria. This is a rehash of myths that have been peddled by Southern pseudo-intellectuals that do not bear up to scrutiny. All over the world, the major population centers tend to lie in the flood plains and along the tributaries of major rivers, whether Nile, Congo, Niger, Euphrates & Tigris, Ganges or Yangtze rivers. With that in mind it should not be surprising that the NW has a high population given that it abuts the River Niger - the 3rd largest river in the world.

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Niger_river_map.PNG[/img]
Map of the Niger River, and Niger River Basin shown in green

Answer this: How many rivers in the North are tributaries of River Niger?
Here is one river:

Question for Igbos I have: How and why are there so many of you? What exactly caused it? Was there some sort of population explosion after you guys started interacting with the white man? I don't think you guys could have been the most numerous ethnic group in the 1700s or so. . . otherwise you'd have had more structures on the ground (major cities, etc.) So I'm kind of curious what happened.

Or maybe less negatively affected by the slave trade. . . ? I dunno.

ekt_bear:

Question for Igbos I have: How and why are there so many of you? What exactly caused it? Was there some sort of population explosion after you guys started interacting with the white man? I don't think you guys could have been the most numerous ethnic group in the 1700s or so. . . otherwise you'd have had more structures on the ground (major cities, etc.) So I'm kind of curious what happened.

Or maybe less negatively affected by the slave trade. . . ? I dunno.

Having 9 children per family helps.

odumchi:

This is a clearly nonsense post. My friend have you ever been to the North or the "Ugwu Hausa"?
The North Is a savannah grassland that is barren except for small shrubs. Why do you think Hausa and Fulani men wrap themselves in turban-like clothing inorder to protect themselves from the sand storms and dry wind? Also to correct you, most of the Hausa population in Niger, Republic exist directly above Katsina State Nigeria or into easten Niger.

This type of climate cannot support extensive agriculture, and agriculture leads into large populations. This climate only supports the grazing of herd animals such as goats, cows and sheep, thus making the proper population figure Igbo>Yoruba>Hausa.

Please stop ventilating your bigotry-fuelled ignorance. The problem with you is that you are deliberately ignorant and you are willfully refusing to educate yourself.

1) I live in the North. I have travelled to several northern states. And before you dismiss me as a Hausa, know that I am not.  

2) Obviously you do not understand what savanna is. You keep mistaking the savanna ecosystem for some sort of desert. What sort of crops grow in the savanna regions? I hope you realize that cereals are more energy-dense than tubers and thus cereals can support a higher population. Please read up on the geography of Nigeria. Stop pontificating on your ignorance. In which part of the country are the cereals of millet and guinea corn grown? Most of the guinea corn, millet, tomatoes, groundnuts etc eaten in Nigeria, where does it come from?

The savannah zone's three categories are divided into mm' Guinean forest-savanna mosaic, made up of plains of tall grass which are interrupted by trees, the most common across the country; Sudan savannah, similar but with shorter grasses and shorter trees; and Sahel savannah patches of grass and sand, found in the northeast

 

3) Address the facts as posted by myself in the earlier post , and stop appealing to sentiment.
Again I ask you this question: how many rivers drain into the River Niger in the North? How many rivers can you count below.



The corollary of which is this: the hundreds of dams in the north are for what purpose? Or the extensive cotton and groundnut farming of the pre-crude oil era; was it in the Southeast that they were grown?

You are the one posting nonsense.

@Ileke-Idi: My granddad had a ton of kids. And I remember talking to this 37 year old cab driver from Offa (in Kwara.) He said his dad had like 25+ children

I think in Yorubaland in the olden days, kids would just die a lot when young from common ailments. Healthcare was very poor then? Now it is relatively much better, so much less dying from ordinary childhood ailments. This is something that would lead to huge population growth.

Perhaps something similar happened in Igboland. Another thing too. . . they didn't really expend as much energy in the 1600s, 1700s as we did on empire building/warfare. So perhaps naturally this would lead to more resources just on farming, feeding, and increasing population? Too bad we don't have demographics from that time period.

@Beaf, it is ok, Delta State will always be behind Rivers State. I am glad Rivers state is shining over the rest of the county, but more work needs to be done. I salute Amaechi!

@Ekiti bear
Interesting perception. I'd have liked to review those demographics too.

well "tons of kids" dont work for Yoruba women anymore. I believe 2-3 is fine with them.

There are way too many Anambra Igbos. That is the true Igbo heartland. The cradle of Igbo civilizaiton. We periphery Igbos just wonder, why they are so many of them.

^^^ Is there a reason why my question is being ignored on the other thread? Simply say you dont have the answer

ekt_bear:

Question for Igbos I have: How and why are there so many of you? What exactly caused it? Was there some sort of population explosion after you guys started interacting with the white man? I don't think you guys could have been the most numerous ethnic group in the 1700s or so. . . otherwise you'd have had more structures on the ground (major cities, etc.) So I'm kind of curious what happened.

Or maybe less negatively affected by the slave trade. . . ? I dunno.

The Igbo population has always been large. Even during the height of the slave trade, there will still plenty of Igbos. We Igbos were impacted greatly by slavery, in which many Igbos were taken from our shores. I am pretty sure if they were not taken, that Igbos would be the most numerous group in Africa in general. Large families are quite common amongst the Igbo. Even educated Igbos often have large families. My father and mother are well educated and they had 5 children.

After the war as well, there was a sudden boom in Igbos being born. Many Igbos seen that they had to repopulate in order to replace those who were lost.

Lets spice up this thread a lil, shall we?


[flash=400,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWayBgnIEec?fs=1&hl=en_US>[/flash]

EzeUche:


The Igbo population has always been large. Even during the height of the slave trade, there will still plenty of Igbos. We Igbos were impacted greatly by slavery, in which many Igbos were taken from our shores. I am pretty sure if they were not taken, that Igbos would be the most numerous group in Africa in general. Large families are quite common amongst the Igbo. Even educated Igbos often have large families. My father and mother are well educated and they had 5 children.

After the war as well, there was a sudden boom in Igbos being born. Many Igbos seen that they had to repopulate in order to replace those who were lost.

But how could you have been so numerous and still not had any structures on the ground in the 1700s and 1800s? Or 1600s? Especially in such a small piece of land? No major cities to speak of? Places like Oyo have been known to non-Africans for a long time. Kano has likely been known by Arabs, North Africans, possibly Europeans since like the 1200s. Why no comparable city in Igboland in even the 1500s or 1600s?

That is why I think something changed recently, within the past 150 years. Maybe you guys farmed some poor agricultural product, then through trade got one that thrived a lot more. Something like this would lead to a population explosion.

ekt_bear:

But how could you have been so numerous and still not had any structures on the ground in the 1700s and 1800s? Or 1600s? Especially in such a small piece of land? No major cities to speak of? Places like Oyo have been known to non-Africans for a long time. Kano has likely been known by Arabs, North Africans, possibly Europeans since like the 1200s. Why no comparable city in Igboland in even the 1500s or 1600s?

That is why I think something changed recently, within the past 150 years. Maybe you guys farmed some poor agricultural product, then through trade got one that thrived a lot more. Something like this would lead to a population explosion.

Look at the topography of Alaigbo and you will understand why the Igbos were so numerous. Keep in mind not all Igbo clans had a lot of people. The clans found in Ebonyi and Enugu did not have the amount of Igbos compared to Anambra and Imo. To be honest, I think it was the fertility of the soil that was found in the Anambra valley and other areas in modern day Imo state, that increased crop yields. With larger crop yields, the Ndigbo were able to increase their numbers.

It is hard to use Western views on civilization and the progress of humanity for all people around the world. The Igbo were just different in how our society and civilization rose. Igbos chose to live in numerous villages instead of forming large towns. That is how our society developed.

EzeUche:

It is hard to use Western views on civilization and the progress of humanity for all people around the world. The Igbo were just different in how our society and civilization rose. Igbos chose to live in numerous villages instead of forming large towns. That is how our society developed.

It isn't Western views, though. It applies everywhere. . . Europe, Asia, Africa, Inca Empire, etc, etc. Great peoples build sophisticated societies. Major towns, cities. . .trade centers. Something. Conquer a bunch of land. Make their imprint on their environs known. "Numerous villages" doesn't really fit that pattern. That is why I think something happened in the 1800s.

Probably someone like PhysicsQED who knows Nigerian history (and might know Igbo history) will know the answer. Hopefully he posts.

EDIT: Anyway, this new direction is a major derailment of the thread. So I'll stop now.

I have states my point and allknow it's the truth. Northern Nigeria cannot support a large sedentary agricultural population other than the wild grasses that grow there.

Rice is produced in the patties of the south, and rove is Nigerias sustenance. The North cannot support a large population due to limitations on cattle, land, and again Fertility.
And remember rice will always feed more than sorghum. And another thing is most of those Maps that you showed are geographically outdated. Desertification Is rapidly approaching the North, even though it lies on the Sahel.

aletheia:

Please stop ventilating your bigotry-fuelled ignorance. The problem with you is that you are deliberately ignorant and you are willfully refusing to educate yourself.

1) I live in the North. I have travelled to several northern states. And before you dismiss me as a Hausa, know that I am not.  

2) Obviously you do not understand what savanna is. You keep mistaking the savanna ecosystem for some sort of desert. What sort of crops grow in the savanna regions? I hope you realize that cereals are more energy-dense than tubers and thus cereals can support a higher population. Please read up on the geography of Nigeria. Stop pontificating on your ignorance. In which part of the country are the cereals of millet and guinea corn grown? Most of the guinea corn, millet, tomatoes, groundnuts etc eaten in Nigeria, where does it come from?

 

3) Address the facts as posted by myself in the earlier post , and stop appealing to sentiment.
Again I ask you this question: how many rivers drain into the River Niger in the North? How many rivers can you count below.



The corollary of which is this: the hundreds of dams in the north are for what purpose? Or the extensive cotton and groundnut farming of the pre-crude oil era; was it in the Southeast that they were grown?

You are the one posting nonsense.

ekt_bear:

It isn't Western views, though. It applies everywhere. . . Europe, Asia, Africa, Inca Empire, etc, etc. Great peoples build sophisticated societies. Major towns, cities. . .trade centers. Something. Conquer a bunch of land. Make their imprint on their environs known. "Numerous villages" doesn't really fit that pattern. That is why I think something happened in the 1800s.

Probably someone like PhysicsQED who knows Nigerian history (and might know Igbo history) will know the answer. Hopefully he posts.

EDIT: Anyway, this new direction is a major derailment of the thread. So I'll stop now.

It is definitely Western views. I think you need to read The African Origin of Civilization: Myth or Reality by Cheikh Anta Diop. That should open your eyes. Most African groups did not form the sort of cities that you are thinking of. Most of the African groups that created these cities were influenced in one way or the other by the arrival of the Arabs in Africa.

If you look at the major African empires, most of them were either influenced by Arabs and Islamic culture. But as you move South, you will see most of the African groups did not have these major cities, but settlements. The powerful Zulu did not have major cities, but they did have a lot of people. The same goes for the Xhosa as well.

Most African groups did not go out in conquer, like Europeans or Asians, because we had no need to do so. The African states that did conquer such as the Ashanti and Dahomey were influenced by the arrival of Europeans who demanded slaves.

And I am not saying numerous villages, I am stating numerous settlements. Birth rates have always been high in Igboland since time immemorial. It is ingrained in our culture to have as many children as possible. Plus, we Igbos were never migratory. So of course, with an abundance of food, we would be able to sustain or population.

The Igbo population was always large and well. In 1700, the Igbo Kingdom of Arochukwu boasted a population of three million, more than that of even great Britain at the time. Igbos were well known craftsman, traders, merchants, hunters and etc that they spread out and settled in various trading communities.

Infact there have been accounts of Igbo merchants in Lagos before 1900. The Igbo built great towns such as Onitsha, Enugu, Igbo Ukwu, Arochukwu and Ohafia. The secret to our population growth was yam tubars. Yam was an easily harvested food article that was nutritious and could grow from almost any part of the tubar. Infact, the it is not suprising to say that the Igbo population could have reached 10 million by 1700, but then dropped due to the impending slave trade and risen again in the 1800s as new crips such as wild rice and corn came from the New World. I believe the Igbo homeland to be IMO and ABIA state.

ekt_bear:

Question for Igbos I have: How and why are there so many of you? What exactly caused it? Was there some sort of population explosion after you guys started interacting with the white man? I don't think you guys could have been the most numerous ethnic group in the 1700s or so. . . otherwise you'd have had more structures on the ground (major cities, etc.) So I'm kind of curious what happened.

Or maybe less negatively affected by the slave trade. . . ? I dunno.

odumchi:

I have states my point and allknow it's the truth. Northern Nigeria cannot support a large sedentary agricultural population other than the wild grasses that grow there.

Rice is produced in the patties of the south, and rove is Nigerias sustenance. The North cannot support a large population due to limitations on cattle, land, and again Fertility.  
And remember rice will always feed more than sorghum. And another thing is most of those Maps that you showed are geographically outdated. Desertification Is rapidly approaching the North, even though it lies on the Sahel.

^Answer the questions I asked you. So the only cereal you know is rice? How much rice is grown in Nigeria? Most of the rice consumed in Nigeria comes from Asia and is hardly eaten in the north where the staple is their traditional cereals. Your ignorance is appalling. Again I ask you: millet, guinea corn, tomatoes, groundnuts: which part of the country are these mostly grown? So the cattle roaming around in the Northern savanna grasslands are non-existent? Where does the beef you eat come from? Is it from ranches in the Southeast?

Those rivers on the maps, are they non-existent? And stop repeating myths. "Desertification is rapidly approaching the North". Which part of the North is now a desert? Just goes to show that you did not look at the map. Like I said you are willfully ignorant. Look again and you will see a portion highlighted as "marginal savanna". What does that tell you?
If you don't know ask. I posted a map showing you the extent of the Niger River Basin. River Kaduna, which is just one of it's tributaries flows over a distance of 550km. Do you think the area irrigated by the River Niger and its tributaries are arid deserts? Even with the evidence staring you in the face, you persist in your foolishness. Do you think the prosperous city-states of northern Nigeria would have existed and thrived in the North, if there existed no fertile flood plains? Looking at the history of West Africa, why do you think the empires of West Africa have all been connected to the River Niger in one way or the other?

Why do I even bother with you. It is obvious you are blinded by bigotry to the facts. Try and visit Kano, one of these days.

Thank you for someone else bringing up the Aro Confederacy. I didn't want to bring my people up, because it would seem that some do not like to hear about the powerful Aro kingdom in the East.

^^

All hail the great Aro! 

@Ekt-bear

So, you didn't know that African kingdoms never built on physical structures but human structures?
I think Ezeuche answered excellently by citing the Zulu empire. If the whites never witnessed it or fought the zulus, they probably wouldn't even know the kingdom existed.

As for the Igbo, there was the Nri, which spread beyond Igboland, though it was not an empire. It was more of a priesthood binding huge swathes of ancient Igbo land. The structures are in the form of human institutions some of which survive till this day.

My guess is that those African kingdoms would have subsequently copied the whites and arabs to build walled cities to check invaders. The Igbo heartland was too hostile to invaders due to the dense forests which only allowed the few travelled Igbo merchants to know about the existence of other Igbo groups.

Why build a wall when you have agbo ugiri nze ( a very thick forest surrounding my town in the olden days)?

agbo ugiri nze was reputed to have all kinds of the most dangerous animals living in it from lions, to leopard to anacondas, plus a lake claimed to be so deep, and permanently covered by leaves that you never knew its bounds.

I wouldn't want to dare the locals in such an environment because you would be fighting nature more than man.

The analysis by BBC seems good but how come OYO was rated higher than Akwa Ibom and Bayelsa in wealth, how come Aba and Onitsha couldn't raise the ratings of their bearer states.

The analysis also shows the GDP of abuja lower than Nassarawa , Edo, Ogun and Imo, we all know the truth.

Was BBC staff drunk or what or is this another ploy to unmake Nigeria again like they did in the 50s

Agbo ugiri nze was reputed to be this and that yet it didn't deliver or even hinder the northern army in the 60s .

Please this is 2011 and most NL are enlightened.

In mathematics, there is what is called an intelligent guess. lets take it from this very similar analogy, in the old rivers state (bayelsa and the present rivers), there use to be some elecctoral figures coming out during elections. when an upland candidate was winning in port harcourt, they will tell you that another vote is coming from the riverine areas, and once this voote came in, the supposed winner from the upland looses automatically, it took years, and after the separation or creation of bayelsa state, the the ikwerre, ogoni and ekpeye people found out that their population was far greater than the bayelsa and its riverine communities, and there after, they the ijaws lost electoral relevance in the present rivers state.
why am i bringing this up, i want to agree with odumchi and edoyad or their analysis of the bbc survey. If yu look at the igbos in diaspora, the have a very strong and competitive population in every state of nigeria. If an honest census is carried out (disregarding obasanjo and northern elite manupulations), i can bet yu the Igbos will be a force to reckon with on paper and on ground.
Again, lets look at Ibibios, you find them also everywhere compared to the ijaws who bbc say are more than the ibibios.
southern kaduna far more developed than most hausa states and northern kaduna, largely becos of chriistianity.

just an unbiased arguement.

odumchi:

You might be correct here. Let's use some common sense, the north is mostly desert and a dry savannah, how can such a barren region have a greater population than the fertile, arable south? And the true Hausa Fulani population in Nigeria is probably less than 20million. The rest are most likely conquered peoples who maintain their distinct culture but still speak the Hausa Language.

The actual true Hausa Population is around 15million with 5million Fulanis. Remember the Fulani and Hausa are different peoples who were united in 1804 by Usman Dan Fodio. So the actual population Numbers would really be (1) Yoruba 35million +-  (2) Igbo 35 million +-  (3) Hausa 23 million  (4) Ijaw 7 million (5) Fulani 3 million (6) Other 45 million

this is a myth that  just does not stack up with the facts. i do not and cannot know what the likely population of the different parts of nigeria is but i know what my visceral bias would like it to be.
desert or not the fact remains that the north feeds the south with grain,peppers,tomatoes,potatoes,millet onions,beef,sheep,goats and chickens the flow of these products in nigeria is unidirectional from north to south ALWAYS. last year the transporters went on strike and lagos nearly starved with food price inflation of  more than 100%
this is where you find the highest level of irrigation and consumption of fertilisers and other agricultural inputs. there is very little mechanized agriculture in the south .what does this prove nothing really except that we in the south are desperate to show that we have a higher population. that particular argument is not good enough and indeed suggests the opposite to what is being argued.the reality is population has to be measured in the field not deduced by specious reasoning that seems good to us. i was in nigeria during the last census and know for a fact that ethnicity was not recorded during the last census. for all we know the majority population of kano may be igbo but there is no way of demonstrating this. the other issue is polygamy this is greatest in northern nigeria. the most recent voter register suggest a higher population in the north. i know people will say it is rigged but the one fact that won't go away is that this so-called desert produces enough food  for itself and kindly  sends some down to us in our arable south.