@OLAADEGBU

In the first instance let me say this once again : I am a practising christian and I believe in miracles.

Now to your point - there is nothing hard to believe about OBL been killed all it takes is a bullet. There is nothing supernatural about that.However I have an instant suspicion of pastors who go up on stage and say what miracles they have performed - it sounds to much like marketing.

If you were that eye doctor that saw nerves growing into an artificial eye - would you keep it to yourself ? If so, please explain why.

I believe that miracles from God are between the individual and God - all these pastors who boast about miracles are just out to make a quick buck.

EarsWide:

@OLAADEGBU

In the first instance let me say this once again : I am a practising christian and I believe in miracles.

This is where your problem lies.  I will rather believe in the God of miracles than to believe in miracles.  Satan and his ministers can perform magic and call it miracles even man can make tricks and call it miracles but if you believe that with God nothing is impossible you will not be deceived.

EarsWide:

Now to your point - there is nothing hard to believe about OBL been killed all it takes is a bullet. There is nothing supernatural about that.However I have an instant suspicion of pastors who go up on stage and say what miracles they have performed - it sounds to much like marketing.

So because it is not supernatural it is easy to believe, have you seen the pictorial evidence of his death and burial?  Why would you choose to believe the words of men instead of the words of bonafide men of God?

EarsWide:

If you were that eye doctor that saw nerves growing into an artificial eye - would you keep it to yourself ? If so, please explain why.

I believe that miracles from God are between the individual and God - all these pastors who boast about miracles are just out to make a quick buck.

As you have qualified Doctors you also have quack doctors, do you believe anyone who claims to be a Doctor, wouldn't you investigate to find out whether he is genuine?  If you can do this why not differentiate between genuine men of God and men of fraud?  And when you are done would you take the word of a genuine Doctor over the words of a genuine man of God?  Medical science gives you facts while Jesus gives you the truth.  When facts meet with the truth it is the truth that always prevail, this doesn't mean that the facts are wrong it is just that the truth operates on a higher level, a supernatural level as opposed to the natural, do you compute?

@Olaadegbu

Why would you choose to believe the words of men instead of the words of bonafide men of God

That is the problem how do you know the bonafide men of God ? I am not inclined to believe someone who tells me the story of the eye with no proof of this - not even his doctor!
The thing is most pentecostal pastors who appear regularly on TV are nothing but frauds who claim miracles as a marketing tool.

I also think you are mixing things up - if a genuine miracle occurs, a doctor should be able to say that this has happened The doctor might not be able to explain how the miracle happened but he should be able to confirm the change in the patient. If no confirmation is forthcoming what stops anyone from making outlandish claims ?

Any pastor who goes up on stage and talks about his miracles should be treated with suspicion!

EarsWide:

@Olaadegbu
That is the problem how do you know the bonafide men of God ? I am not inclined to believe someone who tells me the story of the eye with no proof of this - not even his doctor!
The thing is most pentecostal pastors who appear regularly on TV are nothing but frauds who claim miracles as a marketing tool.

That is the question.  You are not inclined to believe someone who tells you the story of the eye with no proof and yet you believe the story in the news that OBL is dead even when there are no pictorial evidence   The fact that "most pentecostal pastors"are frauds does not mean that that the bonafide ones don't exist.  We are given enough equipment to detect the wolf from the sheep.  Jesus said by their fruits you shall know them and we are also given the test of Scriptures.

EarsWide:

I also think you are mixing things up - if a genuine miracle occurs, a doctor should be able to say that this has happened The doctor might not be able to explain how the miracle happened but he should be able to confirm the change in the patient. If no confirmation is forthcoming what stops anyone from making outlandish claims ?

What if no Doctor confirmed it, does that mean the healing didn't take place?  Do you remember the man the was born blind that got healed miraculously?  The Scribes and Pharisees would not believe that he was born blind the reason they called for his parents to confirm it.  But did they believe?  Now tell me, does that detract from the man who got healed, did that stop him from being healed?

EarsWide:

Any pastor who goes up on stage and talks about his miracles should be treated with suspicion!

Genuine men of God talk about the miracles that God has done so as to encourage and build up the faith of those who are expecting a miracle.  What a Christian needs is the spirit of discernment to discern the wolves in sheep clothings and not to be suspicious.

@OLAADEGBU

If 'most' pentecostal preachers are frauds - why are you surprised if every claim of healing is questioned ? The genuine preachers will be vindicated if their miracles are genuine.

EarsWide:

@OLAADEGBU

If 'most' pentecostal preachers are frauds - why are you surprised if every claim of healing is questioned ? The genuine preachers will be vindicated if their miracles are genuine.

Genuine preachers have nothing to lose, it is those who have allowed the charlatans to erode them of their faith in the God of miracles that are missing out.  As I have noted earlier, Christians should learn to discern the spirits because many false prophets are out there.  Do you know the ratio of One Moses to the magicians in Pharaoh's court that produced similar miracles of turning their rods into snakes?  At the end of the day the rod of Moses prevailed.

@OLAADEGBU

You are very right - we should not allow the charlatans to make us lose our faith.

@ Olaadegbu

Hi, its dare2think, long story

anyway, I agree with your last statement and i concur with earswide, but my question to you is;

1. As it is not written on their heads who the fake ones are, do we just keep silent when we see some of these "mog" doing something wrong? or do we voice our discontent like earswide and other reasonable folk on the religious section.
    An example of not speaking when you see your pastors doing something wrong is the case of Pastor Odulele in the UK who molested young boys, and according to reports, the church     elders knew of his conditions and kept mute.

2. I noticed, especially on this forum, when people debate the morality of these Men, some people come with the premise "touch not my anointed". This i belief is a flawed concept as nobody really knows the "anointed" except God. Some Men of God have abused that text and infused the brains of their congregation with confusion and deciet. Do we voice our opinions or do we keep mute?

Thanks.

EarsWide:

@OLAADEGBU

You are very right - we should not allow the charlatans to make us lose our faith.

Well said.

eard2think:
 
@ Olaadegbu

Hi, its dare2think, long story

anyway, I agree with your last statement and i concur with earswide, but my question to you is;

Hi, dare2think,

I can understand the frustration a lot of folks on this forum go through when the poliferation of these charlatans that are milking the populace dry, but we don't have to throw the baby out with the dirty water.

eard2think:

1. As it is not written on their heads who the fake ones are, do we just keep silent when we see some of these "mog" doing something wrong? or do we voice our discontent like earswide and other reasonable folk on the religious section.
    An example of not speaking when you see your pastors doing something wrong is the case of Pastor Odulele in the UK who molested young boys, and according to reports, the church     elders knew of his conditions and kept mute.

God has given us at least two litmust tests to detect or discern false prophets which you can read in the articles posted below: 

Read this article for a detailed explanation to your question.  Judging Others

eard2think:

2. I noticed, especially on this forum, when people debate the morality of these Men, some people come with the premise "touch not my anointed". This i belief is a flawed concept as nobody really knows the "anointed" except God. Some Men of God have abused that text and infused the brains of their congregation with confusion and deciet. Do we voice our opinions or do we keep mute?

Thanks.

This is another article that addresses your question.  Touch Not Mine Anointed

It is funny - it is not just that amputated limbs are never healed by the prosperity charlatans - they never even attempt it. Why is this ?

I bet no one has ever seen Benny Hinn, Copeland, Oyedepo, Ashimolowo or any of the others invite an amputee on stage with the intention of restoring lost limbs ?

Why ?? Because they are frauds!!!

EarsWide:

It is funny - it is not just that amputated limbs are never healed by the prosperity charlatans - they never even attempt it. Why is this ?

I bet no one has ever seen Benny Hinn, Copeland, Oyedepo, Ashimolowo or any of the others invite an amputee on stage with the intention of restoring lost limbs ?

Why ?? Because they are frauds!!!

Earswide, did you watch Derek's brown take on Healings?

Anything is possible with God. Have you forgotten the person whom Jesus healed/restored his ear after Peter amputated it?
Fact that healing of amputees wasn't recorded in the limited account of the bible doesn't mean it didn't happen. Please don't limit God with your mouths.

And to correct someone on here, when the Holy Spirit is concerned, it's not about "magical powers". That would entail that you control the Holy Spirit. God cannot be controlled. Those he operates in are given specific instructions on what to do in a specific situation. There have been cases of amputees being healed even today.

Now to answer the OP, To everyone God has given the grace for certain things. To each their own assignment.
I am not against the understanding that God wants his children to live a life free of oppression. I am also not into the mindset that certain people share in the body of Christ that it is all about money. Instead of fasting and praying for my blessing, I would rather fast and pray for someone else's or[b] even more importantly[/b], fast and pray that certain unsaved people I know come to know Christ's salvation.

I understand that, like any boss, if he sees you are doing your work well (i.e. seeking the kingdom), he will no doubt reward you with bonuses, raises, promotion opportunities, inclusion to his close circle, etc on top of the general blessings. you wouldn't even need to ask. So it is with the Kingdom of God.

Because they are all frauds. They cannot perform miracles. Did Jesus'  apostles perform miracles? NO!


I bet when the amputees came back to the pastors and asked why their legs/arms have not grown over night they told the amputees it was because they did not have enough "FAITH"

After they have chopped finish their monies.

Don't get me wrong there "men of God" who do according to God but the majority of "men of God" just turn the house of God into a market place.

2buff:

And to correct someone on here, when the Holy Spirit is concerned, it's not about "magical powers". That would entail that you control the Holy Spirit. God cannot be controlled. Those he operates in are given specific instructions on what to do in a specific situation. There have been cases of amputees being healed even today.

Such as, ?

Remote circumstances that haven't been put on media. A lot goes on in the mission field than you know.
I suppose the real question is "why doesn't God heal the amputees [b]I[/b]want to see healed".
Understand this:

God is not entirely moved by the grievousness of our circumstances-
if He were, Satan could lead Him around, anywhere he wanted.
He would be the head (leader) and God would be the tail (follower),
and that's not how God operates.

--------------------

kandiikane:

Because they are all frauds. They cannot perform miracles. Did Jesus'  apostles perform miracles? NO!

Yes they did when he finally gave them the power to go out and minister
Before you sound so sure of something, you could at least research it.

2buff:

Remote circumstances that haven't been put on media. A lot goes on in the mission field than you know.
I suppose the real question is "why doesn't God heal the amputees [b]I[/b]want to see healed".
Understand this:

God is not entirely moved by the grievousness of our circumstances-
if He were, Satan could lead Him around, anywhere he wanted.
He would be the head (leader) and God would be the tail (follower),
and that's not how God operates.

So, I take it that you have witnessed or seen one miracle done, (since a lot goes on that I dont know of).

Have you seen or witnessed an amputee healed?

I have heard reports from trusted sources as well as before-after pics.
I have not physically seen, doesn't mean I intend to put a cap on what God can and can't do.
Who am I or you to do that?

2buff:

I have heard reports from trusted sources as well as before-after pics.
I have not physically seen, doesn't mean I intend to put a cap on what God can and can't do.
Who am I or you to do that?

The bolded is what I needed to know.

Did you see me write anything to object the power of God?

What I object is the power of deceit.

And as for the "no such thing in the bible". Here, is one such accounts of God doing this work.
You know you can find a whole lot of things in the bible if you simply just open it.

MATTHEW 15

30. And great multitudes came unto him, having with them
those that were lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others,
and cast them down at Jesus' feet; and he healed them:
31. Insomuch that the multitude wondered,
when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be whole,
the lame to walk, and the blind to see:
and they Glorified the God of Israel.

Or were you looking for the exact word "amputee"?  
I suppose you should also look for the word "stethoscope" in the bible.

2buff:

I have heard reports from trusted sources as well as before-after pics.
I have not physically seen, doesn't mean I intend to put a cap on what God can and can't do.
Who am I or you to do that?

Since we are not priviledged to have the same "Trusted"sources, is it possible, for the sake of all non-believers and believers alike, to share the before and after pics?

dare2think:

The bolded is what I needed to know.

Did you see me write anything to object the power of God?

What I object is the power of deceit.

^^ I am not omniscient. I only see what is in front of my eyes and the world is a big place.
So if you are not objecting God's power, then what is the point of wanting to know whether I have "seen it physically"? Contradiction reveals your true intent.

As you can see the in the bible excerpt I posted, this is one of such examples in the bible of God healing the amputated.
If it was done then, it can be done today, but only by HIM and through whoever HE chooses to use.
There is no further need for argument.

Cheers.

2buff:

And as for the "no such thing in the bible". Here, is one such accounts of God doing this work.
You know you can find a whole lot of things in the bible if you simply just open it.

MATTHEW 15

30. And great multitudes came unto him, having with them
those that were lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others,
and cast them down at Jesus' feet; and he healed them:
31. Insomuch that the multitude wondered,
when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be whole,
the lame to walk, and the blind to see:
and they Glorified the God of Israel.

Or were you looking for the exact word "amputee"?  
I suppose you should also look for the word "stethoscope" in the bible.

I see Jesus not apostles

kandiikane:

I see Jesus not apostles

John 14:12 Jesus says
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.


Matt 21:21 Jesus says:
I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done.

Here's a hint: faith is much more than just "willpower".

@dare2think
I saw the Derren Brown video - very sad indeed.

@2Buff
You guys are so predictable, in the face of truth and facts you run away.Where are the 'before and after' pics ?.

^^ right. so I'm supposed to start running helter skelter looking for pics for you that I saw years ago huh?
If you don't believe in what God can do, that is your prerogative. Certainly not my issue

2buff:

^^ I am not omniscient. I only see what is in front of my eyes and the world is a big place.
So if you are not objecting God's power, then what is the point of wanting to whether if I have "seen it physically"?

As you can see the in the bible excerpt I posted, this is one of such examples in the bible of God healing the amputated.
If it was done then, it can be done today, but only by HIM and through whoever HE chooses to use.
There is no further need for argument.

Cheers.

Seems you don't understand my standing on this issue, so i'll try to explain.  The contention of this debate is with regards to fraudulent men. Whilst I believe in God's powers, I dont believe in just anybody that calls his name. Read about the lifestyle of Jesus who perfomed miracles, then take a look at the Men that purports to perfom miracles today, do they have any similarities?

Nobody can be like Jesus but we are meant to follow his teachings. Why then do these men that perfom miracles live in luxury that the average member of the church can only dream of?

Till now these men of God cannot verify one single case of miracle for the world to see. Jesus performed miracles in front of strangers, they only perform theirs for TV in the midst of fanatic congregation. That is what i object to.


So 2buff, is it possible to see the b4 and after pics of the miracle you saw?

@2buff

These prosperity frauds go on stage and say how they healed cancer, athritis etc (invisble conditions for which proof is hard to obtain) - and you think if they had really restored lost limbs they would not have shouted from the rooftops, come on think a bit!

By the way you cannot show any pictures because they do not exist or they were fake.

Like a nairalander said weeks ago : "THE DAY RELIGIOUS PEOPLE START MAKING USE OF THEIR BRAINS WHEN ADDRESSING RELIGIOUS MATTERS, THAT WOULD BE THE DAY RELIGION CEASES TO EXIST! ! !". Look at someone (2buff) who claims there is credible evidence from "trusted sources" and in the same vein, he HASN'T seen the evidence. It's unverified but he believes in it's credibility because of his "trusted sources". I wonder how the world economies would survive if people went into businesses with this kind of deranged-naive-irrational mindset. Na wa 4 d pipo.

2buff, I do not think you know where exactly in the bible the apostles performed miracles but I did say ACTS.


The apostles did "heal" but to unbelievers and then they will preach to them.

They were not held in auditoriums, they did not expect people to drop or the floor and writhe in ecstasy  nor did they expect them to clap and jump or pay them huge amounts of money.

If you are a believer and you have faith why do you need someone to heal you when Jesus said whosoever has faith in him can do greater things than him and do what he has been doing?

dare2think:

Seems you don't understand my standing on this issue, so i'll try to explain.  The contention of this debate is with regards to fraudulent men. Whilst I believe in God's powers, I dont believe in just anybody that calls his name. Read about the lifestyle of Jesus who perfomed miracles, then take a look at the Men that purports to perfom miracles today, do they have any similarities?

Nobody can be like Jesus but we are meant to follow his teachings. Why then do these men that perfom miracles live in luxury that the average member of the church can only dream of?

Till now these men of God cannot verify one single case of miracle for the world to see. Jesus performed miracles in front of strangers, they only perform theirs for TV in the midst of fanatic congregation. That is what i object to.


So 2buff, is it possible to see the b4 and after pics of the miracle you saw?

hey man,  I see your point.
I don't think I can get any pics. These are things one sees and forgets where he saw them but internally takes from it that which matters.
I'm sure you can get other instances such as these if you scout out the nearest serious missionary team who are in the front-lines of the battle.

But I do understand your view. I do question the need for a 3rd or 4th jet when that purchasing money (and the associated maintainance fees) could be sown into other things that would naturally take higher priority in God's heart. There is much going on today and Christ predicted this. But let us be careful not to fall into out-right slander and judgement of others. God frowns on this as well.