maybe because the Southern coast is closer to the equator, so warmer. as a result the chief on d riight is darker and pinched luking/thinner possibly due to slight dehydration over d ages.

Before arab admixture most berbers where discribed as "black as night" abiet with semetic features. This is debated of course.

Pagan Those black fezzan ppl you see in libya are Touregs. Everyone thought they were african mercenaries.

maybe because the Southern coast is closer to the equator, so warmer. as a result the chief on d riight is darker and pinched luking/thinner possibly due to slight dehydration over d ages

the distinctions, imo between berbers and tuaregs may be based on the level of negroid admixture in both groups.

if you consider fulani also [more southernly], it adds up.

of course i could be wrong.

many berbers [or is it north africans] seriously dislike blacks btw.

i just checked a website with some north african posters and one of them kept saying they just want blacks to leave them alone.


sheesh, na wa oh.

^^^ leave them alone? how

Anyway those berber ppl in Mauritania still try and keep black slaves. haratin

I MA BERBER LIVING WITH BERBERS SO I WOULD KNOW I THINK THOSE BLACK PEOPLE SHOULD LEAVE US ALONE. YOU SHOULD KNOW A LOT OF NORTH AFRICANS DIS LIKE BLACK PEOPLE 
BECAUSE OUR HISTORY WE USED LOTS OF BLACK SLAVES COM FROM SOUTH SAHARA.

WE ARE NOT BLCK ARE YOU CRAZY I AM NORT AFRICAN AND I CAN TELL YOU MANY PEOLE THINK IM COME FROM SPAIN OR GREECE WE LOOK VERY MEDITREAN AND NOT SOMTHIONG LIKE BLACK.I DIS LIEK THOSE PEOPLE HOW TALK ABOUT US BERBERS WE BERSBERS SE OUR SELF WHITE OUR VERY LICHT SKIND FAR FROM BLACK LEAVE US THE bleep ALONE.

I AM NORTH AFRICAN YOU PEOPLE SHOULD ACCEPT THAT WE ARE DIFFERENT THAN THE REST OF AFRICA ARE YOU CRAZY CALLING US BLACK WE LOOK LIKE THE RES T OF THE MEDITREAN PEOPLE THATS OUR CARTEGORY.SO AAL THE PEOLE TALKIN ABOUT US BACK UP MIND YOUR OWN HISTORY WE PEOPLE IN NORTH AFRICA WOULD SPEAT ON YOUR FACE

http://theanthroblogogist.50webs.com/life/an_example_of_black_berbers.html


dont know who called them black cos i certainly never do.

post above is a general one not specifically directed at any particular poster, but simply intended as a response to the thread.

thanks.

^^ lol, it was the medival Europeans. The word 'moor' means black/dark skinned or something like that.
Europeans also drew them as black.

But anyway no ones saying modern moors are black . . . So they can chill haha.

^^^Hey have ever read "Heart of Darkness" by Joseph Conrad?

nah, only and exerpt were the main character is talking about getting stuck in some river in the congo and getting sorrounded by charcol black people and they were all wild and animalistic and stuff. . .

lol everyone says its a good book though. did you like it?

<Quote> Gumel was part of Hausa-Bakwai even b4 dem Fulani came.</quote>

Pagan, in your successive responses to clarify raised issues, I notice you commit more blunders.

Fulani created the seven Hausa states popularly called Hausa-Bakwai.

Hausas are the land owners, not Fulani. Fulani owns the dynasties and the blood line sitting in the thrones.


Gumel may have existed as an ancient province with a native dynasty but when the Fulanis came that dynasty was erased to give way to an Emirate of the seven Hausa states.

Gumel could have existed as an independent monarch with a different name but there is no way Gumel could have existed as a "Hausa-Bakwai" before Fodio.

pleep:

nah, only and exerpt were the main character is talking about getting stuck in some river in the congo and getting sorrounded by charcol black people and they were all wild and animalistic and stuff. . .

lol everyone says its a good book though. did you like it?

Yea I like it! Good book kind of boring but very educational. The whole river, charcoal black peopel thing would p!ss you off though. I read that book and "The things fall apart" by chinue achebe about the same time. That is when I learned about NIgeria. LOl

Yea, I guess i should read it, it would be pretty eductional, and I like to read anything & everything about Africa nowadays haha.

Man things fall apart was an awesome book, one of my favorites. It's about time I read it again Actually
was it required at ur school?

Tuareg r actually white/wheatish complextioned lyk d 3rd pic above. but sum eventually tan/become black.

these are just some of teh colors of tuareg. there are jet black tuareg too. the white ones are from a result of mixing with the nothern populations. the white berbers are berberized people made up of afranja, vandals, goths, romans, and greeks. this is y the berber guy in the blog said that they resemble spaniards and other meds. i lived in morocco and have peoples back there. I cant speak for every group but being berber in morocco is not a real big deal like it is portrayed in  the western countries. most of the berber activist are from europe and are paid by france. tuareg are not even considered berber by the more northern populations. the tuareg of mali do not claim berber identification look:
link

The Tuaregs
The Tuaregs are nomadic people and desert dwellers. The tuareg are either Messufa, Lamtuna, or Judaala, they traced their ancestry back to the Sanhaja. The Sanhaja trace their lineage back to the Himyar who are people of Southern Arabia. They, however, lived among the Berbers before crossing the Sahara and settling in West Africa. They are the founders of the city of Timbuktu. They contributed scholarly and commercially to the legacy of Timbuktu. Today, the tuareg live in Mali and Niger.

The Fulani
The Fulani are nomadic people. They are well-known for their herds of cattle. They are astute merchants and excellent Islamic scholars. The Fulani, the Tuareg and Arabs have been instrumental in spreading Islam in West Africa. They are nation builders and ruled over the Futa Jallon and Futa Tora. Under the leadership of Shayk Ahmadu, they formed the caliphate of Massina. In the 18th century, the famous fulani scholar and warrior Uthman Dan Fudio founded the Sokoto caliphate in northern Nigeria. The fulani produced most of the eminent scholars of Jenne and Massina. According to the manuscript number 43 of Ahmed Baba Center in Timbuktu, the fulani trace their lineage back to the Koraysh of Mecca through Oqba ibn Yasir who married a fulani princess of Futa Toro by the name of Madeumaa. From this marriage she had four boys. They are the ancestors of the Fulani tribes: these are the Diallo, Dicko, Sangare, Balde' or Ba, Barry and Diakite. Today, the Fulani are mainly in West Africa.

songhai
The Tarikh Al-Fattash says:

"The grandfather of Sughai (Songhai), the grandfather of Wakare (Mandingo), and the grandfather of the Wankara (Mandingo also) were brothers. Their father was a king from the Yemen whose name was Taras (Baras) the son of Haroun.


A man from the known arabs of mali from the kounta tribe. the same tribe to whom kunta kinte is related

Cheikh Bouh Mouhamed Kounta of the kounta lineage

pleep:

Yea, I guess i should read it, it would be pretty eductional, and I like to read anything & everything about Africa nowadays haha.

Man things fall apart was an awesome book, one of my favorites. It's about time I read it again Actually
was it required at your school?

It wasn't really required but I chose to read it for this College English course I was taking at the time. It is a great book, one of my favorites after Animal Farm ofcourse. "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others". Lol Kills me everytime I hear it.

Ahh, I haven't read animal farm either I'm supposed to be good at English/Lit but your making me feel dumb! Haha

Lol I am a bookoholic! I once read Harry Potter and the deathly hollows in just one day. I totally recomend Animal farm, 1984, and Sidartha. All great books if you hadn't read them already. Ps let me know any good African Lit books, I would love to read them.

Haha I used to read all the time before highschool, then I just stopped for some reason 
all those books you mentioned ( exept happy potter of course) are dystopian type stories right? Can't belive I haven't read them yet because I normally love that stuff. I thought "Brave new world" was really cool.

One interesting Nigerian book I read a while ago is "purple hibiscus" it's about this untra-religious Igbo man who alienates his family and abandons his pagan dad. 

I can't belive you read The last harry potter in 1 day lol.  impressive

Yeah they are! Somehow I am very interested in them aswell. Thanks I read the whole thing in one day, it was a stormy night and my electricity went out, so I used my cell light to finish reading. Lol kind of sad. I just remembered a great book. If you haven't read it yet, you should totally read A Lesson before dying. THat is such an amazing book. Very sad, but totally worth it.

african1:

It wasn't really required but I chose to read it for this College English course I was taking at the time. It is a great book, one of my favorites after Animal Farm ofcourse.  "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others". Lol Kills me everytime I hear it.

hehe. 
ive read it. funny how the pigs in the end r no different from the humans they so despised. 

Negro_Ntns:

<Quote> Gumel was part of Hausa-Bakwai even b4 dem Fulani came.</quote>

Pagan, in your successive responses to clarify raised issues, I notice you commit more blunders.

Fulani created the seven Hausa states popularly called Hausa-Bakwai.

Hausas are the land owners, not Fulani. Fulani owns the dynasties and the blood line sitting in the thrones.


Gumel may have existed as an ancient province with a native dynasty but when the Fulanis came that dynasty was erased to give way to an Emirate of the seven Hausa states.

Gumel could have existed as an independent monarch with a different name but there is no way Gumel could have  existed as a "Hausa-Bakwai" before Fodio.

ARE U FRIGGIN STU.PID OR WAT?   

Fulani just invaded Hausaland about 200 yrs bak in the 1800s. how in the name of the devils red **** can the Fulani have created states that already existed700-800 yrs before their arrival!!!!!!

ARE THEY MAGICIANS that they can go bak in time!!!  wat nonsense.

Hausa states lyk Rano, Katsin, Biram, Zazau, etc., have existed since the 1000 ADs. they were only vanquished in the early 1800s by them Fulani invaders. 

and i didnt say Gumel was an ""independant"" state in Hausa-Bakwai. it was just one of the cities in Hausa-Bakwai, so plz dont change my words. 

عبدالكريم:

these are just some of teh colors of tuareg. there are jet black tuareg too. the white ones are from a result of mixing with the nothern populations. the white berbers are berberized people made up of afranja, vandals, goths, romans, and greeks. this is y the berber guy in the blog said that they resemble spaniards and other meds. i lived in morocco and have peoples back there. I cant speak for every group but being berber in morocco is not a real big deal like it is portrayed in  the western countries. most of the berber activist are from europe and are paid by france. tuareg are not even considered berber by the more northern populations. the tuareg of mali do not claim berber identification look:
The Tarikh Al-Fattash says:

"The grandfather of Sughai (Songhai), the grandfather of Wakare (Mandingo), and the grandfather of the Wankara (Mandingo also) were brothers. Their father was a king from the Yemen whose name was Taras (Baras) the son of Haroun.

so if white berbers are mixed with romans, goths, etc., then dont even the black berbers should be mixed with the africans, etc. 

NO. thats wrong. The Berber are a different race of people. i think their colors vary because of the pressures of climate and lifestyle over the centuries.


AND FOR HEAVENS SAKE PLZ DONT TALK NONSENSE!!!!!!!!!!  Songhai are not arab and Mandingo are not arab!!!!!!! Mandingo are Mande ppls and are related to Bambara, kahasassonke, etc. so please dont twist facts. AND  there is considerable evidence of Mande settlements in the Sahara dating bak to 700 BC - 2000 BC. and Habib Koite is one of my favourite singers, and if u call him arab, i will break your arab nose. 

Lol yea! it is a messed up world. I would have said more, but I don't wanna ruin it for pleep incase he wants to read it.

@IG, and if u have come here to insult me or prove me wrong, plz start your own thread elsewhere. This thread is for the sole discussion of ancient pre-islamic Fulani culture.

No, @PAGAN, I am not here to insult you. In fact you are the one that have been throwing insults around. I just noticed that some of your assertions are wrong, so I am trying to correct your mistakes.

@tpia@, Tuareg r actually white/wheatish complextioned lyk d 3rd pic above. but sum eventually tan/become black.

Actually true Touaregs are blacks. The name Touaregs is derived from the Arabic term Tawariq. They are also called Mulathemin and are the inhabitants of the Sahara. As posted by عبدالكريم White Touaregs and Berbers only emerged later when light skinned people started claiming to Berbers and Touaregs. Do you know that there are two hypthesis for the origin of the word Borno. One is that it originated from "Bar-Nu"  the land of the Berbers. The Hausas call the Kanuris Bare-Bari because they know the Kanuris are Berbers.

I am surprised you don't know about Tsumburbura, and the chief priest Barbushe.
You can do some readings http://african.lss.wisc.edu/hunter/306/barbushe.htm

PAGAN  9JA:

ARE U FRIGGIN STU.PID OR WAT?   
(

@PAGAN, can we talk without insulting one another please ?

PAGAN  9JA:

AND FOR HEAVENS SAKE PLZ DONT TALK NONSENSE!!!!!!!!!!  Songhai are not arab and Mandingo are not arab!!!!!!! Mandingo are Mande ppls and are related to Bambara, kahasassonke, etc. so please dont twist facts. AND  there is considerable evidence of Mande settlements in the Sahara dating bak to 700 BC - 2000 BC. and Habib Koite is one of my favourite singers, and if u call him arab, i will break your arab nose. 

Songhai, Mandingo, Mande and Bambara all descend from the Zaghawa. They are Touaregs who originated from the middle-east.
@PAGAN, there is a very good book I will recommend for you. It is called "The People Of Africa" by Henry M. Schieffelin. It talked about the various ethnic groups found by the earliest European missionaries in Africa. Some sections of the book were papers written by those missionaries. Contrary to conventional belief, many parts of Africa were either practicing Islam or Christianity when the European invaded. There are many that are animist but they don't cover the whole of Africa as is popularly promoted.

عبدالكريم Thanks for the info. This is well known info to our elders in Borno. Another group of interest are the Baqqarah Arabs. We call them Shuwa Arab. They found in Borno in Nigeria. They are also found in Chad and Sudan. They are called Baqqara because they rear cattle (Baqarah) instead of camels.

Now @PAGAN, back to Hausa Bakwai. The following are the Hausa bakwai kingdoms
1- Daura
2- Kano
3- Katsina
4- Zazzau
5- Gobir
6- Rano
7- Biram

As you can see, Gumel is not in the Hausa bakwai. They were in Borno.
Now I know I may be a small hurdle to your pro-paganism campaign, but use facts if you want to make any impact. And one more thing, I still believe you are not Hausa. In fact all the Hausa speakers that have posted on this thread so far have agreed with me.

Be Cool

IG:

Actually true Touaregs are blacks. The name Touaregs is derived from the Arabic term Tawariq. They are also called Mulathemin and are the inhabitants of the Sahara. As posted by عبدالكريم White Touaregs and Berbers only emerged later when light skinned people started claiming to Berbers and Touaregs. Do you know that there are two hypthesis for the origin of the word Borno. One is that it originated from "Bar-Nu" the land of the Berbers. The Hausas call the Kanuris Bare-Bari because they know the Kanuris are Berbers.

I am surprised you don't know about Tsumburbura, and the chief priest Barbushe.
You can do some readings http://african.lss.wisc.edu/hunter/306/barbushe.htm

u r again confusing two different things together. the story about white berbers coming later and thta the black bereber were the originals. this is actually the same stuff you hear about the arabs were you say that the black arabs were the originals and white arabs came later. these are two different things. you confused the arabs with the Berbers. the Berbers are actually wheatish in complexion. they are not a mixed-people, apart from some who in the years of frernch-colonialism,had intermarried with french peoples.

as for Tsumburbura and Barbushe, i think this particular excerpt is taken from the Kano chronicles which were written for the Hausa peoples of Kano. In those days and even now, some Haussa households have family spirits/deities. Hausa have many Gods (1000s, even i dont some of their names) so this mightt be one of them , but if you say that Tsumburbura was the only God OR the Chief God among all ither Hausa Gods, then i refuse to accept it as valid information. Sarki Alji also known as Ubangeji, or the dark spirit is the Supreme Lord of the Hausa.

IG:

@PAGAN, can we talk without insulting one another please ?

i usually cant stand it when people jus dont talk sense.

IG:
Songhai, Mandingo, Mande and Bambara all descend from the Zaghawa. They are Touaregs who originated from the middle-east.
@PAGAN, there is a very good book I will recommend for you. It is called "The People Of Africa" by Henry M. Schieffelin. It talked about the various ethnic groups found by the earliest European missionaries in Africa. Some sections of the book were papers written by those missionaries. Contrary to conventional belief, many parts of Africa were either practicing Islam or Christianity when the European invaded. There are many that are animist but they don't cover the whole of Africa as is popularly promoted.

عبدالكريم Thanks for the info. This is well known info to our elders in Borno. Another group of interest are the Baqqarah Arabs. We call them Shuwa Arab. They found in Borno in Nigeria. They are also found in Chad and Sudan. They are called Baqqara because they rear cattle (Baqarah) instead of camels.

Now @PAGAN, back to Hausa Bakwai. The following are the Hausa bakwai kingdoms
1- Daura
2- Kano
3- Katsina
4- Zazzau
5- Gobir
6- Rano
7- Biram

As you can see, Gumel is not in the Hausa bakwai. They were in Borno.
Now I know I may be a small hurdle to your pro-paganism campaign, but use facts if you want to make any impact. And one more thing, I still believe you are not Hausa. In fact all the Hausa speakers that have posted on this thread so far have agreed with me.

Be Cool

actually most of the early books on Africa were written by missionaries, as u just said. the same was true when South America and the Phillipines were colonised by the Spaniards. but these generally tend to be biased so i find it hard to consider these books as valid.

and as u mentioned, the above states are Hausa Kingdoms. so Gumel would obviously not be mentioned because as I said, Gumel was a city within the boundaries of Hausa Bakwai.

These are the major cities of Hausa Bakwai:

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/AFRhausalandas.PNG[/img]

@PAGAN, it seems each post you make proves your lack of knowledge of Africas past. The 7 Hausa kingdoms I listed above are what constitute the Hausa bakwai. About Touaregs and Berbers, well I don't just read about them like yo do. You know almost all the ethnicities that form the Borno empire either descend from Touaregs or Berbers. And I am from one of them, guess what? We have always been black.
The map you posted is not the map of the Hausa states as you claimed. For example, Ngazargamu in the upper right area was the capital of Borno, jola which is now Yola is in the Fombina kingdom. Biu was part of a state called Yamta. Some of the towns on the map were part of Kororrofa. To cut a long story short, you don't understand the map you posted.

as i said before, most of the ppls of the former Borno Empire wer either Kanuri, Hausa, Fulani and a few shuwa arabs. u r jus talking without sense.

Interesting responses.

^^ know right? im learning quite a bit

PAGAN  9JA:

as i said before, most of the ppls of the former Borno Empire wer either Kanuri, Hausa, Fulani and a few shuwa arabs. u r jus talking without sense.

That's exactly what I am saying, the map you posted is showing much more than Hausaland. In fact most of the towns on the map are not Hausa towns. And I am going to repeat, the Hausas you find in the towns of the former Borno empire mostly became Hausa by assimilation, they are not originally Hausa. Just like your people in Gumel and the people of Hadieja.

Your argument that Gumel is within the boundaries of Hausa kingdoms is wrong. The Hausas run city states and do not form empires comprising more that a single kingdom. That's why throughout history, the Hausas have never ruled over non-Hausas. Instead they often find themselves being subjects to non-Hausas. For example before the Fulani amalgamation of the Hausa kingdoms under the Sokoto caliphate, the Hausas were at one time under the Jukuns as part of the Kororrofa empire. There was also a time when thy were under Mali. There is also ancient written evidence that shows that at some point, Hausa kingdoms as far as Katsina pay tribute to Borno.

On another note, I think the Shuwa Arabs in Borno are not few, don't forget that they have once produced a governor.

Talking about black Tuaregs and Berbers, it might interest you to know that where I come from, we regularly interact with them. They are nomadic but they come seasonally. I sometimes buy camel milk from them. They do not speak Hausa, they instead speak a dialect of Arabic.

About the Maguzawa, well, I think by the time you come back there will be very few of them left. Both Christian and Muslim evangelist are working hard in converting them. And they are succeeding.

You see Mr PAGAN, you are missing a lot by not being in Africa.

IG:

That's exactly what I am saying, the map you posted is showing much more than Hausaland. In fact most of the towns on the map are not Hausa towns. And I am going to repeat, the Hausas you find in the towns of the former Borno empire mostly became Hausa by assimilation, they are not originally Hausa. Just like your people in Gumel and the people of Hadieja.

Your argument that Gumel is within the boundaries of Hausa kingdoms is wrong. The Hausas run city states and do not form empires comprising more that a single kingdom. That's why throughout history, the Hausas have never ruled over non-Hausas. Instead they often find themselves being subjects to non-Hausas. For example before the Fulani amalgamation of the Hausa kingdoms under the Sokoto caliphate, the Hausas were at one time under the Jukuns as part of the Kororrofa empire. There was also a time when thy were under Mali. There is also ancient written evidence that shows that at some point, Hausa kingdoms as far as Katsina pay tribute to Borno.

On another note, I think the Shuwa Arabs in Borno are not few, don't forget that they have once produced a governor.

Talking about black Tuaregs and Berbers, it might interest you to know that where I come from, we regularly interact with them. They are nomadic but they come seasonally. I sometimes buy camel milk from them. They do not speak Hausa, they instead speak a dialect of Arabic.

i think u need a modern map of Hausaland. by the way, u see the red boundaries above that shows the extent of Hausaland. anyways heres a map of Hausaland(including Fulani territory):

[img]http://www.prayway.com/unreached/p_maps/279.gif
[/img]

Shuwa arabs are very few in Borno. they jus occasionally spill across d border for better grazing. d only reason they[i] once [/i]produced a governor is cuz they r almost always armed.

as for the black Tuaregs and Berbers, i think u have not really met them or have met the wrong people. The Tuareg/ Berbers dont speak arabic, they speak Berber languages or/and Tamasheq,Tamahaq, Tayart Tamajaq,Tawallammat Tamajaq , Tetserret/Shinsert/Tin Sert.  It even has its own script, Tifinagh.
by the way, do u lyk camel milk its salty bu good.

IG:

About the Maguzawa, well, I think by the time you come back there will be very few of them left. Both Christian and Muslim evangelist are working hard in converting them. And they are succeeding.

You see Mr PAGAN, you are missing a lot by not being in Africa.

true. but not entirely. many Maguzawa r currently branding themselves as muslim for namesake. i hear whenever christian missionaries approach, other muslim Hausa drive dem away. there have even been riots between the two who kip fighting over us lyk hungry dogs over a piece of meat.as a result conversion is more/less stalled on d short run, though sum hav converted. this is however dangerous for us on the long run, because dem muslims can turn onto us anytime.

thats why am here. to spread awareness n also do something myself.

Berbers do speak arabic i believe.

They're just starting to revitalize their own language.