okadaman2:


That was my point.

----------------///////--------////---------

@ekt_bear, Yes that is true, but the golden goose matters to those benefitting from the eggs, which will always be a small minority, that is why we get fierce class struggles across history, capitalism will not solve it better than communism, that was my point. Best you can do as a country is to shift the poverty overseas, but for the world as a whole no change has really occurred, people just got richer somewhere, while some new folks got poorer.


Some were more talented (luck ) than others


There is an implicit assumption in your point that poor folks are the sick and lazy ones,

They are (unlucky to be born with said traits)

I don't think it's that simple.
It is


I'm not sure there will be any noticeable change in Macro wealth distribution if everyone has the same chance and abilities, actually it will bring the world to an end quickly I think.
Nah
Methinks it will just be boring

logica:
So in your opinion, even with some people wealthier than others you don't already see classification? What do you think Upper Class, Middle Class, Lower Class refers to? You actually think capitalist states see people as equal? [b]
Yes
They do not ignore value
Unlike socialist that reward by looking at face


[/b]No where is there a clear distinction of classes than the Court of Law; in a capitalist state, justice is commensurate to how much you can pay for it. You can be very innocent, but not being able to afford a good lawyer could make you very guilty. That is not equality.

ektbear:
@okada_man: I think everyone benefits from the eggs that the top 10% lays. If a guy in the top 10% starts a business, he'll inevitably hire many folks in that bottom 90% to work for him. If his business goes under, not only does this rich man suffer, but so do all of those that he employs.

I am not saying that poor people are all sick or lazy. My point is that there is some fraction of people who no matter what you do, no matter what economic system you run, there will be some people who consume far more from society than they produce.

I'm mostly trying to debunk this idea of everyone being "equal." It isn't really true at all. The guys in the top 10%, almost everyone would want to add them to their country. Otoh, the guys at the bottom 5% are mostly burdens.

okadaman2:
Communism has never really been practiced, we never got to that stage yet, most of the countries we commonly refer to as Communist are not really communist, they were on the road there but not there yet or never got there.

People like Mao and Lenin, Stalin latched on to Karl Marx's political tool -revolution- as a means to bring about a communist classless state, but they never finished the job, they got stuck in the uncomfortable brutal stage, the inevitable struggle and anarchy before calm. We got Leninism, Maoists, Stalinists e.t.c

They never got to the calm. Maybe there is no calm

logica:
@ekt_bear,

The fact that you are caught up on the "equality" concept of Communism shows you do not understand it. I have tried to explain. Money/wealth is power, and with Capitalism, of course the wealthy will always be at the very top. And no, "there will not always be outliers in every society". That is a capitalist concept.

As I pointed out, even the leader in a Communist state has the same class as the lowest class - the peasants.

Yeah Mao was suffering like masses in presidential palace

Don't deceive yourself

But the point is, if you have peasants then it is not really a Communist state, better called a Socialist state tending towards the ideal of Communism. You should not expect to have the same rights even before the law in a Capitalist state, even if the law claims otherwise.

okadaman2:
I think capitalists are the ones thinking they have a nice fair and equal system that guarantees equity for all if you just try.

But it's true
Look at the failures
They refuse to try



@ ekt_bear, no, not everyone, very few benefit from the eggs laid.

Everyone benefits
They just think they should get more than they're worth

We get this illusion that we will all die if companies collapse and innovation will vanish in the absence of capitalism.


We will
Ask Russians Chinese Venezuelan and north Koreans


I'm not convinced at all, capitalism can encourage innovation, but you need resources to truly innovate.
Hence the word CAPITALism


[/b]Imagine how many dreams die slowly everyday without the resources to power them.[b]

Is not by dreaming dreams but by working towards them

I'm taking about dreams, innovation and inventions amongst the poor and lowly world majority with little access to the resources;


Then the dreams are worthless and not innovative


[/b]land,[b]

Land boku

capital


Yafun yafun
For the non lazy


, natural resource locked up in the developed world for their own exclusive use either by sheer force[b]
Fxn of laziness cowardice


[/b] or subtle manipulation and control.

More laziness



That is similar to the same situation during feudalism, the same situation Karl Marx was trying to solve. If the rich landowners give up control, we will all die? ~

Yes
Ask Zimbabwe and South Africa loading

[/b]No! we will have the chance to spread the resources to power innovation to more people.
[b]

Only laziness will be spread


If they die, they free up resources for me and mine, [b]
Lazy ppl will still complain no matter the resources freed


[/b]capitalism is not as wonderful as people make it out to be and it's collapse will not necessarily end the world.

logica:
One other point people don't seem to realize is, Nigeria operates at a higher level of Capitalism than even the US. Or how else do you explain a bleeding person taken to the hospital only to be allowed to bleed to death in the lobby because the family could not come up with the 500,000 deposit? That is Capitalism; it is a system closer to our cave-men ancestors. There is little or no empathy in Capitalism. And it is the same system that led to the take over of Australia, Canada, the US, New Zealand etc by the whites, while nearly wiping out the natives of those lands. That is Capitalism.

logica:
As I had pointed out, quite a number of "Capitalist" countries have free healthcare; clearly a Socialist concept, not so?

ektbear:
FWIW, I am not against the government providing some of these "free" services. I'm believe in free and mandatory primary and secondary education in Nigeria. It might be possible to have some limited healthcare plan too.

But this is pretty close to the limit of free things I think the government should provide to everyone. Almost everything else I think has to justify itself.

UyiIredia:
please o ! no communism in Nigeria. If we are this bad in a free-enterprise system I shudder to think of what'll happen in a communist-based regime.

ektbear:


What is your point? I don't think anyone here is saying all socialist ideas are bad. Some of them are good. Others can be good, in the right setting.

senbonzakurakageyoshi:
my brother, try capitalism in Nigeria and Nigeria will completely run down.
Explain
Cos our capitalists doing just fine


[/b]You seem to be looking at things from an all things being equal perspective. in Nigeria, however, things are not equal [b]
What is unequal there
Only laziness


[/b]and communism would ruin us. the thing about communism is this; in theory, it is logical but in reality it is difficult to find its succeses. communism is a product of idealism, a product of the notion of an equal world which is plain impossible. capitalism is a product of realism, the fact of an equal world, the survival of the fittest.

the fact is this. communism revolves around government. meaning that if you are planning on a succesful communist system of economy, you should at least have a transparent and altruistic government, an unknown at this moment in this country.[b]
Any country


distribution of resources and provision of key goods and services are managed by government. considering the failures of successive governments in our country, i wouldn't place such responsibility in the hands of our government. especially as our government is trying to hand over as much of its responsibilities as possible to the private sector, a clear indicator of its failures at management and distribution.

pleep:
thats facism.

. . .i wish i had made this topic "Nigerian* style communism: why not" because i think people are misunderstanding what i'm trying to get at.

[size=5pt]*like Chinese communism, or cuban communism. a liberal flexible interpretation that fits a particular society.[/size]

logica:
Actually a bit more than that. Indeed your ignorance is not new, since you cannot tell the difference between Communism and Fascism. Communism, Fascism, Anarchism, Socialism. . .do you even know the difference?

Have so many so called "Communist" states been evil? No doubt. But they have not been any more evil than the bastions of "Capitalism" like the United States; they have only invested less in a propaganda machine (which is still reverberating and mouthed by the likes of you long after the Cold War).

pleep:
Logica is right, you have been brainwashed. just like so many other people who recieved western education.

does it not occur to you that the U.S and NATO had national security interests in portraying communism in the worst possible light?

They portrayed it or it was actually worse?
Your political science lecturer has messed you up for life


Behind the scenes many western governments have "communist like" programs. such as french state owned companies like Areva the multinational that mines Uranium, or the American postal service.

And guess how they're faring chains DHL and FedEx




in short, western governments are willing to embrace communist principles when it benifits the population, [b]
When it benefits politicians not populace
They lose money on postal service


[/b]but will always demonize it to developing countries.

logica:
And what do you think happened in China?
Is that communism?


What do you think is going on in Scandinavian countries?
When did they start this before or after they made money?
Please do proper research


Did you even read previous posts? It seems people are not aware that what goes on in Scandinavia with all of the welfare benefits are Communist/Socialists ideals. This even applies to the UK. Don't believe the hype.

Their eye Don de clear small small



The fact is, Communism failed in the USSR because the government was particularly vicious against its own people[b]
You cannot implement communism without viciousnes
Or do you think taxis are voluntary


[/b], and they also got drawn into a competition with the USA leading to unnecessary spending on weapons and other "Super Power" toys. Massive waste.

GenBuhari:
Communism I think would suit our docile nature.
At least it obligates the government to think about the welfare of every Nigerian and not just a few elites.

pleep:
Let me say again, this is not about pure communism. Why is that when we talk about capitalism we bring up highly regulated liberal capitalism (like the U.S) but when communism is brought up we take it to the extreme?

There are no pure capitalsim nations, they have failed just like the communist ones did.

Can't fail if never tried

Remember the great depression? that was caused by pure capitalism.

100 years revolution
That was communism
100 million starved



Places where liberal comunism[b]
That is capitalism
Just as social liberalism is socialis
Grammar won't change Koko


[/b] has succeded are China, and the best example Cuba. You may think that Cuba is an awefull place but compare it to the rest of latin america the cubans live much better. The standard of living, and healthcare is better, the education and life expectancy is higher etc.

Cuba in time capsule
And all failed Latin American countries are communist



Why is China doing so much better than india? The answer is communism. India's democracy has bogged it down,
No
Communism has


[/b]While China's one party state has accelerated growth because they are able to make things happen without senseless beurocracy.
[b]
No
It was 18 capitalist farmers that catapulted china forward
Govt only allowed them when Mao died after 30 years of failure



Nigeria is an example of where capitalsim is failing,
Where
Capitalism has never failed



we need to stop senselesly coping what people are doing in the west because our circumstances are too different.

Human nature remains constant





bNIGERIA IS A RESOURCE BASED ECONOMY,
No
Nigeria is a lazy unproductive rent (oyel moni) seeking economy


[/b]most of our money comes from selling oil not the 'incentive' of the private sector, so redistrubing that wealth (not in the form of handouts) would improve the life on Nigerians thats a fact.[b]
It just encourages laziness as you can see



Once average ppl have access to money they can break the cycle of poverty and begin building bussinesses and creating jobs.

pleep:
it seems to me, that people are not debating with me, but rather debating against communism.
Are you the debate topic?
Is it not communism you said we should debate


like i said earlier[b] i[/b] am not advocating pure communism.
Is there undiluted one


Does it not occur to you guys that when stalin and lenin etc siezed private property and tried to equalize wealth, communism was in its early stages?

So we should kill millions of Nigerians to run failed experiment that has never worked

it has matured since then into what we see in China, Cuba[b]
Those are capitalist societies bros
And Cuba is not a desired destination


[/b] and some of the socialist countries. Communist ideals have been tempered with capitalism, much like capitalism in the U.S has been tempered with "communist" ideals like medicare.
The communists are improving while USA is declining
Sums it up doesn't it




i hope you know that income disparity is the best indicator of the societal health of a country. . .

so China is "criminalizing hard working achevers"

Hits not a communist state chairman


you prefer jungle justice? And you need to consider how capitalism is always abused. Think about the 1930's depression,
Lasted 3 years
Mao failed consistently for 30


the 1981 reccesion the 2007 reccesion[b]
All caused by socialist policies of giving unsustainable housing loans


[/b] the SAP that ruined the entire economy of a continent,
Corruption ruined the continent Mr Oga



the failing Euro-zone, Fiat currency, debt etc. . .

pleep:
huh, that sounds a lot like Nigeria were the lazy and unproductive are the elite who govern the country. while the hard working are demoted to street urchins.

Hahahahah
You think winning election is for lazy ppl




like i said earlier, capitalism is a system in which the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.*
No
It is a system that rewards effort not sentiment
Poor are poor cos they lazy not cos rich rich


We simply cannot afford that in Africa because they are already people on the brink of hunger[b]



then they should enter farm and stop begging. Do you guys know how many young Nigerians have ideas that can create jobs and build up this country, but are held back by lack of money?

Then they are useless ideas
Good ideas will always find capital
Capital is not always money



*[size=5pt]believe it or not this is not because rich people are somehow 'better' than poor people[/size]

shotster50:
@ Pleep and co

I am not advocating for any of the isms, but if I were given the choice, communism is definitely not possible in Nigeria, unless of course there is a major revolution to wipe the elite. Someone is asking for Nigeria to stop copying the west, What better solution do you proffer then? Capitalism has failed Nigeria,
It is capitalism that is keeping up alive Mr man
Get your facts right


and so will your beloved communism if it were to be adopted , The idea of wealth equalisation as far as Nigeria is concerned, is simply stuff dreams are made of. You and I know that baring miracle i wont happen.

pleep:
haha, thats what they said in Russia.
No, reccesions are just nature trying to correct itself.
I see you gave an indirect answer. You guys need to stop lying to yourself. Nigeria's economy is not based on anything inventive, ingenuitive or w/e The richest people in the country are usually also the dumbest. [b]

They aren't dumb
It's the poor who are dumb

[/b]And by hording all the wealth they prevent money from reaching the poor inventive people who could use that money to build bussinesses and make employment which would create a nice mixed capitalist/communist economy.

pleep:
no, im just saying that nigerian economy is not based on inventiveness, just drilling oil and selling it, ill explain how this is because of international capitalsim later.

what kind of person do you think i am? I am a entruapenure to the core, wealth redistrubution would not help me in anyway. Im just looking for things that will help Nigeria progress, That is my main concern. And i said earlier the kind of communism i'm talking about is not the sort that stifles creativity and tries to put everyone on the same level.
All communism stifles creativity


[/b]Think more China, or Cuba and less N. Korea and Russia.
[b]
China is capitalist
All the rest are shitholes




What are you trying to say here? that the poor people just need to figure out a way to make the rich people pay them? 2 things wrong with this.
1. you cant make real money through employment,
Says who?



[/b]and most Africans cant save enough money from their jobs to start a real business that takes money the rich. This because they have to pay for food etc. [b]

Again Says who
Must they marry and have children they can't cater for
Or don't you see Ibo'marrying late so they won't commit suicide

Is it by force to save?
More than 1 way To skin a cat bruh



2. There aren't enough jobs in Nigeria,
Says who


[/b]jobs are created by a middle class, [b]
As den prefer oyel money nko


[/b]who can make small businesses etc, and Nigeria barely has one. just extremely wealthy people and extremely poor people.[b]
Takes 1 guy o
Just 1





and through our capitalism system the poor get poorer and the rich get richer[b]
1.this is not capitalism (Nepa oil and land controlled by govt)
2.rich get richer, poor GET RICHER
GAP DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE POORER
more cars, phones, better housing etc than during dark ages when even king shat inside bush


[/b], communism (i'll call it socialism now) would free those poor people from poverty and turn them into a middle class that can create employment and small businesses that will power the economy.

It will just encourage more indolence 2p it always has



I want to ask you, how many of Nigeria's elites are businessmen?
Now you're talking
Why do business when they can simply share loot
This is quintessential human responseto free money
Over 100,000 elite
All rent seekers
No productive one bong them
Is it now poorly educated poor that will pick up the slack


the few that are are usually based abroad. overwhelminly Nigeria's wealthy are in politics, relatives of politicians, or involved in some other brainless activity. . .

Rgp92:
If the USA and the other western country drops capitalism, i bet Nigeria will too.
And we will get same result
Capitalism works
Communism doesn't, hasn't, neve'NT


It is very hard to change the mindset of many Nigerians,

Not really
Just no good leaders
Show Nigerians and they will follow you
1 pastor now many pastors
1 mmm many magas
1 okada enough nuisance
Go abroad and build house embassy on lockdown
And so on and so forth

most of them looks up to USA and Will do anything they do Anyway, like someone already said here, let make our own economic/political system. We should stop importing this Europeans system, it ain't working in Africa.

pleep:
I want to open everyones eyes to the hidden truth about our position in the world.

The international economy is based on capitalist principles, and the world is a macrocosm of what occurs in a capitalist nation. Capitalism is like a pyramid, the only way it can work is if the base is larger than the top. The people at the base do the grunt work, they are the factory workers, seamstresses etc, they do physically demanding work that does not require much education and skills, this is the lower class.
Laziness
Their choice
Their consequences

[/b]The middle class is the management, while the top of the pyramid is the elites, investment bankers, stock brokers and CEO's, who use[b]

They buy not use
Free will
No enforcement like I'm communism

the work of the poor to create products to sell back to them for profit.
They buy willingly what they could not produce (brain work) aka laziness



Inevitably the divide between the richer and poorer gets wider (this is a proven fact)


due to more laziness





This same principle applies to nations, the bottom of the Pyramid is Africa and the 3rd world countries, who mindlessly export raw materials. Economic policy that does not require much thought or education,

Whose fault
You no go school?

[/b]and is physically demanding on the environment. While the top is japan, America and Europe, who use those raw materials to create products to sell back to Africa for a profit. At the end of the day there is a net loss for Africa,[b]
Net exchange not loss
We get iPhone and cars in Return
Free trade


and gain for the north. Slowly the divide between the wealthy nations and the 3rd world widens.

in 1980 Africa was at 10% below the poverty line now it is at 80 %.

In this capitalist system the continued wealth of  Europe and America depends on the continued poverty of the rest of humanity, because the base must be bigger than the top.
Not necessarily but even so
It can be isosceles triangle or obtuse
Steep or shallow curves
But laziness makes it steep


The emergance of China to to top of the pyramid means even more problems for Africa, because the base must widen. Expect to see starvation in Nigeria 20 years from now.
Only laziness can cause starvation not capitalism
Usually accompanying communism



Do you guys think i would go on an American forum and try to convince them that they should turn socialist? [b]
O boy
It's very popular now with leftists idealists who don't want to work


[/b]Never, because they actually benefit from capitalism. But to hear Africans supporting capitalism is like hearing a poor hungry sweatshop worker payed 2$ an hour, praising the unregulated capitalist economy of the united states in the late 19 century.

kodewrita:


the bolded is the only problem. Create industries to use those and its mostly solved. That is what we should focus on not upturning the whole system. SUch a change will last a decade at least of political upheaval and strife. Whats the point of that?

Bawss1:
Look at all these closet communists, didn't know we had them hiding in our mist all this while.

Its amazing to see how you guys are trying to make a case for a system that is fundamentally flawed. And what is even more amazing is that you refuse to acknowledge that ALL countries that have attempted this system have either abandoned it or are dying under it's dross - if they haven't modified it completely.

DOWN WITH THE COMMUNISTS!!!!

pleep:
You guys r rediculous. Ive said a million times I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT PURE COMMUNISM, the sort that erases religion, Seizes property and stifles creativity.

Its easy to argue against that of course, but not so easy to argue against the truth.