ricadelide:

Let me try to answer for pilgrim because i'm sure if she replies she'd still be accused of 'attacking' people.

@ricadelide,

You precisely captured the essence of what would have been my reply to Atam-Man's. It's obvious that the hues and cries that have become the trademark of our friends are an index to the fact that they would rather not discuss "Christianity" meaningfully, merely for the sake of keeping traditions of "Roman Catholicism". All the same, many thanks for sharing those points - and I'll try and take dear Atam on a small excursion of some his befuddlements.

Cheers.

@Atam-Man,

From the onset, it was clear that you weren't trying to be objective - and I'd not have to hold your neck down to any persuasions otherwise. However, here are a few things that you should carefully reflect on, whether or not you hold me in whatever assumptions may placate your uncertainties.

Atam-Man:

I thought you said you were ready for a truce ! Why are you so bent on 'converting' a people who already believe in God? Are there no non-Christians around you? What is this obsession with the Catholicism? Leave these people alone to do what they want to do with their topic on this forum. BTW,

Lol. . . my dear friend, I'm not "bent on" converting a people who've made up their minds to close the Bible and ignore its teachings while crying out that they are 'Christians'. Do they "already believe in God"? Lol. . . so did the Jews at the time of Jesus' earthly ministry who cried out: "we have one Father, even God" (John 8:41). These are the same people who "already believed in God", and for all that, they were the ones to whom God first sent His divine Son to seek them back to Himself - (Matt. 15:24 & Acts 3:26).

It does not matter that you present the same cosmetic apologetic that Catholics "already believe in God". What is the basic point here is that those who make such claims should be able to demonstrate that they worship God in spirit and in truth - the very same message that Jesus preached to those who "already believed in God" (cf. John 4:23 & 24). It is either God's WORD is true; or Catholicism in its many traditions should be regarded as prevailing above the WORD of God.

This is the core concern of these discussions. Indeed, Catholics 'already believe in God' - but they've been the very ones who have it on record that they no longer swear by the truth of the Bible. That being the case, it should no longer surprise anyone that Catholic reactions on the Forum have been quite aversive to any discussion that takes us back to the Bible.

The message of the Bible is clear: 'believing in God' is an empty claim until we seek God "in spirit and in truth" - and that is what we should rather be concerned with here, than the tribal loyalties to a particular tradition - Catholic or Protestant.

@Atam-Man,

Atam-Man:

you remind me of the things I have come to dislike about some of those who claim to be Christians. You definitely give me reasons to compare you, once again, to the Taliban, abeg cool down.

Many thanks again for being "mild" - it's a pity that I haven't read you to have risen above that badge.

Atam-Man:

Why are you so belligerent about the things of God?

Where did you read me as being "belligerent" about the things of God? Since when did discussing Catholicism translate into being "belligerent" about the things of God?

Atam-Man:

Remember what Gamaliel told his colleagues in the Sanhedrin cf: Acts 34ff? Please show some trust in this your God, leave the Catholics to him to sort out. Haba, are you God's avenging angel?

First, your quote of Acts 34 no dey Bible - we have only 28 chapters in the book of Acts. Second, "Catholicism" is not my God and you can't equate my discussions here as being a mistrust in God. Third, the Catholics did not wait for God to sort out non-Catholics before they sent them to their untimely graves.

Atam-Man:

@All Catholics here
There is every chance Pilgrim.1 is nothing but a religion-minded wind-up merchant who is out to get you guys worked up. Why not learn to ignore her rantings and go ahead with whatever you guys want to do here?

Thank you again for being the agent-provocateur who could so well describe pilgrim.1 precisely as Catholics have always wanted to view her. No worries - I just dey kampé.

Atam,

Atam-Man:

@ricadelide
Bring it on!
You sign in here complaining about posts that dare to suggest that you should rein in your attitude , yet you are quick to notice the non-sequiturs in another person's posts.
One of the main planks of public foras is the readiness to see the wisdom in the positions of those you are engaging with, I'd dare to say that I am yet to find nuggets of wisdom in your last post or indeed in the bits previously posted by you that I have been able to read.

Do you not see the fallacies in your reposte? How have you demonstrated a line of wisdom in your entries to this thread after having artfully ducked the call to glance at the posts of your Catholic plaudits? You made the case of ignoring your percieved "rants" in another's posts; but you can't hold yourself back from sporting for a fracas with your opening paragraph "Bring it on!" Lol. . . na wa for you.

Atam-Man:

Please read the following lines carefully and prayerfully, before you choose to shoot off another vitriolic reply.

Atam, please save the hypocrisies. If there's anyone who've been vitriolic here and uncivil, you should go through the threads and observe what your Catholic brethren have posted. That non-Catholics have tried to respond to call our interests back to the Bible does not suggest "vitriol", unless you deliberately would like to measure that call by the Catholic anathema to reading the Bible.

Atam-Man:

About the Pope, does your idea of Love and peacefull co-existence suggest that you should visit the alleged iniquities (in your eyes) of the Pope on the other Catholics on this board? Are you sure you really care about Christ? Is this the attitude Christ would have displayed? Remember the root of the word "Christian"? It was used to describe those who were Christ-like, please why are you reducing the power of that word by this belligerent attitude?

Lol. . . first, when you measure others by the slur of the "Taliban", you must have been displaying the zenith of being "Christ-like", not so?

Second, when the religious people authorities of Jesus' earthly ministry sought to assail the disciples with their accusations, what was Jesus' reaction? Please turn to Matt. 23:4, and as you try to sort yourself out on that, go down and start reading from verse 13 to 39 on Jesus' reaction to religious hypocrisy.

You haven't presented anything new here than the usual Catholic "are you sure you really care about Christ"! Is it a Christ-like disposition to muzzle others who dare discuss publicly-affecting issues on Christianity?

Atam,

Atam-Man:

On another note, why this impish joy in the fact that some people are going to burn in Hell? On the contrary, why not rejoice in your own salvation and continually pray for the salvation of those you contrive to see as unredeemed?

You should actually be on your knees praying for lost souls, if you care much more than the fallacies you're campaigning here for. Further, you certainly don't want to keep this pretence about looking the other way from the 'impish joy' expressed by Catholic Popes and Bishops who damned souls to Hell, would you?

Atam-Man:

Lest I forget, it remains my view that some of you the 'so-called Christians' make me and many others want to welcome the Taliban with open arms, their notoriety could pale into insignificance in the face of what your type carry around.

Hehe. . . Dear Atam, we're not surprised to read your desire to welcome the 'Taliban' with open arms. You have simply expressed the same age-old Catholic lust of trying to use the Arabs to wipe out non-Catholics! Do you need reminding as to who actually was Muhammad's religious tutor - a Roman Catholic monk? Was there no connection between Muhammad and Roman Catholics?

Atam-Man:

Finally, move an inch out of what your comfort zone and you would come see that all of us who call ourselves Christian should be less strident in face of the age of the some of the non-Christian Religions. Some of these existed at least 2 to 5 thousand years before the coming of Christ? Another point you might want to reflect on is the fact that Christianity as a Religion does predate the Bible that we shall be reading in Church today.

And therefore, has 'Christianity' become the prodigal child of Roman Catholicism simply because the Vatican no longer adheres to Biblical truth? Atam, you're simply boxing the air with clenched fists. If Catholicism has nothing to offer anyone anymore from God's WORD, a frantic appeal to "non-Christian Religions" does not well substitute for Biblical integrity either.

Enjoy your Sunday.

@pilgrim.1 and ricadelide
I am not going to waste my time looking at every line and word in your superfluous replies, the spate of replies is a sign that for you religion or indeed any discussion about religion tantamount to war. All we have said is in public domain, I leave judgement to all who come to this forum.
Before I leave you alone, let me put some facts straight.
I have not declared myself to be Catholic, yet you have called one because I dared to call your to order and attempted to make you think/write reasonably. Why this 'them and us' attitude? So anyone who does not support your views is Catholic? I guess the Catholics would be on my case as well in a few hours, they could call me anything for daring to remind them that Karl Barth, the German Lutheran theologian, remains one of the key thinkers in Comtemporary Catholic academic work on Original Sin!
About other religions, how can you claim not to know that Christianity is a really young religion when compared to some of the Oriental religions or indeed to that of the people we wrongly[read ignorantly and arrogantly] call pagans in our villages and local communities? I guess you missed that point in your bid to tell me the much you know about the history of the Christian faith that I happen to share with you? Why did I refer you to history? It was to allow you put everything about religion within a context, I can tell from your replies that it was wasted on you.
Lastly, I still stand on the points made in my earlier posts; are you sure your attitude is what is expected of a Christian in a pluralistic world? Why are you bent on trying to help God stoke the flames of Hell, why not leave him to do his thing? Gamaliel's position in Acts 34 was meant to nudge you into seeing the beauty of a non-belligerent attitude to your enemies, i.e the Catholics, but again you missed the whole point? Rather, you came at me armed with biblical quotes, which leads to the last thing I shall be saying to you and every Christian here: the Bible and the Christian religion, which is older? Before you call me names, remember that I am a Christian like you, my aim is to get you to think, study and pray like a thinking being ought to.

@Atam-Man,

Atam-Man:

@pilgrim.1 and ricadelide
I am not going to waste my time looking at every line and word in your superfluous replies,

You already know you're wasting your time by resurfacing with your shadow boxing.

Atam-Man:

the spate of replies is a sign that for you religion or indeed any discussion about religion tantamount to war.

A very cheap method of twisting your fallacies into other people's rejoinders. Only problem is that you end up exposing your trademark hypocrisy. I've asked you to be objective; and if you fail to heed that call, you make a sorrier case for your caterwauls by adding duplicity on top of it all.

Atam-Man:

All we have said is in public domain, I leave judgement to all who come to this forum.

No wahala - they should also visit the bedevilled language of your Catholic brethren whose posts you have said nothing thereto.

Atam-Man:

Before I leave you alone, let me put some facts straight.
I have not declared myself to be Catholic, yet you have called one because I dared to call your to order and attempted to make you think/write reasonably.

Sorry, my bad. An objective reader and contributor would not play so slyly as to accuse others of being 'Taliban' while looking the other way and pretending the Catholics in this thread have been quite saintly. Where did I declare myself to be a "Taliban" before you alleged I was one, simply because I tried to call your attention to your pretences? No be today I begin read una, well done.

Atam-Man:

Why this 'them and us' attitude?

This is simply a laugh! Atam, are you such a stranger to truth and reality? How many times have I asked that we discuss as "Christians" instead of the usual 'Catholic vs Protestant' stance of your Catholic plaudits here? You didn't see "them" to preach your oration to; but the very person who has raised a concern about your complaints is the one you would quickly allege is on a war path!

Atam-Man:

So anyone who does not support your views is Catholic? I guess the Catholics would be on my case as well in a few hours, they could call me anything for daring to remind them that Karl Barth, the German Lutheran theologian, remains one of the key thinkers in Comtemporary Catholic academic work on Original Sin!

And anyone who is not taken in by your lack of objectiveity translates into being a "Taliban", not so?

Atam-Man:

About other religions, how can you claim not to know that Christianity is a really young religion when compared to some of the Oriental religions or indeed to that of the people we wrongly[read ignorantly and arrogantly] call pagans in our villages and local communities?

Where did I "claim" the hogwash you posted above? You're trying ever so desperately to read issues into my rejoinders to score a cheap applause. Lol. . . the "ignorance" and "arrogance" are yours, not mine.

@Atam-Man,

Atam-Man:

I guess you missed that point in your bid to tell me the much you know about the history of the Christian faith that I happen to share with you? Why did I refer you to history?

Where did I "miss" what you're so confused about here? And for your info, I don't "share" the bloody stains of Catholicism with you, and you can't solicit that by proxy.

Atam-Man:

It was to allow you put everything about religion within a context, I can tell from your replies that it was wasted on you.

Nope; rather you severally missed the 'context' you're pleading for by looking the other way and refusing to be objective in your rejoinders.

Atam-Man:

Lastly, I still stand on the points made in my earlier posts; are you sure your attitude is what is expected of a Christian in a pluralistic world? Why are you bent on trying to help God stoke the flames of Hell, why not leave him to do his thing?

You could be so prediactable! Please stand in front of a mirror and ask yourself the very same question. What have you asked that I've failed to address? Do I then take it that you again missed the gist of my rejoinders because you're happier with a cozy 'please let's ignore the Bible' of Catholic attitude?

Atam-Man:

Gamaliel's position in Acts 34 was meant to nudge you into seeing the beauty of a non-belligerent attitude to your enemies, i.e the Catholics, but again you missed the whole point?

This is why I feel so sorry for you! Please Atam, could you kindly let me know which Bible version you've quoted Acts 34 from, since our English Bibles have only 28 chapters? This is the second time I'd have to bring that to your notice and you still missed it again?

BTW, I've never held Catholics to be my "enemies" - and it's quite unfortunate you'd so hypocritically read that into my posts! If anything, my persuasion has been that we should all appreciate one another as "Christians" (rather than 'Catholic' or 'Protestant'); and I still maintain that a 'Christian' - even if Catholic - who addresses fellow Christians as "devil" has no love in his or her heart! Period. Just because Catholics never truly regard non-Catholics as Christians (ask your Pope) should not be reason enough for any Catholic to publicly address others with such bedevilled language.

Atam-Man,

Atam-Man:

Rather, you came at me armed with biblical quotes, which leads to the last thing I shall be saying to you and every Christian here: the Bible and the Christian religion, which is older?

I enjoy your comedies! You who never wanted to quote the Bible still ended up giving us Acts 34 - whereas the book of Acts has only 28 chapters! Na wa for you!

Now with regards to age between Bible and Christianity, does it ever occur to you that Christianity is based on what we read in the Bible - especially the NT? Is there any sense in your faineant question here - which is nothing more than a weak ploy to defelct the core issues being discussed here?

Atam-Man:

Before you call me names, remember that I am a Christian like you, my aim is to get you to think, study and pray like a thinking being ought to.

Thank you - I've been doing all those; and the result of my thinking, studying and parying is what I've used in discussing in this thread. Sadly, inspite of all those, I may not be a 'Christian' like you if you enjoy equating others to the 'Taliban' because you dread reading the fruit of their 'study'.

Enjoy - it's going to be another week of meaningful debate.

@Pilgrim.1
About the Acts 34 thingy, it is very clearly a typo and you know so; but for you it is another chance to attack me; go back and see what I said about your attitude to non-sequiturs [mistakes and illogicallities] in other persons' postings. You attitude to my typo vindicates my position. Remember that unlike you, I am not here to fight with you or show you up, I started out as one interested in alerting you to the dangers inherent in your attitude.
So you are worried that I compared your attitude to the Taliban's? Well, only those who hate you would hesitate to tell you that some of your posts here are unbecoming of a Christian in a pluralistic world. The Taliban did not and have not been able to agree that pluralism of ideas or religions is a given in today's world. I must admit the Taliba thingy was not said with any malice, I knew that example would get you thinking and reflecting, and you can be sure that my job would have been done when you become more temperate in your attitude to those who hold views different to yours. There is a way to talk in public foras, and you have shown repeatedly in your replies to me that I was right from the beginning when I flagged up your attitude.
About questions, yes, I put it directly to you that you have repeatedly sidestepped the primary issue I have raised with you. I ask again in case you missed it the other times, the Bible and the Christian faith, which is older? Until you are able address that question honestly and objectively, there is not a lot that would make meaning to you.
Before you start to selectively cut and paste in your reply, ask yourself how we got here. Finally, lets say the Catholics shot the first shot. Did your reply have to be of the same material as their? Haba, thought the man Jesus did away with the "eye for an eye" postulation?

Atam-Man

Just to say that your posts on this thread are about the only thing that I've read properly and that they have many wise observations and a sensibly temperate approach to Christianity.

Well done.

@Atam-Man,

Atam-Man:

@Pilgrim.1
About the Acts 34 thingy, it is very clearly a typo and you know so; but for you it is another chance to attack me; go back and see what I said about your attitude to non-sequiturs [mistakes and illogicallities] in other persons' postings.

Lol. . . I'm not here to attack anybody - and your frequent appeal to that drab is now a bit weathered. If you could make a 'typo' twice even after having been notified about it, what does that say about your superior umpire in this thread?

Atam-Man:

You attitude to my typo vindicates my position.

It only shows you have no clue what you pretend to be holding out here.

Atam-Man:

Remember that unlike you, I am not here to fight with you or show you up, I started out as one interested in alerting you to the dangers inherent in your attitude.

I haven't been trying to fight you in any way; but trying to force your misgivings into my post was quite ungentlemanly of you.

Atam-Man:

So you are worried that I compared your attitude to the Taliban's? Well, only those who hate you would hesitate to tell you that some of your posts here are unbecoming of a Christian in a pluralistic world. The Taliban did not and have not been able to agree that pluralism of ideas or religions is a given in today's world.

There again you fall flat on your on misgivings if you thought for a sec that I was worried about whatever you might term me. I only used that to demonstrate how you who pretended to be heralding a truce are the very same person who would go so far to describe others that way.

Atam-Man:

I must admit the Taliba thingy was not said with any malice, I knew that example would get you thinking and reflecting, and you can be sure that my job would have been done when you become more temperate in your attitude to those who hold views different to yours.

That was quite "mild" of you, really. Problem is that your trying to be dubious hasn't achieved anything for you personally, has it?

Atam-Man:

There is a way to talk in public foras, and you have shown repeatedly in your replies to me that I was right from the beginning when I flagged up your attitude.

Coming in a public Forum to pretend to read your misgivings into my posts where they do not exist is not the best way to hoot for your plaudits.

Atam-Man:

About questions, yes, I put it directly to you that you have repeatedly sidestepped the primary issue I have raised with you. I ask again in case you missed it the other times, the Bible and the Christian faith, which is older? Until you are able address that question honestly and objectively, there is not a lot that would make meaning to you.

Is there any need wasting scholarship on you, Atam? If you already missed it and yet keep misquoting chapters from that same Book, what then is the gist of you enquiry? If Christianity was older than the Bible (which is clearly not the case), what then are you trying to point out? That we should abandon God's WORD, yes?

Atam-Man:

Before you start to selectively cut and paste in your reply, ask yourself how we got here. Finally, lets say the Catholics shot the first shot. Did your reply have to be of the same material as their? Haba, thought the man Jesus did away with the "eye for an eye" postulation?

Lol. . . I haven't even used the "eye-to-eye" response. Atam, if you had any clue to be objective at all, you would address issues and not try to force your duplicities into my posts. I've dealt with such pretences in the past, and you're simply a late comer with nothing new. Is it too hard for you to discuss the core concerns of this thread? And why has it become anathema for you to address the bedevilled language of your Catholic brethren instead of pretending your own worries into my repostes? You could do far better than the cheap applause you're seeking by trying to be objective in your posts. If that is quite an expensive thing for you to handle, please be my guest and keep up the trade.

Cheers.

soldee:

Pray for us sinners,

Now, and at the hour of our death, Amen

Jesus says: "Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full." (John 16:24)

Jesus Himself is our Advocate who prays to the Father on our behalf. It is interesting that in His prayer for in John 17, He made no mention of Mary. Check it out for yourself; and see particularly this:

John 17:20 & 24

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word . . .
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may
behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Jesus prayed for "them also which shall believe" - that's us Christians today. Notice that Mary was nowhere mentioned to be praying for us. Jesus is the One who intercedes for us.

My Dear Catholics, did you remember to go through todays readings? I will endevour to post the chapters for the readings everyday with accompanying reflection. For today:

First Reading
Ez 1:1-6

In the first year of Cyrus, king of Persia,
in order to fulfill the word of the LORD spoken by Jeremiah,
the LORD inspired King Cyrus of Persia
to issue this proclamation throughout his kingdom,
both by word of mouth and in writing:
“Thus says Cyrus, king of Persia:
‘All the kingdoms of the earth
the LORD, the God of heaven, has given to me,
and he has also charged me to build him a house in Jerusalem,
which is in Judah.
Therefore, whoever among you belongs to any part of his people,
let him go up, and may his God be with him!
Let everyone who has survived, in whatever place he may have dwelt,
be assisted by the people of that place
with silver, gold, goods, and cattle,
together with free-will offerings
for the house of God in Jerusalem.’”

Then the family heads of Judah and Benjamin
and the priests and Levites–
everyone, that is, whom God had inspired to do so–
prepared to go up to build the house of the LORD in Jerusalem.
All their neighbors gave them help in every way,
with silver, gold, goods, and cattle,
and with many precious gifts
besides all their free-will offerings.

Responsorial Psalm
Ps 126:1b-2ab, 2cd-3, 4-5, 6

R. (3) The Lord has done marvels for us.

When the LORD brought back the captives of Zion,
we were like men dreaming.
Then our mouth was filled with laughter,
and our tongue with rejoicing.R.

Then they said among the nations,
“The LORD has done great things for them.”
The LORD has done great things for us;
we are glad indeed.R.

Restore our fortunes, O LORD,
like the torrents in the southern desert.
Those that sow in tears
shall reap rejoicing.R.

Although they go forth weeping,
carrying the seed to be sown,
They shall come back rejoicing,
carrying their sheaves.R.

Gospel
Lk 8:16-18

Jesus said to the crowd:
“No one who lights a lamp conceals it with a vessel
or sets it under a bed;
rather, he places it on a lampstand
so that those who enter may see the light.
For there is nothing hidden that will not become visible,
and nothing secret that will not be known and come to light.
Take care, then, how you hear.
To anyone who has, more will be given,
and from the one who has not,
even what he seems to have will be taken away.”

Reflection
This story of Cyrus’ edict and the Jews’ response tells us that we must never give up hope—even if years pass and our prayers seem unanswered. By staying close to Jesus in prayer, we can keep cynicism and doubt at bay and become instead like those Jews who hoped against all hope and lived to see their dreams fulfilled. God will fulfill his promises, even if he uses unlikely people, unlikely events, or unlikely timing to do so.

Prayer
“Father, I cannot understand your ways. Still, I marvel at your wisdom and love. Help me to trust in you when my prayers seem unanswered. Guard me from despair and open my eyes to see you at work all around me, surrounding me with your love.”


Proudly Catholic!!
Catholic for Life!!!!!!!
Glory to Jesus, Honour to Mary!!

soldee:

By staying close to Jesus in prayer, we can keep cynicism and doubt at bay and become instead like those Jews who hoped against all hope and lived to see their dreams fulfilled.

Amen O. . . stay close to Jesus. Halleluyah!

soldee:

Prayer
“Father, I cannot understand your ways. Still, I marvel at your wisdom and love. Help me to trust in you when my prayers seem unanswered. Guard me from despair and open my eyes to see you at work all around me, surrounding me with your love.”

Amen. . in Jesus' Name!

@ Pilgrim

This morning I prayed that the day be good. When I was leaving my house, I asked my family to pray for me, that the day be good. When I got to work and was about to submit my appraisal forms, I asked my colleague with whom I share an office to pray for me, that my appraisal result in promotion. i just spoke to my mum, she asked if I was doing ok and I said "yes o, I hope you guys are praying for me" to which she laughed out loud and said "haba, at this age thats all I do for you people now". I'm sure befor the end of this day which the Lord has granted me, I will ask someone to pray for me, one way or the other, without thinking.

But none of these prayers said on my behalf will be equal to or even as powerful as the one my Blessed Mother says for me because I have recourse to her.Not only will I continue to sing her praises but I will tell of her glories everywhere I can. All Hail the Mother of my Redeemer, a Mother Most Loving, Most Chaste, so highly favoured by God.


Proudly catholic!!
Catholic for Life!!!!!!!
Glory to Jesus, Honour to Mary!!

@soldee,

soldee:

This morning I prayed that the day be good. When I was leaving my house, I asked my family to pray for me, that the day be good. When I got to work and was about to submit my appraisal forms, I asked my colleague with whom I share an office to pray for me, that my appraisal result in promotion. i just spoke to my mum, she asked if I was doing ok and I said "yes o, I hope you guys are praying for me" to which she laughed out loud and said "haba, at this age thats all I do for you people now". I'm sure befor the end of this day which the Lord has granted me, I will ask someone to pray for me, one way or the other, without thinking.

Now this is interesting; and certainly, we should all pray for one another (James 5:16). However, which one of those people you've asked to pray for you is also a "co-mediatrix" and "co-redemptrix"? When we ask why Catholics "pray to" Mary, the usual answer is 'what do you call your pastor or fellow christians praying for you?'

soldee:

But none of these prayers said on my behalf will be equal to or even as powerful as the one my Blessed Mother says for me because I have recourse to her.Not only will I continue to sing her praises but I will tell of her glories everywhere I can. All Hail the Mother of my Redeemer, a Mother Most Loving, Most Chaste, so highly favoured by God.

Good. That is why we've asked that Catholics share why you make that assumption about Mary. If Mary is merely "interceding" for Catholics as we're often told, how come the intercessions of others whom you have asked to "pray for" you are not 'even as powerful' as what you assume about Mary?

Thanks for sharing anyway; but I was wondering if you could also take one step further and explain:

[list][li]why Catholics have taken the divine titles of God and given them to Mary[/li][/list]
[list] such as:
* the "Glory of Israel"
* the "Morning Star"
* the "Helper of the Redeemed" (of "Helper of Christians"[/list]

[list][li]Also why Catholics have over 6000 titles for Mary and yet not so many Catholics can tell how many titles they have for God and Jesus Christ - where have Catholics relegated God to, if they can afford to focus more on Mary?[/li][/list]

[list][li]As well, what do Catholic Bishops mean by calling Mary the SAVIOUR of the people of Rome when it is clear that Christians have ONLY ONE Saviour - the Lord Jesus Christ?[/li][/list]

[list][li]Why the Popes have asked Catholics to look unto Mary and commit all their trust and hopes to her when it is clear that Christians are supposed to be looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith?[/li][/list]

There are others; but my concerns have been Catholics try to share on why they have sort of relegated Christ and God to the background and rather promoted Mary more than we find them focusing on God.

How far?

@ Pilgrim

I know its hard for you to understand that Catholics read the Bible. Did it surprise you that the daily mass readings are lifted directly from the Bible? There's different set of readings for everyday, and no reading is repeated for three years, after which the entire cycle is repeated all over again. Imagine how much Bible the average catholic has covered in his/her lifetime!!!

You quoted the bit about 'staying close to Jesus in Prayer'. When our blessed Mother prays for us, and when we ask for her intercession, we ask her to bring us close to Jesus. Simply because our sinfulness and imperfection is so far away from his sinlessness and perfection.

If you want to approach Jesus full speed ahead in all you blazing glory, go ahead. What I dont understand is why you have a problem with those who are politely requesting Jesus' Mother to pray for them all the days of their lives. I can bet you that our blessed Mother prayed for Jesus all the 33 years he was alive on earth, from the day she was conceived of him, to the day he died in her arms. She prayed all the way.

If Jesus shared the same flesh with his blessed mother, why is it so hard to ascribe holiness to her? I leave you to it.

As for me, I will shout for joy that I live under the mantle of my blessed Mother. Hail, Holy Mary, proudly your children are calling on you. Your graces are unclaimed by another.


Proudly Catholic!!
Catholic for Life!!!!!!!
Glory to Jesus, Honour to Mary!!

Glory to Jesus

Honour to Mary

Just to be sure I'm not quoting Catholics out of context, let me expatiate on the outlines given earlier:

[list][li]Why Catholics have taken the divine titles of God and given them to Mary such as:[/li][/list]

       * the "Glory of Israel"
       * the "Morning Star"
       * the "Helper of the Redeemed" (of "Helper of Christians"


Let's take them one after the other:


[list][li]in Catholicism, Mary is called the "Glory of Israel"[/li][/list]

However, we read that it is God Himself who is known as the "glory of Israel" -

           "And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or have regret,
            for he is not a man, that he should have regret." (ESV).

           (1 Samuel 15:29 . . . KJV and ASV have it as "the Strength of Israel"



[list][li]in Catholicism, Mary is called the "Morning Star"[/li][/list]

However, we read in Revelation 22:16 that it is rather Jesus Christ who is called the "morning star" --

          "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.
           I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."



[list][li]in Catholicism, Mary is called the "Helper of the Redeemed" (of "Helper of Christians"[/li][/list]

Can we compare this with the Bible and see who exactly is the Helper of the Redeemed? See --

"So we say with confidence, “The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid.
What can man do to me?” (Heb 13:6)

'Hear, O LORD, and have mercy upon me: LORD, be thou my helper.'
(Psa. 30:10)

'Behold, God is mine helper: the Lord is with them that uphold my soul.'
(Psa 54:4)


My question, please, is this: why have Catholics taken the divine titles of God and given them to Mary? Today, Mary has over 6,000 titles for worship; but how many titles do Catholics know that the Vatican has reserved for God?

Could you help shed some light? Thank you.

@ Pilgrim

In catholicism, Jesus is not relegated to the background. We cannot focus too much on Mary because she points the way to Jesus. She does nothing of herself but does all for our Lord. Anything done through Mary goes directly to Jesus with the guarantee that there will be no delay or deviation.

Prayer:
O Lord Jesus Christ,
Our Mediator with the Father,
Who has been pleased to appoint your blessed Mother,
As our Mother,
And as our Mediatrix with you,
Mercifully grant that whoever comes to you seeking your favours,
May rejoice to receive all of them through her,
Amen


Proudly Catholic!!
Catholic for Life!!!!!!
Glory to Jesus, Honour to Mary

@soldee,

soldee:

I know its hard for you to understand that Catholics read the Bible. Did it surprise you that the daily mass readings are lifted directly from the Bible? There's different set of readings for everyday, and no reading is repeated for three years, after which the entire cycle is repeated all over again. Imagine how much Bible the average catholic has covered in his/her lifetime!!!

You see why Catholics often read people out of context? If pilgrim.1 supposed that the readings were not "lifted" out of the Bible, I certainly would have asked some questions. But please go back and see if that was the case. How is it that when you have tried discussing, you usually assume things that I never mentioned or argued about?

soldee:

You quoted the bit about 'staying close to Jesus in Prayer'. When our blessed Mother prays for us, and when we ask for her intercession, we ask her to bring us close to Jesus. Simply because our sinfulness and imperfection is so far away from his sinlessness and perfection.

I quoted the part that addresses a desire to stay close to Jesus. What you have assumed in your reply is to try and scoot away from that premise and interpolate it with something else. Besides, you may be okay with that as a Catholic tribal loyalty, and I would simply understand and bear with you. But to suppose that is the same thing as being "Biblical" is far from the truth - and that's why I offered you the few questions above.

soldee:

If you want to approach Jesus full speed ahead in all you blazing glory, go ahead. What I don't understand is why you have a problem with those who are politely requesting Jesus' Mother to pray for them all the days of their lives.

I don't a problem with nobody as such; and I should rather be asking why you have a problem with people asking questions in what you supposed is the same thing as "Christianity", which it simply is NOT - because you haven't given us any answers thereto.

soldee:

I can bet you that our blessed Mother prayed for Jesus all the 33 years he was alive on earth, from the day she was conceived of him, to the day he died in her arms. She prayed all the way.

Please show us from God's WORD rather than "bet" me and assume what you can't defend. At least I offered you John 17 to show that it was Jesus who was praying for us, and not Mary praying for Jesus!

soldee:

If Jesus shared the same flesh with his blessed mother, why is it so hard to ascribe holiness to her? I leave you to it.

Because that is a Catholic doctrine that did not originate with the apostles. The case rather is that Jesus shared in our Humanity, and not the other way round as you have tried to put it. It is not Mary who "became flesh"; but it was Jesus who became flesh and shared in our humanity in order to bring us back to God - see John 1:14 ("the WORD became flesh") and Hebrews 2:14 ("Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same".

soldee:

As for me, I will shout for joy that I live under the mantle of my blessed Mother. Hail, Holy Mary, proudly your children are calling on you. Your graces are unclaimed by another.

It's all well that you do as you please. Just be sure that is what God has revealed in His infallible WORD, and not assume to force that to make it so because you want to "shout" it. Shouting what is "false" does not make it "true".

@soldee,

soldee:

In catholicism, Jesus is not relegated to the background. We cannot focus too much on Mary because she points the way to Jesus. She does nothing of herself but does all for our Lord. Anything done through Mary goes directly to Jesus with the guarantee that there will be no delay or deviation.

I see. Could you please provide answers to the questions I asked? In the Hail Mary prayer, how many "Our Father" do you pray in comparison to "Hail Mary"? And second, how many titles do you know have been reservd for Christ and God in comparison to the over 6,000 titles that Catholics have copped out for Mary? There again, how do you explain the fact that Catholics have taken the divine titles of God and given them to Mary?

Answers please. . . will be much appreciated.

soldee:

Prayer:
O Lord Jesus Christ,
Our Mediator with the Father,
Who has been pleased to appoint your blessed Mother,
As our Mother,
And as our Mediatrix with you,

Now, when you read Luke 6:46, Jesus Himself said "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" In the same vein, soldee, could you please show me where Jesus said that Christians should regard Mary as co-mediatrix or "co-redemptrix"? Is it any use calling Jesus "Lord" and denying His WORD? Could you kindly show me where He appointed Mary as "co-mediatrix"?

Regards.

Pamperme:

Glory to Jesus

Honour to Mary

Please read John 5:23 -- "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him."

Abeg, Pamperme. . you fit show me where Jesus say make we give that same "honour" to Mary? Thank you.

Glory to Jesus


Honour to Mary

I hear - there's a question above. Does Mary share the "honour" that you ascribe to her with what Jesus said in John 5:23?

Glory to Jesus

Honour to Mary

Lol, Pamperme, I hope say you no get difficult to read simple statements? If you no get answers, repeating yourself a million times does not automatically make your statement true.

The Lord Jesus cautioned us to "use not vain repetitions" -- Matthew 6:7. It may help you read that verse carefully.

Enjoy.

"If your brother offends you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector" (Matthew 18:15-17).

@ Pilgrim, I bid you peace.

Glory to Jesus, Honour to Mary

Hi Fellow Catholics,

How often do you adore Jesus in the blessed sacrament? In his real presence. It can seem dicey in our world of today, where everything moves so fast and everything is in digital mode. Are you wondering when you're going to have time to visit the chapel and pray before the blessed sacrament?

Look no further. I present to you LIVE Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. This is not a picture, but a live feed/video. What you see is actually live.

Please save/bookmark this link in your 'favourites'. Spend more time with Jesus.

So Come!, let us adore Him!! Spread the Word too!!!

http://www.savior.org

(Please. note that the 'savior' is spelt without a 'u'.


Proudly Catholic!!
Catholic for Life!!!!!!!
Glory to Jesus, Honour to Mary