goggs:

Yes the Lord hates all these and he says it as it is (note that your quotations are mainly from the old testament). This is the view of where we are coming from, adolatry, killings and the like,  In the new testament it was declared that God has offered a way out for mankind through Christ (2 Corin 5:17).

I would advise that you read the whole verse and context within which these quotations were made and you will see that the admonishment is case specific. Never did Jesus tell Christians, kill so and so; strike their necks until Christianity was established etc. He says to love unconditionally, Love your enemies, Pray for those who persecute you (Mathew 5:44) What depth of humility is this! Even when the bombs struck on Christmas day (25-12-2011) - A DAY THAT WILL LIVE IN INFAMY, the parish priest was admonishing his congregation to pray for peace! That is classical Jesus message (peace and goodwill to all men). if it wasn't the message all these years there probably will be no Nigeria today. But humility and long suffering is a hallmark of Christianity, unfortunately many people are getting fed up. Being a Christian is never easy. Ask Iranian, Saudi, Pakistani, Iraqi and Egyptian Christians

LagosShia:

how do you define "salvation message"?

this is how hate looks like from the Bible:

Psalm 5:4-6
"You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell.The arrogant cannot stand in your presence;you hate all who do wrong.You destroy those who tell lies;bloodthirsty and deceitful men the LORD abhors".

Psalm 11:5
"The LORD examines the righteous,but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates".

Leviticus 20:23
"You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them".

Leviticus 26:30
"I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you.


Romans 9:13
"Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Proverb 6:16-19
"These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."




Malachi 1:2-3,

   2 "I have loved you," says the LORD.
      "But you ask, 'How have you loved us?'
      "Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" the LORD says. "Yet I have loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a  wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals."

LagosShia:

[b]i'm not interested in the reason why.i have being able to show you that even in your bible there is hate and your God also hates.

Islam too does not ask us to strike anyone's neck for it to be established

The noted British historian De Lacy O'Leary wrote:
"History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated."

The famous British historian, Thomas Carlyle, in his book Heroes and Hero worship, refers to this misconception about the spread of Islam: "The sword indeed, but where will you get your sword? Every new opinion, at its starting is precisely in a minority of one; in one man's head alone. There it dwells as yet. One man alone of the whole world believes it, there is one man against all men. That he takes a sword and tries to propagate with that will do little for him. You must get your sword! On the whole, a thing will propagate itself as it can."

Luke 19:27
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.' "

Judek2:


The OT is for the people of old,the NT is for the people of the New world.
Old things has passed away,all things are made new. Old laws has passed away,all things are made new by Jesus Christ.
Just as a wise man would say the past lays foundation and a pillar of support for the present.

Why are you so stagnant?

goggs:

God hates yes. But what does he hate? Read the Chapter in anywhere that hate is mentioned; be it sin, actions or what?

Why shouldnt you be interested in why? You are funny! ''WHY?" is a very important factor. This is why we keep asking ourselves WHY? Its fundamental in Christianity: WHY did God choose to save us not to destroy? WHY are we offered salvation ? WHY? WHY? WHY?

Christianity agrees to questions, unlike Islam that "WHY?" is a taboo! No questions! If you dont ask WHY, how can you learn? "Why" is why science advanced, Why Christianity is not forced on you, You ask WHY and follow your conscience. OK?

CHAI, OK LagoShia, I now know you don't read or research the Quran well enough. Let me help you AGAIN (for the last time!):


(i)When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4

(different translation) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

(ii) Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for[b] persecution is worse than slaughter[/b]. - 2:191 (Yet Christians are persecuted in Saudi, Pakistan and other Islamic countries, What Irony)

(iii) Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. ( - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

(iv) Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you. (No option for the squirmy)

(iv)But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

(v) It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

(vi)When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

(vii) Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60[b] (Contrast with Christ teachings. God loves unbelievers and he don't want them to perish but to have salvation)[/b]

(viii) Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14 (Contrast with Christ teachings. God loves unbelievers and he don't want them to perish but to have salvation)

(ix) Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9 (Contrast with Christ teachings asking his disciples to go to the world preaching with nothing but their staff  and clothing, preaching salvation)

(x) The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51 (How could God's most superior creatures- humans- be the vilest? Ah I don't understand. Please LagoShia explain)

I will not quote people here because it will be based on their prejudiced views. I have thousands, from Mark Gabriel, to Dr. Marwan to so many historians, archaeologist and thinkers who view Islam negatively. But that would hurt you further (for e.g. i start quoting Salman Rushdie or other people who have irrational hate of Islam), that will not be an even debate. My goal is not a hate debate but a rational sane one devoid of calling people cockroaches and the like (as you have) Lets stick to the Bible and the Koran which are the basis for these two faiths.

Look at  the background to the story.He was telling a parable (as I said before, these are stories that carry important messages). Let me reproduce the chapter;

The Parable of the Ten Minas

11 As they heard these things, he proceeded to tell a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem, and because they supposed that the kingdom of God was to appear immediately. 12 He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return. 13 Calling ten of his servants, he gave them ten minas, and said to them, ‘Engage in business until I come.’ 14 But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’ 15 When he returned, having received the kingdom, he ordered these servants to whom he had given the money to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by doing business. 16 The first came before him, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has made ten minas more.’ 17 And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant! Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have authority over ten cities.’ 18 And the second came, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has made five minas.’ 19 And he said to him, ‘And you are to be over five cities.’ 20 Then another came, saying, ‘Lord, here is your mina, which I kept laid away in a handkerchief; 21 for I was afraid of you, because you are a severe man. You take what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.’ 22 He said to him, ‘I will condemn you with your own words, you wicked servant! You knew that I was a severe man, taking what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then did you not put my money in the bank, and at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’ 24 And he said to those who stood by, ‘Take the mina from him, and give it to the one who has the ten minas.’ 25 And they said to him, ‘Lord, he has ten minas!’ 26 ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 27 But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”


Get it?

bashy_demy:

Since old things have passed away, Then what are the verses of OT doing in NT?
Also about tithe what is that also doing in NT? was it not part of the old things that should have passed away?

HOLY QURAN 5:32:
whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely.
(SHOW ME ONE VERSE FROM THE ENTIRE BIBLE LIKE THE ABOVE!)

LagosShia:

^^^^^

you are obviously of the habit of writing unnecessarily and long useless posts with all your words pointing to the same direction as earlier i stated and clarified the issues.

i would like to wipe out all the many words you typed with one verse which you stated.that is the verse christians misunderstand the most:

Mathew 26:52 for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

what does the above verse means?

1.) those that "take up the sword" means offenders and oppressors.
2.) muslims and their wars are taught in the Quran to only be defensive.
3.) Jesus himself does not oppose defending oneself because from the phrase "shall perish with the sword" shows that the oppressors would eventually be defeated by the sword which they raise to oppress others.

educating is a difficult task. So I write to cover all angles. 

Ask any Christian ( In fact anybody that understands English well) the meaning of this. In fact its a common saying that has entered everyday use. In fact let me allow Wikipedia to explain, since you are pretending you dont know what is in common usage

When it comes to swords you are rushing to twist it to follow your meanings in the Koran. Not so fast. Let me let a third party (wikipedia Encyclopedia) answer you - (PS See how the meaning of simple Bible passages confuse you into thinking they are contradictions or preach violence). Here goes:


"Live by the sword, die by the sword" is a saying derived from a Biblical parable to the effect that if you use violence, or other harsh means, against other people, you can expect to have those same means used against you; "You can expect to become a victim of whatever means you use to get what you want. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_by_the_sword,_die_by_the_sword

Go back and read my posts well oh. Don't pretend they are too long. You were the one prompting for answers, the answers come you are complaining ( and dodging I may add)

W
PS Read my answer to your HOLY QURAN 5:32. Dont dodge it.

Judek2:

maybe you didnt see this

Just as a wise man would say the past lays foundation and a pillar of support for the present.

without the OT, there will be no base for the NT.

goggs:

[color=#990000][font=Lucida Sans Unicode][size=11pt]
"Live by the sword, die by the sword" is a saying derived from a Biblical parable to the effect that if you use violence, or other harsh means, against other people, you can expect to have those same means used against you; "You can expect to become a victim of whatever means you use to get what you want. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_by_the_sword,_die_by_the_sword

goggs:

educating is a difficult task. So I write to cover all angles.

Ask any Christian ( In fact anybody that understands English well) the meaning of this. In fact its a common saying that has entered everyday use. In fact let me allow Wikipedia to explain, since you are pretending you dont know what is in common usage

When it comes to swords you are rushing to twist it to follow your meanings in the Koran. Not so fast. Let me let a third party (wikipedia Encyclopedia) answer you - (PS See how the meaning of simple Bible passages confuse you into thinking they are contradictions or preach violence). Here goes:


"Live by the sword, die by the sword" is a saying derived from a Biblical parable to the effect that if you use violence, or other harsh means, against other people, you can expect to have those same means used against you; "You can expect to become a victim of whatever means you use to get what you want. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_by_the_sword,_die_by_the_sword

Go back and read my posts well oh. Don't pretend they are too long. You were the one prompting for answers, the answers come you are complaining ( and dodging I may add)

W
PS Read my answer to your HOLY QURAN 5:32. Dont dodge it.

LagosShia:

^^^^^

you are obviously of the habit of writing unnecessarily and long useless posts with all your words pointing to the same direction as earlier i stated and clarified the issues.

i would like to wipe out all the many words you typed with one verse which you stated.that is the verse christians misunderstand the most:

Mathew 26:52 for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

what does the above verse means?

1.) those that "take up the sword" means offenders and oppressors.
2.) muslims and their wars are taught in the Quran to only be defensive.
3.) Jesus himself does not oppose defending oneself because from the phrase "shall perish with the sword" shows that the oppressors would eventually be defeated by the sword which they raise to oppress others.

LagosShia:

now i want to ask you a questtion:

"live by the sword" means if you use harsh or violent means (oppression) against others you can expect those same means used against you.those who use the same means against the oppressor who lives by the sword,will those also be seen in a bad light? is it allowed to defend oneself against those who "live by the sword"? Jesus told his disciples to buy swords.even if we turn a blind eye and take the parable as harmless and not worth mentioning,Jesus literally asked his disciples to buy swords.

Judek2:

Compare to these verses.
Matt.7:1-2
Judge not,that ye be not judged.
2)for with what judgement ye judge,ye shall be judged:and with what measure ye mete,it shall be measured to you again.

Matt.7:12-
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you,do ye even so to them: For this is the law and the Prophets.

Mark 4:24
And he said to them,take heed what ye hear: With what measure ye mete,it shall be measured to you:and unto you that hear shall more be given.

Luke 6:38
Give,and it shall be given unto you: good measure,pressed down,and shaken together,and running over, shall men give unto your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Isaiah 33:1
Woe to thee that spoilest,and thou wast not spoiled,and dealest treacherously,and they dealt not treacherously with thee! When thou shalt cease to spoil, thou shalt be spoiled; and when thou shalt make an end to deal treacherously,they shall deal treacherously with thee.

These verses just shows that the way you give to others,so shall you recieve also,which is a further explanation on that verse.
I wonder if you have some problem with understanding.

goggs:

You didn't bother about my request that you respond to HOLY QURAN 5:32. You dodged it, again. Please answer.

Ok, I will respond nontheless. I must note that you are jumbling issues

Living by the sword is not only for opression. If you read the explanation it says ". if you use violence, or other harsh means, against other people," so its a broad statement. Whether you strike first or second, Christianity practices pacifism (abhorrence to violence). Anybody running around saying he is fighting for Christianity should open the Bible and show me where Christ asked Christians to fight for anything. Of course people are drifting from faith (Christianity, Islam, Buddist, Hindus etc) and are claiming all sorts of things. That is why there is need for a rebirth, a break from violence, embracing what is good for mankind in the context of what we find ourselves today.

I know that you are looking for justification of the violent passages in the Koran (as per self defence). I have already shown you that passages like Sura 9:29 shows premeditation of violence and also a practical example is how Islam came to West Africa.

I would advice our dear Muslims that there is need to admit the existence of violence in the Koran and try to address it especially for those fringe extremist who thrive on mass murder. During Prophet Muhammed's time, he may have used violence for political and military purposes, but this is so unnecessary right now. So also other religions, even Christianity, where some supposed adherents are getting fed up, backsliding and are starting to talk of retaliation (which is totally forbidden (turn the other cheek, remember?)) should realise that it is wrong.

But really, its up to Muslims to reform themselves for the 21st century.

goggs:

You didn't bother about my request that you respond to HOLY QURAN 5:32. You dodged it, again. Please answer.

Ok, I will respond nontheless. I must note that you are jumbling issues

Living by the sword is not only for opression. If you read the explanation it says ". if you use violence, or other harsh means, against other people," so its a broad statement. Whether you strike first or second, Christianity practices pacifism (abhorrence to violence). Anybody running around saying he is fighting for Christianity should open the Bible and show me where Christ asked Christians to fight for anything. Of course people are drifting from faith (Christianity, Islam, Buddist, Hindus etc) and are claiming all sorts of things. That is why there is need for a rebirth, a break from violence, embracing what is good for mankind in the context of what we find ourselves today.

I know that you are looking for justification of the violent passages in the Koran (as per self defence). I have already shown you that passages like Sura 9:29 shows premeditation of violence and also a practical example is how Islam came to West Africa.

I would advice our dear Muslims that there is need to admit the existence of violence in the Koran and try to address it especially for those fringe extremist who thrive on mass murder. During Prophet Muhammed's time, he may have used violence for political and military purposes, but this is so unnecessary right now. So also other religions, even Christianity, where some supposed adherents are getting fed up, backsliding and are starting to talk of retaliation (which is totally forbidden (turn the other cheek, remember?)) should realise that it is wrong.

But really, its up to Muslims to reform themselves for the 21st century.

Judek2:

You know for yourself that the Bible contains many and lots of wonderful and peaceful messages than any book.
It will just be foolish and unrational to start pasting and argueing on verses that contains the best messages.

In the right sence of the verse, you can kill a soul for a soul,and a soul that is currupt.

Yeah,you're right. .You can never find such verse in the Bible.

Judek2:

maybe you didnt see this

Just as a wise man would say the past lays foundation and a pillar of support for the present.

without the OT, there will be no base for the NT.

Judek2:

If you dont know what salvation message is,or want to know since there is NO SALVATION IN ISLAM,
Go and read about Jesus Christ,and mainly the new tastaments. Read without a rebelious mind.

goggs:

Listing American wars in the Muslim world doesn't invalidate the meaning of live by the sword die by the sword. while I do NOT support some wars America went to, but do yourself a favor and read those links from the very beginning and you will find that there was a reason. even if the use of force is disproportionate. its a case of yatrouble dey sleep yanga go wake am. America doesn't suffer fools gladly.

Seriously, What were you tryin to prove with ya post sef? That the bible passage is wrong?

goggs:

My Sister, I think you are right. i can see the guy is formed. For example, he has total failed to read the response to some of my post (directly to him oh) and is repeating the questions. Chai!

[font=Lucida Sans Unicode][size=11pt]How can the Holy Koran decree upon the Children of Isreal?

A people it asks that Muslim kill? A people described as the vilest of creatures? A people the Koran decrees will burn in HELL?

Read my earlier reply below, since no HUMAN CAN KILL THE SOUL, the Koran is misleading them;

What is a SOUL? According to the Dictionary; The spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal.
A person's moral or emotional nature or sense of identity.

Dude, How can a HUMAN kill a soul? A HUMAN can only kill a man's body, but his Soul can't be killed by a human. Technically this verse is near impossible to be true. Only God can handle a man's SOUL, UNLESS you can use the Quran to prove to me that the SOUL and BODY are one.

Let me infer; if SOUL is what leaves a man's body upon death, then a human can't kill a soul. This means that technically this verse is meant for God himself. If he kills a SOUL, then he has slain mankind entirely (maybe we are all interlinked supernaturally).

I can then deduce that in view of the above, you can say that the Quran asks that you don't kill the SOUL cos you (human) can't kill the SOUL. This makes all verses ordering the killing of Christians, Jews etc VALID!!!! Cos they are asked not to kill the SOUL (Which they can't) but can slay Jews, strike off the heads of Christians. What Irony

aside from being dumb i must commend you for being very funny and putting a smile on my face.

here comes the insults again.   You must be a really interesting fellow to insult those you debate with. Its not that I am concerned, but it leads to be to an interesting preposition; Are you like that? Any way

.have you ever heard people calling someone a "poor soul"? have you ever heard humans saying "dont kill an innocent soul"? so what the Quran refers to there with the word "soul" is figurative referrring to the complete human being and not to the spirit alone. it has nothing to do with the killing of the human soul or its destruction in spiritual form which God alone can do as even in Islam we believe that death is the separation of body and soul and the soul will continue living thereafter while the body decays

even in Islam we believe that death is the separation of body and soul and the soul will continue living thereafter while the body decays

LagosShia:

[color=#000099]all the verses you presented can be unde3rstood in the context of warning people not to offend others and the aggressors.what happens if others do the oppression?it is obvious that those that judge others would be judged by others.so when you offend,others would defend themselves.you said it yourself that what you give others is what you will receive.so when you slap me,expect a slap in return![/colour]

LagosShia:

can never find such a verse in the bible?are you sure what is in the bible is not even the worst?

Numbers 31:17-18
Now kill all the boys (in Midian). And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

LagosShia:

thank you very much for the above that the foundation of the bible is built on barbarism and confusion.