i.chuka:


The "Gift" is inexhaustible.(you dont lose enternal life once you have it,because its Enternal).

You don't loose salvation as far as u're walking in d path of faith and keep living in carnality (Phil 2:12, Rom 6:15-16).

i.chuka:


In the Bible Dogs and Sows refer to the UNSAVED ones.they do not refer to the Saved ones.if a person is a SHEEP,he will never perish.

they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. They have known the way of righteousness, and the holy commandment has been given unto them. If these are not saved, i wonder what is.

"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. " (John 15:5-6).
Let this sayings sink into your ears. Salvation can be lost.

Image123:
they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. They have known the way of righteousness, and the holy commandment has been given unto them. If these are not saved, i wonder what is.

They are "NOMINAL" christains.

Image123: "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. " (John 15:5-6).
Let this sayings sink into your ears. Salvation can be lost.

....."IF A MAN ABIDE NOT IN ME" here He's referring to those that are truly save at first.

i.chuka:


They are "NOMINAL" christains.

We love the English language.

i.chuka:


....."IF A MAN ABIDE NOT IN ME" here He's referring to those that are truly save at first.

are you supporting my position here or what? Hallelujah, let there be Light.
'Those that are truly saved at first'? So it's actually possible to be truly saved at first, what happens at second?

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:22).
Let this sayings sink into your ears. Salvation can be lost.

[quote author=Joagbaje]

Yes a christian can't go to hell but It's possible for someone who had been born again before to end up in hell and be damned . That's why the bible says to work out ones salvation.

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


The Apostle was telling the Hebrew believers in chapter 6 that the repentance of from dead works,the faith in God,the teaching of baptism and of laying of hands,of the resurrection of dead and of enternal judgment,are all words of the beginning of Christ.if they have once been enlightened,once tasted of the heavenly gift,once partake of the Holy Spirit,once tasted the good word of God,and once tasted the powers of the age to come,and HAVE THEN SLIPPED,they cannot lay again the foundation and cannot again be renewed to repentance.
If he have to renew his repentance,that means the Lord Jesus will have to renew His crucifixion.
If there is a fallen and backslidden Christain,who was once Clearly Saved and was clear about God's Salvation,for him to rise up again does not require a fresh start.
There is no possibility of crucifying our Lord Jesus again and putting Him to open shame.
Its impossible to renew your Salvation,once you have it it cant be lost.

italo:

Firstly, you must know that I'm not getting angry and I'm not trying to convince you. But I cannot leave my emotions out of this because you haven't left yours out of it. If you had, you would have understood these verses which are not mine but that of the Holy Spirit. He is the one trying to convince you, not me. So if you're not convinced, well...

Secondly, the passage does not suggest that Paul does not know who was saved and who wasn't. That is what you decided in your head.

St. Paul said (Romans 11: 17,18): 17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches.

He knew they were saved! Would they "share in the nourishing sap from the olive root" if they weren't?

Thirdly, was St. Paul saved when he was writing scripture? I'm sure your answer I yes. Then read what he wrote:

1 Cor 9:24-27:  24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Did you see that?

St. Paul says that all the runners compete, but only one wins the prize. Paul recognizes that if he doesn’t train himself properly in perseverance, he too can become “disqualified.” This proves that St Paul thought he could lose his salvation. You cant argue that Paul wasn’t “saved” when he wrote the Scriptures. So if St. Paul thought that he could lose his salvation, why do you people think that you cannot lose yours?

How very noble of you to invoke the Holy Spirit! Amazing that you are so positive he is working through you. Well, I will also say he is working through me, so I guess we have come to a standstill on that point.

Second, you misunderstand your verse. He says in the very first word "if". That means HE DOESN'T KNOW. He is saying if you are, then you will partake in the nourishment. So your right, IF they weren't saved, they wouldn't partake. You decided something wrong in YOUR head.

I think we understand your last point differently. You are saying that an apostle of Christ, one of the most influential, could possibly fall away from God. God chose them for very important roles, there was no way for them to be disqualified. There is a verse that says God can keep people from falling into sin. If God wants you saved, you will be saved. You act like its up to Paul to earn his salvation and keep it. He never did ANYTHING to earn it. So I will ask my question again that you still haven't answered: How do you lose your salvation if you have done nothing to earn it?

[quote author=bigd4050]

Second, you misunderstand your verse. He says in the very first word "if". That means HE DOESN'T KNOW. He is saying if you are, then you will partake in the nourishment. So your right, IF they weren't saved, they wouldn't partake. You decided something wrong in YOUR head.

The word 'if' here is used to make plain the FACT that if he does not bring his body under subjection by submitting to the Holy Spirit and discipline , he will become a cast away. How simpler can it get than this.

Trying to contort truths to suit your OSAS ( once saved always saved ) doctrine is almost deceptive if you ask me.

I think we understand your last point differently. You are saying that an apostle of Christ, one of the most influential, could possibly fall away from God. God chose them for very important roles, there was no way for them to be disqualified. There is a verse that says God can keep people from falling into sin.

You are almost trying to deny MEN their inherent and god given ability to make decisions independently of GOD's will.

God can only succour those who willingly remain in his Love, people can decide to go back into sin.

You are spreading heresy by insinuating that Man is unable to make a choice. Even Jesus Christ asked God ' to let this cup pass over me ' but 'nevertheless let your will be done '. Here we see our Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus allowing God to overrule his own will.

Paul could have fallen away from the faith like Demas if he loved this present world more than Christ Jesus.

If God wants you saved, you will be saved.

God wants everyone to be saved, to suggest otherwise is blatant falsehood.

"who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." - 1 Timothy 2:4

"For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!" - Ezekiel 18:32

You act like its up to Paul to earn his salvation and keep it. He never did ANYTHING to earn it. So I will ask my question again that you still haven't answered: How do you lose your salvation if you have done nothing to earn it?

Salvation is a free gift indeed, but you can lose it if you go back into sin.

"But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death." - Proverbs 8:36


Stop going round in circles with your logic.

The Soul that sins shall die , read Ezekiel 18 and 36.

bigd
i'll also ask again. HOW DO YOU LOSE YOUR PHYSICAL LIFE, SANITY AND HEALTH IF YOU'VE DONE NOTHING TO EARN IT. How DO YOU LOSE a complete set of teeth if you've DONE NOTHING TO EARN IT?

Righteousness is what we obtain 4rm God thru Christ alone and ds imputed or credited righteousness spurs us into livin a righteouss life. We can never sow into carnality and xperience eternity. Revelations 3 shld nt av bn written in d 1st place then if salvation cannot be lost.

RedReact: Righteousness is what we obtain 4rm God thru Christ alone and ds imputed or credited righteousness spurs us into livin a righteouss life. We can never sow into carnality and xperience eternity. Revelations 3 shld nt av bn written in d 1st place then if salvation cannot be lost.

Amen.

"Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." -
Revelation 21:27

Image123: bigd
How DO YOU LOSE a complete set of teeth if you've DONE NOTHING TO EARN IT?

Good question

Image123: bigd
i'll also ask again. HOW DO YOU LOSE YOUR PHYSICAL LIFE, SANITY AND HEALTH IF YOU'VE DONE NOTHING TO EARN IT. How DO YOU LOSE a complete set of teeth if you've DONE NOTHING TO EARN IT?

Answering a question with a question. Nice one. There is a difference between our earthly bodies and our soul. Our bodies will fade back to dust whether we live righteously or carnally, so I'm not sure where you are going with that.

[quote author=frosbel][/quote]

Frosbel, your attacking quite hard on this. Have I debated you before or why so abrasive?

I agree with your first point. If Paul lives a life of sin, he will become a castaway. However, if he does, he would have never been saved in the first place. Those who have tasted the sweetness of God's grace cannot go back to a life of sin, or they were never truly thankful for God's gift in the first place. That is what I am arguing. If someone falls away from the faith, then they never had faith to begin with.

Second, man does not have a choice. God changes mans heart, not man. Man can make choice, but not when it comes to having faith. The Bible clearly states that we were deaf, blind, and dumb to God and his truth. Do we suddenly make ourselves see then? No, we don't. God changes our hearts, our minds, helps us to see and understand. That is why if God wants you saved, you are saved. You may sin occasionally after that, but its never a practice. That is why when you see people fall away from the faith, its because they never had true faith to begin with. They might serve God for a time, but their true fruit always shows. That is why endurance is such an important factor.

So now that its established that God is the one who opens people's eyes and saves them, why doesn't he do that for everyone? Because God has CHOSEN people. He always has. God never changes, right? So if he wanted EVERYONE saved, why didn't he offer up salvation or knowledge for the other nations around Israel? Because he doesn't want all people saved. He wanted all his CHOSEN people saved. That is why God just ordered Israel to destroy the other nations. This is difficult to understand. I expect a lot of fight back on this. But it all makes sense when you see my paragraph above, which cannot be denied. When God wants someone saved, he changes their heart. When God changes someone's heart, does he do it to no effect? No, that person is saved. The one who says God has changed their heart and falls away a year later is the one who is not saved, nor ever was.

Bigd,
if a xtian looses 4rm faith, probability is der dt he has not been truly saved at all and I also know dt d nature of sin is different 4rm d act of sin. If a xtian wer 2 b committing d act of sin, is his salvation sealed?

bigd4050:
God changes our hearts, our minds, helps us to see and understand. That is why if God wants you saved, you are saved.

Are you saying God wanted Adam & Eve to eat the forbidden fruit? you mean 'using' the serpent to trick dam & Eve was all part of a grand scheme to make them sin and get them out of the garden?

bigd4050:

Answering a question with a question. Nice one. There is a difference between our earthly bodies and our soul. Our bodies will fade back to dust whether we live righteously or carnally, so I'm not sure where you are going with that.

How do you lose your soul, if you've done nothing to earn it?

We have succeeded in showing you that you can lose something that you did nothing to earn, period.

If salvation can't be lost, why was Paul worried about being disqualified? Even though he was "saved" at the time he was writing scripture.

Why did he always "HOPE" for salvation?

How can you be certain, when St. Paul wasn't?

italo:

How do you lose your soul, if you've done nothing to earn it?

We have succeeded in showing you that you can lose something that you did nothing to earn, period.

Tell them

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" (1 Timothy 4:1).
Let these sayings sink into your ears, salvation can be lost.

bigd4050:

Frosbel, your attacking quite hard on this. Have I debated you before or why so abrasive?

I agree with your first point. If Paul lives a life of sin, he will become a castaway. However, if he does, he would have never been saved in the first place. Those who have tasted the sweetness of God's grace cannot go back to a life of sin, or they were never truly thankful for God's gift in the first place. That is what I am arguing. If someone falls away from the faith, then they never had faith to begin with.

[b]Second, man does not have a choice. God changes mans heart, not man. Man can make choice, but not when it comes to having faith. The Bible clearly states that we were deaf, blind, and dumb to God and his truth. Do we suddenly make ourselves see then? No, we don't. God changes our hearts, our minds, helps us to see and understand. That is why if God wants you saved, you are saved. You may sin occasionally after that, but its never a practice. That is why when you see people fall away from the faith, its because they never had true faith to begin with. They might serve God for a time, but their true fruit always shows. That is why endurance is such an important factor.

So now that its established that God is the one who opens people's eyes and saves them, why doesn't he do that for everyone? Because God has CHOSEN people. He always has. God never changes, right? So if he wanted EVERYONE saved, why didn't he offer up salvation or knowledge for the other nations around Israel? Because he doesn't want all people saved. He wanted all his CHOSEN people saved. That is why God just ordered Israel to destroy the other nations. This is difficult to understand. I expect a lot of fight back on this. But it all makes sense when you see my paragraph above, which cannot be denied. When God wants someone saved, he changes their heart. When God changes someone's heart, does he do it to no effect? No, that person is saved. The one who says God has changed their heart and falls away a year later is the one who is not saved, nor ever was[/b].

A very sound post.

Since those who believe are called and chosen and you cannot be saved if you are not called and chosen, it is clear anyone so chosen will NEVER come to condemnation.

frosbel:

Amen.

"Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." -
Revelation 21:27

But you are sure you will enter it, are you not? Upon what basis? On works?

Please tell me.

Joagbaje:

Yes a christian can't go to hell but It's possible for someone who had been born again before to end up in hell and be damned . That's why the bible says to work out ones salvation.

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Remember what paul said Con earning his own salvation.

1 Corinthians 9:27
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. .

Also remember the words of Jesus .

Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I NEVER KNEW you. This does not sound like Christ knew the person at some point in time, does it?

bigd4050:

Frosbel, your attacking quite hard on this. Have I debated you before or why so abrasive?

I agree with your first point. If Paul lives a life of sin, he will become a castaway. However, if he does, he would have never been saved in the first place. Those who have tasted the sweetness of God's grace cannot go back to a life of sin, or they were never truly thankful for God's gift in the first place. That is what I am arguing. If someone falls away from the faith, then they never had faith to begin with.

Second, man does not have a choice. God changes mans heart, not man. Man can make choice, but not when it comes to having faith. The Bible clearly states that we were deaf, blind, and dumb to God and his truth. Do we suddenly make ourselves see then? No, we don't. God changes our hearts, our minds, helps us to see and understand. That is why if God wants you saved, you are saved. You may sin occasionally after that, but its never a practice. That is why when you see people fall away from the faith, its because they never had true faith to begin with. They might serve God for a time, but their true fruit always shows. That is why endurance is such an important factor.

So now that its established that God is the one who opens people's eyes and saves them, why doesn't he do that for everyone? Because God has CHOSEN people. He always has. God never changes, right? So if he wanted EVERYONE saved, why didn't he offer up salvation or knowledge for the other nations around Israel? Because he doesn't want all people saved. He wanted all his CHOSEN people saved. That is why God just ordered Israel to destroy the other nations. This is difficult to understand. I expect a lot of fight back on this. But it all makes sense when you see my paragraph above, which cannot be denied. When God wants someone saved, he changes their heart. When God changes someone's heart, does he do it to no effect? No, that person is saved. The one who says God has changed their heart and falls away a year later is the one who is not saved, nor ever was.

For those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son....and those He predestined,He also called;those He called,He also justified;those He justified,He also glorified.what,then shall we say in response to this?if God is for us,who can be against us?......who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen?it is God justified...Romns8:29-33.
I wonder how those who are called,chosen and justified can lose their Salvation.
@bigd great write up.

@ i.chucka and 5solas...thanks for the support guys. I'm glad I'm not the only one who can see and recognize these truths. They are hard and difficult to understand, and sound harsh, but those that do understand have a deeper relationship with God and are able to live out these truths with more confidence, knowing that God is sovereign and his will is going to be done. Appreciate it guys!

italo:

How do you lose your soul, if you've done nothing to earn it?

We have succeeded in showing you that you can lose something that you did nothing to earn, period.

That is like me saying that God created the universe from nothing. And then you saying "something has never come from nothing, we have this whole world as an example". I get what your trying to say, but when you compare God's nature and salvation, which are not definable by the world, to something material here on this earth, it doesn't work. Sure, you have given a great example to show what your trying to say, but it doesn't even brush up against what I'm saying because we are arguing two different realms. Your logic works here on this earth. I am talking about spiritual things.

Image123: "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" (1 Timothy 4:1).
Let these sayings sink into your ears, salvation can be lost.

If someone ever turns from God, like 5solas (I think it was him, it was a great point) said, God NEVER KNEW THEM. They can "leave faith", but they never really had it to begin with. You can only serve one master. You don't suddenly just switch from serving God to serving flesh. The whole time, the person who departs had some part of their lives that they are unwilling to give up to God, and hold onto that sin. They depart when they longer want to hold up the facade of living righteously. I think about it like this: they were a part of the a church, but then they left the church for a terrible reason...lets say they got corrected on something. If they use some dumb excuse like that to leave, they were never really a part of that church. In bodily presence they were, but not in spirit. Same thing with faith and God.

i.chuka:


For those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son....and those He predestined,He also called;those He called,He also justified;those He justified,He also glorified.what,then shall we say in response to this?if God is for us,who can be against us?......who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen?it is God justified...Romns8:29-33.
I wonder how those who are called,chosen and justified can lose their Salvation.
@bigd great write up.

I wonder also.

italo:

See jamb question! Ok, eternal life means life eternal.

John 3:16 doesn't say that one cannot lose eternal life. Give us another verse!

Romans 8

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or unclothedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

bigd4050:

[b]If someone ever turns from God[b], like 5solas (I think it was him, it was a great point) said, God NEVER KNEW THEM. They can "leave faith", but they never really had it to begin with. You can only serve one master. You don't suddenly just switch from serving God to serving flesh. The whole time, the person who departs had some part of their lives that they are unwilling to give up to God, and hold onto that sin. They depart when they longer want to hold up the facade of living righteously. I think about it like this: they were a part of the a church, but then they left the church for a terrible reason...lets say they got corrected on something. If they use some dumb excuse like that to leave, they were never really a part of that church. In bodily presence they were, but not in spirit. Same thing with faith and God.

I didn't in anyway infer, please read my post again, that such a person ''turned from God''.