Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
Eze 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
Eze 33:14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
Let these sayings sink deeply into your ears, salvation can be lost.

Image123: Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
Eze 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
Eze 33:14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
Let these sayings sink deeply into your ears, salvation can be lost.

Calvinists are 'truth twisters', they will soon twist these precious bible verses to their further confusion.

frosbel:


Calvinists are 'truth twisters', they will soon twist these precious bible verses to their further confusion.

Name calling now? Provide an actual argument please instead of trolling.

Image123: Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
Eze 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
Eze 33:14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
Let these sayings sink deeply into your ears, salvation can be lost.

Good verse, I like it. It doesn't further your argument in any way, unless you would like to actually explain what your trying to say by the verse?

That'd be pretty nice, I think. Thanks.

See how Image continually repeats his assertion, ''salvation can be lost'' as though by that, the assertion is proved.

bigd4050:

Name calling now? Provide an actual argument please instead of trolling.

Trolling

"But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction. We are the faithful ones, whose souls will be saved." - Hebrews 10:39

bigd4050:
And your reasoning doesn't work throughout the context of Christianity.

It works in the 'context' of biblical events. every page turn

bigd4050:
Your saying that because I don't know who God saves or why, that what I think cannot be true.

It is not because you don't know who god saves, i don't expect you know who God saves. If i apply your logic, i'll say you don't even know if you are saved, you can only assumed. Your interpretation (derived from about 3 or 4 verse in the bible) cannot be true because it explains nothing (in the bible).

bigd4050:
If the same reasoning was applied to how God "came to exist", then just because we don't know how God exists...would mean that he doesn't really exist.

The same reasoning cannot be applied here. We are talking about interpretation of texts (letters), not what exist or don't exist.

[size=13pt]^{Hey my sweetheart i didn't know you'll finally join me here after my invitations . ooh , u was really amazed nadege my love okay I'll talk to u @ Club time later ....also i read the later u sent thank u my infernal love . very proud to have u with me here . . .} [/size]

Unitedsatanist: The short answer to this question is yes... they can.

Never deny the power of Satan.

Before you were a Christian... you weren't on his list.

Unitedsatanist: The short answer to this question is yes... they can.

Never deny the power of Satan.

Before you were a Christian... you weren't on his list.

Is that what lucifer sent you and ^^^^ Ogaga4luv to do?
C'mon, i thought he was more bigger than that, he should be ashamed of himself, but i guess he has no conscience, or does he?

Tell lucifer to stay off this forum and stop sending his agents here to decieve innocent souls.

Take that to him!

Image123: "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. " (Matthew 24:22).
If salvation cannot be lost, those days need not be shortened. The elect could well live 969years and not lose nothing.
Let these sayings sink deep in your ears, salvation can be lost,

So shocking.

That you would use a passage that clearly supports the assertion that, ''salvation cannot be lost'', to prove it can.

Everyone can lose your salvation ...
Who out of context biblical passages;
those promoting celibacy neglecting the perfection of divine creation
who pay tithes to their pastors or priests defying the word of God.
who worship idols (images in the churches).
priests that practice pedo.phile
those who lie to recruit souls
who blame everything on the devil and do self-criticism
Who are intolerant of people who practice another religion.
There are millions of ways to lose heaven.

frosbel:



"But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction. We are the faithful ones, whose souls will be saved." - Hebrews 10:39

So shocking.

That you would use a passage that clearly supports the assertion that, ''salvation cannot be lost'', to prove it can.

Tell us who those faithful ones are, ''who believe to the saving of the soul''--Heb. 10:39.

Joagbaje:

Yes a christian can't go to hell but It's possible for someone who had been born again before to end up in hell and be damned . That's why the bible says to work out ones salvation.

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Did Paul then contradict himself when he goes on to say in the same book and chapter:

9 ¶ But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

?

Leave them alone. They say their names are in God's book of life and can never be erased regardless of what they do. Leave them alone.

italo: Leave them alone. They say their names are in God's book of life and can never be erased regardless of what they do. Leave them alone.

Praying? Soliloquizing?

Do you now acknowledge there is such a list?

Yes I do. The list is in your head.

italo: : If salvation can't be lost, why was Paul worried about being disqualified? Even though he was "saved" at the time he was writing scripture.

Why did he always "HOPE" for salvation?

How can you be certain, when St. Paul wasn't?

Sure, he was very worried, in your head!

italo: If salvation can't be lost, why was Paul worried about being disqualified? Even though he was "saved" at the time he was writing scripture.

Why did he always "HOPE" for salvation?

How can you be certain, when St. Paul wasn't?

You don't believe a christian can be saved in this life and yet believe they can lose salvation? It is a question.

Image123:
This your quote is what God predestined us to. Don't add that He predestined us to go to Heaven, or to not lose salvation.

Romns8:29-30,started with God's FOREKNOWLEDGE,which is the beginning of everything.to be marked out(His predestination) is the second step.to be Called is the third step.only after the third step do we have Justification.if we were to lose our Justification and become sinners again,we would put a question mark on God's omniscience..since God foreknew us and mark us out,how can we still perish after we are saved?a person predestined by God can never be thrown into hell and burned like a piece of wood.
It's a simple thing for us to make a decision because we can change so easily.we may change once a day for the 365days of the year.but since God is God,His Foreknowledge and predestination cannot be shaken.He has the Foreknowledge,the Predestination,and the Calling,our Justification is Eternal.God cannot annul Justification without affecting His Foreknowledge,Predestination and Calling.if you take away one ring the other three rings will not stand.whenever our Salvation is lost,God's Foreknowledge,Predestination and Calling are all negated.
In addition Verse30 says "those whom He Justified,these He also Glorified"also He brings those whom He Justified into Glory.the last ring of God's work is Glory.until we are in glory,His work is incomplete.the above verse says those whom He Justified will enter into Glory"UNCONDITIONAL"for there's no condition in the above verse.it is God who Foreknew,it is God who Predestined,it is God who destined us to be like His Son and be conformed to the image of the Son of God,it is God who Called us and Justified us,it is God who will bring us,the Justified ones,into Glory,it is also God who will bring us into the new Heaven and the new Earth to inherit the eternal Glory.

italo: Leave them alone. They say their names are in God's book of life and can never be erased regardless of what they do. Leave them alone.

They don't know for sure if their names are there. A pity they've been predestined to argue for Calvin and still go to hell.

It seems i see where you people are missing it. You're leaving out the fact that every man needs to repent and believe before he can be saved. You jump straight to the salvation part, neglecting the important repentance and belief.

5solas:

Sure, he was very worried, in your head!

1Cor 9:27: No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Question 1: was Paul "saved" at the time he was writing this?

Question 2: why is he taking the pain to "strike a blow to the body"?

Question 3: what would have happened if he didn't bring his body under control?

5solas:

You don't believe a christian can be saved in this life and yet believe they can lose salvation? It is a question.

To answer your question directly, I never said a person cannot be saved in this life.

I know salvation is not a one-time thing. It is a process. You can gain it, but if you don't persevere in the faith, you can lose it.


I Have Been Saved (past event)

Rom. 8:24 - for in this hope we were saved (but, again, why "hope" if salvation is a certainty?)

Eph. 2:5,8 - for by grace you have been saved through faith.

2 Tim. 1:9 - He saved us and called us through grace and not by virtue of our own works outside of His grace.

Titus 3:5 - He saved us in virtue of His own mercy, and not by our deeds.


I Am Being Saved (present event)

1 Cor. 1:18 - for the word of the cross is folly to those perishing, but for to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. Salvation is not a one-time event. It is a process of perseverance through faith, hope and love.

2 Cor. 2:15 - for we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved. Salvation is a continual process.

Phil. 2:12 - we are working out our salvation through fear and trembling. Salvation is an ongoing process.

1 Peter 1:9 - you obtain the salvation of your souls as the outcome of your faith. Working out our salvation in fear and trembling is a lifelong process.


I Will Be Saved (future event)

Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - again, Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. Salvation is a past, present and future event (not a one-time event).

Mark 16:16 – Jesus says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.

Acts 15:11 - we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus.

Rom. 5:9-10 - since we are justified by His blood, we shall be saved.

Rom. 13:11 - salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. How can we be only nearer to something we already have?

1 Cor. 3:15 - he will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Cor. 5:5 - Paul commands the Church to deliver a man to satan, that he will be saved in the day of the Lord.

2 Tim. 2:11-12 - if we endure, we shall also reign with Him. This requires endurance until the end of our lives.

Heb. 9:28 - Jesus will appear a second time to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him.

Now let's see you dodge MY questions.

Image123: It seems i see where you people are missing it. You're leaving out the fact that every man needs to repent and believe before he can be saved. You jump straight to the salvation part, neglecting the important repentance and belief.

I readily admit that you must repent and believe before you are saved. I just think God brings you to a realization of this, not yourself. You don't just suddenly make yourself believe because you own mind "figured out God". There is no way to logically deduce what God has done for us, or who he is.

I think I'm going to switch my mode of operation on the forum. Arguing is not going to work here. People have been debating this for (I'm guessing) centuries, and we aren't going to come to a conclusion on this tiny forum.

I'm going to seek to understand where you guys are coming from instead of rattling off my points, lol. I have a question that I don't know how it would be answered your Image's and italo's point of view. Perhaps they can enlighten me.

From what I have gathered, it seems as if you guys are saying that once we are saved, it is up to us to remain obedient to God in order to be saved. To me, it sounds as if we have to "keep ourselves saved", or save ourselves with our actions. Basically, the responsibility is on us. Is any of this incorrect? If so, how would you put it?

Second, since you believe your salvation is not guaranteed to anyone, what is the limit at which someone is no longer saved? What or how much wickedness must someone do in order to not be saved? Is the line between saved and not saved the same for everyone?

Again, I apologize for being harsh and abrasive in my earlier posts. We are all Christians here, and whether or not we agree on the basis of our salvation, at least it seems like we all strive for a deeper understanding of God, and live our lives to serve Him. I'm going to do my best to keep my tone civil out of respect just for people brave enough to post on here. Basically, I'm going to actually listen to what you guys are saying before I just give off points that I have been waiting to throw out. So take the floor, answer my questions or say any other points you guys have, let's keep the thread organized and respectful.

Image123: Of course, anything can be lost if one is careless. You can lose weight, money, life, sanity, yourself, salvation, anything.

this is if i am the originator of THE salvation. This idea emphasises man's effort against the all complete finished work of the blood.

unphilaz: this is if i am the originator of THE salvation. This idea emphasises man's effort against the all complete finished work of the blood.

That is their problem. They think Christ merely made it probable to ALL and it is up to everyone to actually save themselves by believing. No special grace needed here, grace is available to all!

it is very illogical to me that God having expended his most treasurable possession he has(the life of his Son)to save a man,will let the same man be damned for any justificable reason.i think it is an insult to the blood of the new covenant.Heb 10:10-14.it was a FINISHED WORK.Those of us that are in this new covenant,the emphasis on works in any of its kind is for rewards.1 cor 3:10-15.God's gift are eternal

The Glorification in Rmns8:30 is in Past Tense.God is an eternal God.from God's viewpoint,all those who are Justified have ALREADY been Glorified.maybe,on some side,they still have to wait for a thousand years for there Glorification,but on God's side,in His Purpose and His Plan,it has already become History."And those whom He predestined,these He also called,and those whom He called,these He also justified,and those whom He justified,these He also glorified" we have already been Glorified.the history has already been written,and there is no way to change it.since God has completed the writing of our future history and the future events,He is determined to accomplish it for us.

Image123:
Freewill is not freedom to choose wrong/evil. It is ability to choose. Like the sun has no such ability, earth has no such ability, my cow has no such ability.

i dont understand what you implied by freewill above, freewill if i understand, means choice to choose between two opposing options(good/evil;,Christ/belial etc) but from what i understand you are trying to say its not choosing wrong but choosing right

italo: Romans 5: 1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the HOPE of the glory of God.

If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Saviour, why would St. Paul hope?

reading thru the above verse (Rom 5:2), i checked the strong's concordance of the meaning of HOPE which is NT:1680 to anticipate, usually with pleasure) i.e a confidant expectation of His glory.It is not some double talk paul was emphasising there, and reading in context, one would see that paul was emphasizing that even in the face of trial etc he has a confident expectation of God's glory (good).

bigd4050:

I readily admit that you must repent and believe before you are saved. I just think God brings you to a realization of this, not yourself. You don't just suddenly make yourself believe because you own mind "figured out God". There is no way to logically deduce what God has done for us, or who he is.

I think I'm going to switch my mode of operation on the forum. Arguing is not going to work here. People have been debating this for (I'm guessing) centuries, and we aren't going to come to a conclusion on this tiny forum.

I'm going to seek to understand where you guys are coming from instead of rattling off my points, lol. I have a question that I don't know how it would be answered your Image's and italo's point of view. Perhaps they can enlighten me.

From what I have gathered, it seems as if you guys are saying that once we are saved, it is up to us to remain obedient to God in order to be saved. To me, it sounds as if we have to "keep ourselves saved", or save ourselves with our actions. Basically, the responsibility is on us. Is any of this incorrect? If so, how would you put it?

Second, since you believe your salvation is not guaranteed to anyone, what is the limit at which someone is no longer saved? What or how much wickedness must someone do in order to not be saved? Is the line between saved and not saved the same for everyone?

Again, I apologize for being harsh and abrasive in my earlier posts. We are all Christians here, and whether or not we agree on the basis of our salvation, at least it seems like we all strive for a deeper understanding of God, and live our lives to serve Him. I'm going to do my best to keep my tone civil out of respect just for people brave enough to post on here. Basically, I'm going to actually listen to what you guys are saying before I just give off points that I have been waiting to throw out. So take the floor, answer my questions or say any other points you guys have, let's keep the thread organized and respectful.

For the records:

We are saved by the grace of God but faith and works (which are man's response) are necessary.

Salvation is not a one-time thing as I have demonstrated earlier but a continious process. It is through Baptism that we are saved, just as the Bible says in 1 Ptr 3:20-21 and it is through Baptism, water and the Spirit, that you are "born again," just as the Bible says in John 3:5. Many people erroneously believe that they are saved by making one single act of faith at one single point in time in their lives. Nowhere does Scripture say such a thing. Salvation is a process which begins with our Baptism and continues throughout our lifetimes, just as the Bible teaches us.

There are so many places in Scripture, which talk about how one is "saved", but not one of them says we are saved by one act of faith at just one point in time. As I just mentioned, 1 Ptr 3:20 says we are saved by baptism. In Hebrews 12:14 it says that we will not see the Lord unless we are holy, and that we have to strive for this holiness. In Matthew 6:14-15, it says we must forgive others or we will not be forgiven. Can you attain salvation if God hasn't forgiven you? No! So, our forgiving others is necessary for our salvation.

1 Tim 2:15 says that woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness with modesty. John 6:54 says we will have eternal life by doing something...eating the flesh and drinking the blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. In Matthew 19, verses 16 and 17, Jesus is asked directly what one must do to have eternal life. Did He say, accept me into your heart once and that's it? Or did he say, nothing, just hope that God has chosen you? No! Jesus said, keep the commandments and you will have life.

Paul says in Rom 8:24; that we are being saved, as Paul says in 1 Cor 1:18; and that we will be saved, as Paul says in Rom 5:9-10, provided we persevere and keep our eyes on the prize. Salvation is a process, just as the Bible clearly teaches.

That's my position.

I tell you, If it were a guarantee that anyone who is saved now, will always be saved (forever!) without the possibility of backsliding or becoming apostate; being a true Christian in this world would have been very easy indeed. The way and gate to life wouldn’t have been so narrow (Matt.7:14), all that would have been required of us would be: to repent- believe in Jesus –accept him into our lives-be baptized & then THAT’S IT! We could then go right ahead to live our lives the way WE WANT (good or bad? doesn’t matter, after all we are already saved). In fact, the devil wouldn’t even have been bothering himself fighting & opposing any Christian; because he will know that whoever is saved is lost to his kingdom forever. But this is not the case; instead believers are in a constant battle with the devil, the world and their flesh. This should be enough to tell you that the devil knows he still has a chance of destroying us.
Brethren, you had better work out your salvation with fear & trembling, and stop believing the lies of the devil. Strive to be HOLY, RIGHTEOUS & GODLY in this present world otherwise you will never see God. Amen

Aparche: I tell you, If it were a guarantee that anyone who is saved now, will always be saved (forever!) without the possibility of backsliding or becoming apostate; being a true Christian in this world would have been very easy indeed. The way and gate to life wouldn’t have been so narrow (Matt.7:14), all that would have been required of us would be: to repent- believe in Jesus –accept him into our lives-be baptized & then THAT’S IT! We could then go right ahead to live our lives the way WE WANT (good or bad? doesn’t matter, after all we are already saved). In fact, the devil wouldn’t even have been bothering himself fighting & opposing any Christian; because he will know that whoever is saved is lost to his kingdom forever. But this is not the case; instead believers are in a constant battle with the devil, the world and their flesh. This should be enough to tell you that the devil knows he still has a chance of destroying us.
Brethren, you had better work out your salvation with fear & trembling, and stop believing the lies of the devil. Strive to be HOLY, RIGHTEOUS & GODLY in this present world otherwise you will never see God. Amen

God bless you and may his strength, grace and wisdom see us through our narrow walk on this earth.