Does Jesus Know What Causes Sin? Thank Goodness He Doesn't.

Thank Goodness, no-one really follows the advice (with the exception of some mos-lems countries) of this impostor from Nazareth, or we would have millions of amputated, maimed and eyeless individuals walking our streets. And why would they have been amputated or maimed. Well, because they might have sinned (or feared sinning), and following Jesus's recommendation, one should rather remove the organ that caused one to sin than jeopardise one chances of entering heaven. This is what Mark 9: 39 - 40 states;


39 "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me,
40 for whoever is not against us is for us.
41 I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.
44 where  'their worm does not die,  and the fire is not quenched.'
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.
46 where   'their worm does not die,  and the fire is not quenched.'
47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
48where    " 'their worm does not die,  and the fire is not quenched.'
49 Everyone will be salted with fire.
50"Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with each other."

Why don't we see Christians clamoring for this sort of deterrent for sin? Why are our prisons not filled with amputated, eyeless, brainless individuals? Is there any sense in issuing this advise, if it was not meant literally?

between, in these words, Jesus demonstrated just what an ignoramus he was by not recognising that no other organ but the BRAIN is the centre of thoughts, hence the source of sin. Not arms, legs, eyes, belly, gonads, etc, etc.  So, more appropriately, he should have advised his followers to remove their brains to avert the possibility of sin.

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Some of my other threads


The Dangers Of Religious Fundamentalism To Intellectualism
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110955.msg1929006#msg1929006

Does Jesus Know What Causes Sin? Thank Goodness He Doesn't.
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115292.0.html

The Dreadful Plight Of Apostasy In The Bible
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115114.0.html

Is The European Union Prophesied In The Bible? Is It The Anti-christ?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115053.0.html

Jesus And The Old Laws
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-115190.0.html

What Can Be Said To Be Definitely Known About Jesus?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114935.0.html

Origin Of Christianity And Diabolical Mimicry In Anticipation
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113860.0.html

Hell Past, Hell Present; Which Do You Prefer?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113947.0.html#msg1971669

The Sexual Act And Christian Teaching
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114332.0.html

Scientific Rationalism, Reason And Faith: Which Produces Systematic Knowledge?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114253.0.html

On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus, Part 2:
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113676.0.html

On The Historical Reliability Of The Bible
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114215.0.html

When And From Where Did Jesus Ascend Into Heaven
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113519.0.html

http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114023.0.html#msg1972418
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-114023.0.html#msg1972418

When Was Jesus Born?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113449.0.html

On The Prophesy Of The Virgin Birth Of Jesus 13012dg
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113342.0.html#msg1963529

Was Jesus The Prophesied Messiah? Let's Look At The Evidence.
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113303.0.html

What Are Your Chances Of Being Saved?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113283.0.html

Who Wrote The Gospels And When Were They Written?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113277.0.html#msg1962589

God Selects The Rulers Of Countries; G W Bush, Sadam, Pol Pot, Abacha, Hitler
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113186.0.html#msg1961537

Cannibalism In The Bible: Det 28:53-57, Lev 26:29, Jer 19:9, Ezek 5:10, Lam 4:10
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113181.0.html#msg1961343

What Are The Core Tenets (doctrines, Value And Virtues) Of Christainity?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112990.0.html

Faith-healer And Evangelist, Maurice Cerullo, Investigated
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113871.0.html

What Fate For Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Constantine And Tomás De Torquemada?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112997.0.html#msg1958617

Is The Doctrine Of Trinity Biblical? The Johannine Comma
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112865.0.html#msg1957266

On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 2
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112848.0.html

How Is Salvation Achieved?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-112833.0.html

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles And Some History: Who Was Jesus?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112697.msg1954632#msg1954632

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles: Old Testament Stories
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112679.msg1954426#msg1954426

Human Sacrifice In The Bible: Lev 27: 29 & Judges 11
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112584.msg1953340#msg1953340

Please, Please, Please: Christians - Read Read Read Your Bibles
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112578.msg1953311#msg1953311

When Was Jesus Crucified?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112557.msg1952665#msg1952665

On Conversion To A Religion (christianity Or I-slam)
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112547.msg1952353#msg1952353

Faith-healers And Tele-evangelists
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112398.msg1950528#msg1950528

Where Did Sin Originate?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112377.msg1950291#msg1950291

For The Non-beleivers Only, 1
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112262.msg1948957#msg1948957

Would Christains Be Criminals And Offenders If They Were Not Christians?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112259.msg1948919#msg1948919

On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 1
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112240.msg1948631#msg1948631

Has Atheism Got Principle? No
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112216.msg1948180#msg1948180

It Is Biblical To Have Sex (and Lots Of It) Before Marriage
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112139.msg1946940#msg1946940

Should The Old Testament Laws Be Observed In The Modern Era?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112114.msg1946682#msg1946682

Founding A State or Nation On Religious Principles
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112086.msg1946268#msg1946268

Great Books About Non-belief
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111928.msg1943935#msg1943935

Who Are The Self-declared Non-believer? Resources For You
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111806.msg1942137#msg194111quc02137

Beware of a Simplistic Interpretation of Jesus's 2nd Coming Passages
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111677.msg1939992#msg1939992

What Is The Evidence That The Bible Is The Word Of God?
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-113161.0.html#msg1960928

Archbishop Cause Furore Over Sharia Law In The Uk
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111645.msg1939155#msg1939155

Eminent Christian Scientist (francis Collins) Explains The Evolution Of Humans
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111482.msg1936158#msg1936158

Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111474.msg1936099#msg1936099

Why Biology Is So Important To Our Modern World
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111466.msg1935975#msg1935975

Genesis Vs Genetics
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111227.msg1932655#msg1932655

Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-111474.0.html

Jesus Genealogy
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111222.msg1932616#msg1932616

£300 (three - Hundred Pound Sterling) Essay Competition
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111143.msg1931508#msg1931508

Beware Of Religious Fundamentalism In Your University Campuses
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110965.msg1929160#msg1929160

====================================================================================================

Do you practise Jesus's recommendation? If no, why not?

Thankx for your advice, but alas, not needed. I used to be a xian, until I starting thinking for myself. This stuff of "you need spirituality to understand the bible" only sells to the uncritical" Can you try and explain what the passages I quoted  mean?

Are you suggesting that the notion of Sharia punishment is commendable and was derived from the teachings of Jesus?

@huxley,


This is one of the threads I saw earlier before trying to post a few comments in the other few. The reason why I passed over was the way you phrased your opening remarks:


The emboldened words were yours, and I only highlighted in red to show the deliberate connection you made to those words. If you have already concluded that Jesus was an "impostor from Nazareth" and that He was an "ignoramus", would that be saying you were open to discussions with a serious and friendly attitude?

Remember in one other such threads after several swaps, we both came to the conclusion that "manners, style" etc are as important as the basic considerations for "ground rules" in fruitful discussions. I was not online in the Forum and only a late-comer to the threads when you initially floated them; but it gave me the impression that the possible reason the thread did not bear fruit was because of the concerns expressed above.

Again, it isn't that there are no intelligent Christians to address them (I've read quite a lot of intelligent inputs from them and have been greatly influenced by their styles and insight - you would even see that in the way I almost rank xerox their fonts! ). All the same, I'm fully persuaded that if people are invited to discuss issues in an enabling manner, you would be surprised how many would join in and make it so fruitful on either sides of the bridge. Would you bear that in mind in future correspondence?

Warmly.

Hi there,

I understand your clarifications - well taken on board and we (or, speaking for myself, I) look forward to your adjustments. I enjoyed the sense of humour in the line that you would "loathe to lose the cutting edge of (your) criticisms". 

Anyhow, although some people already hold a mindset when they read the Bible or any document, it would not be fair to "condemn" in the strongest terms before they actually understand what is being stated. Let me give you a small example:

A long-time friend recently blurted it out as we sat over coffee - she told me why she finds the Bible "hard" to digest. Surprisingly, not even the wars in the OT unnerve her! I was surprised when she said it was just one statement that Jesus made in Matthew 19:14 - "But Jesus said, Suffer little children". To save you a long story, she had had a very violent past from non-religious parents as a child (I may be wrong in drawing that connection here, but it's true - I know her). So, in her thinking, any idea of "suffering" of children is a bane that must be condemned with the "strongest possible" force!

As we bantered and I poured my heart and knowledge out to her, I saw she was made up and stiff. Clearly, not only was I losing the war of ideas . . . I had lost the "argument" resoundingly, for someone that stiff!

Another quiet friend (*Lisa, not her real name) who sat and smiled all along as she sipped her cappucino finally broke this stiff girl up. She asked her a simple question: "When you get married, what kind of mother would you be?" Her response? "I DON'T want ANY children!!" she snapped. Then Lisa quipped: "Supposing your mother said that and then killed you at birth because she too did not want any children, would you say she was wicked?" Stunned, our friend blurted out - "What kind of mother would that be? Of course, she'D be worse than a human being!!"

Finally, she saw it - while condemning her own mother, she was no different from that same thing. If it was okay for her not to want any children, then her mother would have been right to not want this girl as a child! The miracle: she softened and wanted to listen. Then Lisa surprised us (we had thought she was a dullard) and only then explained yet again that Matthew 19:14 did not mean that Jesus asked that children be exposed to suffering and inhumanity. Rather, the Greek word means "allow" the children - do not restrain them, and the full quote of that verse was:

"But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

Okay, our friend was not converted there and then, but the last time I enquired, she was getting more relaxed and enjoying the NT.


That is just one example of how people take things out of context and become so stiff with their concepts as to even re-consider a discussion that may help them. In which case, I was seeking an enabling atmospehere which could have been expressed simply as: "would you consider a friendly discourse to explain the problem of the topic?"

Cheers.

Do you know the meaning of the word 'GRACE'? Grace is an unmerited favour of God bestowed on us.
It makes room for forgiveness because he is a merciful God.That was Jesus' mission on earth
HAD IT EVER OCCURED TO YOU THAT NOT EVERY PERSON THAT GOT THEIR HANDS AMPUTATED in those days
were actually guilty?Thank God for Jesus.
How do you explain this word: 'IT IS FINISHED'?

Have you not read in the bible before where it says ',,,,now may the grace our Lord Jesus Christ, the Love of God and
the sweet fellowship of the Holy spirit rest and abide with us now and forever more'? We are under grace, that is the more reason
you should re-dedicate your life to Christ. He paid the price for UHe is waiting for you.
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEART.He loves you.

China is an atheistic, communist and 'reasonable' state that executes people for Tax Evasion. Is this the kind of REASON that huxley wants us to  subscribe to??


The fallen, spiritual soul is the true source of sin. And Jesus was speaking figuratively about a deeper reality.

Unfortunately, secular humanists are trapped in the physical body/universe and cannot see beyond this. What blindness.

@imhotep,

Hi there. I was hoping to read from you one of these days on some of these threads, as I'm a late-comer to them and have enjoyed some contributions from yourself and a few others. Hope you're having a good day?

@huxley,


Lol. Well, what can we say? If you remember, I pointed out that my efforts to reason with her were a complete waste - I had lost the war of ideas to try and help her see reason. However, it was another friend (pseudonymed "Lisa"), whom we thought previously was not so bright, that softened the girl in question with a few thought-provoking words.


True. Quite often people have made up their minds before even considering the issues before them. By extension, even some of us believers sometimes make the mistake of holding prejudiced mindsets before even listening to others who disagree with us (at least, I should speak for myself - because I've been there a few times and consequently learnt my lessons).


Well, if you go back and read again, you'll find that:

(a) The decision to have no children was not condemned - so many people are out there who have made up their minds that they would not like any children at all.

(b) However, the query from *Lisa was not advocating that our friend's mother should have killed her - rather, it was a philosophical query to bring her out of her stiff mindset. The point (at least to me) was to help her see that her animosity expressed with a "I DON'T want ANY children" was not normal - as the only reason that she had for that idea was because she was treated badly as a child. I don't think it made any sense to be without children because one suffered as a child.

Anyway, I enjoyed the warm exchnage of ideas.

@Kola Oloye:

Please my darling Syrup learn from the definition of "Grace," as Kola Oloye puts it above. The did not have to apply a technical analysis to explain what is obvious. Grace, like sign are very straight forward, easy to understand words. It like if one says the color is green, it simply means green, not red or yellow.

You are right that God used Jesus as a grace for his people when he was present with them, considering the may times that they have rebelled thereby rejecting the commandments of God. The same grace if not greater was the mission of Moses on earth, who being a man tongue tied along with his brother as a support and a dead tree twig in hand, destoyed Pharaoh and the hosts of Egypt. Egypt before this was a mighty civilization, which you and me can never deny from the history books.

Was there a greater grace shown to these people more than what was shown to them in the wilderness; eating and drinking without ever working for the bread on the table? read your Bible without the usually biased mind and realise that the grace you are cleverly making the exclusive property of Jesus has been the core essense of prophethood all along.

When I was asked about redemptions, atonements, forgiveness, etc, the questioner simply forgot that the bottomline is that a person is rewarded by being entered into Paradise by the Grace.

How can you measure grace: The christians say that the Jews get their grace (atonement, redemptions, forgiveness, etc of sins), individually by the blood of animals. This process by the view of christendom is not efficient enough. So they say that the one time blood of an innocent man (a lamb, etc they call him), is better. But the fact of the matter is that if it is ever correct, it covers people individually. This means that just being a christian will not guarantee the desired destination; paradise.

But wait, the M.us.lim says that the grace offered to him/her (atonement, redemption, forgiveness, expediation of sin) does not need any sacrifice. No blood of animal, a thing that could be eaten, no tree need be cutdown and definitely no man needs to die. Now tell me among the three groups which one has spent the list of resources to asset this "Grace?" When you know it, you will see that the one has the greatest of grace, a means of ease to enter paradise is the one that does not have to sacrifice anything. That is what you find in I.sl.am.

If everyone that has his hand amputated is not probably guilty, you have two or more situations going on:

The judge and executioner and or witnesses have done miscarriages of justice in where the innocents were punished.
At least it serves as deterrent to some would be evildoers. Remember that some will still engage in evil, regardless.
The one who lost limbs, may acually be forgiven the sins that he/she was never punished for, yet still get rewarded with Paradise. And if one goes by what Jesus said in the verses of the book of Mark (9), there is a need to forgo a part of the body that is prone to doing evil anyhow. I am very interested to know what Jesus meant by verse 49 as quoted by Huxley : Salted by fire? What does it mean other than the obvious, punishment in hellfire.

When it is finished, the One who has authority to say it is God, who never dies and never slumbers.


If you read in the OT verses that you have ued all systems of  religious theories to analyse it to mean Jesus, via a vis Emmanuael, please fix your sight on what God said about Jesus in the Q.u.r'an. This also included the dialogue that will take place in the day of Judgement between God and Jesus son on Mary. That dialogue will tell you who truly has Authority of Grace.

@Kola Oloye:

If your trustee reluctantly returned the asset you put in his trust, which he had signed off on its return, as soon as you ask for it. If you have to sue this trustee to get the Judgement against him to do this, will you consider him a willing trustee, even as he finally returns your asset to you?

Consider that to a trustee who says to you that you should keep your asset in a safe deposit box. You are the only one who has the key and when you returned, you found everything the way you left them. Who is a better trutee, between the two?

What the Bible have done is to make Jesus the reluctant trustee, since they thought him to have sacrificed himself for them. But Jesus, as in the way that is normal to all prophets begged God against his enemies. God accepted his prayer and the process of saving the Body and Soul of Jesus was put in place. We see that Jesus told his disciples to buy sword (today equivance of Stealth bombers), and fought all the way to to the end. At the end he showed displeasure to the Judgement that he was facing. If he was a willing trustee who was participating fulling without any resistance, the acting would have stopped long time. But for sure there should never have been the outburst as in "my God (showing that there is a God that he is not), my God, why have thou forsakened me"?

The second set of trustees included all the prophets, who simply told their communities the rule of the process of keeping their belongings in safety, without future entanglements. But truly Jesus is in this category, without the usual technopyrating (flash razzle dazzle/fireworks) that the christians put to cover this quality of his.

Now, I am of those who follow the way of these prophets, in step on the track of the prophet of my time, from among them. This prophet is Mu.hamm.ad bin Abdallah (AS).
 
 
@Syrup: By the way, we are using English Bible. The word sign in english means that. When we use the Hebrew Bible, you see me taking you on on it. More importantly why would you read the english translation of Arabic Qu.r'an and claim that you know anything about the Q.ur'an?

I am always trying to be simple and direct in my post so that the common people like me may understand it. We are all the audience of every entry we read.

What "laws" did mo'hammad follow? The ancient Jewish laws of the old covenant? Did mu'hammad celebrate the 50th yr jubilee?
Why do you lie so effortlessly?


there is no such definition for sin in the qu'ran, the above are just your own decietful invention.

This is complete rubbish!  What truths are there in the bible?

Does it hold the truth on cosmology, geology, medicine, origins of life, etc.  Wherever it has had the impudence to comment on these matters, it has got it catastrophically wrong.  If you disagree, show evidence where the bible has been right on these matters.

Gentlemen. . .    Heated exchanges from frayed nerves are the very things that I've been trying to outline as not beneficial at all to anyone on either side of the bridge. We can all discuss genially, we trust so, don't we?


Now, my dear huxley, a note of interest in yours:


There are truths in the Bible; and unless one is seeking to deliberately berate other people's values without first considering them, then it so happens that they often sum it quite as tersely.


There are indicators mentioned on some of these issues which you may not have examined carefully. A few pointers are hinted at as to cosmology, for instance, which we understand basically as "The metaphysical study of the origin and nature of the universe". Interestingly, not many scientists are even comfortable with "metaphysical studies", and by disparaging this point, you actually may not have the wide support of those you might be casting your vote for.

What about the "origin of life"? Again, the Bible contains hard facts about this as well - and yes, it all depends on how you embark on a study in search of those answers. What is interesting here to note is that more and more scientists are being persuaded that there must have being a 'Divine' cause for the origin of life - which again is emphasized by those who understand that science cannot discount a Creator in this question.

However, we should understand a basic premise - the Bible was not written as a textbook on Natural science - and "naturalism" is not to be confused for "natural science" (they are not the same). May I remind us all as well: ATHEISM is NOT science.


This must just have been an irrational outburst. The Bible has not got it catastrophically wrong, even though some people might want to believe it so.


I have given a small hint above on cosmology.

Warm regards. . . and keep it cool.