Papist:

My brother i dont disagree with you. But I strongly believe that the rejection by modern protestants of the Mother of God is closely connected to iconoclasm and rejection of Liturgical Worship.

Bobbysworld28:

No one has rejected Mary. She is known and acknowledged but she CANNOT take the place of God, take my prayer to God or even save anyone.

Matt 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

From Jesus statement can u pls define who his mother, brother and sister are?

Papist:

Why do u resort to logical fallacies? Was my post comparing Mary to God or replacing God with Mary? Now tell us does the Bible call Mary the mother of Jesus? Yes or no would do.

Bobbysworld28:

Where is it written that they did?
The burden of proof is on u, not me

Bobbysworld28:

Where is it written that they did?
The burden of proof is on u, not me

Papist:

It is you who made the claim that the Lord Jesus and the Holy Apostles never used images. Care to substantiate your claim with evidence? Or is silence enough evidence for you. However the Christian religion developed from the Jewish religion and everyone educated enough knows that Jews used images in worship. There is my evidence!!! If you need the verses just ask. The problem with Protestant worship is that it is innovative non liturgical feel good music and clapping. This completely eliminates the role of images, incense, holy water etc.

Bobbysworld28:

heb12.22-24.kjv But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

I am yet to see how the scripture above means that u can ask dead saints (there are living saints, sha) to pray for u o! U are inventing a concept alien to the scripture above. The verses above are describing all those in the assembly of the general assembly (including u and i). Which means Mary is there, Paul is there, u r there, I am there, angels and even Jesus.

Since u r in d general assembly, y do u now ask a statue of Mary to talk to God for u? A statue!!! An immovable object! Created by man, haba!

U hv agreed to belittle ur calling and truncate the direct access u have with the Father.

eph3.17-21.kjv That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

The correct knowledge of the love of Christ will make u to be filled with the fulness of God. Dt way, u wont need Mary in ur prayer to God because he has filled u to the brim. Dts y he can do more than u ask according to his power that works in u.

Papist:

My brother i dont disagree with you. But I strongly believe that the rejection by modern protestants of the Mother of God is closely connected to iconoclasm and rejection of Liturgical Worship.

Ubenedictus:

that my dear is the exact passage that informs you that you are in communion not only with God but also with me and with mary and with peter and paul.

We are all ONE great and beautiful assembly, that is the reason why d same way i ask u to pray for me so also i can ask paul and peter and mary to pray for me. It is one assembly, one assembly that encompasses both heaven and earth, both the livin on earth, the saints and angels in heaven and God as our Father.

If i can ask u to pray for me then i can also ask paul to pray for be because we are all in the same assembly.

Useless u are tellin me it is a sin to ask your brethren for prayers.




i hate to continously repeat myself!

I previously said and i repeat, i donot pray to an image!!! That would be a sin becos statues cannot hear! I like the Isrealites in scripture pray before an image, not to d statue but before d statue. There is a difference.

I hope you do not continously repeat an accusation that i have clearly denied.



this is a fallacy.

So when you came to know God you stop asking your brethren for prayers? Are you more rightous than st paul who even after envanGlisinG many cities still continue to request the prayers of others?


The use of intercession never truncates direct access to the father, it shows that God has given us an opportunity to participate in the wellbeiGn of our brethren.

Bobbysworld28:

How else can u describe bowing down in front of a statue of Mary and making supplications to it?

Or d utterly distasteful scene of block rosary I see everyday un which children kneel down in front of a picture and statue of Mary and recite for hours in honour of Mary. Or bowing down to the blessed sacrament.
Please, let us get it real here!

Ubenedictus:


i repeat no right thinkinG Catholic makes supplication to images!

Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the
instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three- dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.
If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" of which they accuse Catholics. But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but
he doesn’t ban the making of images.



so my dear which of these is the idolatry you are talkin about?

Trailblazer1:
After reading through every post on this thread, I now deem it fit to comment on this juncture.

@bobbysworld28 I covet your wisdom.
The wisdom of God in you through the knowledge and understanding of his word has shut the mouth of the naysayers.
Jesus said in
Luke 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

You've asked so many unanswered questions which Ubenedictus and others could not oppose but intelligently dodged it.

If at all they have a conscience, they should be in a sober reflection on all the revelations on this thread.

You've proven them wrong both in logic and through the word that we don't need any proxy to God.

My prayer is for the Knowledge of God to full this world as waters cover the sea
Shalom.

Bobbysworld28:

Judaism had a temple, in christianity u r d temple
Judaism involved physical circumsicion, in christianity u talk about circumsicion of the heart
Judaism involved sacrifice of lambs continually, but Jesus is once and for all sacrifice in christianity
Judaism had priests from a certain tribe, but we are all priests in christianity.

I can go on and on. Can u see d fundamental shift and difference?
I said the burden of proof is on u because Jesus evidently went against Judaism by healing on the sabbath (and declaring himself lord of the sabbath), forgiving the prostitute (against Judaism too) etc. So much so dt they had to conspire against his death.
Can u see that christianity is not Judaism? Good!
In all these things however, he NEVER used symbols or bowed to any statue. Instead Jesus showed us a glorious relationship with the father.
Pls see his last instruction before leaving: mrk16.15-18.kjv And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

I am pretty sure dt if he wanted u to bow to statues and pray to Mary or saints or angels or inanimate objects, he would surely have mentioned it, wouldn't he?

Shalom

Bobbysworld28:

I refer u to ur saviour and master
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Papist:

Do you do the will of the Father? I know Mary did. You only need to look to her fiat mihi (behold i'm the handmaiden...). Having said that i will ask again. Does the Bible call Jesus the Son of Mary?

Bobbysworld28:

I am very sure u do not have comprehension problems. The way, the truth and the life has shown you the definition and answer to your question, so what more do u want me to answer? Since she did d will of God, YES!
I do the will of the Father so I am Jesus' brother and a joint- heir with him!
I am even a partaker of his divine nature
2pe1.3-4.kjv According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Papist:

How arrogant!!! You mean your will is totally conformed to the will of the father? There are no sinful desires in you?

Bobbysworld28:

Paul requested prayers of other brethren. Show me a scripture where he asked stephen or other dead christians to pray for him.

Btw, u say dt u pray before an image and not to d image, what does dt even mean? Like I am chatting before u and not with u now? Like d children of Israel were dancing before d golden calf but not to it? Like shadrach, meshach and abednego did not bow to or before? Very amusing, this point of view. Unfortunately it is pointless. U bow before an image to pray like Yoruba's bow before their elders and u say it is not bowing to?
Please critically review this stance and weed out d inherent absurdities.

Bobbysworld28:

Uben, my dear friend!
So kneeling down before a statue is for recollection? Honestly, the utter absurdity of that statement makes me cringe!

Bowing down to, before an image, elevating pastors/god of men unduly, etc is Idolatry.

When u r to pray, kindly pray to d all-seeing Father in secret as Our Master Jesus has commanded
mat6.5-8.kjv And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Kindly refrain from referring to me as Protestant. What am I protesting? D divinity of Christ? I am christian, dts all

Trailblazer1:
After reading through every post on this thread, I now deem it fit to comment on this juncture.

@bobbysworld28 I covet your wisdom.
The wisdom of God in you through the knowledge and understanding of his word has shut the mouth of the naysayers.
Jesus said in
Luke 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

You've asked so many unanswered questions which Ubenedictus and others could not oppose but intelligently dodged it.

If at all they have a conscience, they should be in a sober reflection on all the revelations on this thread.

You've proven them wrong both in logic and through the word that we don't need any proxy to God.

My prayer is for the Knowledge of God to full this world as waters cover the sea
Shalom.

Papist:

Does God change? Or is He unchangeable? Does He regard one act as holy today and then regard it as evil tomorrow?

Ubenedictus:


It will only make you cringe if you haven't been reading your bible well. Because that is the exact function of images. Why was the image of a cherubim in the temple? Is it not To remind all and sundry that they were before the prescence of the almighty God? When they kneel in the temple were they worshipping the cherubim or acknowledging the prescence of God in their midst?

What is absurd there? The bible shows us the right way to use images! I am surprised you are simply rejecting it even though i already cleared the air that no one prays to images or adores them. I repeat my previous question, do you sin when your bible is in front of you and you kneel down to pray?

if bowing infront of any image is a sin then everybody in the bible who worshipped in the Jerusalem temple or before the ark of d covenant are all idol worshipper, i hope you know the list of people? From moses to paul who worship in the temple of before the ark?

I also do not believe in elevating pastors unduly, i believe all who work in the lord's vineyard should have their respect but i agree that it is a sin to give them the place of God or the reverence due to God alone.

i hope you are aware that the passage above isn't against asking others to pray for you?



my dear,
I am not the maker of English language, I only use words according to the colloquial usuage, members of groups that arose from the revolution of Martin Luther are called protestants because one of the aims of the revolution was to protest against the catholic church. You can check a dictionary, it is a normal english word.

Ubenedictus:


My Dear,
I am aware you are happy that bobbysworld28 is defending a position you hold, i understand that you wished to wish him well and thank God with him, BUT it is only right that you do that is a respectful manner. All bobbysworld28's post on the thread has a response, i find it disrespectful that you accuse me by name of dodging questions when i have personally made a response to each and every of his post directed to me even though such response is not madatory. I take exception to your bolded accusation that seems to question my honesty by insulting my conscience.

I hold I view different from yours, one that has been held by Christian for 2000yrs, I have a right to respectfully disagree with your and his accessment without concealed insults and questions to my honesty.

Have a beautiful day.

Ubenedictus:


My Dear,
I am aware you are happy that bobbysworld28 is defending a position you hold, i understand that you wished to wish him well and thank God with him, BUT it is only right that you do that is a respectful manner. All bobbysworld28's post on the thread has a response, i find it disrespectful that you accuse me by name of dodging questions when i have personally made a response to each and every of his post directed to me even though such response is not madatory. I take exception to your bolded accusation that seems to question my honesty by insulting my conscience.

I hold I view different from yours, one that has been held by Christian for 2000yrs, I have a right to respectfully disagree with your and his accessment without concealed insults and questions to my honesty.

What is absurd there? The bible shows us the right way to use images! I am surprised you are simply rejecting it even though i already cleared the air that no one prays to images or adores them. I repeat my previous question, do you sin when your bible is in front of you and you kneel down to pray?

Bowing down to, before an image, elevating pastors/god of men unduly, etc is Idolatry.
if bowing infront of any image is a sin then everybody in the bible who worshipped in the Jerusalem temple or before the ark of d covenant are all idol worshipper, i hope you know the list of people? From moses to paul who worship in the temple of before the ark?

Bobbysworld28:

Unless u can actually show documented evidence dt Jesus knelt in front of a statue to pray to God, I am afraid u r only presenting conjectures. So he was a Jew and went to d temple? Does dt mean he knelt before a statue? Statue of who? Did he also pray to Mary? Or Abraham? Or Moses?
Get out of d mentality that u can be an idolater and it is ok with God, neither can u talk to Mary to plead with God on ur behalf as though u hv limited access to God

Trailblazer1:


Sorry dear, I didn't mean to insult you but rather appeal to your conscience. My cause will not be noble if I resort to insults.

I don't like to argue cos it can never help you to win a soul, it rather makes a sinner to become defensive and hardened. I only subscribe to correcting an error with a fact through the Word of God, hence my approval of Bobbysworld28

permit me to quote you

Your logic in your first paragraph is skewed because you didn't quote where Jesus or Paul used an image. Sorry to say.

Going by your 2nd paragraph, I suffice to say that you still belong to the old Testament(covenant). Let me help you by quoting from the scriptures

Hebrew 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Has Mary and other saints taken over the duty of Jesus?

Bobbysworld28:

You hv thrown the bait, I will bite. Suppose I say let us pray:
Hail Mary, full of grace...
Now who is d object of ur 'prayer'?
Mary of course
Contrast that with Jesus' instruction:
mat6.9.kjv After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Luke 6:12

One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God.


Luke 22:41-44

He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.

John 11:41-42

So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, "Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me."

John 17:1-26

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.

Hebrews 5:7

During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.


Now see Paul's example:
eph1.16-17.kjv Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

php1.9.kjv And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;

col1.3.kjv We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

See Peter:
1pe1.3.kjv Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us

John:
2jn1.3.kjv Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the

U will agree with me dt the pattern is simple. Prayer is to God ALONE.

BTW, I hope u understand dt hail mary is a greeting. It has no place in prayer. I will deal with dt line of thought later.
Also, if u insist on praying TO dead brethren, spare a thought that after Stephen died no one prayed to him.

U dont even need to bother asking Jesus, d way is open straight to the Father:
jhn16.23.kjv And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

I know it is difficult for ur indoctrinated mind to accept free access to the Father but I urge u to:

gal5.1.kjv Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Ubenedictus:


oh so you have suddenly forgotten that there is a image of a cherubim in the holies of holies? Or you are simply unaware that the isrealite face the towards that exact position?

So you think when Jesus went to the temple which he said is "a house of prayer" he didn't pray but went there to play and dance right?

If you suddenly became ignorant of such salient points then heck this discussion is going no where.

You simply think it is alright to accuse of idolatry people who use images in accordance with biblicaal example.

Trailblazer1:
Like I said earlier, argument only makes a man of different view hardened and defensive of his views.
If Jesus and all the holy apostles who are an example unto us didn't call on any dead believer to pray or interceed for them why should the catholic church invent this unbiblical practice?

Do we follow the apostolic practices or the invented Catholic tradition?
If you think Mary's motherhood will persuade God to Change his mind towards you maybe you should try EVE the mother of all mankind

Even the bible says "ye are gods".

At the death of Christ, the veil of the temple which covers the Holies of holies, preventing all and sundry from Gods symbolic presence in the ark of covenant was rented(torn), giving all and sundry an unlimited access into Gods presence.
The only condition was stated by Jesus when he said "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one cometh unto the father but by me" NB: Mary was never in the context. Why should I trade this open cheque given to me through the death of Christ by engaging Mary? If I needed Mary to intercede for me as practised by the old Testament priests, then I don't need Christ and his death would be in vain.

I urge you my dear brethren with:
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Bobbysworld28:

Bros, only d high priest goes into the holy of holies once in a year. Stop carrying on as though everyone had access to it.
I have esteemed u highly on a previous thread but on this one, u r grasping at straws. Jesus did not use images and u hv been unable to disprove this fact with one verse. I showed u severally hw he prayed and where he prayed. There was no rosary neither was there a scapula.
He did not recite pre-written prayers rather he showed a continuos communication line between him and the Father. If this is difficult to agree to, I will allow the Holy Spirit to clarify to u.

Furthermore, there is nothing absolutely wrong with intercessory prayer at all. When however u cede ur priestly function of communicating directly with God and depend absolutely of intercession, there is a problem. Furthermore, while Paul asked the brethren to pray for him, throughout the whole Bible we cannot find a place where departed brethren have or can interceed for anyone. Therefore using this as an excuse is quite incredible if not utterly ridiculous.

It is obvious we are both entrenched on our stance but I urge u to carefully weigh what has been said and present an argument that is beyond circumstancial and not a figment of an overactive imagination. I am very aware of ur brilliance and the depth of ur cognitive reasoning.
Shalom